Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

draknad · June 2005

I wonder if there really is a way to find car review vs corporation incentives.
my opinion:
car&driver comparisons:
1: german 2: japan 3: US last place: usually jaguar.
I don't need to read to C&D comparison reviews to know results.
(recent 1-2 yrs, japans swapped with german)

I think car magazine/press reviews effect our perf sedan car choices too much, with too much bias.

kdshapiro · June 2005

EPA gas mileage estimate testing are out of date. The EPA even says so themselves. I got 33 mpg cruising at 80 mpg on the highway in my 3er.

"I think car magazine/press reviews effect our perf sedan car choices too much, with too much bias."

They don't effect my choices, as a matter of fact, I can't think of one person who was ever swayed by a review in a magazine. For the most part the test drives speak for themselves.

The reviews are nice to have as tie-breakers.

But you don't like a BMW, well don't get one.

kasperghost · June 2005

Ever notice why the ratings for all cars are so high over in the consumer reviews no matter what the model or make? People shopped, liked, and bought what they saw and were very happy with it. This to me is a strong indicator that through the rag "conspiracy," quite a few people are not sheep. You prefer power, others balance. Still others prefer the "xyz."

A big rating factor that needs to be addressed in this thread is real world usability. Are any of us renting track time? Are we taking these vehicles over 8/10ths? Or have the skill to? Back road driving doesn't count.

I have a Pathfinder with the Q4 engine in it and, although voted one on of the best v6's ever made, it vibrates too much for me and the g35 is worse. That, I think is why BMW is so succesful. They build cars that carve a sweet esse curve, and take the wife to a nice dinner with a quite smooth ride...and haul buttocks. That is huge.

C&D top ten break down
4/10 Domestic
4/10 Japanese
2/10 German
1/10 People who don't like BMW

blueguydotcom · June 2005

G35: 19/26
330i: 19/27
CTS: 17/27

Wow, where do you dig up false stats? An e90 330i 6 mt is a 20/30 mpg car. e46 330i 6 mt was a 21/30 mpg car on the sticker.

Heck even with a crummy automatic an e90 330i pulls 21/29:

http://www.bmwusa.com/vehicles/3/2006330isedan/techdata.htm

Maybe you should find a better source for stats...

as KD pointed out, strangely, BMWs when pushed above legal limits get even better MPG. Running an average speed of 87 from SF to San Diego I got over 30 mpg in my e46. Many people simply refuse to believe it. It does fly in the face of physics that a car running 100 mph can get 29-30 mpg. Voodoo again I guess.

shipo · June 2005

When I had my (barely) broken in 530i on the Autobahn in Germany a couple of years ago I was delighted to discover that it was getting 24 miles to the gallon at speeds well in excess of 120 mph (especially considering that it cost nearly $100 to fill it up). Funny thing, many cars have their sweet spot for mileage sitting between 45 and 55 mph, the two BMWs that I've had were more like 75 to 85 mph. Go figure.

Best Regards,
Shipo

potemkin · June 2005

My $0.02.

The appeal of BMWs might be because not everyone is that enamored of the HP/$ number as some here are. If that number is most important to you, your G35, IS, CTS, etc. all need to be traded in for the mighty Mustang GT. Heck, if BMW sold the 320i (150 HP) in the US I'd be driving one of those right now.

Claiming that 184 HP is "underpowered" is just plain silly. My E46 325i definitely isn't "underpowered" and neither is my 318ti (a whopping 138 HP). In fact, I'm not aware of any car sold in NA that can't reach any posted speed limit, and I'm sure they can all do it in a reasonable amount of time. My 1.8 litre made it from Atlanta to Daytona (~450 mi.) on one tank of gas (~13 gal.) while averaging 90 MPH for most of the distance.

I guess what I'm saying is that there is an awful lot more to a car than HP. BMW "under"powered? No. Not enough power for your liking? Probably.

geekay · June 2005

IMHO when you have reached where you buy 30k worth of car, you would have or should have made a thorough comparison and you should also have reached an age when you can make decisions based on your own judgement. Like mentioned earlier, we are spoilt for choice. To each his own and let the testosterone belong where it should, in a boy racer forum! Be happy and sport :shades: with confidence what you have. You have (hope) made it here with hard work and so have these cars. Enjoy

draknad · June 2005

325/330 19/27
330 20/29

G35 19/26
G35 20/27

CTS 17/27

post#: 3531, 3533
Numbers above. Original post (#2529) suggests gas milage is not much of a deciding factor, since there is small difference between gas milage.
As for real world numbers, good, I can probably drive a BMW in fith saving mpg's, that's why there are some standard ratings. Everyone drives a little differently.

post#: 3532
cool, enjoying a car's feel is largely opinion and owners tend to happily rate their own cars high.
But I think in this performance forum, we are comparing cars side by side, and
seeing their performance vs value.
Is a G35 worth it, or BMW worth it. (or CTS, MB, etc)
So why is a 184 hp BMW valued at $30K compared to a 298HP G35?
Why would someone pay $30k for 184hp, when they can get 298hp for equal price.

Now test drives:
I think you can't get a feel by just test driving, I think only after owning and driving as a owner, can you really get the feel.

Now how about this:
After ownership, anyone in here think about maintenance cost?
BMW vs G35?
I know there is another forum, but I think a relfex for BMW fans in here would be
"my BMW is great, no maintenance problems at all"

maintenance cost
BMW > G35 (check, maintenance forum)
reliability
BMW < G35 (maintenance forum, JDPower, real world exp)

So after you pay $30k, for minus 100hp,
it might cost more $'s after for maintenance.

kdshapiro · June 2005

Why are you quoting stats for a 2 year old BMW.

325=215 hp
330=258 hp.
4 year/50m b to b maintenance cost = $0

Reliability = if you go by the stats both cars are equal, real world experience seems to indicate they are equal. (Friends who have G35s have the same types of issues with their cars as other friends who have 3 series). Heck most people in this forum would probably say, my G35 no issues what-so-ever. YMMV.

Is the car worth it to you? If you can't tell the difference between the G35 and 3 series, I'm gonna suggest you won't be able to tell the difference between the G35 and TL.

blueguydotcom · June 2005

Original post (#2529) suggests gas milage is not much of a deciding factor, since there is small difference between gas milage.
As for real world numbers, good, I can probably drive a BMW in fith saving mpg's, that's why there are some standard ratings. Everyone drives a little differently.

5th gear? The e90 (all manual models) has 6 gears. And you keep posting the freaking e46 numbers...the car is no longer made. The e90 330i is a 21/29 and 20/30 car as I've shown you with my post from BMWUSA; in other words, the source.

And who says it's not a factor? Lexus made a point of mentioning great fuel economy with their new IS250/350. BMW mentioned the increase in economy on the e90 too. It does make a difference. I know I can beat the hell out of my e46 all day and still get 22/23 mpg while shifting at 5500-6k. I also know from experience with a G35 i'll get in the high teens doing that. And no matter how I drive a G35 on the open road...it simply will not get 30 mpg. 30 mpg as most have pointed out here is a snap with a 330i on the open road at hyper legal speeds.

After ownership, anyone in here think about maintenance cost?
BMW vs G35?

Yes most of us did and that's why many of us opted for included service cars like Audi and BMW. I've bought tires over the past 2 years. Two sets so far...so about 2k on tires. Doesn't matter if I got a G35 or 330i, i'd still be plunking down for new tires every 13-15k miles of driving.

The people I know with G35s have had to pay for oil changes, services (some as little as $100 and others over $500 for 15k mile check and 30k mile check up). Getting an oil change every 7.5k with synthetic will run you at least $50. So even going low, a G35 by 30k miles will cost at minimum (not including tires) $400. My BMW = 0.

but what about outside warranty? Average buyers in this bracket don't own more than 3-4 years. I leased my 330i expressly so I'd never own it out of warranty. In other words by 45k miles I will have bought tires for my car. Has it had problems in the first 30k miles? Yep. They haven't cost me one cent. So I really don't care if the car breaks down. It goes to the shop and gets fixed. No big deal. Five minute drive to the dealer and I can always use my other car or get a loaner. :P

shipo · June 2005

"Why would someone pay $30k for 184hp, when they can get 298hp for equal price."

Yo-period-dude! BMW no longer uses the 184 hp mill in the 325i. Like it or don't, it's a fact. Get over it.

As for comparing cars on paper, you are showing your naiveté by your constant reference to the numbers. Please, go drive the damn things, then maybe, just maybe, you'll discover what the rest of us have already discovered; numbers don't necessarily equate to value.

Regarding the puny little engine in the former E46 325i, take a look at the One Lap of America results for 2005. The single well driven G35 beat the single well driven 325i by a measly 170 points (5195 vs. 5025), or, said another way by a margin of 3%. Hmmm, it would seem to me that if the G35 was SOOO much better than the E46 325i the margin of victory would have been far more significant.

Best Regards,
Shipo

frisconick · June 2005

I find both cars outstanding, the BMW cost a lot more for similar performance, I have driven both. However, the BMW dealers are much less willing to deal than the Infiniti dealer. This tells me that the BMW 330Ci is selling much better than the G35 coupe.

kasperghost · June 2005

"I think you can't get a feel by just test driving, I think only after owning and driving as a owner, can you really get the feel."

True- but initial impressions are very powerful and research has shown them to be reasonably accurate.

Your speaking to experienced BMW drivers (me excluded). Drive one and do a comparo to the G35 in this thread. You are quoting the latest model G35, a 2005 w/298 hp. It is only fair that you drive the 2006 325i w/215. If you drive a 2005, it would only be fair to NOT compare it to a 2005 G35 but to a 2004 G35.

Physics/facts on paper say a bee can't fly...

anthonym · June 2005

Just to add to the discussion, I purchased the redesigned 3 series in 1999 (automatic 323i) and currently still have it until I sell it. The handling is unbelievable and quick enough for me even with 184hp. I purchased the next generation 06 330i two weeks ago. I really liked the larger and wider body style and technological advances the car offered. I also test drove the Lexus GS300 and BMW 5 series but decided on the 06 3 series.

Overall I like the interior of the 06 330i better than my 1999 323i. Two aspects I am disappointed in are the harsh ride due to the run flats and the lack of initial acceleration. The acceleration is very slow after a stop. In fact my 323i has a smoother and quicker acceleration than the new 330i. The ride is much harsher and I don't get the same "hug the road" feel as I do with my 323i. I will seriously look at the redesigned MB C class when it comes out in 2007-2008 and possibly the next E Class or 5 Series. I don't honestly think I will hold onto the 06 330i as long as I did with the 1999 model.

draknad · June 2005

Ok, I will respond, although issue will be dragged.
#3539
ok, 21/30 20/30 vs 20/27?? (posted links for evidence)
there that much difference?
The point is, there is not much difference between a G35 mpg vs 330 mpg.

ok, drive in 6th gear, sorry missed one gear, but do you agree, you can
get better gas milage in your highest gear(6,5,4)?
Hopefully you understand "everyone drives differently" vs gas milage.
(nother fact for you guys, 2006 not out long enough for stats, please)

Maintenance, you are admitting you need a service car for backup.
Meaning, you expect your BMW to be in the shop at times.
I would prefer my car not in shop ANYTIME unexpectingly.
BBC maintenance (little old)
3 maintenance (can't find 3 vs g35)

325 not made anymore.
Don't you think you'd still argue 325 184hp's are worth it, even if I posted this message 1 year ago? (2004 184 hp vs 260 hp)
Still 215hp vs 298hp. (BMW's still behind even after remodeling..haha, rediculus)

#3540:
you just posted G35 perform better then 325 for same cost.
thank you.

Cutting to the point.
The point is, why are 325 more worth it vs a G35 (cts, c230, TL)

I've seen:
Feel
Handling
Power
Maintenance
Price
MPG

blueguydotcom · June 2005

Hopefully you understand "everyone drives differently" vs gas milage.
(nother fact for you guys, 2006 not out long enough for stats, please)

We're pointing that without babying the car we get 30 mpg. Again talk to G35 owners and ask them if they can 30 mpg running an average of 85-90 mph all day. They simply can't.

Maintenance, you are admitting you need a service car for backup.
When did I write that? I don't have two cars as backup. I have them for different tasks.

Meaning, you expect your BMW to be in the shop at times.

I expect ALL cars to breakdown as even my Japanese cars have breakdowns.

I would prefer my car not in shop ANYTIME unexpectingly.

But an expected breakdown is okay? What?

Still 215hp vs 298hp. (BMW's still behind even after remodeling..haha, rediculus)

Drive them. Until you do, your spouting off is "rediculous."[sic] I'm through responding to you as you're showing yourself to be little more than hater with zero experience in the cars you're touting and denigrating.

The G35 is a fine automobile I pushed one and had the car react in a less than pretty way (common complaint among reviewers too...including roadtest editor Karl here at Edmunds). I was hot on the G35 until that moment. I drive my cars hard and I'd rather not spend 32-33k on a G35 that I feel is not gonna stay glued to the ground and that has NVH at levels I find disquieting. I'll drop 3-4-5-10k more to get something that makes me happy. If my purchase were ruled by dollars alone, I'd own a 2001 honda accord...

kasperghost · June 2005

cest la vie

laurasdada · June 2005

Hi, TL owner here. Great car.

"The point is, why are 325 more worth it vs a G35 (cts, c230, TL) "

The only answer is that, from purely an economic standpoint, anything is only worth what a buyer is willing to pay for it. If I had wanted a 325, I would have bought it and it would have been worth it to me 184 HP and all. You're not buying horsepower, you're buying a car (to meet many personal criteria)! If all you value is HP, maybe Chrysler will sell you a Viper V10 engine for your living room...

What makes our economy the well oiled machine that it is is the lovely law of supply and demand (and, of course, competition. Laisse faire, Adam Smith and all that economic stuff...Simplifed explanation from a simple mind). Anybody can charge any price for anything they want. But, if there is no demand, guess what? That item is repriced (e.g. GM cars, "Employee pricing for everyone!") or withdrawn from the market (Are they still making the Aztek?). For a myriad of reasons, European cars have always been more exepensive than their domestic & Japaneese counterparts. (Although, with the advent of Acura, Lexus and Infiniti, European prices have come down. More supply/competition in the near/luxury market). However, as there is enough demand for BMW products, well, that's the price you pay, Doc. You want BMW prices to come down to G35 levels? You'd better start convincing the KDs and BlueGuys of the world not to keep buying Bimmers.

Obviously, a BMW is overpriced to you. You are correct. To KD & BlueGuy, a BMW is a good value. They are correct. I believe my TL to be a great car and value, I'm correct. I'm sure CTS owners feel their car is fabulous. They are incorrect...

Drive 'em all, buy one and enjoy!

kdshapiro · June 2005

All cars breakdown, some even have been bought back via the lemon law. Do you think Infiniti is immune?

sjk2575, "Infiniti G35 Sedan" #8141, 16 Oct 2003 1:32 pm!keywords=allin%3Amsgtext%20limit%3A.ef010cb%20lemon%20law

That is post 8141..persuing lemon law with G35. Happy Motoring. :sick:

frisconick · June 2005

I was all set to buy my first BMW (a 330Ci) then I met the dealer. No dealing, you pay out the nose, and that's it. Infiniti G35 dealers are much more flexible, and the cars are very similar in perfornance and cornering. But I sure wanted a BMW!

temj12 · June 2005

I would rather have my '05 CTS than any of them. Great handling on the road.

kennynmd · June 2005

I own neither a BMW( I did own a 03 325ci) or an Infiniti, but would like to say I agree with Blueguy on this one. Drive both to believe it. My 325Ci with the OLD 184 hp was plenty. What's up with the horsepower war? Buy what you like even if it is underpowered and enjoy it. If you want power for the buck, try a Neon SRT-4, a WRX, a Lancer EVO, or a Mustang. Just enjoy it!

kdshapiro · June 2005

Did anybody read about the latest IIHS side impact tests? The A4 did very well.

But Volvo, the company who most people associate with safe cars, still has some work to do as the pelvis risks being crushed in a side impact collision in an S60.

The Maxima was rated marginal.

dhanley · June 2005

"I was all set to buy my first BMW (a 330Ci) then I met the dealer. No dealing, you pay out the nose, and that's it."

Wow. I didn't realize there was just one BMW dealer in north america.

dave

kdshapiro · June 2005

Sounds like Infiniti dealerships after the G35 first came out.

potemkin · June 2005

"I was all set to buy my first BMW (a 330Ci) then I met the dealer. No dealing, you pay out the nose, and that's it."

I had the opposite experience. The moment I inquired about the G35 6MT the local Infiniti dealer told me right of the bat that they weren't discounting them off the sticker, but they would throw in some mats. Of course, this was back in January before the new 3 hit dealer lots. After the test drive I decided to get the "old" 325i.

frisconick · June 2005

lol dave. I went to many dealers, Infiniti and BMWs, and just found the Infiniti dealers more willing to give in. Of course I had Consumer Reports Buyers Guide with me which really helped in the negotiations. I liked the feel of the BMW 330Ci a littel better than the G coup, but it was not worth $7,000, the feel of the G was great as well. Besides, almost all of my driving is freeway, so I just might check out the Acure TL again. :shades:

fedlawman · June 2005

The Mustang GT has 300 HP and only costs $25,000.

The Lotus Elise has only a 4 cyl 190 HP engine, yet costs $43,000.

Which would you rather drive???

frisconick · June 2005

kdshapiro · June 2005

It depends if my MSRP cut-off is $30,000 or $45,000. I'd rather have the Mustang at least it has 4 seats.

qbrozen · June 2005

4.4 sec 0-60? 1.06 g skidpad? oh, and a convertible (of sorts - in which case i think it should be compared to the $30K Mustang GT convertible). I gotta pick the Elise.

But... then again .... where did this question come from on the sedans board?? ;b

frisconick · June 2005

Oh yeah, this is a sedan site lol. BTW, the TL, G35, and BMW are all great cars and we are lucky we can affort them. :P

fedlawman · June 2005

where did this question come from

Just making a point about the G35 vs. 325i HP/value discussion.

akotiga · June 2005

I very much miss the feel of my 138 hp 318i vs. the feel of my new 280 hp 2005 G35x. Price, size, and pure hp were the big factors in getting the G35. The power is exhilarating but delivered in a loud and raw manner. However, the connection with the road is simply not there. I suspect part of it has to do with the slightly larger body of the G35 vs. the smaller more agile body of my old 318i.
I'll probably be heading back over to BMW in a couple years to see what deals may be had by that point on a 325i/330i.

Adrian

draknad · June 2005

BMW,G35,CTS, MB, TL, etc

Feel BMW ??
Handling BMW ??
Power G35
Maintenance G35
Price =
MPG =

anyone else

kdshapiro · June 2005

Part of the value equation is determining which criteria one places the most weight on. And then add to that manufacturer/dealer reputation, quality of salesperson, distance from dealership, metrics from the alphabet soup of statistics purveyors (IIHS, NHTSA, CR, JDP, magazine reviews etc, and a bunch of other non-vehicle related criteria.

Each person will have their own value system, which is hard to translate to "which car is best" for them.

Reviews, although useful to find distinguishing characteristics, also have a bias that may not be the same bias as the the potential purchaser.

If we all looked at this as a business decision, Hyundais would rule the world.

frisconick · June 2005

Hyundais would rule the world. lol :shades:

fedlawman · June 2005

Have you seen the 2006 Sonata GLS?

235hp V-6, 5-speed auto, 16" alloys, ABS, EBD, TCS, VSC, side airbags, head curtain airbags, passenger seat occupant sensor, head restraint whiplash protection system, and all the usual power goodies - $21,000.

Hyundai may yet rule the world...

cdnpinhead · June 2005

Yes, but only where status and/or implied status = zero.

Don't hold your breath.

Or, if you do, have a will.

frisconick · June 2005

Not bad for such an inexpensive car, not bad at all ! But value at the Camery level is different than value at the TL level.

draknad · June 2005

In order to appease the discussion....revised template with priorities

Feel BMW critical
Handling BMW critical
Power G35 important
Maintenance G35 important
Price = important
MPG = moderate

kdshapiro · June 2005

In all fairness this is the Entry Level Luxury Performance sedan boards. Where the emphasis is on the sport/performance and less on the luxury.

jrock65 · June 2005

I saw the new 3 on the road for the first time today. Not a bad looking car, especially from the front. The first adjective that came into my mind was "pudgy". Mainly compared to the 2005 3 though.

col_10022 · June 2005

I have test-driven about 14 different cars and I am starting to get a feel for the differences between them. If we are talking about the Infinit G35 versus the Acura TL versus the BMW 3 series, I have these comments.

Acura has the largest interior (think Honda Accord sized interior) then the Infiniti (think Civic sized interior) then the BMW (which feels cramped, think excel sized
interior).

The BMW 3 series has the best interior design, then its a toss-up between the infiniti and the acura.

The infiniti has the best acceleration, the BMW 3 series comes next with its high low end torque, the acura it right on its heels and the BMW 325 series really isn't in this category when it comes to performance.

The BMW feels like a higher HP/torque car than the numbers would indicate but it is still not as powerful as the infiniti and loses out to the acura at higher speeds. However, the low end torque really does make a big difference in how the car feels.

The BMW has the most responsive handling, followed closely by the infiniti and the acura trails having the most "luxury feel" of the three.

The Acura has the best NAV system, the other two suck.

The G-35s have intellikey technology which means that you never have to take the key out of your pocket, as long as the key is your pocket, you can open the doors and start the engine (makes it pretty tough to get carjacked).

All three of them sell for about invoice in the Washington DC area (the infinitis sell for slightly below invoice, the acuras for slightly above invoice and the BMWs are currently selling for around invoice (mainly because BMW has announced a minor midyear redesign, they are adding the intellikey technology of the G35 and improving their "worst of class" NAV system).

If the NAV system and the keyless technology isn't important to you, then you may be able to get a good deal on a BMW after they start shipping the new BMWs with intellikey technology and upgraded NAV system.

BTW get internet quotes BEFORE you ever step on a lot and see if anyone will beat them (I have had trouble getting anyone to beat the lowest internet quotes, actually I haven't been able to do it yet).

kdshapiro · June 2005

The BMWs have keyless entry and starting as well. All you have to do is pay for it.

"The BMW feels like a higher HP/torque car than the numbers would indicate but it is still not as powerful as the infiniti and loses out to the acura at higher speeds."

At what speeds are you talking about. The BMW will go right to 155? It's really hard to judge relative speeds unless you take them to the track. I have not driven the new E90 yet so I can't comment on it.

draknad · June 2005

performance = power + handling
anything else to add or rate?

blueguydotcom · June 2005

performance = power + handling
anything else to add or rate?

Performance = power, handling, tranny, nvh, tach operation, ride on different types of roads, seating position, sightlines.

The G35's manual has a light that blinks when the car wants you to shift. The tach lacks a redline too. NVH from the engine is unparalleled in this class...the 3.5 is one rough engine. Seating is high and more like being on a couch, thus making the driving experience less thab pleasurable.. On uneven roads the car tracks poorly and makes a lot of racket with the 18s and 19s. Vision from the driver seat is good. Lots of power.

jrock65 · June 2005

The "keyless" system in the new 3 sounds a bit silly to me. It requires you to insert the keyfob into a slot in the dash, then push a button.

kdshapiro · June 2005

This isn't the way it operates. Read the threads on the E90 forum. There are also some links to the operation of the keyfob directly to bmwusa.com that state you do not have to insert the keyfob.

This is part of the comfort access package.

blueguydotcom · June 2005

The "keyless" system in the new 3 sounds a bit silly to me. It requires you to insert the keyfob into a slot in the dash, then push a button.

Tto avoid disinformation, the keyless system, when you have comfort access, works exactly like mb and infiniti...walk up, open door, press start key. leave key in pocket or purse.

I'll consider thison my e90 for one reason: Im lazy. I hate the idea of the non-keyless which involves inserting the fob and then pressing that dumb start button.

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