Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

robr2 · November 2013

Keep in mind that Motor Trend Car of the Year doesn't mean it's the best car ever made or even available. The award is given to a car that is all new or substantially changed and is judged on superiority, significance and value.

When introduced, the winners are usually a significant entry for the maker. The Vega was Chevy's first attempt at down sized economy car. The LS was Lincoln's BMW fighter. The K cars were Chrysler's first FWD cars.

cdnpinhead · November 2013

First, there are good intentions, then there's execution, and last there's follow-through.

The only rental car (& I've rented a bunch of them) that left me beside the road wishing it was 25 years later (so I could have had a cell phone) was the Alliance. My parents bought a Vega.

Execution and follow-through matter at least in the world of automobiles. That said, the collective memory of the public is short, very short.

graphicguy · November 2013

ray....I've been reading a lot about the S3 recently. I wonder if its performance will encroach upon the S4's turf?

andres3 · November 2013

Probably, but you'll have to live with a smaller car.

I chose the S4 for 2 reasons over the S3.

1) I can use the extra space and size.

2) The S3 would probably keep me waiting another year (or close to it).

3) From what I understand it has the same old 6-speed DSG in the S3, and I really think it needs that 7th gear as in the S4.

graphicguy · November 2013

andres....interesting car (S3) nonetheless. I agree, the S4 will probably be a larger vehicle with more amenities available.

The Audi dealer called me this a.m. Service manager said they started with the MMI issues. Apparently, Audi corporate said I was using "non-compliant CDs" and my iPod wasn't running an authorized version of iOS. Huh?

I bought the CDs from Best Buy. All of them are "non-compliant"? iPod came right from Apple and iOS updates came straight from Apple's iTunes WEB site. Service Manager says he understands my frustration. But, he did download some sort of firmware. He said I should test it when I ge the car back. I told him my iPod and CDs are still in the car. All he has to do is to plug in the iPod or play a CD to see if they still cut out all the time.

He sounded frustrated, but said he would. When I inquired about the next step if it doesn't work, he said they'd have to remove the entire dash and colsole to get the MMI out...to replace the MMI. His feeling is if one didn't work, a new one, with the same software, may not work, either. I asked him what happens then? He said..."I don't know". Geesh!

They haven't even touched the grinding/binding Quattro system yet.

This is not going well.

dino001 · November 2013

Sorry about your issues. Such a great car, such a waste. Your MMI issues just made me realize, two 328 loaners I had in past year had both refuse to play the iPod nano I have - it's the slightly older generation. My own 328 has no problem playing it, but those two brand spanking new ones, did not recognize it. Same cable, same connection, same brand. Much smaller issue, of course, not even my car, but it just tells me when it comes to electronics, it's always a crap shoot. They charge you full price, but when it doesn't work they tell you what can ya' da - it's electronics, it's new, it's cutting edge (by that they mean, it cuts or it works on the edge of failure).

This lack of accountability in software industry is trully staggering. They charge you arm and leg, license agreements that say they are not responsible for anything, even if it causes nuclear explosion and act like doing you some enormous favor when you want the darn thing to work as described. After two half-a** attempts, they tell you to buy newer and improved version that has no real guarantee to work, either. Of course for full price.... OK, you get 10% "upgrade discount". No other industry has it better. Since software is now everywhere, the culture of non-accountability spread like a disease.

robr2 · November 2013

My own 328 has no problem playing it, but those two brand spanking new ones, did not recognize it.

Many audio systems do have issues with older iPod and iPhones. Basically, they aren't expected to last years and years and as such the audio companies the manufacturers use do not build in compatibility for those older models.

flightnurse · November 2013

Andres, there is only so much one can do to these engines before things start to break.

I know that the aftermarket has had a chiip for the 1.8T and 2.0T for years, with the added 56hp and 50lbs of torque it really transforms these cars.

The A3/S3 look like fun cars, but man are they small (smaller then the current A4) and for most just too small. Give me a A4 with a chipped 2.0 and a DSG..

dino001 · November 2013

That s**ks. Why something costing $150 and more should not last at least 5 years. What kind of mindset is that? My Nano is about 4 years old. That's way too short for new cars not to recognize it.

flightnurse · November 2013

Dino, you got me thinking, I have two two iPod Nano's first generation and third, My 320 plays what is on my iphone with no problems, plugged in my thrid Gen Nano with the current iOS and it played, I'm charging my first Gen Nano and will give see if it needs an update and will give it a try.

robr2 · November 2013

That s**ks. Why something costing $150 and more should not last at least 5 years. What kind of mindset is that? My Nano is about 4 years old. That's way too short for new cars not to recognize it.

The life cycle of consumer electronics is about 30 months....

Apple isn't in the business of selling you one piece of hardware and having it last forever.

As noted, try updating the OS and see if it works.

dino001 · November 2013

I don't need to update anything, it works on my car, it just doesn't on the loaners.

The built-in obsolescence, especially using such short cycles like 30 months is totally unacceptable to me. That's why I don't buy that stuff as much and as often as many others. I'm not "old", or "afraid", I simply see those as vehicles to get to my wallet by providing some marginal improvements in my life. I am what you would call "late adopter" (as opposed to early adopters), I get stuff only when I see a real and lasting improvement in life or business, or lack of that posession would put me in some significant disadvantage. Not being able to get latest tweets from people I don't care about is not disadvantage. I'm also not presumptuous to assume that people would be interested what I had for breakfast. The resources (from energy, to physical facilities) required to maintain all that vane electronic waste could probably eliminate world hunger.

robr2 · November 2013

I don't need to update anything, it works on my car, it just doesn't on the loaners.

