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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "Refuse to admit reality."

    What reality are you talking about? The reality that Japanese products are less reliable than the surveys say and German products are more? We've been down here before, you can quote chapter and verse. 'Nuff said.

    edit - according to a post on the Luxury marquees board the latest JD Powers survey is out. Toyota/Lexus/GM/Porsche/BMW - made the top 5. What does is really mean between number 1 and number 5, one more trip to the dealer every two years?
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Even if it's one more trip, that's totally unacceptable. When broken down by BRAND, BMW drops to the middle. Because BMW is a small manufacturer their stock rises the moment you combine the brands of manufacturers.

    As a brand, BMW is middle of the road. As we all know, being average is a failing grade.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "Even if it's one more trip, that's totally unacceptable"

    I disagree it is what it is. You could get a Lexus and *hope* you are in the category of car owner that Lexus would like you to be in, or you could get a dog. Either way there are never any guarantees.

    Playing the odds in reliability is no different than gambling at Vegas.
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    "The reality that Japanese products are less reliable than the surveys say and German products are more?"

    This really makes no sense to me. We all know that you like your Bimmer, but COME ON!
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    "Playing the odds in reliability is no different than gambling at Vegas."

    Incorrect analogy. The "odds" with each carmaker is different. You have better "odds" with Japanese lux makes than German lux makes.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    "As a brand, BMW is middle of the road."

    Sometimes you have to consider individual models within the brand. The E39 530 is arguably the best sedan that has ever been made. CR called it the best sedan they have ever tested. I'll take it a step further... E39 M5 is the king. Not too middle of the road here. It handles, affords amazing manners as a lux cruiser, and has a Steven Segal reserve of butt kick for when the bad guys get out of line. Awesome vehicle!
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    BMW as a brand is middle of the road. By model, I haven't seen the stats. By make, we all have. In the family of BMWs the last gen 5 may be a smooth operating piece of machinery.

    Strange how KD didn't respond to this part:

    Because BMW is a small manufacturer their stock rises the moment you combine the brands of manufacturers.

    As a brand, BMW is middle of the road. As we all know, being average is a failing grade.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    BMW bashing has become one of my favorite topics lately due to their fashion gambit. Accordingly, I think their sales will continue on a downhill slalom, but I think "middle of the road" as a brand is a little over the top. Curious, which brand or brands do you consider above the middle? Pardon me if you said it and I missed it... it happens toggling between work and the chatter.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Infiniti, Acura and Lexus all score FAR higher for reliability as brands than BMW.

    BMW scored 264 problems per 100 cars. The industry average is 269. You can't be much more middle of the road. Lexus hit in there at 164 or 69 (too lazy to scroll up). Now that's well made.
  • speedracer3speedracer3 Member Posts: 650
    For those that like anecdotal evidence.

    2 BMWs in my family--they were ALWAYS at the dealer for electrical gremlins.

    3 Lexus cars in the family, the only time they saw a dealer was for scheduled oil changes.

    Bottom line: My anectdotal evidence supports the JD Power study. Lexus cars are built like swiss watches. BMW does not hold a candle to Lexus reliability.
  • dhanleydhanley Member Posts: 1,531
    My budget: <=$35K

    Priority: 1. Safety; 2. Reliability, 3. Performance (yeah, I only have one life, and I don&#146;t want to spend too much of my life at the service department at dealer&#146;s)

    The 9-5 has great reliability scores, and stellar safety. Performance may or may not satisfy, based on your judgement.

    Of cource, BMW would fit in that category as well. My BMW has been a problem-free tank, so obviously all of them must be. ;)

    Personally, i don't like japanese cars either.
  • saugataksaugatak Member Posts: 488
    I think a lot of BMW owners don't break in their engines properly b/c they can't hold back on revving their new cars.

    Improperly broken in cars will have a lot more mechnanical problems than properly broken in cars.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    "AS far as safety ~ your objective statments and cultish faithfulness to marketing aside, unless you can point to engineering or proven technolgy in the supposed superior car from sweden or germany then I don't think the emotion of your willingness to pay a premium for a slower less agile car dont really matter.

    The same can be said for everything you've said about Nissan, but unlike Nissan the brands I spoke of (Volvo, MB) are the ones that Nissan got the knowledge from to make the car you drive safe today. They've proven their technology since they came up with it and Nissan has since adopted all of it, that is the biggest proof in the world.

