Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

robr2 · October 2013

I got used to having the garage door opener work with the car turned off on the Acura, can't do it on the Audi. This means you have to close the garage door with the engine running...

Same thing in my VW. I attribute that to home protection. If you car is parked in the driveway, one can't just break into your car to open the garage door.

stickguy · October 2013

My Honda's don't need the car on. I prefer that.

besides, if you have a garage to open, you should park the care in it!

robr2 · October 2013

besides, if you have a garage to open, you should park the care in it!

I totally agree but if you own 3 cars and have a two car garage......

stickguy · October 2013

well, obvious answer, build a bigger garage.

anyway, if someone is going to break into your car they will just break into your house. Plus you could just lock the door into the house.

robr2 · October 2013

Plus you could just lock the door into the house.

Too many tools in the garage to help them break the lock....

"If it ain't one thing, it's another"

m6user · October 2013

It is safer from a security aspect to disable the opener unless one has the car key but it does make it a little inconvenient at times. If I had my choice I would probably like it NOT to work when the key is absent. Can't think of a many times where I used the Homelink without having the keys on me. In fact, I don't know if mine will work without the key or not...I'll have to check. I've got a fair amount of equipment and tools in the garage to steal, let alone have them available to break into the house in complete privacy from inside the garage.

flightnurse · October 2013

Mark, my 320 has 1200 miles on it most are by Rick, he had to go to Tucson for his Uncle's Funeral, on his way back he was pilled over for speeding. , he direct quote was, "I can not believe I was doing 80 the felt more like I was doing 60." He was given a warning. Whe I drove the car up to Prescott I too was surprised on how one has a hard time "feeling" the speed of the car, Ricks Genesis is the same way. As I wrote the engine has a Effortless about it when cruising on the highway that none of my other BMW's had. E46 built up the speed, as well as the E90 did. I keep hearing Rick mention how much he likes driving HIS BMW, maybe I can persuade him to trade his Genesis in and I can get the S5 I was looking at...

nyccarguy · October 2013

Not sure if I gave you both the official congratulations & mazel Tov on your new rides! Best of luck to you both & use them well!

On my BMW, the car has to be on, but not running to open the garage door. When do I use this you ask? We only have 1 garage door opener, so on days I take my Prelude to work & we have a sitter watching the kids, I leave the opener for the sitter & use my BMW's home link to close the garage.

Robr2 - funny you should mention about "too many tools in the garage to break the lock." When we bought our house 3 years ago, we had an alarm installed. The guy was going over all of the features and he said something to the effect of: "and if you ever come home & someone jumps out of the bushes and pulls a knife on you, do this..."

fedlawman · October 2013

"The E46 was and is today the best 3 series BMW built."

Sorry Flight, I just can't let that pass. Everybody knows that the E46 is the 2nd best 3-Series.

OK, back to our regularly scheduled discussion...

flightnurse · October 2013

So what is the best 3 series? Now I'm not talking about certain model, but overall 3 series, series.

graphicguy · October 2013

Man....you could make a case for a lot of candidates for "best" 3 series.

My first one was an E30, bought used. Driven hard for 4 years, without one hiccup. Sold it for about $2K less than I bought it for, which I thought was great.

Every subsequent one ('06 330i and '11 335ix coupe) really never was as much fun as the '87 325i. Still, they were good in their own right.

But, I experienced the progression and transformation from sports sedan into luxo badged car first hand with each one I had.

The newer ones are indeed faster than the '87 325i, but none of them were as much fun to drive. Not really sure their fuel economy is better, either.

IIRC, I was getting mid 20s MPG in town on that 325i, and knocking on 30 MPG all highway.

flightnurse · October 2013

Graphic I know what you are saying, I never owned a E30, driven many of them, but for me the E46 was it. Perfect balance between pure sport and lux. You could take my 330i on the track during the day and then out to dinner in Scottsdale without missing a beat. The suspension was rougher then I would really like today. The current 320 has the typical tectonic feel with a slightly softer suspension, but if you want more sport, order the Sport Package which gives you the M sport package...

dino001 · October 2013

What is "tectonic feel"? Something is shifting under you, like tectonic plates? I'm not making fun of you, I just don't know what you mean.

scwmcan · October 2013

I am guessing it was an auto correct or a typo and was supposed to be Teutonic feel.

tlong · October 2013

I am guessing it was an auto correct or a typo and was supposed to be Teutonic feel.

I loved the Teutonic feel of my '98 Audi A4 2.8 manual. I didn't like the tectonic feel of the '94 Northridge earthquake, however.

graphicguy · October 2013

FN...I'm thinking your 320i is the "new" sweet spot for a 3 Series that offers the "sport" of "luxury sports" sedans that I'm looking for.

That said, looking at the 320i as competition, I'd choose it over a CLA, in a heartbeat. And, I haven't even test driven a CLA, yet....just looked at one, and sat in one.

Q50 has been widely panned. So, doubt that would be on my short list.

A4? I'm probably going to give Audi a rest once I move from my S4 in a year, or so.

If I were in the market today? For ~$40K (using available discounts), I'd probably spring for another Acura TL SH AWD with Tech package. I'm really interested to see what Acura brings out next spring with the new TL(X).

To get what I want in a 3 Series, I'd probably have to go with at least a 328ix (with the preference being a 335ix). Equipped the way I want, assuming a $3K-$4K discount, I'd still be in that upper $40K range, into the low $50K range. That's a price range I think hits into the "diminishing returns" category, however.

Although, I do find the upcoming M235i intriguing.

markcincinnati · October 2013

I would urge you to get the Advance, not Tech version of the TL. I got a 13% discount on my 2012, Advance, so my guess is they have more to play with in that car -- and you will get the 19" wheels which both improve the turn in and looks.

Moreover, you get the really cool (pun intended) vented seats -- and, most importantly blind spot monitoring.

I know y'all will give me grief, but FOR THE MONEY the TL SH-AWD Advance is Acura's version of an S4.

The thing is, for most, just too ugly, hence no matter what I say to anyone they just can't get past the looks.

Again, for the money, the Acura as noted above is worth cross shopping with the S4 -- now, is the Acura likely to be confused with the S4? Nope.

Is the S4, lightly optioned, worth $10,000 more than the TL? Yep.

Would most folks cross shop these two cars? I doubt it.

If you can't or don't want to afford an S4 and the new Q50 leaves you cold, your only "cheap" choice is the TL SH-AWD Advance. All in with the TL, adding parktronic and upgrading the tires to 19" UHP "Z" or "Y" or "W" rated rubber, you're going to be at $47K or maybe $48K (MSRP).

BTW: I am not excluding the BMW 335i x-drive -- but, like the S4, it seems (or seemed) to be made of unobtanium; and for some reason the 3 series seems a bit small to me.

The IS 350 F Sport doesn't have the engine the Audi S4 has, of course; and, frankly, the Acura at 305HP feels no less potent than the IS 350.

My S4 is a premium plus S-tronic version in free paint -- Ibis White -- with the upgraded leather seats, MMI+, Blind Spot monitoring, B&O sound system and carbon fiber trim (which looks nice, but for $500? Naaaah.) With shipping the thing was $57K -- $10K more than the TL and $7K more than an IS 350 AWD F-SPORT.

I drove:

Q50S AWD
IS 350 AWD F-Sport
Volvo S60 Type/R (also AWD)
Acura TL SH-AWD Advance
Audi A4 2.0T Sport
Audi A5 2.0T Sport
Audi S4 S-Tronic
Audi S4 6-speed manual shift
Audi SQ5 8-speed Tiptronic (Prestige)

Thinking an S4 (my preference) was "out of reach" and not thinking the A4 or A5 2.0T versions had sufficient "guts," and reading the critical reviews of the Q50S, I ordered a 2014 IS 350 AWD F-SPORT in Ultra White with the red leather interior.

My wife, meanwhile, was smitten with the SQ5 Prestige and ordered that. While we were filling out the paperwork on her SQ5, I commented how much I would rather have the S4 than the IS, but that the price of the S4 made it seem to be constructed out of unobtainium.

Days later, Audi dealer says -- I can get you a white S4 S-Tronic with magma red leather and the blind spot warning (which was a deal breaker or maker option) -- and we think, with no money down, we can meet the Lexus' price since you are now eligible for the Audi loyalty discount (since your wife has also rejoined the Audi family.)

The moral of the story: if you can't or don't want to "afford" the S4 (or whatever your passion inducing car is), of all of the remaining choices, you will have to give up less if you get the TL SH-AWD Advance than any other car on the ELLPS list -- and you will surely pay less (comparably equipped).

DILYL

graphicguy · October 2013

Mark...thanks for your insight.

Not sure where I'm going from here. I heard last week that my S4 will probably need a new trans. Granted, it's covered under warranty. But, this is just one in an ongoing series of trips into the service area of the dealership. That, and it seems it could take as long as a month to get it fixed.

Ordinarily, I'd get into the whole "lemon law" thing, but I still like the car, believe it or not. It's clear I'm not going to keep it long term, however. So, the quandry becomes how much of a hit will I take if I hold onto it, and try to sell/trade it, and that CARFAX shows all the service it has needed?

I'm going to have to make up my mind relatively quickly here. If I lemon it (I don't think I'll get much pushback), what do I replace it with? This isn't the first time I've lemoned a car (helped my late Mother lemon law her Cadillac several years ago). I know the drill. It'll take a couple of months.

Another Audi? Probably not.

Cadillac? The new CTS intrigues me, but I'm not ponying up another $50K for a car. Plus, there's my lemon law experience with them....not good.

Infiniti....boy, I try and try to like them. I just can't seem to embrace their cars, for a variety of reasons. Same goes for Mercedes. I always feel like I would be paying too much for an underpowered German sedan with them....particularly compared to the competition.

Lexus? I liked the previous IS, except it was small for my tastes. GS? Maybe.

I do think BMW is on the short list. But, as you say, just like the S4, the one I'm interested in (335) is tought to find. Plus, you're breaking way past that $50K mark if you do find one. The M235 intrigues me. There again, you have a size "thing".

I do like Acuras. As you say, the TL SH AWD Advance is right there. Plus, from what I'm reading, getting one all loaded up for right around $40K is compelling. I drove my sister's TL a while ago. I may have to borrow hers again.

First things first...I have to decide what to do with the S4.

rayainsw · October 2013

'The M235 intrigues me.'

This M235i looks like it may make
my short list in a couple of years.

A couple of specifics:
Performance  the quoted acceleration times from BMW
are almost exactly the same as the 335iS I leased.

Fuel Economy  the EPA estimates are rather
Dramatically better than that 335iS !
[ 22 city / 32 hiway  M235i
17 city / 24 hiway  2011 335iS ]

The price  at $44K base, including the 8-speed
automatic trans., this compares with $53.5K
for the 2011 335iS, with the 7-speed DCT.

Although this 2 Series is slightly smaller than
the 335, I really do not need anything larger . . .
[ Heck, I had a Corvette as my only vehicle for
over 30,000 miles. ]

And it appears that there may be a 4-door???

Anyway  subject to magazine reports &
a few test drives [ of course ] I do like
what I see and read, so far.

- Ray
Not in the market, just yet . . .

ivan_99 · October 2013

Is this your first transmission issue?

I'm not familiar with lemon laws...I thought the same 'fix' had to occur 4 or more times, or the vehicle has to be out of commission for 30+ days.

flightnurse · October 2013

buenas gente de la mañana, y feliz día de los muertos, aquí en el suroeste se trata de un día muy especial.

Graphic your S4 needs a new transmission, WTF... Plus it might take Audi a month to fix it, I think I would be looking at some compensation for this, since your lease payment wont stop while you can't drive it....

In regards to a new car, it always comes down to wants v needs. Why not take the simpler approach to this, get yourself a BMW328xi with the Premium package and Nav (Not the Tech package) which will get you into the car under 45K before discounts. If you go through Costco auto program the price is roughly 42K.

If you are thinking of a coupe, look outside the box at a Hyundai Genesis Coupe with the 3.8L V6.

nyccarguy · October 2013

Happy Halloween to you too Flightnurse:)

nyccarguy · October 2013

I have a feeling you are going to end up with TL #2. Just an educated guess!

graphicguy · November 2013

Ivan...IF (big IF) it takes a month to get and install a new trans (all the associated parts have to be ordered, too) I think I have a good case for lemon law. In addition, the car has been in the dealer's service dept for numerous other issues (some of which couldn't be resolved...like MMI issues) for another 10-12 days (I have to tally them up).

Dealership states that they don't know which parts will be needed UNTIL the trans is out, which makes the car undriveable. So, yeah...it could take awhile, given the parts come from Germany.

I do love the car. I don't like the hassle of taking it to the dealership, seemingly every other week.

It's not a lease...it's a purchase. If it was a lease, I'd just keep it for what would be the next 16-17 months and not worry about it.

Ray...I thought you were done with BMWs? Do you know when the M235 is supposed to hit the showroom?

NYC...I consider the TL a viable alternative. I'm really interested in the new one that's supposed to hit next Spring. The question becomes, how long will I hold out on the Audi.

markcincinnati · November 2013

If your sister doesn't have a TL SH-AWD advance, driving her TL could turn you off of getting one.

I was given the FWD TL Tech (2013) when mine was in for a service interval. The SH-AWD has a "performance tuned" suspension. The TL FWD does not.

The SH-AWD Advance has 19" wheels and, unfortunately, somewhat lackluster All-Season "V" rated tires (somewhat stiffer sidewalls), but this version of the TL is only similar to a regular FWD TL in its basic looks.

Add the dealer installed parktronic and scrap the factory rubbers on the TL SH-AWD Advance; replace them with UHP W or even Z rated A/S tires (there are several to choose from -- see Tire Rack.com) and you will have a $47K (MSRP) "Acura S4-lite." Next factor in the possibility of a decent discount (10% based on what I see here in River City) should be a no brainer, and remember I got 13% off of the bottom line of the MSRP sticker.

I do caution you to not think that any other version of the TL than the SH-AWD Advance will be "close enough for jazz." Is there any NEWNESS on the 2014's, or are we going to have to wait for the 2015 MY to see if the ugly duckling can turn into a beautiful swan?

DILYL

sweendogy · November 2013

Surprised they didn't recall the whole lot of TLS due to styling alone- we all know what happen to Pontiac for giving us the Aztec - this is a similar situation

jeffm5 · November 2013

Just curious why a Volvo S60 isn't on your list of cars to consider? I have an S60 T5 FWD and it hits all of the sweet spots for me at a reasonable price. Only problems I've had are a loose head liner and finicky memory seat. BTW, consistently getting over 30 MPG on the highway on regular. I know it doesn't have the status of other cars in this category, but I recommend you take one out. You may be pleasantly surprised.

graphicguy · November 2013

Mark...my sister does have an SH AWD Advance. So, does that come with the 19" rubber? I know the brief time I drove hers, it is indeed a nice ride.

Never thought about the Volvo. Another one I need to look at.

First things first, though....gotta decide what to do about the Audi.

markcincinnati · November 2013

Yep, all TL SH-AWD Advance cars came from the factory shod with 19" wheels and tires -- the tires, ARE V rated, which is a good thing; however, my 2012 really was transformed when I upgraded to UHP A/S tires.

Full disclosure, my Advance wheels were bent from the get-go, and Acura decided that they would pay only 50% of the cost of the new wheels since they weren't "discovered" as bent until 20K miles (I first complained at the first oil change which was just south of 8,000 miles, but Acura thought I had warped brake rotors, not BENT wheels -- so I was given the opportunity to buy factory OE wheels [19"] at the bargain basement price of $650-ish per.)

But I digress -- YES YES YES, the TL SH-AWD Advance comes with both sport tuned suspension bits and 19" High Performance rubber.

I did like my TL -- but I love my S4. Hopefully I will be the beneficiary of Audis new Consumer Reports reliability rating of #4 most reliable car and #1 most reliable European car.

BTW, the Volvo S60 T6 Type-R is in the MSRP range of the above noted Acura TL SH-AWD Advance. HOWEVER, where Acura will discount the poop out of the TL, Volvo will give perhaps 3 or 4% off (if it is at the end of the month). The trouble with Volvo is they never seem to have any car in stock that pulls it all together.

But wait -- the Volvo European delivery program is one of the best of any manufacturer -- get the DVD that 'splains it. That might make paying closer to sticker a bit more palatable; and if you get the T6 Type-R Polestar Edition, you can drive the thing on the autobahn if you stay a couple of extra days, then turn it back in at one of the drop off points and fly business class back to the states!

If you've ever driven a fine European car on the autobahn, you know what I mean when I say it should be on everyone (who loves cars) bucket list.

DILYL

rayainsw · November 2013

"Ray...I thought you were done with BMWs? Do you know when the M235 is supposed to hit the showroom?"

Next March, I hear.
I do not recall writing that I was 'done with BMWs' -
I will not be doing anything in the next 1.5+ years.
I plan to test drive 1 shortly after the 2's start hitting US dealers
next March. [ -ish]
- Ray
M235i might lure me back....

andres3 · November 2013

I recommend you exchange your lemon S4 for a real new S4. After all, what are the chances you'll get two lemons in a row?