Well I presumed since you complained it didn't work on the loaners it was important to you.

dino001 · November 2013

I understand, you're right. Yeah, it may be worth a shot next time, I'm scheduled for a service to go and try an update.

flightnurse · November 2013

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2015-audi-s3-sedan-first-drive-review?src=sp- r_FBPAGE&spr_id=1458_29940455

markcincinnati · November 2013

I don't want to start an argument, although I am not against arguing, if that makes any sense. But I was struck by the statements that things are becoming obsolete (perhaps the implication was "on purpose") every 30 months or so.

Let me provide some perspective that made me read the "30 months" statement and cock my head and have a cartoon balloon with a question mark in it appear overhead.

I have a 2014 Audi S4 Premium Plus with MMI+ and the B&O sound system. I also have the silk nappa leather seat upgrade.

Previously I had a 2009 Audi A4 Prestige and sport package equipped 2.0T quattro (it also had the power rear sunshade and ADS and the B&O sound system.)

Before that I had a 2005 Audi A6 3.2 with sport wheels and nav and sport seats (with the $1,000 premium leather option), the Bose sound system and the built in phone cradle and whatever else made a 2005 A6 cost nearly $54,000 new.

Now, I kept my 2005 A6 about 42 months (6 months beyond the end of the lease due to the delayed delivery in 2008 of the 2009 A4's). I kept the 2009 full term and put some 56K miles on it (and 66K miles as I recall on the '05 A6.)

One month ago I get into my new 2014 S4 configured as noted above.

If you would have put me into my new 2005 A6 and I had become familiar with the controls and the layout of everything and the functioning and format of the electronics and then you had me close my eyes for "a second" and re-opened them in October 2008 whilst I was seated behind the wheel of my 2009 A4, then repeated the process and I opened my eyes behind the wheel of my 2014 S4, I would have almost thought all that had changed was the color of the seats and dashboards.

My A6 had a black dash with the baseball glove colored leather seats -- the wood trim was walnut dark brown; my A4 had an ecru dash and seats -- the wood trim was oak blonde; next up, the S4 has a black dash with the magma red leather seats and carbon fiber trim.

The electronics (the automotive "avionics") were virtually unchanged from calendar year 2004 through 2013 (10 years, 120 months). Yes, there are some incremental (and mostly pretty small) "improvements" in the avionics. I can now recite an entire 10-digit phone number and the voice recognition system doesn't respond "Pardon?" The moving map is said to be 3D, but that's not literally true, although there is a greater perception of "depth" as one looks at the map (sitting or moving).

The B&O system in the 2014 MY S4 MAY be a little bit better than the excellent version of the system circa 2008 in the MY 2009 A4 (and the B&O is better than the Bose that was in the '05 A6.)

Overall, though, I would say there has been no "built-in obsolescence" since this car's "systems" have been around for 10 years without anything of any real form and/or function changing.

Now, however, therefore, notwithstanding -- I like the B8's electronics/avionics -- just as I did when I first met them in the '05 A6. I continued to enjoy them in the 2009 A4 and although I do -- from time to time -- touch the screen on the S4 thinking it has [or that it MUST have] the same capabilities that most of today's smart-phones and tablet PC's have.

Some are already saying (and have been saying so for some time now) that Audi's interior (from the driver's perspective) is long in the tooth. And, maybe, just maybe keeping the look and feel and user interface pretty much the same for 10 years is TOO long, I think the 2014 A6 interior and electronics package has taken a step back, looking like the second gen Cadillac CTS, which I didn't care for.

I keep my nav screen on almost all of the time. I would hate to have one of those aftermarket looking things (for instance, the pop-up nav that came on gen 2 CTS and the current iteration of A6's) that somehow passes for forward movement. Who's dumb idea was it to spoil the flowing lines of the newest A6 interior with that silly screen that looks, to my eye, as if it were an afterthought.

So. . .built-in obsolescence? 10 years seems about right to me.

robr2 · November 2013

What you are looking at is the user interface. What I was talking about was the technology that delivers that user interface. That life is about 30 months.

Maintaining a known interface with just a few tweaks entices current customers to stay with the brand. For many folks, having to learn a new interface when changing car brands would be a major inconvenience. Notice that Apple hasn't changed the "i" interface very much. Someone who used an iPhone back in 2007 could wake up today and still be able to use an iPhone. In fact, they could probably use any touch device as Apple set a standard copied by everyone else.

I could say the same thing about Hondas. I bought my first one in 1991, a second in 1998 and a third in 2000. I can climb into just about any Honda and the interface (switches, controls) would be exactly the same. I know it's simpler than the electronic interface you mention, but it's the same idea.

markcincinnati · November 2013

If you are "shielded" from the underlying technology by an evolving not radically changing interface, why would you care if the underlying tech was changing every couple of years or so?

I would think, like the Apple iPhone, that we all appreciate that the 4 and the 5S have similar user interfaces but that the tech of the 5 is way faster, etc.

I would hope the underlying tech of my 2014 is much changed over my 2005 A6, in fact I would be ok if it changed annually even if I only change my car every 3+ years or so.

I hate to be dense, but isn't it a good thing that tech keeps marching forward?

I do agree making the thing have deliberate built-in obsolescence just for the sake of making it obsolete would make no sense; but, I am going to assume that while my Audi's user interface has little changed that the underlying stuff has changed (and for the betterment of all human-kind).

