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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    That ahem was funny. I had a feeling we'd be seeing you around today. But before we get back to serious business I have to ask where you weigh in on The Three Stooges? That's it now... promise I'll be good. After all, this is a very serious place!!

    :-) :-) :-)
  • speedracer3speedracer3 Member Posts: 650
    I might be from Mars, but I like to vacation in Venus. :)

    Now back to cars...
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Latest stuff floating around BMW concerns the new 3.0 used in the upcoming 630i. It'll produce 250+ HP but still the anemic torque rating of 221 or so. Argh. That engine will be in the e90 3 series.

    Word is also coming that a turbo version will be around with 333 hp as the high end 330i before one jumps to an M3 with a V8.

    Turbo? If it's small low pressure turbo, that'll help the torque-deficiency problem of BMW's overly praised inline 6.

    And someone asked about a favorite film...I see too many to ever narrow it down to one. If I had to pick 5, The Third Man, Once Were Warriors, Cool Hand Luke (or Butch and Sundance or The Hustler), Out of Sight and Princess Bride.

    Rebel Without a Cause = movie without a plot or decent acting. :)
  • tasdisrtasdisr Member Posts: 25
    Rrorison
    Thanks for the feedback. I am going to check them both out tomorrow.
    I already own a TL type S and it has been rock solid, but I like the new style much better. Volvo just opened a dealership less than a mile so I thought being so close I would check the s40 out.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    The Mazda3 is basically a less dressy version of the S40. Same basic car for less money. With the money saved you could look into some simple mods for the 2.4 Mazda drops into the car. I know Mazda's owners are crazy about tinkering. One turbo could make the 3 an insanely fun little car/hatch.
  • rrorisonrrorison Member Posts: 6
    Tasdisr...Please share your feedback with us on your test drives and experience.
  • merrelmerrel Member Posts: 45
    Wait a sec- I'm confused- are we talking about the old movies of the 1940's or Dubya, Carl Rove and Cheney?
  • r34r34 Member Posts: 178
    Someone mentioned Volvo designed the "WHIPS" safety device (headrest ??). This made me think of something interested about Saab.

    I read some history of Saab several weeks ago and found that certain ideas/products were created by Saab but everyone thought other manufacturers created them. Saab was the first one to came up with the followings:

    1. Heated seat (I thought it was MB or BMW)
    2. Ventilated/cooling Seat (I thought it was MB)
    3. WHIPS and headlight wipers
       (I though it was Volvo too)

    4. etc.etc...

    Saab was one of the first car maker to build a production turbo car successfully (I am not sure if Saab was the first one but they were among the first group).

    It seems that Saab didn't do much in the Marketing area to promote its "unique" features but some car-makers want you to believe they were the pioneer of certain features.

    A car-maker (Ford ??) put a TV commerical several months ago said the Cooling Seat was one of their innovative ideas. Interesting...
  • ponytrekkerponytrekker Member Posts: 310
    True. I just saw a Nissan nearly split in two on the saw mill pky. Very little safety cage protection. A pillar and B pillar virtually non existant. Hope the people inside are OK (didn't see them)
  • ponytrekkerponytrekker Member Posts: 310
    Can you say "Buy my E46 for residual value at lease end?"
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    LOL. There's very little doubt in my mind that my e46 will not be worth nearly what the lease claims.
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    I've seen a Mercedes and a Lexus split cleanly into two different pieces on the road (after the fact of course). I don't know what happened to make that happen, but these things really depend on the severity of the impact.

    Anyways, anyone really know what the engine choices are for the next 3? I've read a 230hp to 250hp 3.0L and a 260hp to 290hp 3.5L.

    I guess they'll be called the 330i and 335i then? If true, I can see the 330i outselling the 335i by more than 8 to 1. Even right now, the 325i outsells the 330i by 5 to 1.
  • saugataksaugatak Member Posts: 488
    Turbo? If it's small low pressure turbo, that'll help the torque-deficiency problem of BMW's overly praised inline 6.

    Short of bumping up displacement or supercharging, there isn't a lot that can be done to increase max. torque.

    220ft-lb to 230 ft-lb sounds about right for a 3.0L engine.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    "One turbo could make the 3 an insanely fun little car/hatch."

    I think this car already exists - Subaru sells it...
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    think this car already exists - Subaru sells it...

    No they don't. They sell a plasticky econobox with a heavy and instrusive AWD system. Heck there's still no sunroof or leather on the WRX.

    It goes like stink. Beyond that...
  • r34r34 Member Posts: 178
    Here is the link of some REAL stories (not test results):

    http://www.saabnet.com/tsn/ssl/

    The one submitted by Willie C. on June 2000 was amazing.

    "Saab focuses on a Real-life Safety philosophy of designing cars to be as safe as possible in real-world accident situations, rather than just laboratory tests. Since 1972 Saab has investigated more than 5,000 accidents involving Saabs in Sweden... The Saab 9-5 has been subjected to more than 40 different crash test configurations, including car-to-car, car-to-truck and car-to-dummy-moose. Of these, only 11 are mandated by government standards."
  • dcwong1dcwong1 Member Posts: 54
    For some reason, the German cars have side marker lights on either the body or the side mirror while Japanese and American luxury cars generally don't have this feature (a few do though). I find this feature invaluble when other cars are changing lanes. It's difficult to see the corner lights in the front of the merging car but if all cars had side maker lights, I'm sure driving would be a bit safer. Why more cars don't have this inexpensive feature I don't know. I'm actually kinda of suprised that my dad's '96 Volvo doesn't have this feature.
  • tasdisrtasdisr Member Posts: 25
    I just came back from my test drive of the tl and s40.
    The s40's performance and handling were great. Fit and
    finish were excellent and the seats were very comfortable.
    The sound system was impressive. The seating position seems
    much higher than in the tl and the overall ride was more
    comfortable than the tl.

    The tl's performance and handling were excellent. Again fit
    and finish was great and seating was comfortable. The ride was
    a little harsher than the s40 and harsher than my current tl type-s.
    The sound system to me was hands down much more impressive than
    the volvo. The seating was not as comfortable as the s40, but I preferred the seating position over the s40.

    Overall I like the tl much more than the s40. The s40 was lacking in some areas, such as very small door pockets for storage and a very
    small console and center armrest. The s40's door armrests were very narrow when compared to the tl. They are both great cars but I definetly prefer the Acura.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,188
    I would think the TSX and the S40 would be a fairer comparison... Closer in size, price, and power?

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  • tasdisrtasdisr Member Posts: 25
    Lenghtwise you are correct. The s40 is about 10 inches shorter than
    the TL and has 218 hp compared to the TL's 270. Pricewise by the time
    you option the S40 out to be comparable to the TL the sticker price
    is about the same. The TL is 34,650 and the S40 T5 with premium pkg,convenience pkg, climate pkg, DSTC, bi-xenon hlamps and moonroof
    is 35065.00.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,188
    I don't care if it has a rocket booster under the hood.... Who would possibly pay that for an S40? Forget the TL, for $35K I could list at least ten other cars to buy instead of the S40.

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  • scott1scott1 Member Posts: 50
    "For some reason, the German cars have side marker lights on either the body or the side mirror while Japanese and American luxury cars generally don't have this feature (a few do though)."

      I believe those side marker lights are required on cars sold in Europe. I toured the Corvette factory in Bowling Green Kentucky a few years back, and noticed several new Corvettes parked near the end of the line that had fender mounted side marker lights. The guide said those were for export, and those lights were needed.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    35k for a TL? Maybe with Navi. It's a 33k car without it. And I don't know how to outfit an s40 to hit 35k but I couldn't manage it on Carsdirect.
  • tasdisrtasdisr Member Posts: 25
    The prices I listed were sticker prices, not what the dealer
    was actually willing to sell the car for
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    I checked on the TL...it's a 33k car without navi. If you're comparing price-wise a navi equipped TL to an S40 without one that's not really apples and oranges.

    I managed to get an s40 to 36k by adding every option (radio pack with dvd navi). 36k for a car that's platform is the same as the Mazda3?!
  • dcwong1dcwong1 Member Posts: 54
    That's what I thought too about it being mandated by EU but my father drives a '96 Volvo 850T and it doesn't have the side marker lights. I would have that Volvo, touted as a very safe car, would have this extra safety feature.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    I've had Alfa Romeo's on my mind again lately (once you've owned one, they never really leave you) and ran across this video while surfing the Pacific Northwest Alfa Romeo Club website.

    Enjoy...

    http://www.nwalfaclub.com/features.html

    Pacific Raceways is a terrific road course, and the local Porsche, BMW, Audi, and Alfa Clubs hold track events throughout the year. Lucky for me, even Acura's are invited!

    For reference, the group is tracking out of turn 3(b) when the video begins.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    " The Mercedes C class is an entry lux sedan. A civic is a compact car weiging less while being smaller and having less equipment smaller engine. Of course a C class will trample a civic IT WEIGHS AS MUCH AS A G OR MORE. Hello a hummer will crush a blazer. No one said all cars are equal."

    You missed the point by a country mile. I said that the C or S40 would come out in accident better, not one between a C-Class and a Civic. Weight has very little to do with how safe the car is going to be. Tell that all the cops getting killed in their very heavy Crown Vics. How the car is designed is more important than how heavy it is. Why the H do you think anyone said this was a "tank battle"? Who said anything who is going to crush who? You're confused.

    " What's the big deal with 65 vs 45. Do you really know what's best for engineers designing cars. No.

    You're right I don't, butt companies like Volvo and Mercedes and Saab do. They've been doing just that for over 40 years, 50+ in the case of MB and Volvo.

    " It's easy to make tests have 65 mph as national standard but most cars would be demolished - while our class would benefit the rest of the smaller 75 cars on the market would be scrap after an offset frontal at that speed."

    Sorry but this makes no sense to me. Problem is you're stuck on that test lab stuff. An offset crash isn't the only type of accident you can have.

    I'm not knocking the G35, but Nissan has been very skimpy with their cars to get them to the market right now and there is no way I'll believe that they're just as safe as Volvo, Saab or Mercedes…these companies while they've had their problems in other areas have never compromised on safety. Now Nissan is supposed to have matched them in an area they weren't even an expert in during the time where they're cutting cost at every possible area. Right. GM cars feel solid too, doesn't mean they are safe. The crash-test failing Acura RL feels solid too.

    M
  • chrisbothchrisboth Member Posts: 493
    "but Nissan has been very skimpy with their cars to get them to the market right now and there is no way I'll believe that they're just as safe as Volvo, Saab or Mercedes"

    Skimpy my @&^. The cars on the line right now have nissan at the height of the industry on just about every front including product quality.

    Profit in an oversupplied industry is just one indication that "rushing to market" is hogwash. The g35 certainly wasn't rushed to market nor was the FX the Z or the upcoming M45. You don't own the toughest class for 2 years running and put the competition into a tailspin with "rushed to market" cars and inferior design.

    As for safety you know as much as I do about what the G will do...nada so until we KNOW your speculation is as meaninglss as mine. I know marketing won't save you neither will past research by some truly good companies that made safety a priority - typically euro makers. If that makes you feel good about paying a premium for a volvo or bmw then pay away.
  • speedracer3speedracer3 Member Posts: 650
    I managed to get an s40 to 36k by adding every option (radio pack with dvd navi). 36k for a car that's platform is the same as the Mazda3?!

    Well, it goes both ways, one could say the TL is a $33K Honda Accord. Or a ES330 is a $35K Toyota Camry. Although, the S40 is priced in the same range as its competitors, it order to beat them, it needed to be priced lower. IMO that's where Volvo failed.
  • speedracer3speedracer3 Member Posts: 650
    Just a little tidbit. Aside from it's glowing crash ratings here in N. America, the G35 ( Nissan Skyline 350GT) has scored one of the highest safety ratings in Japanese crash tests. It is considered one of the safest cars in Japan. No doubt I'd feel safe in one.

    Here's the link (the 250GT is tested here)

    http://www.nasva.go.jp/assess/html2002e/as125.html
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,188
    IMHO, the S40 doesn't compete with the TL.. It seems a class below in size and mission.. I would think the S60 is the TL competitor in Volvo's line..

    I see the competition as...

    A4 1.8
    325i
    9-3
    TSX
    IS300 (sorta)
    Honda Accord EX (depending on trim line)
    Nissan Altima
    Toyota Camry

    The last three are a little larger than the S40, but I'm sure are looked at as viable options as the S40 price climbs over $30K

    regards,
    kyfdx

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  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "If that makes you feel good about paying a premium for a volvo or bmw then pay away."

    Yes, it does make me feel good.
  • chrisbothchrisboth Member Posts: 493
    at least everyone feels good whether it's to pay or not to pay...
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    "The cars on the line right now have nissan at the height of the industry on just
    about every front including product quality."


    Bull. They've just sent 20 engineers to America to fix quality problems. Nissan also scored low on some recent surveys.

    Nobody said the G35 or FX were rushed to the market, but the 350Z has a cardboard interior if there ever was one in a car. It is downright worse than some GM cars in interior quality.

    "As for safety you know as much as I do about what the G will do...nada so until we KNOW your speculation is as meaninglss as mine."

    Partially correct. I don't know about the G35 past the crash test scores, but I do know who used to and still does place emphasis on safety and it isn't Nissan.

    M
  • chrisbothchrisboth Member Posts: 493
    Not sure about the american made ones but the japanese made cars seem fine. MAny people pay many many mopre dollars and get some problems. There is Lexus and then there is everyone else. Take look at some other surveys like how much emotion about the brand or car image influenced the decision making. It was just noted that Nissan scored at the top despite some minor and major (crank sensor recall) quality issues. People expect problems from thier cars if they are from mercedes or bmw - its part of the experience like it or not. Not everyone wants a camary so we deal with a rattle or a greasy window. My dealer has fixed my minor annoyances well and I haven't minded the 2-3 little issues since the CAR ROCKS so much.

    AS far as safety ~ your objective statments and cultish faithfulness to marketing aside, unless you can point to engineering or proven technolgy in the supposed superior car from sweden or germany then I don't think the emotion of your willingness to pay a premium for a slower less agile car dont really matter. As for the G, nothing but a stellar safety record so far. Keep on paying the premium my friend. I'll be upgrading the ski boat every time i buy a car with the extra money i save. As for the 350 Z comments? WHATEVER. It's a carerra chaser for 27k. It looks great to many MANY people who buy it in droves and praise it like a religious figure.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "It's a carerra chaser for 27k."

    Not even close.
  • billyperksbillyperks Member Posts: 449
    "People expect problems from thier cars if they are from mercedes or bmw - its part of the experience like it or not".

    I don't know about you, but when I shell out 30+K, I dont even want to hear the word PROBLEMS for the next seven or so years.

    All I want to do is regular maintenance service.

    Good luck with the expected problems with the G.
  • peterismepeterisme Member Posts: 68
    I made a bet with my wife: if I got all A last year in my B school study, I will go a head to buy the car I want. Now I won, but I have trouble picking out the best Sport Sedan.

    Since I am in B school, I know I should ask expert before the decision. You guys should be the ones who provide such expertise.

    My budget: <=$35K

    Priority: 1. Safety; 2. Reliability, 3. Performance (yeah, I only have one life, and I don&#146;t want to spend too much of my life at the service department at dealer&#146;s)

    Constrain: No Japanese Cars (Just a personal preference, I know They make good cars, )

    Can you guys give me some suggestion?

    Thanks a lot!

    Peter
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    the only way to do this is not to own a car.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    <=35k....Priority: 1. Safety; 2. Reliability, 3. Performance...No Japanese Cars

    Just forget this market then. There's no such thing as a reliable european car. BMW, MB and Audi are all lousy for reliability. Volvo and Saab are a joke. What's that leave? Jag's simply a Ford Mondeo.

    Why not try the TL, G35, TSX and IS300? Test driving a car doesn't mean you must buy it. Heck, I loathe Caddy yet I still gave their crummy CTS a test drive. I had to accept I could be wrong and really dig it. I didnt want to buy a BMW (still think they're overpriced) but ended up with one after a test drive of a 330i 6 speed.

    Try everything, then start knocking off choices. Dismissing the car before driving it is ignorant at best. At the worst you're keeping yourself from finding that car that's epiphanous for you.

    And don't dismiss non-luxury makes because they're not fitted with a stupid badge. A WRX, STi or a Mazda6, RX-8, etc are all really, really fun cars. And they're far better made than the stuff from europe.
  • speedracer3speedracer3 Member Posts: 650
    Peter,

    At or around $35K and not Japanese. Here's how they'd stack up in my book:

    1) Audi A4 1.8T
    2) BMW 325i
    3) Mercedes C230 Kompressor.
    4) Saab 93
  • chrisbothchrisboth Member Posts: 493
    "It's a carerra chaser for 27k."

    Not even close.

    Yeah 13.6 in the quarter mag times with nearly the handling - Not even close eh. It's been mentioned many times, the value of the Z in context of the pricier carerra. The carerra is not super car guy. Your wish to liken the Nissan experience as the crappy old clunker maker your sentra was from is not pertinant in Z world. Subjectivity is fine but dont diss the Z for being anything less than it is. A stellar performer bested by few and yes a evo is fast but its still a mitsu sedan box econo crapper.

    "I don't know about you, but when I shell out 30+K, I dont even want to hear the word PROBLEMS "

    People who dont expect problems dont buy BMW or Mercedes. Again I'll take my rattle and my window streak and my awesome performing ride. I dont need the 1 percentile best JD power car that bores me...I need a car that makes me get out of bed in the middle in the night from calling me to drive it. Unless you buy Honda or lexus or buick you accept some inferiority to the perfect trouble free ownership experience. You'll learn that when you spend 80k on a 750 BMW or a XJ that you get even more trouble for your extra money. The G motor will last 250k and the reliability is expected to be stellar. Hapring on this is futile. Nothing from germany would ever come so close on my list of cars that would be pretty easy and cheap to maintian over a 10 year period. 3 series would be a disaster for that long. You expect alot but your expectations are misaligned with what you'll be getting if you climb the social car ladder...unless you want to be a lexus driver all your life. Since when did infiniti become not so reliable anyway? When I say problems I should say annoyances which were few but expected in a first eyar car - mine is an 03...and flawless I might add with 20k.

    Front midships rule the world guys. Ineveitably this will be realized! LOL
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "Yeah 13.6 in the quarter mag times with nearly the handling"

    It does not have the handling, however in the hands of an average driver the Z is easier, in the hands of a skilled driver, the Porsche will pass the Z like a milk-truck. Street racing is not the forum to find out if any one car is faster or not.

    BMW reliability is not an oxymoron. BMW is tops in a number of different ownership surveys. I will admit in defects/100 Lexus rules, but that doesn't mean BMW is unreliable. Nor does it mean every Lexus just goes. Nor do I find friends who have Acuras, Hondas, Infinitis or Nissans, have cars that are more reliable than mine. (Yes, I know, in my world recommendations and anectdotal evidence are important)
  • chrisbothchrisboth Member Posts: 493
    "Street racing is not the forum to find out if any one car is faster or not."

    I thought we were mag racing...also yes a porsche in the hands of the skilled driver is a dream and driving bliss can't get much better...also a skilled 6speed z driver may outdrive an OK carerra driver. I would expect an 80K machine to own a Z - but that will only happen with a great driver and an extra 50k! These cars are not THAT comparable but yet on the track they become often comapred..go figure. You may not like it but it's the baddest 27k car out there IMO. You can get a loaded mazda 6 for more than that!
  • speedracer3speedracer3 Member Posts: 650
    My pick for luxury Japanese sport sedans is the Infiniti G35.

    Second on my list is the Acura TSX. I liked the TSX ALMOST as much as the A4. Some would argue that probably the TL deserves the sport better than the TSX, but I have not driven the new TL so I cannot comment.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    The Z is not an entry level luxo anything. You are comparing two different cars, that is why talking about WRX is not far fetched. Yes for the price it can't be beat, except by an WRX, which I do believe has at least 2 more seats, but that is where it ends.
  • chrisbothchrisboth Member Posts: 493
    Looks like Nissan is right at the industry average and Infiniti is #3 again. Who and why were we talking smack about Infiniti being a problem car???? THis out today from JD power

    Brand Problems/100 vehicles
    Lexus 162
    Buick 187
    Infiniti 189
    Lincoln 194
    Cadillac 196
    Honda 209
    Acura 212
    Toyota 216
    Mercury 224
    Porsche 240
    Chevrolet 262
    GMC 262
    BMW 264
    Saab 265
    Saturn 267
    INDUSTRY AVG. 269
    Ford 276
    Nissan 280
    Chrysler 285
    Mazda 285
    Subaru 288
    Plymouth 289
    Audi 295
    Pontiac 297
    Dodge 298
    Jaguar 310
    Jeep 314
    Oldsmobile 314
    Mercedes-Benz 327
    Mitsubishi 327
    Volvo 346
    Suzuki 365
    Hyundai 375
    Volkswagen 386
    Isuzu 393
    Daewoo 411
    Kia 432
    Land Rover 472
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    You ain't gonna convince kd with such stats. He has stated repeatedly that he'll take anecdotal evidence (namely, that his own car is relatively problem free, while he knows a lot of Japanese cars with problems) over such surveys/data.

    Save your breath (in this case typing, or copy-pasting).
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    BMW is tops in a number of different ownership surveys. I will admit in defects/100 Lexus rules, but that doesn't mean BMW is unreliable. Nor does it mean every Lexus just goes. Nor do I find friends who have Acuras, Hondas, Infinitis or Nissans, have cars that are more reliable than mine. (Yes, I know, in my world recommendations and anectdotal evidence are important)


    Refuse to admit reality. Reliability frequency and repair costs on German cars = daunting. I've owned two german cars in the past 3 years. The VW was a nightmare. The BMW needs to go in again as my sunroof is rattling something terrible. Already had the parking brake replaced. The car is only 13 months old. At this rate that's a new problem every 6 months. Not a good sign for BMW.
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