    "Whatever" is no response to the 350Z having sub-par interior, worse than many GM cars in terms of material quality. The 350Z will get it's lugnuts handed to it by a 911. Because buy it doesn't address my comment about the interior, people by certain GM cars too with PlaySkool interiors. Doesn't justify anything.

    This premium you keep talking about isn't even present on the cars I mentioned and European cars that cost a grip do so for other reasons, some good and some bad, that "premium" isn't all wrapped in safety engineering like you're trying to imply it is.

    M
  • riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    Not sure what people mean when they say they don't like Japanese cars. Most car companies today are multi-national in terms of their engineering, design, and production. For example, Americans design BMWs and BMW has both a major design studio and a huge production plant in USA.

    Take the Lotus Elise sold in the USA. Is it British or Japanese? Or both? It uses a Toyota engine and transmission. Does it matter? No, because it is a fun and exciting car.

    You should be trying to get the best car that meets your needs and fits your budget. Regardless of the marque. To do otherwise is irrational.
  • chrisbothchrisboth Member Posts: 493
    "I think their sales will continue on a downhill slalom"...re BMW sales.

    AS many problems as they have thier sales are increasing I believe. People will pay a premium and accept a few problems for a premnium ride. VW is one that wouldn't have survived (may be gone this time) if not for "perceived value".

    Merc Im glad your favorite car companies had thier safety engineers on the payroll - it makes EVERY car safer. Even Mine :0
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    It uses a Toyota engine and transmission. Does it matter? No, because it is a fun and exciting car.

    It does to me. I'm interested in the Elise BECAUSE it has that Toyota engine matched withe super light body. If it had a Ford engine...
  • chrisbothchrisboth Member Posts: 493
    The beauty of the lotus is thier willingness to focus on the frame/content and suspension and let the most reliable engine maker out there give you instant credibility and reliablity where normally there is maintnenance and service nightmares. Who can work on an esprit? Toyota engines are maintenance free aren't they? What a coombo. To bad i'm so tall or I'd be into that elise...
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Where are the May sales sheets for BMW? Somebody please prove me wrong. They did not come out of the gate well with the new models except X5, which really can't compare to anything within BMW. They are discounting, unprecedented for them. I think come September/October we are going to see real concern from BMW regarding sales. The only thing that's keeping them slightly in the black is platform diversity. That part of their plan worked. And 545 is living proof that muscle sells. Don't know about these new high-revving engines they seem to have on the board. This should mean no low-end torque. Most people want the latter and have no clue how to drive high-revving buzz bombs.

    Regarding Elise. I salute anyone who gets one and stays with it. Talk about spartan. Anyone who gets turned on by Elise is from the sports car elite. Chris, no doubt, tall guys got shortchanged with sports cars. I'm 6 feet and feel that's the limit for comfort, maybe 6' 1". No matter, run downcourt and take it to the hole!

    ;-)
  • dhanleydhanley Member Posts: 1,531
    "Not sure what people mean when they say they don't like Japanese cars."

    Well, one issue is they are typically uncomfortable for me. They seem to be designed either for smaller-framed people than i. I was looking at an acura RSX, and the salesman was lauging at me trying to get comfortable in the car. I do, however, think that there is more similarity than difference between cars from the same engineering culture, and you can make (very) general statements, about control heaviness, safety(europen) vs reliability(japanese), etc. The fact is a $35K car is a $35K car, and engineers are about as good all over the world. Cars at the same price point are all about equally contented, albeit often in very different areas, and we (ought) to choose based on our wants in these areas. Instead we often succumb to magazine articles and marketing campaigns. But it's weird to me how attached people get to a marquis, shouting the strong areas and denying the compromises.

    dave
  • chrisbothchrisboth Member Posts: 493
    Are there people who actually look at safety first and then the car/content/price/maker? Those are rare breeds and if they are REALLy concerned about having the best latest most proven safety record car they will be changing brands every year or so.
  • bsavoybsavoy Member Posts: 4
    Here's my opinion on these:

    1) 2004 Acura TL - I own it, it was my choice for value, style, reliability, performance
    2) G35 - my second choice, cheaper BMW with same performance, but less style
    3) BMW 3 - still is the benchmark, but the japanese and even the new caddy is really making it harder for them to stay at the top of my list, the new TL and G35 are just too good for the money
    4) MB C-Class - needs a redesign
    5) Cadicallac CTS - nice first effort, and they are really coming along, the CTS-V is awesome
    6) Lexus IS 300 (but if it looked more luxurious on the inside it would have been higher)
  • dhanleydhanley Member Posts: 1,531
    When we bought a saab as my wife's car, safety was the #1 criteria. When i bought my bimmer, safety was relegated to 2-3, after performance, comfort. At this point, i wouldn't get a car unless i thought it had really excellent overall safety. I've had too many near misses.

    dave
  • chrisbothchrisboth Member Posts: 493
    Im still compelled by the fact that accords/camrys and overall, mid sized sedans that are agile do the best overall for % of fatalities over miles driven. This stat is indicitive of the driver's role in accident avoidance, possibly the agility (better than an SUV but no G or 3), and certainly the improvements in feauteres that are now standard for safety and frame construction.

    Is the safest car out there a honda accord - maybe - prob not for a semi collision. Is is the safest in terms of safely driven miles which is what we all really want...yes.

    While multiple correlations exist the driver is in my opinion more important than the vehicle at least with similar type cars.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "Im still compelled by the fact that accords/camrys and overall, mid sized sedans that are agile do the best overall for % of fatalities over miles driven."

    I seem to remember reading/seeing, volume adjusted the Europeans did better. But I guess the old expression: figures lie and liars figure apply here.

    When I got my car the first thought in my mind was safety followed by finesse. I know a lot of people who buy a car for safety and then buy a house on the San Andreas fault. Doesn't make any sense to me. I don't buy my car by first looking at the NHSTA or IIS websites. I take it for granted all entry level luxo cars are safe within a statistical difference or two. Life is too short, and I also don't have a problem going to San Fransisco.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Is the safest car out there a honda accord - maybe - prob not for a semi collision. Is is the safest in terms of safely driven miles which is what we all really want...yes.

    Camcord drivers tend to drive like the near dead. Is it a shock fatalities would be higher in sport sedans when those drivers will tend to pilot with a little more energy?

    On average the drivers of sport sedans probably aren't that much more aggressive given the obscene number of poseurs who own BMWs but still the cars must attract more aggressive drivers than camcords.
  • chrisbothchrisboth Member Posts: 493
    with 80% of 3 series being auto (i guessed) most drivers are prob not that enthusiastic in the entry lux class. I think 85% of G's are auto. As for SUV's a Cute Yute ("what's a yute"..my cousin vinny) is IMO safer than an escalade.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "with 80% of 3 series being auto (i guessed) most drivers are prob not that enthusiastic in the entry lux class."

    That's ironic considering you drive an auto, and consider yourself an enthusiast. Most of the people I know who drive Bimmers are enthusiast but don't want to row the gears in traffic jams - similiar to you, similiar to me. :)
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    I agree kd. I have both stick and auto cars. I like both for very different reasons. A lot of these stick guys are just arrogant; so are some of the BMW sport-package zealots. It's like "I'm cool, I own a car for all of the right reasons." There's such a thing as a luxury car, a sports car, and everything in between. You can be an enthusiast on any level. And if you are NOT an enthusiast, and just someone who appreciates a car for ANY reason, who cares?

    Here we go again, stick and SP, Round 67... bring it on... let's see if there are any new and convincing arguments!

    ;-)
  • chrisbothchrisboth Member Posts: 493
    http://www.kptechnologies.net/chris/chris_race.htm

    While I am the exception to my own stereotype I am an enthusiast with a 5AT. I believe the tranny choice is a great indicator of one's enthusiasm but not all the time. I would love an manual agian but I wouldn't drive it as much as I do now in this traffic disaster area.

    The vid is me having fun with a 6 speed coupe at ATCO NJ last april. Not bad for being 20 hp shy of the coupe out of the box with 4 doors and a 5AT. My run was 14.2 at 97 and he was 14.7 at 93. Other sedans ran 15 that day and z's ran 14.3 except for some lightly modded guys that ran 13.6. THE FI GUYS ROCK WITH 12's.
  • speedracer3speedracer3 Member Posts: 650
    Nice vid Chris, did you launch the car in manu-matic mode or in full auto. Just curious.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    I don&#146;t think enough people appreciate the BMW steptronic. It&#146;s a good compromise sans clutch (not talking about racing). Also, to BMWs credit, the SMG has both the stick/paddle shift option, unlike many cars that don&#146;t offer the stick in manual mode. I can&#146;t stand the paddle shifters. To me they seem like a major pain on the hairpins… like throwing darts at a moving board. Anyone here have experience with paddle shifters and turning? Would like to hear comments.
  • chrisbothchrisboth Member Posts: 493
    paddle shifter are ok but im a hand on the tranny guy even in auto. (ruined a 5 speed after 100k by holding hand on shifter all the time in 5) The GS is better without the paddle IMO from driving a very close friend's. The GS sucks after driving a G tho so I'm biased overall.

    I stuck her in MM 4 and did no shifting manually. THis is the fastest way to get there according to many many track types with whom I consulted heavily before running as this was my first try or my only track day ever. PS i got a .089 R/T and a 2.19 60'.

    The key is lanuching at 1700 with a little brake torqing and a good burnout before to warm up the Turanaza Pukers.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    That's ironic considering you drive an auto, and consider yourself an enthusiast. Most of the people I know who drive Bimmers are enthusiast but don't want to row the gears in traffic jams - similiar to you, similiar to me. :)

    Not an enthusiast imho. Sorry but the automatic is a dog. especially that steptronic. video game driving. You buy a step bmw, what you're saying is you're not willing to make a compromise to really enjoy the car's dynamics. What's the compromise, you shift in traffic. It's no big deal.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    The smug types who drive sedans with sport setups are funny. They think they are driving real sports cars… as cute as when our kids take the training wheels off their bikes and think they have conquered the world. To me, the sedan format is the ultimate compromise when it comes to sport driving, never mind the tranny. I guess we can argue forever about who is and who isn't an enthusiast.
  • chrisbothchrisboth Member Posts: 493
    I am enthusiastic about winning if I race....the tranny is just a mechanical interference getting in bewtween us and the accelration and g forces. When blueguy drives a 911 with a 6 speed then he can talk enthusiasm. If i only drove it once a week it would be a 2 seater and would be a 6 speed. And it sure wouldn't be a BMW..
  • speedracer3speedracer3 Member Posts: 650
    Everybody has a different defenition. To some you are only an enthusiast if you drive stick. To some, enthusiasts are those that drive cars with two doors. IMO the fact that we are here arguing about cars while we could be doing much more productive things makes us all car enthusiasts.
  • jazevedojazevedo Member Posts: 34
    You don't need a 911 to be an enthusiast!! It has to do with how much you can afford...I love fast cars...I have a Mustang GT right now because that's all I could afford out of college, but I needed a big engine. I certainly didn't buy an automatic. I deal with bad traffic in the Silicon Valley but a stick was the only way to go. I've had so much fun in that car, doing things that many of my friends have no interest in...because they don't care about acceleration like I do. It's a drug to me. I'm looking at this thread because I'd like to get a 330i with zhp. It's not a 911, but the BMW has excellent handling and the power is nothing to sneeze at (although I'm worried it won't have enough torque, since the "feel" of accelerating is more imporant to me than actually getting my from point a to b the fastest...but I'll test drive soon and find out for sure). I love fast cars, but it's simply not practical for me to have a 2 seat sports car...and I'm not rich enough yet to have a weekend Viper in addition to my lux sedan.

    If an auto makes you happy than that's great, but you can't say Blueguy is wrong about a stick being a lot more fun and worth the extra pain in traffic for many people.
  • chrisbothchrisboth Member Posts: 493
    agreed..we are all enthusiastic about our completely practical daily drivers..except the coupes can be less practical i suppose..oh and blue only drives weekends but is clearly still enthused.
  • chrisbothchrisboth Member Posts: 493
    I really am not suggesting that he is not an enthuisiast simply that I AM. I can't get into a 911 without getting killed just yet either so i feel for ya. After 11 years of sticks in several cars I needed some more practicality in my old age with a GF that loves to drive my car fast but not a stick. Also the manual G is not comfortable for my 6'5 frame as the seating position is different for me when using left leg. Whatever floats the boat but a sedan driver with his compromise is not going to throw a stone at my glass house compromise with out a lob back at him! The G auto is about the only one I would ever own. Maybe a vette? Also when 8 speed smg's are the norm the 6 speed will lose it luster and then what will you stick guys do to keep up?
  • jazevedojazevedo Member Posts: 34
    I hear ya. I definitely agree that you can be an "enthusiast" without a stick! The point is you enjoy driving and you love your car.