Why is it problematic [for you] that some tech is said to have become obsolete in 30 months or whatever time frame. Now the issue I would have is if the tech became unreliable or lacked durability. As far as I know the 2005 A6 MMI system works fine, lasts a long time -- but I would assume, I would hope even that the stuff underneath has been improved and improved and improved since it was first brought to market.

cdnpinhead · November 2013

that a sporty car had a taut suspension that was cleverly designed to allow the vehicle to go around corners like it was "on rails." It had a manual transmission that was fun to use. It might have had some kind of big-boy engine that provided ~ 6 second 0-60 runs, but that wasn't necessary by any means. It had some kind of audio system that provided entertainment on straight roads (and otherwise, but it didn't matter so much then).

Now it's all about electronics.

Knock yourselves out.

robr2 · November 2013

If you are "shielded" from the underlying technology by an evolving not radically changing interface, why would you care if the underlying tech was changing every couple of years or so? ...... Why is it problematic [for you] that some tech is said to have become obsolete in 30 months or whatever time frame.

I wasn't the one that had an issue with the obsolescence of an electronic item. I was the one that stated that hardware - especially consumer electronics - have a short expected life span. The OP had an issue with an older iPod working fine in his older BMW but not in the loaners.

IMHO, products become obsolete by the sheer pace of advances we have today. As technology improves, older items become obsolete simply because the majority abandon them and support resources need to be devoted to current technology. We can't slow down advances simply to support the last adopters.

dino001 · November 2013

I have no problem woth changing tech as long as the old one still works at least for a while. Three years is too short, something like six may be acceptable, especially at prices charged by both Apple and BMW. I do not accept premise that perfectly functioning $200 product should be tossed out so quickly for sake of new tech that does the same thing, like playing same music files at same quality. BTW, my Nano has up to date OS, which means it is the new 328 interface not accepting it.

graphicguy · November 2013

I'm not so sure it's obsolescence, per se. But, I do think that the electronics aren't fully developed in cars to accept what has been a dizzying expansion of chips, PCBs, computers and software used to operate cars.

Amazing to me that the (using another acronym) ECU to precisely measure the exact amount of fuel required in each cylinder to maximize power and economy is amazing in and of itself. Overall, the car companies have that one nailed.

Another case in point, it's pretty amazing that most cars with the capability to tell the driver when his oil needs to be changed, based on sensors monitoring operating temp, mode of driving, etc, is equally amazing.

Where they fall down, is they don't put as much effort into understanding how the stereo is supposed to work with an iPod (probably the single most ubiquitous media device currently on the planet). Or, in Audi's case, how they can't even get CDs to play correctly. This, a technology that's been around for at least 30 years (and will probably be dead before the end of the decade).

It's not just Audi I'm picking on. I've heard wide spread reports of this from people who own GM cars, the issues with Ford's Sync, etc. Even my BMW E92 had stereo and NAV issues (minor in comparison to the Audi MMI), and that platform had been around for awhile.

My personal opinion, if you're going to be nonchalant about the electronics and features of your cars, don't put them in the car to begin with. They again, they appear to be "behind the time" if they don't have those features. So, they prefer to half-assed measures just so they can list a "feature" in marketing brochures.

One thing I have to do, is to tip my hat to the Japanese lux manufacturers. There's not one Acura, Lexus or Infiniti that I've been in that the tech hasn't worked the way it's supposed to. They put the effort and time in to make it work.

Speaking of which, just got off the phone with the Audi dealer. They still don't know what's wrong, but do have the MMI apart (assuming the dash is apart, as is the console since the MMI controller resides there). I inquired about the trans/Quattro binding issue. They haven't even begun that trouble shooting process. They did say the Audi "rep" is due to come in to look at my car. But, that's not until mid next week.

So, I'm still tooling around in their A6 2.0. While this is a nice car. It's not an Sx Audi vehicle. We had a dusting of snow this a.m. It did just fine. But, it's a big car. As good as the 4 cyl turbo is, (and it's really good), it's still hauling around a heavy car, and you feel it.

sweendogy · November 2013

That is the question? After a great run in the G- yes it's been 7 model years and 38k miles - my G finally gave me some trouble- the drivetrain belt (alternator belt?) shredded on the highway a few miles from work- was able to limp the car into the lot and had it towed to dealer for the 200bux repair. Made me think time for an upgrade? But then again it was only 200 bux to fix, but could this be the beginning of other more major issues to happen...I've never owned a car out of warrantee before- made me worry. Checked out the new q in the dealership, nice looking rig but the consumer reports article still rates the g higher. Plus they are not cheap and few deals around this far. 2 other options a cpo 335x (pre new body) or a cpo Audi s4. Both have great warranties - both great performers - but hearing the recent take on s4 issues has me worried, along with costs of course. Could wait a year and do the s3, sure is a looker - prob tops out around 50k - has enuf hp to an low end grunt- but can I wait- love hearing the experience thou from the masses.

markcincinnati · November 2013

Although I wasn't as active a participant here (and elsewhere) whilst I had my 2012 Acura TL SH-AWD Advance, I was a frequent reader of the postings and musings of those who participated those "lonely" 28 months.

I would not hesitate to recommend an Acura such as the one I had -- I would, however, try to put things into perspective for someone shopping for one of these ELLPS vehicles. The Acura was ______________ (fill in the blank with some mostly positive comments) and it remains an attractive car considering its price and (at the time) considering the fact that it is/was heavily discounted (13% off sticker in my case). I will still remember it as Acura's S4 (despite the fact that few would ever cross-shop the two cars).