Especially considering Audi is now more reliable brand-wide than Infinity!

A serious accomplishment, but I can't blame you for being weary based on your own personal experience.

If Acura improves the 5 or 6 key points of problems I noticed with the TL-SH-AWD, they will have a winner on their hands with the 2015 version.

1) no plastic trim/rails on the roof!
2) 330+ HP
3) Dual Clutch Transmission please!
4) 200+ pounds lighter, & more balanced weight distribution (such as moving front brake calipers to back side of wheel).
5) Make the awesome sound system with DVD-A standard.
6) Make the good leather (Milano Leather) standard. Offer the brown leather interior color in more than just the Advance trimming.
7) Offer better colors and more selection!
8) Make it better looking and more stylish.

9) Sell it for $40K out the door Taxes included.

If they had met 6 or 7 of the above 9 items, I'd already be sold.

graphicguy · November 2013

ray...my apologies. I thought you had said you were moving away from BMW. I was wrong.

andres...you bring up a very good point. What are the odds to S4s are problematic?

I'll have to get my hands on my sister's TL and drive it again. I remember thinking it drove really well...much better than the one I had 4 years prior. Her leather is nicer than the leather I have in the S4. So, I guess the key is to get the upper models of the TL to get the real "goodies". I know she bought her TL SH AWD Advance for around $40K, give or take, that's a lot of performance and a lot of really nice car for that price.

We'll see how this plays out with my S4.

qbrozen · November 2013

Especially considering Audi is now more reliable brand-wide than Infinity!

You are speaking of "initial quality" are you not? Big difference.

dino001 · November 2013

No, I it's also improved for longer term, according to Consumer Reports, not just initial. The rank is based on surveys for several years back and represents forward projection of those results.

qbrozen · November 2013

huh. Interesting... kind of.

andres3 · November 2013

I'll be the first to knock initial quality as a relatively useless thing.

After all, my lemon-like Dodge Neon had reasonably OK initial quality. It was the long term quality that reared its ugly head over and over.

The problem was there was no long term quality, it was planned to be obsolete the day after 3 years or the mile after 36,000.

That being said, there were some early tell tale signs that it was not going to be an acceptable car. My view is if I have a significant amount of problems in the first 3 years, odds are it'll be exponentially more after warranty. Then again, my friends Altima blew it's engine and transmission in its first month, and ended up being extremely reliable for about 5-6 years, and then all hell broke loose again.

2nd failed CVT transmission and failed CAT Converter (both covered by Nissan because Nissan knows they are failure prone). I'm still waiting for a "extended Neon" warranty check from Chrysler.

Not holding my breath though, it's obvious that Chrysler's culture views a car that has failed head gaskets, AC compressor, and auto transmission all by 60,000 miles (in addition to about 15 other things that broke) as perfectly normal. As the dealer service manager told me "parts just break down."

My experience at Honda and Audi and (my best friend with Nissan) is just the polar opposite, it is a culture where parts breakdowns are unacceptable! If it happens, they seem to do they're absolute best at minimizing them.

For example, Honda replacing my transmission out of warranty at 42K miles for free, and doing it in 2.5 days. Audi fixed my AC at 53,000 miles out of warranty in a very similar manner (though it took 2 weeks, but I had an A4 loaner so I was happy). Audi sending me a check for nearly $700 for failed induction control modules since it was warrantied retroactively to 120,000 miles, and my best friends experience with Nissan above.

My AC failed at literally year 3 - day 3 (under 36K miles), and Dodge never blinked an eye for offering assistance.

Head gaskets at 40 or 45k, Dodge dealer made no comment.

Auto transmission at 60k (independent shop's comment was "I can't believe they are still using those cheap ancient 3-speeds.")

I think I'm justified in not only boycotting the Big 3 for life, but forbidding my children (at least until age 18 I think I can) to give the Big 3 any money. After 18 I'll just have to disown them if they do so. :P

robr2 · November 2013

Out of curiosity, you call the Neon yours but you've also said it was your parents. Which is it?

graphicguy · November 2013

Dropped the Audi off yesterday for another attempt for the dealer to fix the MMI and drivetrain grinding/binding issues.

They put me in an A6...only this time with the 4 cyl turbo. I wanted one with the 3.0 S/C. But, the only loaners they had were the A6 and an A4 with the same motor. I took the A6.

