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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    tends to be wrong on the invoice/msrp pricing. what people are paying is, i believe, data they assemble. not sure about its veracity. i personally don't care what they're paying...i want to buy the car for the lowest price, not walk in hoping to match what everybody else gets.

    if anything lets see the top ten best and top ten worst prices paid!
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    "There is already a trend toward the sequential-shift transmissions that BMW calls "SMG"

    In my book, if it doesn't have three pedals, it's an automatic.
  • dhanleydhanley Member Posts: 1,531
    carsdirect shows 38,423 with luxury sport package.

    You could probably get 4000K off that later in the year.

    I thought it drove pretty well, but it wasn't in the same league as the 530 with the new sport package (adaptive suspension).

    dave
  • lmacmillmacmil Member Posts: 1,758
    "I do the same. I price cars there, and waste my time here."

    ha, ha, that's a good one. I'll be glad when I finally pull the trigger on a new car (probably a month off). I'll get about 60 min a day of my life back when I back down to a single forum.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Hmmm, I tried CarsDirect as well and it showed me $34,566 for the 330i, PP, SP, Heated Seats and Xenons and $38,871 for the CTS Luxury Sport. Yikes, that makes the BMW $4,000 less expensive than a comparable CTS! I assume that this has to do with the fact that the E46 is something of a lame duck, as it were, with the E90 arriving on our shores in less than two months time.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • dhanleydhanley Member Posts: 1,531
    The 330 has a $4200 incenive on it now because the new 3-series is almost here. Plus, you can grab it near invoice for the same reason.

    Makes me sad when i think what i paid for my CPO 328i awhile ago with fewer features-yuk.
  • jsyarussjsyaruss Member Posts: 50
    HA! Wonderful Shipo. Thanks...

    I approached the topic of "Maybe the next car will have a manual trans..." with my wife this week. Didn't happen. Didn't even come close. (Am I allowed to say D***) Might try again, but your post was perfect...

    I'm with you, brother.
    S
  • johnny420johnny420 Member Posts: 473
    Blueguy,

    Would you purchase that 330i again? I'm currently a TSX owner (which I love, BTW), but that darn bimmer intrigues me to no end.

    In the Seattle area, the BMW is absolutely ubiquitous, but I still want to drive and maybe buy one someday.

    What are your thoughts regarding the TSX V. 330i? I thought I'd read some of your posts indicating you'd driven the TSX.

    Thanks for any input.
  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    In some cases I think I would use Edmunds but when I bought my Infiniti (and yes, it has an automatic) I took the pricing information from the boards here and walked into the dealer and tried to shoot for the lowest possible price.

    I also brought two ads from dealers in Boston and Cincinnati and told the dealers that other dealers were willing to sell the car to me for less.

    And this strategy worked because I bought an I35 and many dealers are looking to get rid of their leftover cars from last year.
  • johnny420johnny420 Member Posts: 473
    "Best regards< Bill H"

    LOL!

    Best Regards,
    Johnny
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Johnny,

    I love the TSX. I can't quite explain its appeal. I love the clean style, the nice, simple, legant cockpit but more importantly, I go ga-ga for the silky smoth 6 speed in those things. Like buddah. I've driven them a few times and I always dug the eager pull of the engine, the delight of keeping the car over 4k rpm with plenty of room to play.

    The 330i is a pretty different beast. The driving dynamics matched with the power won me over. If you feel like your TSX just isn't there for power, and if you'd like that special punch in corners of RWD then you'll enjoy the 330i. Really, the only way you'll know, go drive one. And let the salesguy know it's all about the handling. In other words don't let him take you on some anemic on surface street, then the freeway and back test drive. You want twists, turns, hills, switchbacks and plenty of opp to flog the car as god intended.

    Yes, BMWs on the west coast are everywhere! you can't swing a dead cat in any west coast major city without hitting a bimmer. Unfortunate but true - one my reason the TSX attracts me.

    If I hadn't run across a 330i with manual to drive in 03, I'm sure I woulda ended up in a TSX. I woulda been fairly happy too. Just yearned for more power and AWD/RWD.

    Knowing what I know now about my 330i would I lease again...hmmm. Most likely yes but I gotta say I'd dwell on it way more. I would probably still lease. I really wish I could own a BMW, but I simply don't think they're good cars. All this talk about the 08 M3 4 door has me excited and conflicted. You just can't lease an M3, it's a car you buy and keep. And the idea of buying a BMW troubles me. The idea of owning a lexus, infiniti, mazda, acura doesn't raise my eyebrow in the least.
  • gordonwdgordonwd Member Posts: 337
    Autoweek had a preview article this week on the new IS350, and compared it to the '06 330i (E90). They thought that the IS350's styling beat that of the E90 (they said it "pops" while the 330i merely "pings", or something like that). They also estimated a 0-60 time beating the 330i by a full second since the IS350 will have 300hp under the hood.

    In summary, they really liked this car, and it will be interesting when they get around to actually testing and comparing both in U.S. spec form.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Didn't even test the car, so the article is pretty worthless. We find out this week if Lexus is going to make the same mistake twice - releasing a so-called sports sedan without a manual (in the 350) at launch. No manual = lexus fumbles again.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    Or do all of the latest "sport sedans"appear bulbous and heavy?

    The TL, G35, and CTS weigh between 3500 and 3600 lbs. The TL has a 108" wheelbase. The G35 at 112" and CTS at 113.5" have some minivans beat in wheelbase.

    Imagine how tough a competitor the Pontiac Aztek would be with the Buick Rendezvous 3.6L VVT engine. 108" wheelbase, 3770 lbs. curb weight, 245 HP, and it sleeps 4!

    I don't know how much they weigh, but I hope the E90 and IS250/350 come in around 3200 lbs.

    I guess I'll keep the TSX and hope someone eventually gets it right (how about a 2800 lb BMW 230i?).
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Roundel this month has the e90 330i without extras at over 3400 lbs.
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    The european IS250 weighs over 3400 pounds. The IS350 might be close to 3500 pounds.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    &#147;Is it me.. Or do all of the latest "sport sedans"appear bulbous and heavy?&#148;

    Indeed, they all have porcine characteristics. I saw an E23 7-series (first generation) this morning near a current 530. The 7 actually looked smaller and was certainly lower. Maybe the Porsche Panamera will bring everyone back to their senses. You can bet it will be low slung the way a sport sedan should be. However, if the engine goes up front it may run into a problem…

    I think one of the problems is the new pedestrian safety regs which, among other things, require a certain amount of clearance between the hood and the engine. When the hood height gets raised, so does the rest of the car which may account for the slab-sidedness we&#146;ve been seeing. It certainly appears as if the E90 and new IS conform to these regs, in addition to the other new generations.
  • lidialidia Member Posts: 1
    On the topic of pricings, I'd lilke to run a quote I got by you guys- It's on a pewter metallic 2005 C320, with the entertainment pkg, heated front seats, 6 disc cd changer, and the sunroof pkg. It's a demo with 1200 miles. They're willing to sell it to me for 28,000, and I was wondering if I should try to go lower. By the way, it's is Ohio.
    Thanks
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    IS350: 300+ hp, 275+ torque, 6 speed auto

    IS250: 200+ hp, 180+ torque
    RWD manual: ~$30,000 base
    RWD auto: ~$31,500 base
    AWD

    Sales target: 45,000 per year

    The IS is based on a modified version of the GS platform.

    http://pressroom.toyota.com/photo_library/display_release.html?id=20050323c
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Well, it seems that Lexus has gone and done it again, no manual transmission in the IS350. What's up with that? You'd think that they would have learned that lesson the last time around. Do they actually think that the only folks who buy cars with manual transmissions do so because they cannot afford an automatic, hence offering it only on the cheaper/smaller engined model? Yikes! Well, I guess that BMW is still safe from this potential "3-Series Beater" since this is a car that has a loud bark, just no bite.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Jeez, it's even worse that I thought. It appears that the IS250 will only be available in two pedal form as well (assuming that I interpreted the press release correctly).

    On the other hand, I suppose that "...a new 6-speed sequential manual transmission..." could be sort of like a motorcycle transmission, a real clutch pedal and some kind of a simple up/down gear shift arrangement. Hmmm, nah! That would be too wierd.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,217
    Just the AWD... the RWD 250 comes with six-speed stick standard..

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  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    See my edited post above...

    To my way of thinking, the wording in the press release is kind of ambiguous, and as such, I don't know how to interpret it.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,217
    Yeah.. I didn't catch that.. Something tells me that copy should have been proof-read...

    I'm guessing a regular old six-speed.. I think the copy boy got his sequentials mixed up between the stick and the automatic...

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  • ljwalters1ljwalters1 Member Posts: 294
    It is confusing b/c they use the qualifyer "sequential" manual. The spec sheet at the bottom clearly indicates manual transmission, but I guess there can be different interpretations or definitions of the word "manual." Right, Mr. Clinton?
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Standard in the IS 250, a new 6-speed sequential manual transmission is designed to take full advantage of its free-revving V6 engine. A new sequential-shift 6-speed automatic will also be offered in the IS 250 and will be standard in the IS 350 and IS 250 AWD.

    The press release is not clear. It says &#147;6-speed sequential manual transmission&#148; in the text (above) and 6 M/T in the table. To me the former means auto clutch sans torque converter such as SMG and DSG. What is it?
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,217
    it is just a plain old manual..

    I guess that wraps it up, huh? ;-)

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  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    What is the percentage of Manuals sold compared to Automatics with sedans?
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,217
    I bet it is under 5% in the U.S...

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  • cybersolcybersol Member Posts: 91
    "6-speed sequential manual transmission" is the same wording they use for the MR2 Spyder's SMG like transmission. My bet is that you won't be able to buy the new IS with a clutch pedal. Guess they really did want the IS to fit in more with the rest of the Lexus line this time.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,217
    Wouldn't that be a kick in the teeth.....?

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  • cybersolcybersol Member Posts: 91
    7,217 - Acura TL
    5,706 - Lexus ES
    5,430 - Cadillac CTS
    4,956 - BMW 3-Series Sedan
    4,901 - Mercedes-Benz C-Class
    4,851 - Infiniti G35 Sedan
    3,107 - Acura TSX
    2,811 - Audi A4 Sedan
    2,377 - Infiniti G35 Coupe
    1,038 - BMW 3-Series Coupe
    439 - Lexus IS

    In general, it looks like sales are much more even across the top 6 models than in the past. It should be interesting to see how the new 3-series and IS shake the segment up over the next year.

    Enjoy, cybersol
  • 151ranch151ranch Member Posts: 109
    as my 95 850T appears to be ready for the junkyard. I can probably go a few months if they can figure out the fuel delivery problem since the engine/tranny are still in good shape but at 190k it won't be long.

    My priorities are: manual transmission, speed, handling, safety and decent gas mileage. Price range is 40k or less, and am willing to buy late model used. DH says no Volvo, MB or VW. I am willing to give Volvo another chance.

    I test drove the 5 series (530) and the 3 series (330xi and 330) last week, but there was no manual tranny available!!? Was not impressed - the slush box made my Volvo AT seem great and both cars were rather loud - the 3 series in a good exhaust way, the 5 series in a bad road noise way. The manual shift option was incredibly slow. I will try to test drive again at another dealer (for the manual). P.S. I-drive stinks.

    Was hopeful about the TL but having a hard time getting over the sheer craziness of the Navi/Voice control system and the dash lights were very glaring at night. I am not THAT old and am even some what of a computer geek but someone needs to tell these car companies to stop with all the #%@) junk in the interior.

    So what's left:

    S70
    TSX
    Maxima
    GS
    CTS - well, I don't think DH will go for this either
    Wait for Mazdaspeed 6?
    Wait for new IS?
    pack the kids in the Mini Cooper S? (I did drive this, whoa is that fun)
    Subaru WRX
    Saab and Audi but dealers are 100 miles away

    What else is there?
  • bpointbpoint Member Posts: 2
    151ranch,

    Isn't the TL Navi system an option with the 6 speed MT?

    The TL also has a dash light dimmer. I set mine real low. It has two settings, one for headlights off, one for headlights on. There is also a Max button that quickly toggles it between the max setting and your setting. The dealers set it to the MAX setting for some reason.
  • billherrmannbillherrmann Member Posts: 108
    After reading your post, it seems your first priority should be finding out what DH WILL go for !!
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,217
    I'd look harder for a 3-series with a stick.. Big incentives on those right now, that will bring the price way down...

    Other than that, I'd go with the TSX..

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  • cybersolcybersol Member Posts: 91
    In addition to the ones you are looking at or waiting for, try these:

    Nissan Altima, Maxima
    Subaru Legacy GT
    Volvo S60 R, T5
    If there is an Infiniti dealer nearby, G35 6MT.

    I don't think the GS has a manual. If you would take a coupe in addition to a sedan then I could come up with more.

    Enjoy, cybersol
  • ljwalters1ljwalters1 Member Posts: 294
    I agree that you should check out the G35, Nissan Maxima & IS350, if it comes in stick. I am also confused by your TL negatives. I've got a TL and 1stly, I think the voice-navigation is fantastic, and love how its been integrated with the radio and cliamate control. I really think it's something everyone could appreciate. 2nd, you can get the car without it. 3rd, if you want navigation, but have some sort of problem with voice controls, you don't need to use them. There's regular manual controls for everything, too.

    Re dash lights, as someone else posted, they're adjustable.
  • squirtdadsquirtdad Member Posts: 22
    Subaru Legacy GT (sedan or wagon) is another option to look at. The 2005 is more upscale interior than previous models. Performance is in par or greater than most of wat you have listed. (250 hp/250 ftlbs forge with turbo 2.5 liter)
  • squirtdadsquirtdad Member Posts: 22
    and I forgot....the infinit G35 sedan (with 6 speed :) )
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Wow, couldn't disagree more. The 2.5 GT limited has you sit up high (like a G35), the interior's very basic and very cheap feeling. No auto window up/down. That's right, one window has auto down. Cheapy leather, clunky plastics. And the engine...ayecarumba. It pulls strongly but it's load and sounds like it may break at any moment. Gas mileage is horrid. Even on the freeway at cruising speeds in 5th the engine is pulling high rpms. If one runs 80 mph, you're never gonna break 22-22 mpg on a long trip.
  • 398lbft398lbft Member Posts: 5
    You may as well look at the WRX STi and Mitsubishi Evo for that price range. If you're looking for more space or less #%) junk in the interior, but want to avoid the TL and CTS, theres always the G35, Maxima SE and Altima SE-R.

    For decent gas mileage, go with the small simple Japanese cars. Sentra SE-R Spec V and Corolla XRS. They are fun, and are more practical than the Mini Cooper S.
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    http://www.auto-report.net/index.html?tm200501.html

    Well, I guess this confirms that the 3.5 GR V6 will go in the next ES.

    The CX25/35 must be an Infiniti version of the Actic concept.

    http://motortrend.com/autoshows/cov...it/index18.html

    The CX25 will probably get the 2.5 V6 VQ used in the Japanese Skyline and Fuga. That engine makes about 210 hp/ 197 torque.

    This bodes well for a G25 in the next model change. It will battle the IS250, 325i, and A4 1.8.

    Acura CSX. What the hell is that? When you google "Honda CSX", a lawn mower comes up.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Yeah, just what the es needs 300 hp through the front wheels. and yet it will sell...
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Well I couldn't disagree more. After making the rounds to many, many dealers including Subaru I understand why Subaru owners are passionate about their cars. Their interiors may not be up to BMW quality. But their drivetrain is every bit as good. The Forester XT Premium for example, can't hold a candle amenity wise to any car in this thread, but it will go to 60 in 5.25 seconds and it costs $15K less than the 330. The $15K one could save could be invested in another car, the market, your house...etc. So yes, the compromise is in the interior, but there is no compromise with the smoothness of the shifter, engine or drivetrain.

    While you might be right about the gas mileage running within legal limits will bump the gas mileage to about 30. Show me any car that goes 0 to 60 in 5.25 seconds, like the Forester XT(see review in caranddriver.com ) and gets 30 mpg going 80 on the freeway.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    So yes, the compromise is in the interior, but there is no compromise with the smoothness of the shifter, engine or drivetrain.

    Absolutely, 100% disagree. The engine, shifter and tranny are rough, unrefined, loud and fill me with anything but confidence in the car's abilities.

    While you might be right about the gas mileage running within legal limits will bump the gas mileage to about 30. Show me any car that goes 0 to 60 in 5.25 seconds, like the Forester XT(see review in caranddriver.com ) and gets 30 mpg going 80 on the freeway.

    The Scooby XT won't get 30 mpg running 80 mph. According to Edmunds the 2005 xt manual is rated at 23-24 mpg for the freeway. The engine runs to high in the rpm to approach that feat. And at 90 mph, I know it won't come even close to 24. Turbo 4s are fun but not economical when matched to lousy gearing.

    Scoobies are fun but they're not on the level of entry lux cars by any stretch.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    …that the Legacy GT and Forester XT have sloppy suspensions especially the latter which also has incredibly slow and numb steering. Even the Outback configuration trumps them handily IMO, ironic since they raised the ride height. The driver&#146;s Subies are the WRXs. Outback XT is the best compromise if you need utility.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Actually I couldn't disagree more. The shifter is snappy and crisp, the suspension is taut, and the car takes off like greased lightning. Faster than any other car in this thread. It holds the road on par with the FX35/X3. I agree it does not have the amenities and the vehicle does have a numb spot in the steering. But it begs for more, and you can give it more and it inspires the same confidence as the 3er. And it cost $10K++ less than the other vehicles in this board.

    I agree, you give up some. The interior of the Scooby isn't up to the interior quality of these vehicles. But you pay less, get less amenities but more drive.

    As for the gas mileage, in this part of the country you don't fly around at 80, unless you want a big fat ticket so I'm not worried. But people I know who have the car get 27+ doing around 65 and that's just fine with me. And did I mention it cost less than the other vehicles in this segment.

    I'm not promoting the vehicle nor do I really believe it belongs in this thread, IMHO, it has the guts to compete with these other fine cars at a different level. Maybe less luxury and amenities, but it will blow the doors off of them. To some people that's important, to others it's not. There is no right or wrong. YMMV.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Did I mention the Scoobies all come standard with LSD?

    /ot
  • lmacmillmacmil Member Posts: 1,758
    Remember the econ 101 concept of marginal utility? That's where the entry level luxury sedans come up short in my opinion. Let's face it, most of us do most of our driving in rather routine commuting. Those of us in the midwest don't have many exciting roads to drive, unlike much of the west and east coast.

    I started my search looking at TLs, TSXes, and G35s. Then the Scottish hertitage kicked in and I asked myself why should I pay $30K+ for my 8 mile city commute. I just couldn't rationalize it. I ended up with a Camry SE-V6. Not as luxurious as the the TL or ES330 (although same powertrain as the latter), not as fast as the G35, not sporty as the BMW but for me, the marginal utility of that extra $7-10,000 just wasn't there. It's luxurious and fast enough for me though obviously for many of you, it isn't.
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