If you're looking to enter into ELLPS land "on the cheap" I would say you can't do better than go for one of the current TL SH-AWD versions (the FWD version, however, does not qualify). However, in response to comments about Acura's "tech/electronics" working (apparently compared to Audi's MMI+), well I know it is a "nit" but the voice response software (at least in mine) would not function according to the owner's manual. I called Acura and took my car to the dealer (who had an Acura tech super user as a sales rep) -- both sources say the voice activation did have "bugs" in it. Moreover, when I asked Acura if there would be a fix, they said "no updates are in the pipeline at this time."

I have (remembering that I have had three different MMI cars since 2005) had my "MMI OS" -- what I would call "windows for the car" updated once on the 2005 and once on the 2009 -- and nothing so far on the 2014. I never had and still have never had any issues with my MMI+ equipped Audis. And, everything works.

On my Acura, for example, the car can have the voice activation system set to a REALLY annoying configuration where the voice system essentially mimics everything you say after you say it and before it does it. It can be turned off (same thing on my wife's 2011 Infiniti FX) -- when the voice prompt system is turned to "minimalist" mode, it is pretty easy to live with since it doesn't delay and doesn't parrot back your commands as if you might not really have meant what you asked of it. But, when in minimalist mode, functions (voice commands) that the manual says work . . .won't.

The Acura has no clock that is easy to locate at a glance. However, it has a feature that allows you to simply ask, out loud, "what time is it?" And, the voice system recites the correct time. I thought it was a fairly neat little command that I often used when I was alone in the car and, well, er -- SPEEDING. I could, without hunting on my wrist or the dash panel simply say "what time is it?" The system would comply and tell me the time of day.

However, this feature was "disabled" (and Acura said it should work regardless of the setting of the voice system to "annoying" mode) unless the voice response system was set to "long mode" (annoying mode).

Another annoying feature was the phone number input (by voice) which would inevitably put a zero in front of the number I was dialing -- or sometimes it would put a "#" sign and announce the character as "POUND."

Overall, the Acura system worked fairly well -- but there were more quirks in it than in any of my 3 Audis or my wife's tech package FX. Over the course of 28 months, I rarely used the voice command capability because it was either a little frustrating or annoying to use. MMI, by comparison is almost like "natural language" (almost).

The Infiniti system, too, rarely gets it wrong and doesn't require any time at all to learn to use.

The point, belabored for sure, is that I (a voice of one) found the Acura system "more trouble than it was worth" and also a system that wasn't nearly as intuitive as my wife's BMW (2008) or her 2011 Infiniti or any Audi I've had with the voice feature.

To each his/her own to be sure -- but I'm all for updating the tech systems on these cars ASAP and with as much frequency as it takes to get the bugs out. :surprise:

DILYL

markcincinnati · November 2013

I'm so far beyond biased, it makes everything I say possibly specious -- but I remain, after all, "Often wrong, but NEVER uncertain" -- but here goes:

Audi -- if you hold much stock in CR has moved up the "reliability" ratings with each passing year, arriving recently as the #4 ranked vehicle with respect to reliability. I would say that CR is good at the collecting of a good sized sample which makes them a very good resource for objective data (such as reliability and one would think durability, too.)

Generally speaking, "everyone wants to be Audi" -- or so says at least one or two "Car & Driver" type magazines when they wax poetic about auto brands in recent months.

Remarkably too, Audi's cars keep coming in close to the top or at the top of the heap in comparison tests. Most recently the A6 3.0T schooled its most worthy competition and even beat the new CTS (and the CTS's target was the BMW 5, which, in this case it did beat -- but so did the Mercedes in the test.)

Since everything does go in cycles, I would say, even with my considerable bias, "this can't last." Now is the time to make a move and get the Audi before it begins what -- eventually -- will be "slippage." Moreover, if you want something that has been modified and modified and slightly refreshed (last year) meaning it is perhaps the "best one ever," I would think you would be hard pressed to build a better mousetrap than a 2014 A4 OR S4. Now, I may eat my words, but my '14 S4 is an absolute joy to drive. It is damn near a "masterpiece."

How I hope that the S4 may be tested (as was the BMW 3) against everyone's favorite newcomer -- the Lexus IS 350 F-Sport (my first choice in this class when I thought the S4 would be out of reach financially.)

In any case, the new Q50 seems to have missed the mark if you believe at least 3 auto enthusiast magazines and CR, so your choices are somewhat limited unless you want to re up for a new (last MY) G37X/Sport.

Now may be the time "to Audi."

But, like I said, I'm biased -- often wrong, just NOT uncertain.

DILYL

nyccarguy · November 2013

Sorry to here about your recent trouble with the G. Glad to hear you were able to make it off the highway to safety & get the car towed to the dealer OK. All things considered, $200 isn't that bad of a repair bill at all.

I think you should take a look at a (pre new body) 335xi. Coming from the G, you'll LOVE the power. Let us know how it goes!

markcincinnati · November 2013

Test drive a 2014 Audi S4 S-Tronic. Then, let us all know your reaction.

leoblue · November 2013

As far as technology advancement is concerned, I still don't understand why my $2100 NAV option on my 2013 BMW 328 doesn't speak out the name of the streets (text-to-speech) while my 5 years old $200 Garmin has been doing it for 5 years.

Worse, it looks like BMW realized the driver's need to know exactly when to turn so engineers have thought of placing a bar on the monitor that gets shortened as you approach the turn 800ft-600ft-200ft. I tried and bitterly found out that it's pretty dangerous to glue my eyes to the monitor to follow the bar but if not, I'd miss the turn once in a while. Is that some kind of German thought process in display here?

flightnurse · November 2013

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/2014-cadillac-cts-36-vs-audi-a6-bmw-535i- -mercedes-e350-comparison-test-review?src=spr_FBPAGE&spr_id=1458_32820635

graphicguy · November 2013

Thanks, FN. Having driven an A6, albeit one with the 4 cyl turbo, for 3 weeks, I can't disagree with any of the C&D assessments. In fairness, I haven't driven the new CTS, nor the new E350. I drove a 535i during the BMW drive event. And, I agree that it feels like a ponderous brick on the road (except, I too like the 3.0 Turbo motor, but more in a 3 series than the bigger, heavier 5).

I wish my issues with the S4 weren't so confounding. And, that Audi's efforts to fix it weren't so feeble. I might consider another Audi. As it stands, I'm going to battle with them.

robr2 · November 2013

...I saw at least 3 of them yesterday. In fact, I believe I saw more of them than 3's but I may be immune to noticing the latter since there are so many of them.

markcincinnati · November 2013

Finally, finally, the SQ5 which we technically ordered before the S4 is in and ready to drive home.

We went ahead and took one "on the boat" so we ended up with an SQ5 Prestige with Magma Red leather and Panther Black paint ($1,075 option: OUCH!).

These two S cars are the quickest vehicles I have ever driven -- save for a Corvette I rented for a day for a friend's birthday. Now that I have 2,000 miles on the S4 it seems to be coming into that "first wind" that every Audi seems to get fully at about 5,000 miles and again around 10,000 miles.

My wife asked me to floor the S4 on an entrance ramp here on the I-275 loop that surrounds Cincinnati -- before I knew it, and before I even ran out of ramp, I was at 90mph. I had to slow down to merge for pity's sake.

Somehow the tuning of the SQ5's 8-speed Tiptronic seems to resemble the S-Tronic in the S4 pretty closely. The SQ5 shifts more often (duh!) and at full throttle makes those same fart sounds at shift points just like the S4.

Combining military grade power with luxury is no mean feat -- but Audi has done it again with the SQ5. We even test drove a Cayenne (which costs more) and it didn't have the power and urge of the SQ5. It seems to get this much power in a Cayenne you have to resign yourself to a 6 figure purchase. We got my wife's SQ5 at 6% off sticker plus $1,000 loyalty bonus.

The S cars will look pretty cool sitting in the garage, too: hers is black and mine is white.

We went ahead and got the 20" Audi OE inch wheels (it came with 21"'s which you can't get all season UHP tires in the correct size) and we had the dealer take off the stock summer only tires and replaced them with new Continental Extreme Performance DWS UHP A/S's.

Driving it home for good, tonight at 6PM. Can't wait.

Good bye 2011 Infiniti FX35 (which btw has been a very good car, but one that my wife says, "ain't got no soul.") :surprise:

DILYL

carnaught · November 2013

Mark, all I can say is: niiiiiice.....!!

Hope you guys enjoy many safe miles.

flightnurse · November 2013

So I guess Audi hasn't fixed your issues with your car.

In regards to the CTS, I was in Ft Lauderdale and San Diego this week and at National Car Rental I spoke to the manager of both locations and was told they are expecting the new 2014 CTS by Jan.. So once I get one I'll post what I think. I had a 2014 ATS Performance in San Diego. Even though the ATS "handles" better then the 3 series, I liked the overall "package" that the 3 series offers. The ATS is too small for my liking, this was the issue I had with my 328i. I believe the F30 is the right size, I can carry 4 adults without them being cramped in the rear seats.

andres3 · November 2013

Working on 300 miles thus far. Taking it easy so far, but the car is simply in one word to summarize "impeccable."

markcincinnati · November 2013

Andres3 -- wait until you get over 1,000 miles on the OD; at that mileage the power improves and the fuel consumption drops. I did notice a slight decrease in the oil level (on the MMI screen), but the indicator still says "OK."

If this is your first Audi, you will be getting 2 new ones in the future. Your "second" new Audi will come to your garage (at no extra charge) at 5,000 miles (or so) and then you will find yet another new Audi at 10,000 miles. Now, I say this never having had an Audi supercharged engine, but every other Audi I've ever had (4, 5, 6 or 8 cylinder, naturally aspirated or forced induction) repeated the "rebirth" at the noted mileage. Never had the same experience with the various Acura, Infiniti or BMW's we have had over the years.

WE almost always do this: "I wish" I had configured the sport differential on my order; "I wish" 19" wheels with A/S UHP tires were offered as an option; "I wish" the tracking headlights were offered on the P+ S4 (like are on my wife's new Prestige SQ5); and I wish the A/S tires were not simply Grand Touring models, but UHP's like we put on the SQ5 (Continental DSW's). But, even without my wish list, this is (these two cars -- my S4 and her SQ5 are) the best Audis ever, AND my (and my wife's) most favorite cars -- ever.

Every time I push the start button, put the car in dynamic mode (which actually the car "remembers" from the first time) and take off, I am impressed by the seemingly intuitive transmission and the sense of an almost unlimited well of horsepower and torque. Now that I have 2,000 miles on mine, I am unafraid to floor the accelerator, and find it to be an absolute rush every time I do.

And, don't you just love the little fart sound the thing makes when it shifts?

Lets us know YOUR driving impressions as you: Drive It Like You Live.

flightnurse · December 2013

So I haven't been traveling so much for work, out of state (that is), but have been working in Tucson. On my trips down and back, I have been averaging 36 MPG, this is doing anywhere between 55-80. The traffic between these cities have gotten really back over the years. Before you could set the cruise at 80 and just go.