Surprisingly, the 4 cyl turbo in the A6 does a good job. It's certainly light years smoother than BMW's 4 turbo. Understand, this is a heavy car. And, there's a noticeable fall off in acceleration with the turbo 4. But, if you're not really a performance car enthusiast, you get the handling and ride of the A6 with a wee bit of "sprightliness" thrown in.

Not sure the difference in price between it and the A6 3.0, but if anyone's in the market for an A6, and one can be had in the low $40K range (not sure about that last part), it might be worh a look.

flightnurse · November 2013

graphic, there is a 8K difference between the turbo 4 and SC V6. You have to move up the mid level Premium Plus.

I find the turbo engines to do a adequate job of moving the cars around town. My BMW makes 200 lbs of torque at 1250 RPM, about 500 RPMs above idle. Like the BMW there is a chip for the Audi (really VW) turbo 4, which will increase HP to roughly 256hp, and increase torque to about 290lbs total cost about $350. Which I believe just increased boost +3 lbs over stock and remaps the air fuel mixture. It's not as much power as your S4, but to get into a A6 and have some more power for under 45K not bad..

graphicguy · November 2013

FN....just drove down to Lexington this a.m. in the A6. It's a big car, obviously. But, the 4 cyl turbo does indeed do well in "normal" driving. I was quite surprised the amount of "zing" it has passing on the interstate. If it were mine, I would have to "chip" it, though.

I'll have to get behind the wheel of a 320i someday. Yours sounds very nice.

flightnurse · November 2013

Graphic, this is how manufactures are playing the displacement game, with the turbo engine, allow the engine to make good amount of power down low to "fool" people into thinking it has more then advertise, also the 8 spd transmission does not hurt either.

andres3 · November 2013

It was a joint purchase between my Dad and I.

I drove it 95%+ of the miles. He'd rarely drive it.

For all intents and purposes it was mine with his financial contribution.

andres3 · November 2013

The 2.0T engine from VW/Audi is indeed a great all-around motor. It does work best tuned to Stage 1, 1+, or 2.

Or better yet, hold out for the new S3 said to equal the 335i performance (300 HP and 300 lb./ft. of torque) with the fantastic 2.0T motor in a 3,100 lb. car. The 2.0T motor is meant to propel cars that are 3,000 to 3,300 pounds, not 2 tons.

tlong · November 2013

The latest CR doesn't think too highly of the new Infiniti G27 follow on. Did anybody see that?

graphicguy · November 2013

tlong....I didn't see the entire article, but I did see a blurb stating that Infiniti badly missed the mark (or something to that affect)?

FN...Andre....while I like my vehicles with more....ummm...gusto, I can see the appeal of the new(er) 4 cyl turbo lux vehicles. I can see the appeal of the A6 with the 2.0L turbo. Not my cup of tea. But, it hits a price point and hits most of the "tic" boxes one would expect of this type of car (omitting power).

If the 6 cyl motors in these cars weren't so darn good (Audi S/C 3.0, BMW turbo 3.0, Acura 3.7, etc), and perform so well, I might be able to pry myself away from them. As it stands, I'm still a big fan of the 6s.

flightnurse · November 2013

The Cadillac CTS was the 2014 Motortreands Car of the Year.

http://editorial.autos.msn.com/cadillac-cts-motor-trend-car-of-the-year?icid=aut- os_4949

cdnpinhead · November 2013

"The Cadillac CTS was the 2014 Motortreands Car of the Year."

That can be faint praise, once the history of the COTY over the decades is reviewed. The Chevy Vega (1971) and the Renault Alliance (1983) are two stellar examples. The Lincoln LS (2000) lasted 6-7 years before it was discontinued altogether. That one left a particularly sour taste in my mouth.

GM does advertise a lot, though.

rayainsw · November 2013

'The Lincoln LS (2000) lasted 6-7 years before it was discontinued altogether. That one left a particularly sour taste in my mouth. '
Mine, too.
- Ray
Such potential there ......

nyccarguy · November 2013

I agree 100%. wasn't the Neon given the COTY award too?

rayainsw · November 2013

Another potential ELLPS contender
for my $s - come the time...
http://www.edmunds.com/audi/s3/2015/road-test.html
- Ray
Not exactly a road 'test' IMHO ....

Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

Comments

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles