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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • speedracer3speedracer3 Member Posts: 650
    Bold styling can be an advantage or a curse. Take for example Nissan and BMW.

    BMW: their designs were generally appealing and handsome. Enter Bangle. Now their designs are so bold that you either love them or hate them, which will probably drive some loyal folks away. IMO... this is an example of the wrong kind of bold design.

    Nissan: Especially in the 90's their cars so bland and unappeling that Honda and Toyota nearly ate Nissan for lunch. Enter Renault. Yeah, the French influence made for some wacky designs, but then again Nissan needed to take chance to get back in the game. Bold design along with good product has paid off for Nissan.
  • riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    Do you want to turn heads merely because of looks (cars like CTS or new hemi 300C) or because people in the know know what a car can do (M3 or M5)? I'll take the latter over the former any time. Substance over style!
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,188
    Am I the only one that hates that styling? The Maxima and the Saturn Ion could be twins. At least they have toned it down in the Infiniti division.. I could live with that, but I'll pass on that bubble look.

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  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,188
    Didn't I just say we should quit discussing looks?

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  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    I don't think the new BMW designs are bold. The have kicked it up a notch for sure. Their older brothers, while still great looking, look tired by comparison. Different strokes for different folks.
  • rckyvntrrckyvntr Member Posts: 17
    "Do you want to turn heads merely because of looks (cars like CTS or new hemi 300C) or because people in the know know what a car can do (M3 or M5)? I'll take the latter over the former any time. Substance over style!"

    Isn't that akin to saying "My lover has a great personality and is great in bed"? If so, then yes, for some people, what is beyond the outward appearance is all that counts. For others, like me, it is important to at least ask "Why can't I have it all?"
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    "Do you want to turn heads merely because of looks (cars like CTS or new hemi 300C) or because people in the know know what a car can do (M3 or M5)? I'll take the latter over the former any time. Substance over style!"

    Reiz, look in the mirror and read your own lips:

    Not... a legit... comparison.

    No... apples... and oranges!!!

    ;-)
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    For others, like me, it is important to at least ask "Why can't I have it all?"

    One can have it all, but again it's about how you view it, not how others do. Most people say the Ferrari Modena is a great looking car. Or the Lambo cars are hot. To me they're pretty bland. I'd probably love a drive in one but it's not my kind of car.

    So again it seems it should go back to what you find to be be good looking, fun to drive and exciting. I can't grasp how the opinions of others should make a shred of difference in the purchase of a car. What others think of my car is the least important aspect of my car ownership experience.
  • scott1scott1 Member Posts: 50
    "PS - the CTS does stand out in terms of body style."

      I have to agree, but style is only part of the reason I went with a CTS. The Mercedes C class was too small, I drove an E320, which was a very comfortable size, and rode nice and smooth. It was also 58,000 as opposed to the 43,000 of my CTS, and didn't have the acceleration that the CTS has. What really scared me off of the E class was reading the horror stories about reliabilty over on the mercedes forum.
       I also checked out the Lexus...first the ES...a very quiet and refined car, but with no pretentions to sports car handling, and the rather blah looks of a Camry, and even the LS. The LS is a beautiful automobile, with a silky smooth engine and drivetrain, but again it's styling is rather bland,and it costs 58,000.

       The BMW 3 series was a smooth refined car,
    but again, a bit cramped for my tastes .

      The CTS fit the bill best for what I was looking for. Head turning style, first class sport sedan handling, a smooth refined engine and drive train, and a quiet comfortable interior and ride. The fact that there are lots more cadillac dealers in my area then mercedes, BMW, and Lexus dealers combined, didn't hurt either.
  • saugataksaugatak Member Posts: 488
    I agree with your assessment of Caddy's Art & Science theme. A little less height would make the car's proportions much better.

    I also think the corner angles are a little too sharp. Just a minor rounding/softening of the corner lines would have done the trick IMO.

    The Cien is a beautiful car. V12, 750HP, decent gas mileage due to DoD, what's not to like? If it makes it to production, it'll certainly spank BMW's 760i which itself is a wonderful car.

    I applaud Cadillac and Nisssan for being bold and original in their styling. Even if it doesn't quite work, it's a design that can be improved on and makes a striking contrast to what is out there today.

    I feel BMW tried to be bold and certain elements of Bangle's styling work well, but there seems to be no overall theme to Bangle's designs. The Bangle butt looks like it's just been slapped on. In darker colors, Bangle's front and sides look good, in lighter colors Bangle's front and sides look disproportionally large.

    I also don't think Bangle was that original. The front of the new BMW's (aside from the Dame Edna turn signals) look very much like Pontiacs, except that I like the Pontiac's proportions better.

    Pontiac's goal was to become a "poor man's BMW."

    First step of GM's plan . . . plant a mole within BMW to make BMWs look more like Pontiacs . . . mission accomplished.
  • riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    designman... My primary consideration is how well the car performs (for its price). Looks are secondary. And I really could care less what others think about my car. I don't buy cars to impress others. I buy them to enjoy the driving experience. Guess it is the difference between being seen in a car driving down a city street and being out in middle of nowhere driving on some great long and winding roads.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "Pontiac's goal was to become a "poor man's BMW."

    Yes, that is it. BMW does not design towards GM, GM designs toward BMW. BMWs bold and innovative designs in part are to pull away from the masses and imitators. The is no denying the heritage of these brilliant designs, but the Pontiac is the flavor of the month club.

    I saw somewhere else pictures of a Sebring against a 645. I was absolutely aghast at how similiar these cars looked. It was said that BMW was copying the Sebring. Then coincidentally somem time after, I saw a 645 and Sebring in the same general location in a parking lot and it was obvious these cars share the same traits as a Ferrari with a Hyundai. Pictures do lie. In person the hertiage of a Pontiac and a 5 series are also obvious.

    BMW should be flattered, after all imitation is the sincerest form of flatter.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    primary consideration is how well the car performs (for its price). Looks are secondary. And I really could care less what others think about my car. I don't buy cars to impress others. I buy them to enjoy the driving experience. Guess it is the difference between being seen in a car driving down a city street and being out in middle of nowhere driving on some great long and winding roads.

    Amen. Buying cars because they're "head-turning"...sounds like a self esteem issue.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Personally, I believe the 6 series is little more than a bloated Camry Solara.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    When a car must have 4 doors, a backseat, engine in the front, and a trunk in the rear, there is only so much a designer can do...especially in the entry-level class, where customers tend to be very conservative.

    Personally, I dislike styling that appears contrived (Cadillacs, Bangle Bimmers, Nissans)...styling that tries to make a statement or artificially evoke a feeling without regard to function. That's why I like the current 3 series, TSX/TL, and A4.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,188
    "Personally, I dislike styling that appears contrived (Cadillacs, Bangle Bimmers, Nissans)...styling that tries to make a statement or artificially evoke a feeling without regard to function. That's why I like the current 3 series, TSX/TL, and A4."

    Amen!!

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  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    absolutely agreed on that.
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,498
    that colour thing.

    Regardless of the capability of the vehicle, why must all of them be the same tint? My cars' manufacturer chose to delete the manual transmission two (or was it three) whole years into the experiment. Given that degree of commitment to serious sports sedans, I'm not surprised that the colour choice is so weak for the Lincoln LS. I'm not so sure what the issue is with the others.

    Apparently all in this class thinks that colours that stand out are offensive. Can we all say "lowest common denominator?"

    I knew we could.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • saugataksaugatak Member Posts: 488
    Come on. Looks may be secondary to performance but they still matter. You can't dismiss interior and exterior design as easily as that.

    A car is more than an engine mated to a transmission and bolted on to a frame.

    While enjoying the performance of a car, why not enjoy its beauty as well?
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Style is sculpture. Performance is dance. If you don't appreciate both for what they are, you could be missing out my friend, like a person who eats only steak and refuses to sample cuisine.

    And all of this has absolutely nothing to do with others think. I don't hear anyone around here talking about impressing others. The term "head turner " is pretty generic and benign—synonymous with "knockout", "butt-kicking", and the corny, callow, yet always enchanting "like totally awesome dude". Maybe you are reading too much into it.

    :-)
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    "I applaud Cadillac and Nissan for being bold and original in their styling. Even if it doesn't quite work, it's a design that can be improved on and makes a striking contrast to what is out there today."

    Well said. Yeah, they both bumble with some of their efforts but are getting things done. I would guess the Nissan/Infiniti design team has IQs ranging from 10 to 190, unlike BMWs which has a collective IQ of 2. Nissan just has to put Maxima out of its misery. With reservations on the front end G35 rocks—that 3/4 rear view is nice. Hey, have you seen this alleged Nissan GTR concept? Even if it's someone's hyperactive Photoshop imagination, I say find the guy and hire him!

    http://www.autospies.com/article/index.asp?articleId=3048&cat- - egoryId=10

    "The Cien is a beautiful car. V12, 750HP, decent gas mileage due to DoD, what's not to like? If it makes it to production, it'll certainly spank BMW's 760i which itself is a wonderful car."

    Saugatak, go easy man, you're messin' with the Apples 'n Orange [non-permissible content removed]. I'll come to your aid because I'll compare diamonds to hot dogs, but trust me, this one has trouble written all over it!

    ;-)
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    And all of this has absolutely nothing to do with others think. I don't hear anyone around here talking about impressing others. The term "head turner " is pretty generic and benign—synonymous with "knockout", "butt-kicking", and the corny, callow, yet always enchanting "like totally awesome dude". Maybe you are reading too much into it.


    no, the term head-turner means you want people to notice the car. you want comments. you want to be noticed. this is the precise reason I hate owning a BMW. Like many other makes it's got a reputation - a bad one - for being driven by uppity people seeking attention.

    The metal on the CTS screams, "Pay attention to me." As does the sheetmetal on most exotics. Many people are attacking pontiac precisely because they made the new GTO a stealth car that has no bling, that nobody watches the car pass and peers inside to see "who is driving that?".

    Looking for a car to be a head-turner is absolutely no different than painting a Civic pink, dropping it, fitting dubs and neon lights and topping it off with a big spoiler. It's all about attention.

    BTW, this is one reason I prefer the old M3. No gills. Nothing outwardly too different on the last gen M3. A debadged 03 M5 is the ultimate as it can stomp the hades out of most cars and it's pretty much nondescript. Different goals...I want to cruise anonymously with all the performance and power I can get. I don't want to be noticed. Apparently others do.
  • riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    Styling/design tends to be about today and the next 10 minutes. Just standing out. Making some bold statement. But only time will tell if the shape lasts and looks fresh in the future. True performance lasts forever.

    A classic, almost by definition, is a timelessly styled car that truly performs in comparison to the other cars out there. Think of the Porsche 356 and '57 Chevy. Or the Jaguar E-type, Corvette Stingray, and Aston Martin DB6 in the 1960s. The BMW 1600/1800/2002 in 1960s and 1970s. Maybe the Fiat X19 or Porsche 914/6 in the 1970s. Audi in the 1980s. Dodge Viper in the 1990s. Or the various 911s for about 30 plus years.

    There aren't that many design classics. Even normally beautiful exotic marques like Ferrari or Maserati have a ton of duds and mediocrities. (Can't say too many Italian cars after the 1960s impress me. Their exotics went down hill styling-wise in the 1970s.)

    Give me a conservatively styled car (possibly with a bright exterior color like red or yellow, for excitement) that is an all around performer. That is the car that stands the test of time for the average person.

    Now if only I could afford an M3 or M5!
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    "A debadged 03 M5 is the ultimate as it can stomp the hades out of most cars…"

    Could it be that "stomping the hades" out of other cars is also another way of seeking attention? Dealing with our insecurities? Validating ourselves?
  • saugataksaugatak Member Posts: 488
    no, the term head-turner means you want people to notice the car. you want comments. you want to be noticed. this is the precise reason I hate owning a BMW. Like many other makes it's got a reputation - a bad one - for being driven by uppity people seeking attention.

    I think you're being too judgmental and not sufficiently appreciative of esthetics.

    Lots of people (including myself) enjoy and appreciate beautiful things.

    I spend money redesigning the interior of my house b/c I enjoy living in a beautiful home.

    Every time I see a beautiful woman I always take a look b/c I like looking at beautiful women.

    When I see a beautiful car (for example, the upcoming Ford Mustang is just GORGEOUS IMO), I turn my head because I enjoy looking at it.

    Because someone is in a "head-turner" car doesn't necessarily mean that he is "craving attention." It could just be that person genuinely enjoys and gets pleasure out of the look of his car.

    And why do you care what people think of other BMW owners? As long as you enjoy driving it, to hell with what others think.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    "Give me a conservatively styled car (possibly with a bright exterior color like red or yellow, for excitement) that is an all around performer. That is the car that stands the test of time for the average person.

    Now if only I could afford an M3 or M5!"


    Alright Riez!! At least we agree on the M5, the sporty quality of red and yellow, and prudent maintenance habits!!!!

    ;-)
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "The metal on the CTS screams, "Pay attention to me."

    Yes it does, unfortunately it's the ugly duckling of the entry level luxo crowd. Unlike a BMW which just quietly sits it it's corner and says" "Look at me I'm handsome". The BMW doesn't scream, it gets noticed through it's timeless styling.

    Hey do you want red/purple spike hair (Caddy) or slicked-back grey-silver hair (BMW)?
  • dcwong1dcwong1 Member Posts: 54
    Is debadging a model name on the trunk lid another way of seeking attention? I've never understood why people debadge their vehicles. Can't people be happy with want they have?

    BTW, an M5 is easy to spot by the quad exhaust, side gills, and the front fascia.
  • cheerioboy26cheerioboy26 Member Posts: 412
    That autospies link is a Photoshop of an Opel. Someone on FA said " Look at the interior of both of these cars through the windshield as well as the A-pillar detail. What sold me was the little horizontal line that is reflecting light in the rear seat area of both cars.
    "

    compare with

    http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/large/1749-2.jpg

    Opel presented the Insignia, an automotive vision of the future and a design study with a new formal concept, for the first time at the Frankfurt International Motor Show (September 13 to 21, 2003).
  • rckyvntrrckyvntr Member Posts: 17
    The person who started this thread on Jun 17, I feel surprised, enlightened and thankful – all at the same time.

    I am surprised that the topic elicited such heated discussion. Everyone could have simply said “Go away … you’re blasphemous to have raised the issue. You just don’t understand.”

    I am also enlightened and thankful, because I have learned a lot by reading the responses.

    There is one thing I would like to clarify – while I can understand that this may be an issue of insecurity for some – it is not that way for me. I am a secure person, and I know what drives (no pun intended) my needs. When I use the term “head turning” I refer to the simple enjoyment and excitement one feels as she drives a vehicle that is so attractive that people’s heads turn.

    My dilemma is …on one hand, I feel very proud to be at a point in my life where I have a choice among the brands (Lexus, BMW, Infinity, Cadillac, Acura, etc.) of automobiles whose owners have included some of my mentors. On the other hand, I feel bored, resistant and unfulfilled when I think of advancing to a class whose vehicles are bland, common and cookie-cutter in their outward appearance.

    The very manufacturers of these automobiles demonstrate their recognition of the problem by their attempts to change – (ref: BMW’s Bangle; Cadillac’s Stealth theme, etc.). Additionally, owners (on this discussion board and among those with whom I have spoken) demonstrate, by their heated dialogue, that the issue is alive and unresolved.

    My hope is that, when this discussion concludes, everyone gains from it. I know I have gained tremendous insight. Thank you.
  • jazevedojazevedo Member Posts: 34
    I don't understand the desire to be stealth. Unless you happen to race people alot on a daily basis? I've driven a 94 Mustang GT for 7 years so I've never been one to try to impress other people with my car, but as soon as I get my 330i with performance package, you won't find me removing the "badge" or swapping out those awesome 18 inch wheels for some boring 17's to go stealth. I think it's okay to want people to like your car's looks. It's a big purchase, so wanting some turned heads doesn't make a person pathetic in my opinion.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Could it be that "stomping the hades" out of other cars is also another way of seeking attention? Dealing with our insecurities? Validating ourselves?

    Nope, it's like carrying a nuclear weapon. You know if push comes to shove you've got the means to finish off anything that gets started. Beyond that, for road trips nothing beats a car that can cruise in the 90s or 100s with ease.

    I spend money redesigning the interior of my house b/c I enjoy living in a beautiful home.

    I do that to up the resale value. In fact I'm about to add 200 sq ft to my house for more than aesthetics...when homes are going fo over 400/sq ft you can see the ROI. :)

    Is debadging a model name on the trunk lid another way of seeking attention? I've never understood why people debadge their vehicles. Can't people be happy with want they have?

    Actually it's common in europe as people think it's ostentatious to have the badge of the car on display. I'd remove mine but the car is a lease.