So for thanksgiving, I went over to San Diego to see my dad, I-10 west, through Palm Spring, Riverside, and down the I-15 to San Diego. Weather was clear, temps in the mid to high 60s for most of the trip, no A/C needed. Average speed was 75, I averaged 38.5 MPG (car trip computer), however, when I filled up the car took 12 gallons at 460 miles (38.3 mpg), on the way home, temps in the upper 70's to low 80's A/C average speed 80, 37.5 mpg (cars trip computer), 465 miles used 12.5 gallons which is 37.2 mpg. So the car's trip computer is fairly accurate in the MPG.

So a few thoughts on this car, I have 3800 miles on it (much higher then I thought I would have) but this is the nature of my work.

1) The start/stop feature, it is unnerving when you first get in the car and it stops. You get the WTF just happened. Now having the car for 2 months, it is second nature, doesn't bother me at all.

2) Power, the car is rated at "only" 180 hp, but in my daily driving and highway cruising, the power band and torque are set that one would be hard pressed to tell, my last rental was a 2014 Sonata, and while the standard engine make about 200hp, the 320i "felt faster" then the Sonata's. BTW, I just ordered the Stage 1 tuning kit for the 320, 30hp gain and 40 lbs of torque gain for $375. stage 2 is in beta test but from the prelim testing, on a 320i stage two add's another 20 hp and 30 lbs of torque for another $175. MPG is not to be affected at all with these upgrades under normal driving (well see about that.)

3) Handling and ride of the new F30 I read people's comments about the steering feel of the new F30, granted it does have the weighted feel of the E90 or the current 1 series and X1, but in daily driving one is really hard pressed to know the lack of feedback. I'm sure on the track it is a completely different story. The ride of the non-sport F30 is typical German, well controlled without it being too harsh, now, my E90 with the M sport pack and run flat tires wasn't so bad if the road was smooth, but as we all know, not many cities have ultra smooth road, and that combo get's tiresome after a while. Do I wish for better supportive seats, YES, but over all, no real complaints. I was not tired at all on my trip to San Diego, my first stop is always just north palm spring which takes about 4 hours to get, no sore butt or fatigue at all.

Has BMW last some of the edge that the 3 series had, yes, BMW was always more of a "sport" sedan, then a "luxury" sedan but the people with the money (buyers) want more luxury which is fine, but I think BMW can make both sides happy without really compromising too much, I just hope they find the happy medium.

Some grips about what has become of the 3 series, when building a new 3 series, the only two interior color one can get with the sport pack is black or red. If you want other colors you have to get the M sport pack, Luxury model or standard. I wish the enhanced bluetooth and alarm was standard.

With that being said, I like the 320i, it does want I want it to do, the price was reasonable and the resale value of the 320i seems to high on it, but time will tell.

graphicguy · December 2013

Nice write up FN. Sounds like a very good car.

I know when I had mine, I thought the power was way under rated (at least from what BMW claimed). Sounds like they did the same with the 320i. I had the performance pack installed on mine for an extra 20 HP. Well worth the money.

Maybe the 320i is the spiritual successor to the 2002ti.

flightnurse · December 2013

Graphic, I think one of the factors I think people are missing is the fun factor of a car. I don't remember which magazine I was reading but one of them did a write up on the original 320 and the current 320.

It has been well known that the HP that the BMW's rates their cars are underrated.

flightnurse · December 2013

Here is all the info on the new cars.

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=923203

graphicguy · December 2013

Thanks FN. Interesting that BMW went with the double turbo 3.0 instead of the usual V8s they've used in the past.

Specs look pretty wicked. I like it.

Any idea on pricing? I was thinking if things keep going with the S4 the way they've been goind, I might be interested in the 235i M. But, this looks quite interesting, too.

flightnurse · December 2013

So far no pricing, but of course look for it to cost more then the out going model..

Here is the order sheet for the M cars

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=907004

I also agree with you that the 2 series M looks very nice, if the price could be kept under 50K I think BMW would have a major hit on their hands.

Major reason for the Twin Turbo 6

better MPG, BMW wont meet the CAFE that is set by our government, also driveability, the out going V8, thought nice, was really a dog in normal driving, from the reports of this new engine, one can drive it like a normal BMW in town and it wont have problems, the greater torque of the 6 will also allow BMW to get better MPG...

graphicguy · December 2013

Thanks FN....Do you know when the 235 M is supposed to hit the streets?

I think the $55K is the top end of my price threshhold. That means, the M3 is probably not going to be on my list. Matter of fact, I'd love to come in well under $50K. I'd stretch it if I was really bowled over by a car, but I'm fairly familiar with what's out there in those price ranges and feel confident I'm not going to get bowled over.

rayainsw · December 2013

'Do you know when the 235 M is supposed to hit the streets? '
Not FN, but everything I have seen says March.
According to the Ordering & Pricing guides, my selection
of options would result in MSRP = $47,425.
- Ray
Former BMW driver & very interested in the M235i.....

markcincinnati · December 2013

I had sent this "privately" and now I figure what the heck -- perhaps there is some merit in these remarks for others, too.

At $55,000 (net), you can easily get into a well-optioned 2014 Audi S4 Premium Plus. Clearly I don't know what would impress you -- and if this Audi doesn't do it for you, you can load up a IS 350 F-Sport and at full MSRP be @ less than $51,000. Of course of the two noted above, the S4 is the real performer with its sweet supercharged V6.

The torque steer is something to overcome in the Volvo S60 T6 (Type R) but it is tough to get this car OVER $50,000. It may not do it for you due to the obvious FWD bias, but it is worth a test-drive if you're in the market at this dollar amount.

So, while $55K won't get us into the SUPERCAR realm, we do have a number of choices that will stay under this price cap. It's a great time to be in the market (the $50K+ market) if you ax' me.

