Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

sweendogy · August 2013

Not the best responce I crosses shopped the accord vs s4 - 2 cars which are 30 grand apart at the start. Congrats on the s4 but the counter wow really.
Forced into a safety feature - did you also delete the seatbelt for the "weight savings? "

"Audi got my money" hahah

Best of luck- lets not back into anything yah hear.

Nuf said....

andres3 · August 2013

Yes, they are nearly 30K apart; however I was cross shopping due to possibility of:

1) keeping my souped up modified A3 for the track toy and beat it to death until it dies at some point, and buy something economical, reliable, and comfortable

or

2) get a new car that can do it all (be tracked), and be a nice luxurious daily driver at the same time.

While the Accord passed the daily driver test, it could not be tracked. Not even a 280 HP FWD version could legitimately be tracked. That didn't stop me from thinking about option 1 being a possible route to take though.

The TL-SH-AWD Tech package has the back up cam, probably why it costs $3,500 for the Tech option that has some things I liked, but at that added price the S4 seemed like more bang for the buck to me. The TL-SH-AWD needed to be about $2K less with the tech package to steal a deal from me; not having a back up cam gets them partly there.

andres3 · August 2013

Are you really comparing a seat belt to a back up camera?

The seat belt is in use every second you are in the car (or close to it). The back up camera only when you are in reverse.

I'd say I spend less than 1% of my time in a car with the gear selector in reverse.

sweendogy · August 2013

You didn't pick up the sarcasm?

The argument you present is very weak - I understand you not wanting to pay extra for ala cart options and "Audi has your money" but like I stated before the accord which can be had for less then 20 grand has it standard- no options - no money needed to add.(true car says you can get a manual sport for 21,6 btw) Sure some cost is passed to customer- "A camera adds $58 to $203 to the cost of a car or truck, depending on whether the vehicle already has a video display, according to a NHTSA study from 2010." The weight issue - really- how much we talking. 30lbs? Do you know there is legislation to have it mandatory on all new cars in the near future, so lucky you got the S4 this year.

Better engage the quatro because you have a couple of wheels spinning.

Nuff said

Drive fast, take chances

fedlawman · August 2013

"ABS has been used countless times though; sometimes just for fun in an empty parking lot."

How do you have fun WITH anti-lock brakes? LOL...

tlong · August 2013

You didn't pick up the sarcasm?

Just a comment - sarcasm doesn't always transmit very well to a text medium.

sweendogy · August 2013

Very true but "Forced into a safety feature - did you also delete the seatbelt for the "weight savings? "

Delete seatbelt pretty clear where I was going

kmur · August 2013

for when you are forced to valet park. Valet parkers are always backing cars into spaces, and in a massive hurry. Helps prevent all kinds of annoying bumper dings.

I agree that it is nice to have it as an option rather than forced on you. I remember when you could order a car without power locks and windows.

m6user · August 2013

Rear windows have gotten smaller and the rear decks much higher due to increased passenger safety regs for rear collision. This had made the view out the back window much harder to see short objects(kids, dogs, fire hydrants, etc). There are many kids killed each year due to people backing up vehicles hence the rear cameras. Many people are looking at them like they are just convenience features like power windows. They aren't, they are meant to save lives, not to preclude a "ding" to your bumper. Weight?? Probably less than a lb. once you've already got the big screen for your nav or radio. Stop eating fries for a week and you'll save that one pound a rear camera will cost you.

ivan_99 · August 2013

Stop eating fries for a week and you'll save that one pound a rear camera will cost you

heh

m6user · August 2013

I include myself in the comment about eating fries.

andres3 · August 2013

Unless the camera is wireless, I bet there's way more than one pound involved in adding a camera.

Saving lives? As one clever poster put it, I already have that feature, it's called looking through your windows and where you are going, and into your mirrors; being aware of your surroundings.

What happens when someone with a back up camera kills a kid or dog because they back up into it? Just because there is a TV screen in the middle console doesn't mean I have to look at it.

I'm sure it has already happened numerous times.

Has anyone here ever actually used their back up cam, and after using their eyes (turning your head to look back), and then looked at the screen and seen something they missed?

andres3 · August 2013

$58 to $203 dollars in cost probably translates into $116 to $406 dollars in price.

If you like it so much, why don't you offer to pay for it on all your neighbors and friends' cars?

30lbs here, 30lbs there, soon you have 4,000 lb compact cars!

ivan_99 · August 2013

I remember a few years ago, I think it was Mazda RX8, advertised their weight savings measures...such as drilled pedals.

While they looked cool...I thought that those few ounces wouldn't help much...especially given the huge weight disparity between me and the 'average' person

m6user · August 2013

Yeah. low voltage wire weighs a lot. Are you for real? A camera and mounting probably weighs half a lb. and the wire another half a pound or so. Ok, maybe the whole thing weighs two lbs. You're right, that would like cut .000001 off your 0-60 time.

As far as saving lives, yeah I think it can save lives. How many does it have to save before you would consider it? I have a p/u that I back out of my driveway and in my neighborhood I have a lot of rugrats running up and down the sidewalk I back through on their big wheels, etc. I check, double check and triplecheck all my mirrors and stop a couple of times when backing out. A rearview camera would make it a lot easier to see right down behind me. It would make it safer, easier and much quicker to back out of my driveway. I have a backup camera on my new Acura and it works great. Didn't care for it all that much at first but now that I've gotten use to using it I like it a lot. Do I rely on it entirely.....of course not. Your comments seem pretty extreme. And in answer to your last question. No, I haven't. Do you have any data that suggests this happens a lot?

ivan_99 · August 2013

Just because there is a TV screen in the middle console doesn't mean I have to look at it.

My wife has the backup camera and backed up into a Bentley Continental GT. I used to think the auto-braking system were really lame...but now see their usefulness.

sweendogy · August 2013

You have hit rock bottom with the responses. Sorry man, this has "leader ad" defeat written all over it- you should do a little research on the benefits of rear camera, no one is saying they take the place of common sense driver but as an aid to save lives they cannot be ignored. - and as of now no one will force you to have one- but time will come like seatbelts and airbags where they will be mandatory in the states on new cars.

Drive fast, take chances.

igozoomzoom · August 2013

I traded in a 2007 Explorer on a 2012 Mazda CX-9 last year. The CX-9 came with a standard Rearview Backup Camera. The Explorer had Rear Park Assist (Sonar) that would beep when it deetected an obstacle and the frequency of the beeps would increase as you got closer to it.

Initially, I thought the CX-9's camera would be useless. After nine months, I've discovered that it's actually DANGEROUS! If I'm looking at the display in the dash as I back up, I lose most/all peripheral vision to my left side and don't see oncoming vehicles. I just ignore it now and use my mirrors and look over my shoulder instead....

Mazda added the Rear Backup Sensors and a feature called Rear Cross Traffic Alert to the the 2013 model. I bought my 2012 model barely a month before the 2013 was released....the story of my llife!

The Rear Cross Traffic Alert is actually a very interesting and useful feature, IMO. Mazda was one of the first companies to install a Blind Spot Monitoring (BSM) system. It was introduced on the 2008 model on the high-end Grand Touring trim level. When I bought my 2012, I chose the Grand Touring because of the 20" wheels and chrome door handles (sad, but true) and it came with a lot of other features ranging from Blind Spot Monitoring to Rain-Sensing Wipers. At worst, I planned to turn off anything that I didn't like or annoyed me.

The BSM, in particular, sounded ridiculous to me. I figured it was just a case of using technology for technology's sake and nothing more. After nine months and 13k miles living with it, I don't think I'll ever buy another vehicle without it!

I've always thought that blind spots only existed because the vast majority of drivers have no idea how to properly adjust their mirrors. But it turns out that a ful-size CUV/SUV (such as my CX-9) can have hidden spots at the rear corners that I can't see no matter how my mirrors are adjusted. I don't think the BSM or any other techno feature should be trusted 100% and replace common sense and paying attention behind the wheel, but I now see that they can work in conjunction with those.

In my CX-9, when a vehicle is detected by one of the cameras mounted under the rear bumper on both sides, a yellow warning symbol lights up in the top corner of the mirror on that side of the car. If I signal a lane change while a vehicle is detected, a loud series of warning beeps and flashing light on the instrument panel lets me know that someone is back there.

Whenever I'm changing lanes, I always do a quick over the shoulder glance just to be certain that it's clear and the BSM doesn't change that. But even when I have no intention of changing lanes, I find it very useful to always know what's going all around me at all times. Those little yellow warning lights on the mirrors make sure that I always know who or what is around me and I recently discovered that having that knowledge can prevent a serious acccident!

I was driving on I-75 North in Metro Atlanta a few weeks ago following a truck loaded with tree stumps and limbs. With no warning, one of those massive oak stumps tumbled right off the back of the truck and I was going 75mph just one hundred feet or so behind it. I reflexively swerved and avoided it, but swerved to the right rather than the left which woudl have my instinct. But I went to the right because 10-15 seconds earlier, I noticed the BSM warning light on my driver's side mirror in my peripheral vision. Without BSM, I would have went to the left and hit that vehicle!

That experience gave me an ever higher level of appreciation for BSM. It also made me very thankful that I was driving a CX-9 instead of my previous Explorer or most new SUVs of similr size. I don't think anything else could have handled a high-speed emergency maneuver like that without losing control....Zoom, Zoom!

Back to the Rear Cross Traffic Alert feature I mentioned earlier....the BSM cameras scan for oncomoing vehicles when the vehicle is in Reverse and alerts you if it detects anything. For backing out of blind parking spots, it's a god-send. I wish my 2012 had it.

But there are many new 'safety' features showing up on new cars that are way 'over the top'! One of my favorites is on the 2014 Mazda6 known by the acronym FOW. FOW stands for Forward Obstruction Warning, which uses laser sensors mounted behind the front grille to scan the road ahead for obstacles (cars, people, debris) and alerts the driver if it detects something. Every car I've owned, starting way back with my '85 CRX has featured FOW also- it's called a WINDSHIELD!!! You look out of it and, if something is in your way, you stop or go around it....problem solved!

Mazda takes it even further, though. If the FOW system doesn't think the driver has time to respond or no evasive action is taken based on the warning, the system will cut the throttle and apply full braking force automatically!

If you need a car to do all of that for you, you're too dumb or too lazy to drive! The same goes for freakin' Rain-Sensing Wipers....

andys120 · August 2013

The same goes for freakin' Rain-Sensing Wipers

I couldn't disagree more, it hardly ever rains at a steady pace and the rain sensor allows you to concentrate on driving instead of having to constantly diddle w the wiper speeds.

kmur · August 2013

Kids are run over because the people backing up WERE NOT PAYING ATTENTION. Texting, putting on makeup, picking the nose, playing with the radio, what have you. What makes you think these people are going to be bothered to look at the backup camera?

kyfdx · August 2013

Are getting to be standard equipment on commercial vehicles... so, the insurance companies think they are useful.

I really like them for parallel parking. Being able to put the car within one inch of the car behind me translates into one less positioning maneuver, getting into a tight space.. It's also good for backing into spaces in parking lots.. I can put it right on the rear line, if I choose...

igozoomzoom · August 2013

Let me narrow it down rather than making a blanket statement that all Rain-Sensing Wipers are ridiculous and useless....

The way that Mazda has implemented Rain-Sensing Wipers on my 2012 CX-9 Grand Touring is ridiculous and useless!

The INTERMITTENT position on the wiper control stalk is replaced with the AUTO setting. But there is still a manually adjustable dial to increase/decrease the speed of the wipers just like on every other car! The Rain-Sensor only activates the ON/OFF function automatically, it does not modify the speed of the wipers to correspond with how light/heavy it's raining!

igozoomzoom · August 2013

I haven't had to parallel park here in Georgia in at least 10 years or more....I honestly can't remember ever doing it! But when I visit my cousin in Los Angeles, I always end up parallel parking all the time (especially in Pasadena)! She has an '08 Lexus GX470 and it side mirrors tilt down in Reverse along with the Backup Camera coming on and it's actually very handy. If nothing else, it keeps me from curbing the chrome wheels!

m6user · August 2013

What a blanket statement and pretty silly too. Do you have any proof of what you're saying? I ran over a small Weber grill that my wife had conveniently placed right behind my car one time. Could have been a small child and I was PAYING ATTENTION but absolutely could not see it in any of my three mirrors or by cranking my head around. Just because you think you are perfect doesn't mean you could never make a mistake or see something right at your bumper. Try placing something very short right behind your car and see if you can see it in your mirrors or by turning your head. I think you'll see where a camera could be useful IN CONJUNCTION with mirrors, etc.

sweendogy · August 2013

Oh, did the weber make it? Best grills on earth.

ivan_99 · August 2013

I had something very similar happen except with a small child (no body was hurt).

I was in our mini-van that has rear-sonar. We were leaving a shopping center and after all the kids finally got in and were strapped up I looked all around and put it in reverse...I got the loud solid tone. I put it back in park and waited and a small child walked by...they were just walking into the store ahead of their parents and stopped to wait...

m6user · August 2013

Things happen, a back-up camera would have helped a lot in that situation. I guess you must have been "picking your nose" if you know what I mean and have been following along.

m6user · August 2013

Crushed. Poor Smokey Joe!

nick139 · August 2013

Hello Folks..Just came across a pre-owned 2013 328i deal. It has 21000 miles in ~1yr and it was sold to the dealer in a Manufacturer Vehicle Auction. It is Lux line+Prem Pack+Tech Pack+Cold weather pack+Lighting pack+Driver Assis Pack and the dealer has very good price tag on the vehicle. Any suggestions/experience with Manufacturer Vehicle? I really love the deal, however, I am not familiar with Manufacturer Vehicle handling..?? Are 21000miles/yr too much? Is it a good call to buy the vehicle..? Any suggestions would be appreciated..!! I'm California.

scwmcan · August 2013

Are you sure that's what the dial does? On our 3 it controls the sensitivity to the rain, not the speed of the intermittent sweep, I would be surprised if the dial on the CX-9 was different ( but am not saying it isn't since I don't know from personal experience like with the 3).

ouface · September 2013

maybe it's a tail-risk event that you hit a kid, but for me a few hundred dollars more is something i'd gladly pay for, even if they made it standard and embedded it in the price.

if i'm spending mid 30s for a car, a few hundred bucks more ain't gonna matter.

robr2 · September 2013

Has anyone here ever actually used their back up cam, and after using their eyes (turning your head to look back), and then looked at the screen and seen something they missed?

Yes. I have a 2011 Explorer and can't see via the mirrors or looking out the rear window anything shorter than 3' tall for about 20'. I saw my 5 YO nephew there yesterday after walking around the back of the car to get in.

Yes he should know better but IMHO, the backup camera did it's job.

kmur · September 2013

"if i'm spending mid 30s for a car, a few hundred bucks more ain't gonna matter."

This attitude is why the price of cars keep going up and why so many people are so deeply in debt. Lots of different "few hundred" mores, when combined together, start to add up to real money.

andres3 · September 2013

Exactly! I think it's ridiculous the average American spends mid 30's for an average new car.

A few hundred here, a few hundred there, pretty soon your over 30K average transaction price.

Same with weight, a few pounds here, a few pounds there, suddenly a small car weighs 2 tons.

billyperksii · September 2013

"Exactly! I think it's ridiculous the average American spends mid 30's for an average new car"

Ten years ago we were spending mid twenties for an average car-its called inflation, basic economics.

robr2 · September 2013

Exactly! I think it's ridiculous the average American spends mid 30's for an average new car.

Says the man who just dropped 40 large on a new car......

dino001 · September 2013

Biggest part of the "few hundred" thing comes becasue of leases/loans. A few hundred is "only" a "a few buck per month". At low interest rates, $1000 in price translates into around $20 per months on a 60 month loan and can be even less on a lease, especially if it is subsidized by inflated residual. I can hear that salesman saying "you have 20 bucks, don't you?

Nothing helped the manufacturers increase the prices more than captive financing. Those subsidies partially offset the effective price increases (overall cost of car probably did not go as much up as the stickers if we compare it with loans prior interest rate bubble of 2000s), but create a dangerous situation when the rates go up (ad they will). We will be stuck with much higher prices then.

graphicguy · September 2013

dino...couldn't agree more. The subsidized financing is what allows manufacturers to sell more and more cars, which masking the price increases.

I can see my own automotive trend over the years. I always put a budget on what I'd pay for a car, based on what I could afford. First, (probably in the late '80s when I bought my first new car) it was $30K. That amount would net me a very nice car.

In the late '90s it balooned to $40K.

Now, I'm well into the $50K budget.

However, I expect more now than I did when I bought my first car, too. Back then, all I wanted was a comfortable, reliable car (which meant a Honda or a Toyota). Now, I want performance. I want luxury. I want reliability. I want all the tech stuff. I want the state of the art suspensions and transmissions. I want good build quality. I want top notch materials. I want styling. I want good fuel efficency. All that costs something.

That leads me to the most recent cars I've had....BMW, Audi, Acura.

Some embody those traits better than others. As of right now, I'm understanding what something like a TL has that I've missed from the German marks. Of course, you won't win many drag races with a TL like you will with an S4, either.

I'm betting that at some point, with the 3 series at least, the Acuras and the Lexi will be able to make another inroad to the German territory (as they did in the '80s) given the price deltas and the softening of the 3.

tifighter · September 2013

Ten years ago we were spending mid twenties for an average car-its called inflation, basic economics.

I don't know, I bought a new Accord EXL a month ago with heated leather, roof, LDW, FCW, backup and blind spot camera, etc. 39 mpg on a highway trip last Friday. Paid under $26k. Seems like there is good value in the market if you look for it.

billyperksii · September 2013

I bought the same car ten years ago for 22800 out the door.
EXL 4CYCL.

billyperksii · September 2013

Secondly, ten years ago I bought a TL Type S brand spanking new for 29,050. Try buying a base TL for that today.

robr2 · September 2013

Paid under $26k. Seems like there is good value in the market if you look for it.

Nobody said there wasn't value out there but the average price paid for a 2013 model is $31K.

kmur · September 2013

Passats are also still very good buys.

But this thread is on entry level lux performance sedans. Prices for these type of cars have not been stable. Inflation, coupled with new content is the reason. The new A4 I just picked up is a rolling WiFi hotspot for crying out loud. The prices can quickly shoot through the roof because often enough, your "must have" will be bundled up in a $3K to $4k option package. BMW is notorious for doing this, but Audi is guilty as well.

tifighter · September 2013

$22,800 in 2003 is $28946 in 2013 dollars. The 13 has more space, is safer, better equipped and gets better mileage.

I bought cars 10 years ago too. I'm happy with what I got for my money in 2013.

tifighter · September 2013

I realize what the thread is about. What was said was-

I think it's ridiculous the average American spends mid 30's for an average new car.

I'm just saying that a well-equipped Accord is a mid-twenties car and is the epitome of an average new car. I think higher average transaction prices are as much on the consumer as the manufacturer...they are buying more CUVs with higher margins, they are more brand conscious, etc. The market just continues to evolve.

m6user · September 2013

According to the Auto Dealers Association the average transactions as of Nov 2012 was right at $30k. That is a not mid-thirties.

tifighter · September 2013

No argument here.

andres3 · September 2013

The S4 is far from an average car though

I did find it ridiculous that a Rav 4 V6 with a Corolla-like interior cost as much as my new A3 2.0T in '06. Of course, the other side of that coin is that the Audi was a ridiculously great value back then ($30K out the door).

flightnurse · September 2013

"A few hundred here, a few hundred there, pretty soon your over 30K average transaction price. "

For 24K the mid-level Nissan Altima comes with a back up camera. I know that back up camera will be mandatory soon, so they will be in all cars are standard equipment.

There will be always people thinking they are superior drivers, they don't need silly things like back up camera's. I have to say, I'm spoiled, when I drive Ricks Genesis I like the back up camera, also some of the rental cars I have had lately have had them, i.e the full loaded 2014 Chevy Impala LTZ2 I had. I was backing out a space and the back up camera allowed me to see to the left and right of me (a truck and Van on either side) so I was able to see what I was doing.

I like them and welcome them into the cars.

m6user · September 2013

I know it's a bit off topic but could you give a short impression of your time with the new Impala?

Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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