    BTW, an M5 is easy to spot by the quad exhaust, side gills, and the front fascia.

    No gills on the 03 and earlier M5s. That's something BMW has added to the 3 and next gen M5. Bummer. As for the quad tail pipes...most people couldn't tell if the car that sat in front of them at a light had 1 2 or 20 pipes.

    I don't understand the desire to be stealth. Unless you happen to race people alot on a daily basis?

    Why not just a desire to go unnoticed?
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Cheerioboy26…
    Good spot. Yeah I do remember that Opel and definitely liked it. I find it amazing how good concept cars never make it to production. I would also say the other guy is an excellent Photoshop artist. I think there is enough talent out there that is worth seeking. Then again, auto manufacturers have to work on their decision making. I have to believe they just turn chicken and perceive many concepts as too radical. And I am not convinced they are using focus groups scientifically hence effectively. It's hard to say though because they are very protective of such information.

    Jazevado…
    I think stealth has mostly to do with speed laws, avoiding the man. Also, there is a modesty factor—being enthusiastic about performance driving without pounding one's chest, like Jason Kidd laying up instead of having to slam dunk on a breakaway. I appreciate flashy cars, but there's something tantalizingly sexy about an M5, like a gorgeous woman whose beauty can't be hidden by conservative clothing and lack of makeup.

    "She don't know she's beautiful,
    She ain't that kind."

    -Sammy Kershaw


    Blueguy…
    Yeah I like the idea of debadging. It annoys me when cigar smokers leave the label on, especially the ones who smoke them routinely. Some guys just seem to wear a sign that says "look at me I'm smoking a Cohiba." A while back I played golf with some guy who had questionable social skills. The words came unedited, from his brain straight to his mouth. Out of no where he tells me "take the label off your cigar". Usually I do but I just happened to forget in a rush to get to the tee. I laughed and told him, sorry, you are very right. Actually it was a refreshing encounter. I guess there's something to be said about candor. And I never forgot to take a label off after that. Actually I stopped smoking them for quite some time. Talk about things that aren't the same anymore.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "Blueguy…Yeah I like the idea of debadging. It annoys me when cigar smokers leave the label on,"

    Okay, that answers that question. :)
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,188
    I'm not sure why I like it, but I do... A Boxster passed me the other day... Not one thing on it to give you a clue. No Porsche crest on the hood... As near as I could tell, no crests on the wheels, and absolutely nothing on the rear.

    It was just a very cool.... CAR

    It is the "anti gold package"

    regards,
    kyfdx

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  • dcwong1dcwong1 Member Posts: 54
    I must be like you. I'm not into the "gold package" offered by a lot of the Japanese company. If you want to be seen, the shape and body of the car should speak for itself.

    Concerning the Boxster, it seems like everything on the car is an option. Great car to drive but pricey.

    IMO, a car's line should still be fresh 5 years down the road and not be seen as the latest fad. It seems like the A4, 3-series, and the C-class will age gracefully while the CTS and possibly the G35 will need new body work. Not sure about the TL.
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,498
    a vehicle that expresses my personal preference for colour, handles & performs well and has long-term reliability.

    How anyone else views it is beyond tertiary. When I look at my car, assuming it's something I really like, as opposed to something I can (barely) tolerate, there's a visceral difference, particularly when it comes time to get another.

    That bland business tends to dilute emotions of this sort.

    Bottom line: the vast majority of the people who acquire cars in this class have no concept of performance or any of the other things that Edmunds people find so important. Those of us here are a vocal but completely irrelevant minority.

    Would that it were not so.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • saugataksaugatak Member Posts: 488
    also make a statement?
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Very interesting discussion about styling.

    I initially thought the CTS was the ugliest thing to hit the road. While the car still isn't a classically good looking car in my book, they did nail the proportions. The only thing left to do with the next generation is to smooth out some of the harsh lines and sharp points. I don't like cars that look as though they will cut your hands if you try to feel the sheetmetal. They may have done just that (smooth out the edges/sharpness) with the 2005 STS, but the theme may not work as well on a larger car. I'll have to see the STS in person to determine that.