DILYL (and Merry Christmas)

graphicguy · December 2013

Mark...I replied privately, at least that's what I thought with the new Forums now in place.

Don't get me wrong, I think the S4 is one of the best 4 door sports sedans on the market, regardless of price. But, mine has been very trouble prone (it's sitting at the dealership yet again right now).

The Chicago Regional Rep, took over communications from the dealer I purchased it from. And, he's supposed to be in communication with the local dealer. I think the local dealer is just as frustrated with the local Audi Regional Rep as I am.

We're well over the "30 day" rule of the car being out of commission. So, I think they're all huddling, trying to decide the next step to take.

I'll wait to see what they do. So far, everyone except the local Audi Regional Rep have been great to work with.

I "think" I know which diretion this will end up, but you never know. That said, if they do end up "lemon" lawing my car, I'll obviously be in a scramble to get something else. What that is, I really don't know.

Ray...I do like that 235i M. But, I doubt that will be in my time bracket if they do a buy back.

I may make a little trip around this weekend looking at different cars, just for kicks.

markcincinnati · December 2013

I have, in this forum, shared my experiences with my 2012 Acura TL SH-AWD Advance. I did suggest that I understood and largely agreed with the July '10 Automobile comparison of a TL (SH-AWD) with an Audi S4 (with the sport differential – Audi's torque vectoring rear diff).

Refresher (from Automobile, July 2010): “You probably never thought of the Acura TL SH-AWD and the Audi S4 on the same day, much less in the same sentence. . . .significantly, they both use torque-vectoring all-wheel-drive systems to ensure that they don't sacrifice one iota of the corner-carving thrills you've grown to love.”

“In a [non-permissible content removed]-for-tat comparison between two cars that share the same driveline philosophy, it quickly becomes obvious that the Acura and the Audi are significantly different only in the details.”

Now, with 3,000+ miles on my '14 S4 and after 40,000+ miles with my TL, I can offer my 2¢ more.

First, let’s get the “as owned “ MSRP’s out there. With rear parking sensors, upgraded tires (UHP a/s's) and splash guards, the TL SH-AWD Advance comes in a bit south of $48,000. Approximately comparably equipped (but sans the sport differential) the S4 Premium+ easily sweeps past $57,000, coming in at $57,650 (without Premium paint, which could have added additional $, had I selected one of the many optional colors offered.) My '12 Acura came with the color called Bellanova White Pearl while the Audi I configured was in a glossy hue they call Ibis White. A metallic white option on the Audi would have added another $550 to the MSRP.

If you’re keeping score, the Audi starts out about $10,000 more than the Acura similarly contented. But simply saying they have similar content somehow makes the Audi seem expensive, a perspective I have come to believe is untrue. As the Automobile review declares, “[they] are significantly different only in the details.” Never a truer statement was said about these two cars. And, please, don’t for a minute think that somehow this is a knock on the Acura.

Indeed, considering its performance & content, the TL SH-AWD Advance_ is_ rather a bargain (and I mean what I say only about the SH-AWD Advance version – what I say should not suggest I would make these remarks about other TL configurations). Perhaps were I given the opportunity to test a TL with both SH-AWD and the manual transmission, I would change my opinion.

The Audi is neither over-priced nor is it a bargain – but, considering its price, it is unlikely you will find the S4’s luxury content and performance envelope replicated without spending thousands more. The current heart-throb car, the Lexus IS 350 F-Sport, offers a very high contented, audaciously styled machine to be sure, but its performance isn’t up to the S4’s; in fairness, however, an F-Sport even over loaded with optional stuff, will have trouble breaking the $50,000 MSRP barrier.

There is, currently, no BMW 3-series M car (if you don’t include the 3-series” M” convertible, starting at $69,050, which I am not counting) – and if there were, it too would easily sail through a $65,000 price; besides, the comparison to the S4 would be incorrect, the BMW M would be more accurately compared to an RS – not S – Audi car.

Back to the TL vs the S4. Both cars do what they do well – at their respective price points. The Acura – subjectively – may well represent/possess over 90% of the Audi’s performance. And, for the money asked, the Acura remains perhaps one of the biggest bargains today in the ELLPS category (assuming you can get over the exterior – and for some, the interior – styling).

Here is what you get for your extra $10,000+ in the Audi S4: a palpable sense that anything and everything you want the car to do is effortless. From the S-Tronic’s apparent ability to read the driver’s mind, to an incredibly deep bucketful of power that is always ready a ¼ of a second before you ask for it, to an ability to corner that approaches violating the laws of physics, the S4 almost becomes an extension of the driver’s mind, rather like Green Lantern’s power-ring, I suspect.

In contrast, the TL SH-AWD is not quite as much the natural athlete as the S4 – although it has nothing to be ashamed of, it’s just that to get 90% of the S4’s performance out of the TL, you have to work at it. Here’s one reason why: the TL’s well of torque isn’t as deep as the Audi’s and the TL’s torque doesn’t reach full-boil until significantly higher RPM’s (the TL's V6 is naturally aspirated vs the S4's supercharged V6). The consequences of less torque attained at higher RPM’s twisting through 6 (automatic) gears are not subtle – the Acura must be kept “cranked up” to get the most out of it. While doing this can be pretty rewarding, it is hardly effortless.

Another huge disadvantage the TL has is its 6 speed traditional (it uses a torque converter) automatic transmission. The Audi’s 7-speed direct shift (twin-clutch) transmission by comparison feels as if the smoothest stick shift driver ever is selecting the perfect time for upshifts and downshifts. Coming to a stop, the Audi’s transmission downshifts both at the appropriate time but also with incredible precision and smoothness that I doubt any one of us contributors here could even come close to.

