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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Yeah to bad it doesn't handle as good and goobles gas. Seems to me the G35 is trying to aspire to be a BMW. :)
  • frisconickfrisconick Member Posts: 1,275
    The G35 coupe does handle as good as the BMW, but does gobble gas, with a 298hp engine, that wipes out most BMWs except the mucho expensive M, what do you expect. If you want to save on gas, buy a Prius. :P
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Actually it doesn't wipe out anything. HP is not the be all and end all. My guess the 3 manual would beat it on the laps, just like in the R/T comparo. It may get to the red light .0001 seconds faster than a 3er, but that's about it.

    Now if you want to say the 3 is more expensive I'll agree. But the two cars have different missions in life. You may be one of the rare few people that actually enjoys paying $3/gallon. :)
  • frisconickfrisconick Member Posts: 1,275
    HP does mean a lot, 0-60, 1/4 mile etc. the G wipes out the the BMW 3. I don't mind paying $3 a gallon in California, it's only a few hundred a year, big deal, are you so poor you can't afford that? If so, buy a Civic or Prius. :P Buy the way, those are two great cars.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    HP does mean a lot, 0-60, 1/4 mile etc. the G wipes out the the BMW 3. I don't mind paying $3 a gallon in California, it's only a few hundred a year, big deal, are you so poor you can't afford that? If so, buy a Civic or Prius. Buy the way, those are two great cars.

    If I were you I'd apologize for that poor statement. It's totally uncalled for and it will get your post yanked.

    There's nothing sensible about wanting to blow $3 every 18 miles.

    And regardless of your peacock attitude the G35 in autox hasn't revealed itself to be the dominant force you claim here.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Saigon,

    Only you can tell if the ZPP v. ZSP v. ZHP makes the difference for you. I found the standard and zpp cars to be a little puffy. The Sport Package 330i was fun. ZHP more fun. In the end, even the ZHP is too soft for my style of driving.

    What was wrong with waiting 10 weeks? You've waited your whole life...what's 70 measely days?
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Okay. Show me a comparo where the G wipes out the 3. I can show you one where the 3 wipes the G.

    I just ran across this...just for a break in the conversation:

    http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=29&article_id=9902
  • frisconickfrisconick Member Posts: 1,275
    Unless you are a Host, I am not apoligizing for anything. I am not saying that the G35 is dominant, just a better value than the BMW, I think that's what is really bothering you. Additionally, if you can afford a 35k car, poor mileage isn't going to force you into the poor house. Buying a G35 298hp coupe is not a sensible buy, you are buying a great sporty car that gobbles gas, you go in knowing that.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "I am not saying that the G35 is dominant, just a better value than the BMW,"

    I agree it's more expensive, but everybodys definition of value is different. And that's what this conversation is about. Yes gas price shouldn't matter, but the fact is with a smaller engine and less hp and power, the 3 series holds it's own against the G. Most magazines consider the new 3 the new benchmark.

    However, having said that, there are real reasons for looking at other manufacturers. BMW has always been the drivers benchmark, which is one reason I am interested in them. I don't care for the other stuff such as DVD-A, nav etc, give me a well tuned creamy smooth vehicle that almost drives me and I am happy.

    I wouldn't throw the G, TL or any other car out of my garage if one landed inside. I just wouldn't pay for them.
  • frisconickfrisconick Member Posts: 1,275
    Great post!!!

    Please, don't get me wrong, I love BMWs, and I am considering the 330ci, and the M3, but I just can't justify the cost over the G35 coupe, even though I can afford it. For the same reason I an considering MB, but I can't get over CRs low reliability ratings for the MB. By the way, CR does recommend the BMW 3 series.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Most magazines consider the new 3 the new benchmark . . .
    BMW has always been the drivers benchmark, . . .

    Most magazines consider the new 3 the new benchmark not because of the car itself but because it is a BMW 3 series. BMW is not the driver's benchmark; it's the benchmark for sport sedan marketing. E36, E46 and E90 have been significantly different cars, getting softer in every generation. The new E90 is softer than the E34 5 series. What kind if drivers' benchmark is that? unless you are saying that drivers are a dying species. It is a marketing benchmark. BMW has been a great marketing phenomenom.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    hosts don't ask you to apologize, they just yank inappropriate posts. Odds are good come Monday the post will be gone. They don't take kindly to personal insults here.

    I can afford either car. The gas mileage matters to me. I want 30+ mpg when I'm taking a road trip.

    No, the extra stops with a G35 wouldn't make me sell a house or anything but it would make me think twice about going to the movies (25 mile round trip) or driving to LA. It's more psychological but it's real to me nonethless.
  • playplay Member Posts: 38
    I'll second that, blueguy. I wouldn't consider an Infiniti. It's no secret that Infiniti is poorly engineered. Any car that needs 35% more gas ( these are the realworld numbers I have read) to approximate the performance of its competition is poorly engineered and not worth considering, IMHO.

    Carlos Ghosn arrogantly stated how people do not care about fuel economy. He turned Nissan around and yet has now left it ill prepared for future times. All their models compare poorly in this regard. It's unfortunate the chairman was not as well rounded as he thought he was.
  • frisconickfrisconick Member Posts: 1,275
    On second thought, I do apologize. I re-read my post and it was a very poor choice of words on my part, I am sorry. What I should have said is that mileage is not that big of a deal for me, it may be for others.

    Again, please accept my apology.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "BMW is not the driver's benchmark; it's the benchmark for sport sedan marketing. E36, E46 and E90 have been significantly different cars, getting softer in every generation."

    Have you ever driven a BMW? If not you should get yourself in for a test drive. Maybe you have and were unimpressed. That's okay with me. I don't have to defend the car. There are legions of reviews that seem to indicate that BMW has done right with the E90.
    Here's one of them. Maybe they are in the business of selling cars and they needed to change with the times to suit their broadest audience without compromising their mission of the "Ultimate Driving Machine".

    Yes, BMW does great marketing, but they also market a superlative product. Sounds like there's a subtext in your post, almost wishing the Japanese knew how to do the same thing. I hope I'm interpeted your post correctly as it seems you are trying to say that BMW has these magazines in their pockets. While they have their biases, they are independent.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    I sort of agree, although I won't go so far to say poorly engineered. The fact is their engine use much more gas for almost the same performance as some of the compeition. And don't tell me to get a hybrid please. In general car manufacturers are ignoring the $3/gallon price per gas, hoping that we won't notice either. People who say when you buy a sports sedan you give up rights to good mileage are just blowing smoke. BMW and Acura manage to squeeze decent mileage in both city and highway. The folks I know who have G35s get as low as 15-16.

    The use of the same engine in all of Nissan/Infiniti models will come back to haunt them.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    I don't have anything against these cars. They are all great in their own right. What I can't understand is the value proposition people often cite, when they buy a $35K car. Like: 'Yep I got a lot of car for my money'? Well that ain't so. A cars job is to take one from place to place. Lots of cars fulfull that and don't even cost $15K. A $35K car is an indulgence. People on these boards often end up heatedly discussion which indulgence is less indulgent. :) As if to justify their purchase.

    "but I just can't justify the cost over the G35 coupe, "

    I understand that also. Many whiles back a Honda S2000 owner said of a Ferrari: "Why would I want one, I got a car that performs almost as well for a fraction of the price and is totally reliable" You're the same way, the diminishing returns you get from an M3 is not worth it.
  • lmacmillmacmil Member Posts: 1,758
    The G (and most Infinitis & Nissans) is geared lower than most of the competition so it's turning several hundred rpms higher at highway speeds. That probably gives it better acceleration in top gear at the expense of fuel economy.

    Somehow I doubt most people buying $35,000 and higher cars pay much attention to fuel economy though ;) And the difference between a few miles per gallon is only a $3-400 per year for the average driver. Less than 1 car payment.
  • frisconickfrisconick Member Posts: 1,275
    These mags are not independent if they take ad money from these companies, plain and simple.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "Somehow I doubt most people buying $35,000 and higher cars pay much attention to fuel economy though ;) "

    I think today most people look at fuel economy. I'm fairly certain people who buy the $40K+ RX400h pay particular attention to the fuel numbers.
  • frisconickfrisconick Member Posts: 1,275
    I don't understand your line of thinking. If you are really concerned about mpg, the you really should buy a Prius. Actually the Prius is one of the hottest selling cars in the US, and that speaks volumes about conerns about gas prices. However, if you buy an SUV, or a car with over 250hp, says that you are not that concerned about gas prices.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Prius has zero performance though. We're looking at entry lux sedans. In that segment 30 mpg on the freeway is viewed as reasonable as the cars also have luxury (absent from a prius), handling (absent from a prius) and power (totally absent from a prius).

    I have driven an 04 Prius (current body style). It scared me! There was a crosswind and that egg-shaped, high-riding car with almost zero tire connection to the road felt like it was going to flip. Doing 80 on the freeway was a chore and at that speed - normal freeway speed, not even normal long distance drive speed - the gas mileage was less than stellar. I can only guess how horrid my mileage would be running 95-100 down I-5 to SF ior I-15 to Vegas. Would it even get in the 30s?

    I know I can get 30+ running 95-100 in my 330i. And the car feels firmly planeted. And I'm only using 2/3rds of the engine's potential, so the car still has the gumption to scoot if I need it. Otherwise it's just leisurely zipping along - quiet, secure, agile still and totally luxurious.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "Prius has zero performance though. We're looking at entry lux sedans."

    That is exactly "it". We are talking about 3 to 3.5L 6 cylinder engines that power cars that weigh between 3200/3300 to 3500/3600 (just a guess). At this weight point and engine size there is a reasonable expectation of decent gas mileage if you have the ability to cruise at an even pace down the freeway. There also is an expection of reasonable gas mileage if you live in a congested area like I do. Along with reasonable gas mileage there is an expectation of snappy acceleration and crisp handling.

    The TL and 3 fulfill the expectation of reasonable gas mileage, and that is where the G falls short relative to these two cars. It's just one of the criteria one looks at when choosing a car.
  • klpeelklpeel Member Posts: 46
    Excellent post. If the TL had rear-wheel biased AWD, that would probably have been my choice. A4 and 3-series are great cars, but not quite the size or price point that best suited my wants (in this price range, as you pointed out, we can hardly say "needs").
  • lmacmillmacmil Member Posts: 1,758
    "I think today most people look at fuel economy. I'm fairly certain people who buy the $40K+ RX400h pay particular attention to the fuel numbers."

    Has anyone on this forum posted that mileage was the deciding factor in their choice of an entry level lux perf sedan?

    And I'm fairly certain that very few of the RX400h buyers will recoup the extra cost in fuel savings and even more certain they don't care. They think they've done something to preserve natural resources by buying the hybrid. I think the jury is still out on that.
  • lmacmillmacmil Member Posts: 1,758
    "I know I can get 30+ running 95-100 in my 330i."

    With a highway EPA rating of 30 and the average speed of the highway cycle at 49mph, that seems like a stretch.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "Has anyone on this forum posted that mileage was the deciding factor in their choice of an entry level lux perf sedan?"

    Based on blueguys posts I would think he might. I also would.

    When gas costs $1.25 a gallon it didn't matter much. I would think at $3/gallon to some people who might have to drive 100+ miles a day it may matter.
  • humphryhumphry Member Posts: 4
    I find it really strange. Up until reading these posts I never thought of comparing my G35 coupe with a 3 series in terms of mileage and I have had my car for over 2 years. The manufacturers don't even market them based on the mileage factor. Imagine a BMW ad ".....Get the new 3 series, the most fuel efficient car in it's class". These cars are Sport Coupes (or Sedan) . Not economy cars. They are about sportiness, that is styling, handling, power, speed, ride, gadgets, and toys. Even at todays gas prices that is how I still see my G35 coupe....even though I walked away from the pump the last time with a sigh I still powered it down the highway after leaving the gas station.

    I bought my G35 Coupe based on styling, power, ride, fun to drive, gadgets, falls within my budget. I like myu cars to have a nice interior but I was willing to settle with the interior of the G35 considering all the other plus factors. In addition, every other Joe in my neighbourhood has a 3 series. Now that I am seeing the G35 Coupe everywhere I go I want to change it again, but I would probably go more for a CLK because it has really good features and it is not as popular as some other cars and it wouldn't be for the gas mileage.

    :confuse:
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    You make some very good points.

    That you admitted walking away from the pump with a sigh...I would imagine a lot of people are doing that nowadays. However, I guess a question to ask is: "Would current and future gas prices influence your next purchase decision"?

    Within the boundaries of the Entry Level Luxo Sedan forum, that is. :)
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    With a highway EPA rating of 30 and the average speed of the highway cycle at 49mph, that seems like a stretch.

    I don't care if you think it's a stretch...it's reality for most of us who own manual 330is. The car's ludicrously efficient on the open road at hyper-legal speeds. In 6th gear at 80 the engine's not even touching 3k rpm. .
  • klpeelklpeel Member Posts: 46
    kdshaprio, based on your earlier posts, it sounds to me that fuel economy was not the "deciding factor" at all, just an extra benefit. It sounds to me that the deciding factor for you was superior performance in a small sedan, pure and simple.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Shrug, to each his own. I buy for the whole package. Handling, power, driving position/erognomics, efficiency, etc.

    At this time I'm more likely to end up in a Miata or S2000 than any luxury sport model as most of them either bore me (tl, c class, IS250/350 - safe to assume considering it lacks a manual, cts) or I have issues with build/engineering quality (g35, A4, 330i). The miata's razor sharp handling, impeccable reliability, 30+ freeway mileage and low price (26k loaded - or 24k off the lot) gets my eyebrow to raise. :D

    Maybe the IS350 with auto will be fun. I find that highly doubtful.
  • humphryhumphry Member Posts: 4
    To be quite honest...I have thought about the new Miata as well as my next car after the G35 and I think that too would also be a good buy...only problem would be the 2 seats which was one of the reasons I didn't get the Z....otherwise the Miata is an excellent little ride.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    '...just an extra benefit'

    klpeel...that is true. I acquired my last car when gas prices where in the $1.60/$1.80 range. Now they are in the $2.59/$279 range.

    If I had to buy another car today with prospects of $3.50/gallon for gas in the near future it would be the 3 series.
  • humphryhumphry Member Posts: 4
    I really couldn't see myself changing my G35 coupe for any other vehicle in the class. I think I would probably enjoy the all wheel drive in the G35x but I just don't enjoy the style of the sedan enough to make that change. Strangely enough if I had to switch brands/model I would probably take a close look at the TL first because it has a nice style, nice interior, roomy, lots of power, comfortable ride, nice features and gadgets, right price, but I am not sure if I could like the handling and the FWD.
  • quasiactuaryquasiactuary Member Posts: 50
    Are you really saying that you would buy a 3 series in the future mainly for the gas savings? $7,000+ will buy a lot of gas. If you want to say that you'd buy a 3 series because you think it is $7,000+ better than the G, fine. I don't agree, but I can respect that opinion (and lots of people agree with you). But to say that you'll buy a 3 series because you think it will be cheaper than a G? That $7,000+ premium you pay for a 3 series will still buy 2,000+ gallons of gas even at $3.50 a gallon.
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    2005 G35 auto: 18/25 (average: 21.5)
    2006 330i auto: 21/29 (average: 25)

    So, on average, the 330i gets 3.5 more miles per gallon (16%) more gallon than the G35. Not surprising seeing as how the 330i has less power and one more gear.

    If you drive 15,000 miles per year, the 330i will require 600 gallons and the G35 will require 700 gallons. So, at $3.00 per gallon, that's a difference of $300 per year.

    Just the interest on your $7000 savings will get $300 per year.
  • minarets1minarets1 Member Posts: 49
    i can get employee pricing on a G35...and my next car will either be a G35 sedan or 330i. the cost of a 330i optioned how i would like is not worth the $7000 premium on the sticker. but with Euro delivery, you can save close to $5000 on that same vehicle.

    now i drive 85 miles round trip a day. that coupled with these other 2 factors make the mpg argument in my head a little more interesting. will i really save or do better for myself with a 330i because oin the highway i will get 30mpg and with a G35 i will prolly realistically see 23mpg?

    optioned the way i want with disocunts included

    G35: $ 34,000
    330i: $37,000

    so a $3k difference. will that be worth the mpg?
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    If you have the luxury of cruising down the highway to get to work, the E90 should get you 34 after it's broken in.

    I have about 20 miles of stop and go traffic into work, so I don't really count on getting good gas mileage.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Gas mileage (real world)

    2005 G35 auto: 15-18/22-25
    2006 330i auto: 20-24/29-34

    I would buy a 3 series because it's my favorite car. The good gas mileage is a bonus.
  • klpeelklpeel Member Posts: 46
    Yes, but "just an extra benefit" is different from the "deciding factor." Can't be both.

    Oops, just noticed post 4286. You confirm the "extra benifit" and disavow the "deciding factor."
  • klpeelklpeel Member Posts: 46
    By the time you are back in the market for a car, the TL might come with an AWD option that would also fix some of the handling issues.
  • minarets1minarets1 Member Posts: 49
    yes, my 85 miles a day are 98% highway miles. i drive mostly highway miles anyway. i live about 30 miles from where i do most of my living...meaning my freinds and family live about 35 miles away from where i live...so i am always on the road to and from

    but again, my 85 miles roundtrip are all highway miles....does that really justify the cost difference? over a year?
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Are you really saying that you would buy a 3 series in the future mainly for the gas savings? $7,000+ will buy a lot of gas. If you want to say that you'd buy a 3 series because you think it is $7,000+ better than the G, fine. I don't agree, but I can respect that opinion (and lots of people agree with you). But to say that you'll buy a 3 series because you think it will be cheaper than a G? That $7,000+ premium you pay for a 3 series will still buy 2,000+ gallons of gas even at $3.50 a gallon.

    Well a 330i with the doodads I want is 40,500 - or about 35.5 via ED. Best I can do on a loaded G35 is probably 32k. So really it's a 3-4k difference. :D

    Don't bother mentioning the cost of going to europe. Got a lot of friends (including my last GF) there, so I'd make a vacation of it.
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    "Gas mileage (real world)

    2005 G35 auto: 15-18/22-25
    2006 330i auto: 20-24/29-34"

    Sure, b/c what your "friends" are getting represents the real world numbers of all G35's and 330i's.

    BTW, I got a friend who got the 2006 330i auto, he's getting 20 mpg combined. I also have friends and relatives who have the G35. They're getting 22 mpg combined. But I'm not going to argue with my anecdotal limited sample that the G35 gets better mileage than the 330i.

    Sure, you can find people on internet forums who complain that their G35 doesn't get EPA mileage. But you know what, EVERY car has some people complaining that they don't get good mileage... TL's, Accords, 3 series, G35, Prius, etc.

    So, for comparison purposes, I will take EPA ratings any day of the week, not the unsubstantiated, BMW-biased "real world" numbers of a BMW owner.
  • minarets1minarets1 Member Posts: 49
    that is the only way i think i could do it is the Euro Delivery....pretty much cuts off 5k of sticker. sure you will pay about 1200 to fly there and back but that is still better then paying the extra 5k

    euro delivery is really the only way to make the 330i competitive as far as pricing goes with the real competition.

    the G35 is so attractive to me becuase i do not have to do any of that. i can get a great price by going to a dealer and buying one. but then again gas isnt going to be getting any cheaper in the foreseeable future--that would def raise my brow to a car that can get 34mpg highway (again, prolly 75% of my driving is highway miles)
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    You can think what you want.

    However, I am not the only one who believes the gas mileage in the G35 is horrible if you drive the car as intended. As opposed to coasting down a hill in neutral.

    Even the EPA themselves admits these tests are far out of date.

    So in the end, if you want, you can believe the 3 series is a gas guzzler, while the G35 just leisurely sips gas.
  • bmwe90bmwe90 Member Posts: 16
    When I owned my G35, the best I got was about 26 on the hwy (I take a 2 lane trek across the state to visit family once a month at about 60-65 mph) In my 3 series, I get over 34 mpg doing the same trek. Normal driving around town in the G netted me about 16-17 while the 3 gets about 22-23. The Infiniti doesn't necessarily qualify it for a federal gas guzzler tax but it's mpg numbers arent good anyway you look at it.
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    Of course I can think what I want. No need for you to tell me that.

    Also, I never said that the 3 is a gas guzzler, while the G35 sips gas. So please don't tell me what I do or do not believe.

    You stated that in the real world in general, the 330i consistently gets BETTER than EPA estimates, while the G35 consistently gets WORSE than EPA estimates.

    I am asking, aside from your anecdotal "friends", do you have any evidence to back this up?
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Here is what I wrote:

    2005 G35 auto: 15-18/22-25
    2006 330i auto: 20-24/29-34"

    Here is what bmwe90 wrote:

    "When I owned my G35, the best I got was about 26 on the hwy (I take a 2 lane trek across the state to visit family once a month at about 60-65 mph) In my 3 series, I get over 34 mpg doing the same trek. Normal driving around town in the G netted me about 16-17 while the 3 gets about 22-23. The Infiniti doesn't necessarily qualify it for a federal gas guzzler tax but it's mpg numbers arent good anyway you look at it."

    Seems as if at least one person who I don't personally know is corroborating my "anecdotal" evidence.

    "I am asking, aside from your anecdotal "friends", do you have any evidence to back this up?"

    How am I going to have evidence? MPG is dependent on a lot a factors, some of which we control, some we don't.
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