    It is now official. I love the look of the new Chrysler 300C. I saw a few of these this past weekend. Rolling in a sea of forgettable, boring car this car really stands out. It looks like a pure gangsta car through and through. I don't know where everyone else lives, but in the Chicago area this is the hottest car on the street right now. Everyone one from older couples to young fill in the blank wannabes adore, desire and are buying this car. This is bold American styling at its best. I love it. With a SRT-8 version coming and awd, they may keep the sales going for quite a while. I don't have to tell you how bad Chrysler needed a "hit".

    BMW. Not sure what to say here other than that they've probably ruined one of the top 5 most recognizable design languages in all of cardom. I still at 3 years later detest the 7-Series. The 5-Series is little better, especially in darker colors, but it still gets smoked by the E-Class in styling. The 6-Series if there ever was a car who's whole look was ruined by one element, that big old square [non-permissible content removed]! BMW really better ask themselves about what they want for the 2006 3-Series.

    The Acura TL comes so close to being a styling star, but no cigar. Contrived and messy styling imo. That character line and those side sills don't work together. Dealers here are adding protective strips right below that charater line, creating a true mess. Factory mud flaps, yuck. Honda it seems is destined to style every 4-door car they make like some variation of an Accord. Witness the 2005 RL. Giant Accord. The TSX remains the best looking Acura, imo.

    I'm slightly worried about a company that seemingly could do no wrong when it came to styling, Audi. They're going to put the new grille on everything by 2006. Not sure about that. I liked the new grille design on the A8L W12 but I've yet to see the new A6 and facelifted A4. Careful. The current A6 had no styling rival in it's class until the 2003 E appeared, imo. The 1998-2004 was just perfect in that sense to me.

    Nissan is hit or miss stylistically now. The Maxima is a mess inside and out. The Murano and Quest are messes inside, either cheap or just plain weird. The Altima was good looking in 2002, but has since blended in. Nothing tops the Passat in the family segment in styling for me.

    Just a few thoughts....

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I've always thought that BMW, Mercedes and Audi did the conservative, but handsome thing better than anyone else. All three have had their high points with this them, arguably with Audi and Mercedes at least now being most successful with it since BMW has gone off in another direction with their latest cars.

    VW's Touareg and Phaeton are just so classically handsome to me. Volvos always kinda wore their functionality first until now. The styling was drawn and shaped around the safety cage.

    M
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Nice post Merc (#2431). A thought just occurred to me regarding the 300C. I think it's ugly, but it's not flaky ugly. Rather it's funky ugly giving it appeal. Ever watch a butcher grind chopmeat? I can't help but picture chopmeat coming out of that grille. Also if it ever needs replacement, no problem, just pick up any highway sewer grid and bolt it on. Man the steely stare of that grille is something else, bewildering in it's simplicity and lack of sophistication. 300C in a nutshell—yeah just gimme a big ol' car with 4 wheels. Style? What's that?
  • chrisbothchrisboth Member Posts: 493
    "IMO, a car's line should still be fresh 5 years down the road and not be seen as the latest fad. It seems like the A4, 3-series, and the C-class will age gracefully while the CTS and possibly the G35 will need new body work. Not sure about the TL."

    The G body work is being incorporated into the new and quite stunning M45. It's safe to say that those design lines will be with us for a while. Thank god! Like the CTS, the G35 is DIFFERENT and not like it's euro competitors. That's where opinions differ.

    Some think "if it ain't like what I'm used to from Bavaria then it can't be good and then there are those of us who want to look different and unlike what people want and expect ...some not really caring about what the car says as long as when they/I look at thier 35-45k car it looks beautiful to them/Me. Just like your wife/other, YOU are the one who has to live with it so you better like it.

    Apparently enough people go against the euro brainwashing of what a car should look like that both the G and the CTS are considered wild sucesses. If they didn't sell them they wouldn't restyle the entire lineups to look like them.

    Dam straight blueguy....many people here have issues admitting they just like to stomp on it once in a while and see what she's got compared to the other guy. Several generations of enthusiasm come from just that little ego boost of passing a snot nosed _________ driver who got under your skin on the highway. We're not all ashamed to admit it at least....why else do we need near 300 hp cars that go 155? To get to the hospital in an emergency ...pleeeeeeeeze. ITt's to nuke the other guy when he deserves it!
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "I initially thought the CTS was the ugliest thing to hit the road."

    Merc - it was and still is although I've warmed up to the styling of the G35.

    As I said previously I liked the new designs of the new BMW out of the gate, especially the 645, which is a gorgeous car inside and out.

    I like the new styling of Audi - the old "ouch"di never did anything for me.
  • elevatorguyelevatorguy Member Posts: 87
    I am looking at a used (1993) 318i for my wife. It has high mileage (150k) but was well taken care of. It's a 5-speed. I would like to know if these were/are reliable vehicles and what to look for before buying? What are some of the weak points of the car? Are these interference engines? I know they use timing chains, not belts, but how often should these chains be replaced? Anything special that I should take a close look because of know failures? Anything in particular that is very expensive to fix that I should look at also to make sure it's not going to need replacing soon? Any comments and opinions ae welcome and appreciated.

    Thanks,
    Todd
  • chrisbothchrisboth Member Posts: 493
    A 150,000 mile BMW as a reliable car - not even a honda accord is THAT reliable at 150k unless well taken care of. If you want a high mileage car that is reliable only a couple things come to mind: Honda Toyota Acura
  • scott1scott1 Member Posts: 50
    "I initially thought the CTS was the ugliest thing to hit the road."

    "Merc - it was and still is although I've warmed up to the styling of the G35."

      kdshapiro has obviously never seen a Pontiac Aztek. :> Now THAT's an ugly vehicle.

    The CTS is somthing I have loved the styling of since the first time I saw one in a mag.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "kdshapiro has obviously never seen a Pontiac Aztek. :> Now THAT's an ugly vehicle."

    Yes, but we ARE talking entry level luxury performance sedans, not cars in general. :)
  • r34r34 Member Posts: 178
    I was thinking of getting a Japanese sport sedan to replace my Saab because the Japanese cars seem to have better reliablity, cheaper price and more horsepower but everything changed..

    Couple weeks ago, my wife was driving a 9-3 on a 5-lane highway. Suddently, a construction truck changed lanes without making any signal. The truck ran into the driver side of our 9-3. The 9-3 spinned around from the right to the left. Finally, the back of the car hit the median wall and stopped.

    Everyone was surprised my wife was ok at that time. The doctor from the ER asked my wife what kind of car she drove. My wife said "A Saab". Then the doctor said "Oh, you should be ok. My sister-in-law got a Saab too. They are very safe". She came home on the same day. If she were driving in a Japanese car, she probably stayed in the hospital for weeks.

    Although the major damages were on the drive side doors and the trunk, the insurance company decided to write off the car (maybe it's too expensive to fix the frame).

    Here is the link of the pictures:

    http://f2.pg.photos.yahoo.com/lo_kenny

    There is no paint came off from the car (I didn't see any paint came off from the car for my 3+ years of ownership. Saab must put good paint on it, not like the Honda's).

    We looked at the internet and found that most Saab owners who lost their cars in an accident ended up byuing another Saab.

    Both my wife and I feel more secure in buying European cars because they perform real life crash test, not those in-house lab tests.

    We shopped around and ended up buying another Saab : a 9-5 Aero. We just love it. Now we have a car with both good performance and good safety rating.
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    I don't talk about exterior aesthetics much, since it's so subjective, but here goes.

    The ES is a bit funky, and the IS looks like a Japanimation toy.

    The 3 is the most boring car in the group. Some say it's understated elegance, I just see plainness. Kinda reminds me of a guppy from the front for some reason.

    The C just looks disproportioned to me. Odd, since there's definitely a resemblance to the S, and I consider the S to be the best looking sedan ever (so far).

    The front of the G35 is a bit funky, the profile is kinda boring, the rear I like.

    The TL has good proportions, and I think it looks good from most angles. It almost looks too "carved" though, like something that the Transformers would transform into.

    I like the 300C. It says power, presence, uniqueness. It ain't what I call pretty, but I like it nonetheless.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Interesting visuals about the 300C! I think sometimes good design is just plain and simple and it doesn't need to follow certain rules or do's and don'ts. The 300C is just a refreshing design from a freeway choked with boring as hell look-alike cars. For that in my book it gets applause.

    r34,

    "Both my wife and I feel more secure in buying European cars because they perform real life crash test, not those in-house lab tests."

    I've always said this was the case and the Europeans have known this for years. Saabs, Volvos, Mercedes, and Audi especially. Add Renault to that list also.

    M
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