In the final analysis, the 2012 TL SH-AWD Advance is a lot of car for the money – and I would still call it Acura’s S4. For $47,000+ there isn’t much – if anything – that comes close to the content and performance offered (if you can get past its unique styling and busy button-laden cockpit.) I had mine 40,000+ miles over less than a 30 month time period and other than what I assumed were weak brakes (the rotors were turned twice before 25K miles before the dealer determined the problem was three warped wheels which Acura replaced – at a 50% discount to me), the Acura would certainly seem to be well on its way to living up to its reputation for reliability – but at only 40,000 miles I assume most cars on the market today would still seem young.

The 2014 S4 presumably produces performance numbers that bests the TL in almost every category, but for an additional $10,000 it ought to. The S4 does seem more substantive than the TL – of course you only really notice this aspect when you slam the doors or hit a pot-hole or find yourself on a “washboard” road surface. The Acura’s body seems to be of a thinner metal than the Audi, the TL's suspension upon rapid compression or over undulating surfaces seems on the verge of being brittle where the Audi, under similar circumstances, seems to absorb and rebound from rough surfaces with aplomb.

If you’re looking for the TL to buy you much – if any – street cred from your buds, don’t count on it. Virtually everyone I know called my TL, “Mark’s Honda.” Truth be told, the main problem with the Acura – for me – was that it simply had “too much Honda” in it. Some years ago, Audis were sometimes said to have “too much VW” in them – regardless of the truth, the perception was sufficient, apparently, to motivate Audi to separate themselves as much as they could from VW. Thus far, Acura’s are often thought of as “Honda’s who know somebody.”

More’s the pity, for the TL (at least) is a kind of “almost” car – it is almost many things: almost a luxury car, almost a sporty car – i.e., almost an LPS car. I can recommend the TL SH-AWD Advance for its likely street price (I got mine at nearly 13% off); the car is comfortable, well contented and highly competent at most, if not all, of the things we ask for in a premium vehicle.

It didn’t inspire much passion and, frankly, didn’t seem to actually have been built to be passionate. The S4 inspires and it has passion – its “fun to drive factor,” which seems to be priced at about $10,000, has been abundantly imbued by its creators. Even after a crappy day, driving the S4 puts a smile on my face.

That’s my story . . . and . . you know.

DILYL

hercules00 · December 2013

Infiniti has done many, many things to destroy its bread and butter - the awesome G37 - with the new Q50. The list of things is endless, from destroying what was likely the best handling vehicle in its class to a ridiculous dual touchscreen interior.

For the sake of argument, let us say there was some logic behind those moves - some new audience that legacy G drivers like me (and almost all reviewers) do not understand.

But can anyone explain why Infiniti felt the need to dump the G's trademark double-circular taillight arrangement to replicate the taillights of the Sonata? Was it their way of going 'upscale'?

Sonata

Q50

carnaught · December 2013

I don't know. I don't see it that way. To me the Q50 looks more updated and upscale. The G, although handsome, was getting old.

markcincinnati · December 2013

I agree with the comments about the beauty of the new Q50. I think it is very handsome on the outside and both inside and out it seems more upscale befitting its inclusion with its competition from Audi, BMW, Cadillac, Lexus & Mercedes to name a few.

The issues with the Q50 seem NOT to be with its comeliness, rather with its steering feel or lack thereof. Other critiques seem to remind the reader that the 3.7L normally aspirated engine -- while somewhat more sound isolated in the Q50 -- is "coarse" and that the 7-speed transmission is a carryover.

Now, having just turned in our 2011 FX35 after 60,000 miles, I would say even if there were no improvements in the transmission in the Q50, that it is a fine transmission. Likewise, the 3.7L engine is powerful even if not particularly blessed with an abundance of torque. After driving the new Q50, the "thrash" and coarseness often attributed to this engine has been muted significantly, but, this mill isn't up to the smoothness of the German 6-cylinder engines and one wonders why Infiniti hasn't noticed (apparently) that forced induction engines are the currently favored configuration.

Overall, the Infiniti (at least this first venture out with the new Q50) seems unlikely to be finishing as the top choice against its German and Japanese competitors. I assume Infiniti was shooting to be the darling of the ELLPS set, but came up short compared to the Lexus IS 350 [F Sport, especially].

From a styling perspective, I find the Q50 to be handsome; it looks expensive. The IS 350 is, well, "edgy" with its audacious styling and spindle grill. The IS looks like it would be sporty (to me, at least), whereas the Q50's style might well be more enduring since -- compared to the IS -- it is more conservative, less in-your-face. Here's something, too, the ATS -- right out of the gate -- seems to have gotten a lot MORE right than the Q50, despite what many could have assumed was a head-start what with the Q50 coming from such good stock (the G37X).

Now, at least here in Cincinnati, the Q50 seems to be subvented and discounted so heavily, that they ought to be flying out of the showroom. I have never seen one on the road (other than near the dealership where they are obviously being test-driven.

This is pretty amazing, considering that I have seen the outrageously priced Audi RS 7 -- a car so rarified that I actually wouldn't consider not seeing it as indicative of anything. Not once seeing a Q50 is -- speaking as a fan of the brand -- well, sad.

Hopefully Johan de Nysschen, the new Infiniti president, will be able to imbue future Infinitis with some of the Audi Magic he most certainly picked up on over his 19 years with Audi.

Well, there's always next year -- I'd look for some under-the-covers changes for the Q50, sooner rather than later. But I could be wrong, just not uncertain.

DILYL

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