    I'm also considering the G35...I don't like the styling as much but I love the engine.

    My fiance can't drive stick either....I plan on teaching her! :) I considered going to auto..her car is obviously auto and it's nice to drive it and take a break sometimes. But after thinking about it, I think I'd really miss being able to downshift and take off. Just personal preference.....
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    I won't own an automatic. I love driving too much.

    Maybe a vette? Also when 8 speed smg's are the norm the 6 speed will lose it luster and then what will you stick guys do to keep up?


    If I can avoid an SMG i will do everything in my power to do so. Yuck. No third pedal = no fun.

    oh and blue only drives weekends but is clearly still enthused.

    I only drive the BMW on weekends. But I drive a stick daily. all the cars I've ever owned have been manual. There is only one reason that will ever change: the lazy people win out and automatic and smg are the only options in 5-10 years.

    And I drive 80-90 miles a day in rush hour, with a muscle disorder that limits my mobility and makes my limbs sore. So don't give me the tired leg garbage. A little pain is worth the reward...
  • speedracer3speedracer3 Member Posts: 650
    I spend 3 hours of my day in bumper to bumper traffic. I won't drive stick in that mess, I value my leg. Gimme auto-magic!...sorry Blue, I avoid pain whenever possible. Those that equate pain with fun are called masochists. Count me out!.
  • chrisbothchrisboth Member Posts: 493
    If you need to feel that control in a madza 4 cylinder while in traffic jams then you are way more enthusiastic than I am. ACtually a 4 cylinder is easy to drive and I wouldn't own it without a stick to be honest as a 4 clinder mated to an auto is awful for driving around town in.

    You guys hear my tires chirp in 3rd? :)
  • speedracer3speedracer3 Member Posts: 650
    I drive my A4 1.8T CVT around town and it has plenty of power for me...and that's a 4 banger. Our Millenia is a V6 and my A4 kicks its butt.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Actually, the BMW is FAR better in traffic. Put it in second and you can take the car down to 2-3 mph without touching the clutch and take it all the way to 60 from there. As long as you don't come to a total stop it's not bad at all in a bimmer.
  • chrisbothchrisboth Member Posts: 493
    Speedy your car is also a turbo and not a low powered mazda to which my comments were directed. The mileenia is no powerful 6 but good enough for a family hauler in auto version right...

    CVT is way better than an auto and much better for a 4 cylinder i would guess. My father in law to be (maybe) just got the a-4 with the 3.0. Is that CVT too?
  • speedracer3speedracer3 Member Posts: 650
    CVT is way better than an auto and much better for a 4 cylinder i would guess. My father in law to be (maybe) just got the a-4 with the 3.0. Is that CVT too?

    If your father in law to be got the A4 3.0 Frontrack he got CVT. If he got the A4 3.0 Quattro then he gets Tiptronic (which is not as good). BTW...Nissan makes a CVT equipped G35 (called Skyline 350GT-8), unfortunately it is only available in Japan. The closest thing we get here that combines the VQ35 and CVT is the Nissan Murano.

    Having driven the Murano I can say that CVT would probably work wonders in the lighter more nimble G35.

    Another thing: Why is it that Nissan can design a CVT that can easily handle more than 240 horses and AWD, while Audi with their great germanic engineering wisdom can't produce a CVT that handles AWD or more than 220hp.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    I've actually read articles about how CVT can't handle "the torquey engines americans favor." I scratch my head and wonder if people ever do research as the Murano I drove was torquey!
  • chrisbothchrisboth Member Posts: 493
    Nissans AWD system and thier CVT seem light years ahead of the germans (in terms of 04 cars anyway). The CVT things seems compelling but i need a few more years of wathcing it before i jump in. Call it the infinite SMG without sequencing!
  • billyperksbillyperks Member Posts: 449
    I dont think your 1.8T cvt stand any chance against the Millenia "S", maybe the base car but not the "S".
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