Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

byronwalter · May 2005

The S4 Cab is a great looking car. Best of luck with it!

As of now I've driven the STi, TL, an '05 & '06 330i and the new A4 two liter with a stick. The A4 seems like a pretty good deal compared to the 330i (I guess that the two liter really should be compared to the 325). There was about a month between the A4 and Bimmer drive so I can't pretend to give any sort of objective comparison... other than to say that they are both great. Frankly I can live with the exterior of the 330 but it's the interior that seems wanting, especially compared to the Audi and the TL. For 40 big ones I expect not only excellent road manners but an interior commensurate with the price. Later this year I'll go back and give the A4 another spin and mostly likely buy one.

But my fav was actually the STi. That little car ducks and weaves like Ali and growls like a Tasmanian Devil in heat. Anyone that considers themselves a car enthusiast should consider taking one for a spin. But the Subie is a bit thirsty and frankly I feel that things are going to get nasty in the energy sector. I currently manage a little better than 26 mpg with my '02 A4 and guess that the new A4 2.0t can even do a little better which is pretty good for AWD.

Ah... the hard choices we must make...

Byron

frisconick · May 2005

Great post again Byron! I can't justify the price of the 330i when the G35 can get you OTD for 30,000, and the TL for about 34,000. Plus BMW dealers won't bargain. In addition 90% of my driving is highway so a TL automatic seems like the logical choice, but I am totally in love with the G35 coupe. Oh God, give me a sign

designman · May 2005

...I am totally in love with the G35 coupe. Oh God, give me a sign.

I think it's a Psalm which ends like this... "Love never fails."

designman · May 2005

But my fav was actually the STi...
Ah... the hard choices we must make...

Read post above.

;-)

byronwalter · May 2005

You know, whenever I see a G35 I "know" that it is a great car and looks good but for some reason the looks just don't work for me. Now out of all the aforementioned cars the TL is the looker. Looks great from every angle. And all those bucks saved (vs a BMW) can buy stacks of my favorite things: high-fat ice cream, bacon, burritos, burgers, and memberships to exclusive gyms to work off all the burritos :P

BTW, apparently some BMW dealers will bargin... just not the ones in NE Ohio. But still the price is a bit much.

Byron

al57 · May 2005

I am looking to possibly pick up a 2005 or wait until 2006 TL,Can someone give me some valid driving experiences in the snow (live in New York) especailly those without the Bridgestone tires and how long do the michelins last .i now own a 2000 Maxima SE which is terible in the snow.and dont want to experience the same problems .Also,if snow tires are needed must you buy for all 4 wheels and how much do you pay for a wide profile tire as those..all help is appreciated..The Maxima tire prices are out of control and last about 25K miles

frisconick · May 2005

Know doubt the TL is this best deal

ljwalters1 · May 2005

"Also,if snow tires are needed must you buy for all 4 wheels"

I don't have the experience to respond to most of your questions, but can tell you that if you need snow tires, you need them for all 4 tires. In fact, a website that sells tires (might be Tire Rack - not sure) will only sell snow tires as a set of 4.

tstreet · May 2005

Not sure if it was a fair fight, seeing as the M35 is about 8-10k more, but I gave each of these cars an extensive road test. I have 2 friends with TLs and I have really fallen for them. However, after I tried Infiniti's M35, I never went back to the TL. At first glance the M35 is priced near 50k as seen on most dealer lots, but I soon realized that was with their "sport" edition. Turns out their base model rides much smoother, similar to the TL, and is only 40k. I opted for a couple packages and left the dealer at 44.6k Ultimately, the performance is pretty similar. They're both in that 270-280 HP range. I ended up making my decision on interior features and "uniqueness". One key factor was road noise - this was a hands down winner for the M35. As a frequent L.A. freeway driver, and as someone that often has passengers, this was important. Other things I preferred on the M35 - Standard 18" wheels (19" on the sport), more back seat leg room, and way more exterior color options. That said, the TL is probably still the best buy on the market, but I love my M35.

fedlawman · May 2005

I don't think the M35 is an "entry-level" sedan.

laurasdada · May 2005

Hi, Al:

I'm in the Boston area with an '05 non-nav TL, Bridgestone Turanza EL42 tires. They are the worst tires in the snow that I've experienced in almost 30 years of driving (at least that I remember!). I got through this past snowy winter with the aid of all the traction electronics, common snow-driving sense and luck! We took the wife's RX300 on our few ski trips, but if I was going to regularly take my TL to ME, NH, VT etc. I would definately buy four snows or at the very least upgrade to a much better snow performing all-season.

In addition, I believe these tires flat spot (maybe that 's a characteristic of low profile tires?) which is a bit annoying. Other than that, they seem ok. If you get a NAV model, or 6MT I think you'll get different tires which others would have to comment on, snow-wise.

Other than the tires, I'm really enjoying the TL. Applied three coats of Zaino on Sunday, the Abyss Blue looks great!

laurasdada · May 2005

TST, good post. It's funny, I bought my TL over the G35X because I found the TL to be much smoother, quieter ride and nicer interior style/materials. Not to mention the superior exterior style of the TL.

Probably a more apples to apples comparison would have been the RL to the M35. But luckily, we both made the right choice in our purchases! Congrats, enjoy the M. It really is a nice piece of work. Infiniti's on a roll!

billyperks · May 2005

always show the frontal and side views of the M and never a rear angle shot?

Hmmmmm.

esfoad · May 2005

I bought the G35X over the TL for a couple of reasons. Nav was not important to me since I have an aftermarket Garmin that suits my purposes. I feel that the G35 has a roomier interior. I also liked the all wheel drive functionality for the winter but that it is all but off when you don't need it making the car feel like a rear driver. I grew up driving rear drive vehicles and I just prefer them. THe wife drives a Saab 9-3 Aero convertible and it's a great machine but the torque steer, while minimized, is still annoying. It's really splitting hairs here. These are both fabulous cars. It amazes me that the manufacturers have improved so much over the years. What a great time to be buying cars. I hope everyone enjoys their purchase, whatever it may be.

aaargh · May 2005

I feel that the G35 has a roomier interior.

That's odd, because I came to the exact opposite conclusion. I think the G35 is taller and narrower and has a bit more rear-seat leg room than the TL. But the rear-seat head-room on the TL I found much better. I know you can recline the G's back seat, but I found it to be uncomfortable when reclined.

As far as space is concerned, the TL felt wider (roomier), more like a Grand Prix compared to the G35 which I felt was similar to a Grand Am. (The 2 Pontiacs were my last 2 cars before the TL).

I wish the TL had better storage compartments though.

ljwalters1 · May 2005

I agree with you regarding the TL feeling roomier than the G. I bet the measurements are similar, but some aspect just makes the G feel more closed-in to me. Maybe it's as simple as the fact that the G35 I drove had a black interior - that could've made it seem smaller.

Regardless I'm happy with the TL, and not sure what other storage space you would want, aaargh. We've got side door sill pockets that expand; a bi-level center console that's so deep they added a light to it; rear seatbacks; a little flip-out drawer in the back of the center console; closable/concealable cupholders; 2 drawers in the center-stack (maybe more if you don't have nav); and a decent-sized glove box. Only thing I can figure is you want a sunglass-holder in the roof or a drawer under the dash on the left side. Overall, I think there's a lot of storage space.

esfoad · May 2005

I guess it's each to his/her own regarding space. They must be very similar. Once again, they are both great cars. The TL is on everybody's best buy list and the G35 is constantly compared to the BMW 3 series. I think either choice is a good one.

dhanley · June 2005

> G35 can get you OTD for 30,000, and the TL for about 34,000. Plus BMW dealers won't bargain.

Au contraire. The dealer i spoke to seemed willing to sell me a 330i for $1500 over euro invoice. 330+metallic paint+winter package ( xenons, suroof, logic 7 sterio, etc standard ) - $500 CCA discount = $34,000

> In addition 90% of my driving is highway so a TL automatic seems like the logical choice,

What? I thought city driving was the reason people try to excuse their laziness.

dave

blueguydotcom · June 2005

I can't justify the price of the 330i when the G35 can get you OTD for 30,000, and the TL for about 34,000. Plus BMW dealers won't bargain.

Huh, that's just not true about bmw dealers being unwilling to haggle. furthermore, if you really want savings, get the 3 series via ED. 4-5k off msrp. An e90 330i outfitted with leather, sport, metallica paint is about 35k before 1k dealer profit.

sid3 · June 2005

I went for a test ride for both the G35 and the TL and found the TLl way more quieter than the Infiniti. I loved the interior of G35 and the price too.
The only deterrent was the noice level. It was just too much noice for the money.
I wanted a quiet car for all this money.

The dealer callled me today and mentioned that the car I did the test drive had a sports package fitted on it and that was the probable cause fro the noise. He has asked me to drive one with the standard option.

What do you suggest? Is it going to be any different that what I have experienced or is the sports package designed to hear the vrooooooommmmmmm....
Suggestions will be appreciated.

lmacmil · June 2005

You should drive them back to back to get a good comparison. The audio memory is very short so if you drive them even a day apart, you might not be able to tell the difference. The sport package adds stiffer suspension but I'm not sure that it would change the exhaust note.

jamesspot · June 2005

I drove all three (with automatics) on an autocross course last year. Here's my take:

G35: The muscle car of the bunch. Powerful, thirsty, noisier engine. The car the folks running the event told me after my lap to "keep it down." It will power slide in a heartbeat! Would be the fastest with a good driver who could maximize its engine potential. Enough interior room to scare 4 other people along with the driver.

TL: The luxury bargain of this class. Plowed in hard turns, but a comfortable ride and a roomy, luxurious, and quiet interior. The one for a highway road trip with 4 passengers. Fast enough to merge on ANY expressway, but not adept on a tight-turning course.

330i: I haven't driven the E90, yet, but the E46 platform was the balanced sport sedan. Faster for me on the track because of the smooth power, even braking, and outstanding handling. Made me look smooth going flat out. Best for a 2 person car with occasional rear seat passengers.

ljwalters1 · June 2005

I don't recall whether it was in this forum or the G35 forum, but I heard others complain about noise, and some posters said they should check the tire pressure before the test drive. Apparently, cars are shipped with higher than normal air pressure, and the dealerships often forget to let some air out of the tires. These posters blamed road noise and a harsher ride on this issue.

esfoad · June 2005

You are right about tire pressure. My car was delivered with high air pressure. However, I don't understand why people here complain about the noise level of the G35. The growl of the engine is one of the nicest sounding factory systems on the planet">link title. For me, it's one of the enticing features of the sport sedan. If you want quiet, buy an ES330 or an Avalon.

laurasdada · June 2005

I actually enjoyed the engine growl when I tested the G35X. It was the wind and road noise that helped tip the scale in the TLs favor for me.

blueguydotcom · June 2005

For me, it's one of the enticing features of the sport sedan. If you want quiet, buy an ES330 or an Avalon.

My 330i with performance package will growl at WOT but at a steady 80-90 the car's engine and exhaust is quiet. Additionally, the engine noise is nice and sounds like something impressive is happening under the hood. In the G35 I felt the engine was abraisive, uneven and transmitted lots of NVH. Above 4k the engine made a terrible racket and the tranny sent way too much garbage through my arm - like driving an old american 4 cylinder.

esfoad · June 2005

I never tested the 330i so I can't report on it, but I did extensive tests between the TL and the G35X. I didn't notice a large difference in NVH between the two. The engine is defenitely louder in the G35X. I guess I was swayed some by the all wheel drive in the G35X. Also, my car is an automatic so the shifter vibration is a non issue.

blueguydotcom · June 2005

IS350RWD
http://www.lexus.ca/lexus/experience/en/home/vehicles/specs/BE262T2006/specs_features.jsp?- - model=BE262T&year=2006

310 hp? 280 lb-ft of torque? Could be the a rocket. But how will it handle?

draknad · June 2005

I was wondering. It looks like BMW has a very weak engine (2.5) for
the same price (30,000) G35, CTS, or anything.
What is the great deal about: 2.5L 184hp, 175lb. (2005 model) ??
This power seems extremely weak, almost volkswagen jetta power.
Is the ride really that good, worth 30K?
I'm thinking about G35, CTS vs 325, around 30K
Thanks in advance.

-thedrak

blueguydotcom · June 2005

I was wondering. It looks like BMW has a very weak engine (2.5) for
the same price (30,000) G35, CTS, or anything.
What is the great deal about: 2.5L 184hp, 175lb. (2005 model) ??

Jump to the e90 and get 215 hp then.

This power seems extremely weak, almost volkswagen jetta power.
Is the ride really that good, worth 30K?
I'm thinking about G35, CTS vs 325, around 30K
Thanks in advance.

Drive them. It's in the drive. Stat wise an 05 G35 6MT with 298 hp should motor past the 05 330i performance package. In reality BMW's 235 hp 3.0 gets the job done and seems to match a car with 60+ more hp. Voodoo?

BTW an 05 325i goes for about 5k below sticker right now. An 05 330i is 7-8k below sticker.

kasperghost · June 2005

I never really understood it until I drove one. Yes it's HP is on the low side, but the gearing is lower. Read the Edmunds customer rating reviews...

Good luck in your search.

Look at the 06?

kdshapiro · June 2005

The BMW hallmark of driving is smoothness and predictability. Smoothness at any speed, predictable at all speeds.

draknad · June 2005

I have not drivin one, but I think I will.
But I'm thinking, is it really worth 2X as much as a Jetta, with the same power.
Or, I'm thinking, test drive vs owning is different. Plus I really don't think
a BMW will drive/feel that much better then a G35, CTS.
30K can get 400 hp, 300 hp, at least > 200 hp and luxury as well.
Since we are speaking performance, I have to really drive to see
if 184hp is really worth the $30K
performance/value vs 300hp or 250hp
Interesting.
Thanks.

-thedrak

actually, now that I think about it
184hp for $30K performance,
sounds silly, almost Ludicrous

kdshapiro · June 2005

The drive of the G35 is unrefined compared to the 3 series. 298 hp does not equal superior handling over the BMW. But this of course does not mean one would not want a CTS, G35, TL, TSX etc over the 3 series. Then again some people chose the 325 over the G35, because they dig the better overall road feel and handling.

cybersol · June 2005

310 hp? 280 lb-ft of torque? Could be the a rocket. But how will it handle?

Well, Lexus made the IS300 handle extremely well. So if they choose to, they can surely make it handle. With that sweet engine, hopefully they get the gearing down more than they did with the old IS300.

So at this point I am more concerned about two things with the new IS. Can they restrain the electronic nanny enough to make it fun? But most of all, even if they get everything right, what will they decide to charge? I fear Lexus has realized they have some brand cachet to bank on.

Enjoy, cybersol

equan · June 2005

Not adding much but my 2¢.
I agree with the posting #3496 (jamesspot) and with the concerns of posting #3934 (sid3). IMO the G35 handles very well, and comparing the price and reliability issues to a 330i, I was seriously considering one. However, when testing it out, I found the noise level unacceptable (for me) and would never buy it on that issue alone - I'm not a twenty year old. The TL is just as jamesspot reviewed - he described my brother's driving style perfectly. My brother is a retired banker and he loves the car. I recently purchased a CPO 330Cic for my wife - she loves the convertible. I'm looking forward to testing out the IS250/350. I liked the IS300 performance/handling a lot but it was a little small and boy racer for me. If the new one handles close to the BMW and with a competitive price, I'd sell my 540iA for one.
Regardless, all these cars are great - we're fortunate to have so much choice.

kdshapiro · June 2005

Why has BMW resisted going to a 3.5 liter engine? The numbers from BMWs new engines are impressive, but the competition is moving up to 3.5 liters.

Some thoughts:

1. They are trying to keep the power in the engines commesurate with the overall line up and the introduction of a 3.5L would throw everything off.

2. They want their gas guzzlers to be the big 8 cylinder engines. Comparing the 3.5L in the G35 to the old 3L in the E46, a friend who has a simliar commute as me gets 17 mpg, where I get 24. One can't have it both ways. A bigger engine that is thrifty on gas, but long on performance, unless they play with the gearing. One can probably expect real-world numbers to be in-line with the G35.

3. The heavier engine throws off the delicate balance of the car.

4. A 3.5 engine would not substantially make the car faster. People who post in the forums constantly say the G35 feels much faster than the 330i, but the stats as quoted in the magazines over the years don't really bear that out.

kasperghost · June 2005

Kd- good points, and...

I think part of the engine size/power has to do with an auto makers philosophy. Ford, BMW and Honda all seem to subscribe to "Selling well, don't change it." For years, Ford's top selling Explorer sported a massive 160 hp and a stump pullin' 160(?) lbs. of torque, 4 ltr. engine. It sold well, why change it? In general, the big three tend to follow this model with Ford being the most conservative. Honda is another example. I think that BMW follows this as well.

Also, why do we need more and more? These automakers have all done well with the "We don't need more (fill in the blank) to compete" philosophy. They take what they have and refine and polish. When we bought our Pathfinder, we looked at the Explorer and liked a lot of the features; many of them very simple like the ability to fold the rear seats without taking the headrests off. Our Accord is a much more thought out car than our Pathfinder. I'll be sad to see it go.

lmacmil · June 2005

"Why has BMW resisted going to a 3.5 liter engine? The numbers from BMWs new engines are impressive, but the competition is moving up to 3.5 liters."

Other than the G35, who else in this class has a 3.5 liter engine? TL is at 3.2, A4 is 1.8 to 3.0, Lexus ES is 3.3, Mercedes C-class is 2.4-3.2. Now that they've tweaked the 3 liter to 255 hp, why bother with another configuration?

I think the G35 is geared lower than most of the competition, which is how it gets its slight acceleration advantage but fuel economy suffers. If you look at the road test stats, the G is turned at lot higher rpm than most of the competition at highway speeds.

shipo · June 2005

"Other than the G35, who else in this class has a 3.5 liter engine? TL is at 3.2, A4 is 1.8 to 3.0, Lexus ES is 3.3, Mercedes C-class is 2.4-3.2."

Well, not quite. The new C and E Class Mercedes are available with a 3.5 liter V6, and the new Lexus IS is going to be available with either a 2.5 liter or a 3.5 liter V6.

Best Regards,
Shipo

draknad · June 2005

BMW has always been way behind in engine power.
But for some reason, everyone seems to ignore the weak engine, overpriced facts.
Perhaps magazine numbers show BMW's with descent acceleration, but
184 hp, 225hp is still < (300hp or 255hp).
but both cost $30,000.
I think BMW's have been overhyped, especially by all magazine reviews.
Does a BMW really peform/feel better then a more powerful G35?
I don't think so.
horsepower is part of performance, and BMW's have been way weak for
a long time, that's a fact.
if anyone's looked at hp numbers, BMW 3's have been under 200hp for years.
(3 years ago, 330 finally made it above 200hp)
$30,000 for < 200hp...??

CTS 3.6L 255hp.

draknad · June 2005

2000
323 170 hp, 181 lbft (26,250)
328 193 hp, 206 lbft (30,220)

2001 - 2005
325 184 hp, 175 lbft (29,300)
330 225 hp, 214 lbft (31, 050)

G35 260 hp, 260 lbft (27,646)
TL (3.2) 270 hp, 238 lbft (33,650)
CTS (3.6) 255 hp, 252 lbft (32,440)

2006
325 215 hp, 185 lbft (30,300)
330 255 hp, 220 lbft (36,300)

G35 298 hp, 260 lbft (30,750)
TL (3.2) 270 hp, 238 lbft (33,100)
CTS (3.6) 255 hp, 252 lbft (32,440)
IS (3.5) 300 hp (~30K)

BMW 3's are underpowered, overpriced

blueguydotcom · June 2005

BMW has always been way behind in engine power.
But for some reason, everyone seems to ignore the weak engine, overpriced facts.

Obviously you're a bmw hater and you've not really driven one. HP means nothing if the cars don't really compare when driven. How the blazes can a 300 hp G35 not outrun a 330i performance package with its "weak" 235 hp engine? For one second step back from your stats and actually experience the two.

Perhaps magazine numbers show BMW's with descent acceleration, but
184 hp, 225hp is still < (300hp or 255hp). but both cost $30,000. I think BMW's have been overhyped, especially by all magazine reviews. Does a BMW really peform/feel better then a more powerful G35?

you may not think so, but you've not driven them apparently. Even people who opt for a G35 will admit the cars have distinctly different personalities.

I don't think so. horsepower is part of performance, and BMW's have been way weak for a long time, that's a fact. if anyone's looked at hp numbers, BMW 3's have been under 200hp for years. (3 years ago, 330 finally made it above 200hp) $30,000 for < 200hp...?? CTS 3.6L 255hp.

The 2001 330i is over 200 hp - 225 to be exact. at that time there wasn't any real competition for the 3 series (IS300 had already floundered). In 2003 the G35 arrived and finally put some heat on the 3 series. The TL's sold well and will continue to without hurting BMW as it's not aimed at the same kinda driver. MB's never been big on power and Audi wasn't all that either. Only over the last 3 years has HP become a big issue (many would point to the G35 as the impetus for this).

Actually drive the cars, then comment on if it makes a difference that Caddy's CTS makes 255 hp or Infiniti's G pulls 298. Once ya drive them you'll see it's not all about the engine numbers. Audi's 3300 lb A3 with automatic (DSG) and a 2 liter 200 hp engine runs 6.2-6.3 0-60 dashes...in 2003 the 260 hp automatic G35 with the 3.5 VQ ran 6.2-6.3 0-60 dashes. Obviously, there's more to acceleration than a big engine.

frisconick · June 2005

Bought my wife a TL and I love the car, and love how fast it is, now it's time for me to buy my car and I am in a nice delima. I don't want two TLs in the garage, so it's between a G35 coupe, or a BMW M3 or 330Ci. The price of the M3 seems way out of line, but the 330Ci is reasonable as well as the G35, but they are all very different cars. I live near San Francisco and do a lot of freeway driving to the TL makes a lot of sense. The G35 is distinct (BMWs are all over the place) there are not many on the road.

kdshapiro · June 2005

blueguy is spot on. HP means nothing is the car can't manage it or the torque curve is doesn't support the cars personality.

You should do yourself a favor and take an E90 330 out for a long drive on a windy road. Then come back and say the car is underpowered, overpriced and doesn't handle well.

While I'm not suggesting you automatically like BMW because it's a BMW, doing some research never hurts. For starters here's a first drive review by Edmunds on the new E90 330. The title is: The Next 3 Is Still the One to Beat

http://www.edmunds.com/new/2006/bmw/3series/100530523/roadtestarticle.html?articleId=10467- - 0

draknad · June 2005

I'll point to one of your comments.
g35 vs 330.
not direct comparison, but the CTS V and STS V both finish
the Nurburgring faster then BMW's, but yet no one seems to notice,
and still consider BMW's as better performance. Performance means
numbers, that means results at a track.
Where you find G35 outrunning 330? outrunning 0-60 or at a track?
Performance, I'm thinking numbers, not feel.
I think feel, is opinion, and owners usually report "I like" the feel of their own cars.
Feel is harder to convert to $ value.

kdshapiro · June 2005

1. Actually the new upcoming 550 will just about eat the CTS-V/STS-V for lunch. While it's true the CTS-V beat the old 540 at the track. There was never any head to head comparison, only the publicity released by Cadillac.

2. Actually if you ever drove a BMW you would understand why it's very easy to convert feel to $. In addition, you have to pay $$$ to feed that thirsty 3.5L G35 engine.

kasperghost · June 2005

Conspiracy! All car rags throughout the world are paid off by BMW to shovel schlock to the masses! I new I was missin' something. :P

draknad · June 2005

G35: 19/26
330i: 19/27
CTS: 17/27

So it doesn't seem gas milage is much a factor for perf sedan car choice.

albanytim · June 2005

Not sure about where you live, but here in the Northeastern US diesel is too inconvenient. I was driving a rental truck last week in the Philly area and drove by 5 or 6 gas stations before we found one that sold diesel.

Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

Comments

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles