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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

18485878990435

Comments

  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,498
    that there are people on here even older than me.

    The first time I made a 4-wheel vehicle (rode a Lambretta scooter earlier) go down the road was on a fish hatchery on the Fort Apache Indian Reservation in AZ, with a three on the tree. The previous several vehicles for our faimily had similar transmissions. The thing was amazingly gutless ('60 Chev BelAir), and I still remember trying to get over Red Mountain Pass in CO, while people on foot (not really) passed us. The transmission wasn't the issue -- the six was.

    Still only want to drive manuals. Mostly because they (almost) never break, and when they do, they're cheaper to fix. I tried automatics, and it wasn't pretty.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • laurasdadalaurasdada Member Posts: 4,686
    It's better than the alternative!

    Just finished applying coat #7 of Zaino (Z5 this time, see if I can cover up a few parking lot scrapes). This may be my first true addiction! At least one more coat of Z2 before Ole' Man Winter comes around (being New England, that could be next Thursday!)

    '21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)

  • frisconickfrisconick Member Posts: 1,275
    Your posts are great laurasdada :P

    I learned to drive in San Francisco, and with all the very steep hills, I had trouble with a MT when it would slide backwards and hit cars behind me. Once I got the hang of it, I really didn't like working the stick and clutch all the time because I am basically lazy, so call me a passenger!!! :P
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Hmm. Having learned to drive stick at 10, I've always found automatics to be less than involving.

    I remember my dad - who was always trying to find ways to keep me off the roads (he had no idea I was tearing around a friend's farm at insane speeds for 6 years) - told me I couldn't take my car (the one I bought with my own money) until I could prove I could start 10 times on a steep hill without the car rolling backward. I cracked off 10 starts. He griped and walked away.

    BTW, I'm entering my 9th day without a manual as a daily driver. I'm driving like an old lady now...totally disinterested in the journey.
  • laurasdadalaurasdada Member Posts: 4,686
    Thanks, Nick.

    I used to take pride in my ability to take off from stop on a steep hill. I used to seek out challenges, never slid back in to a car behind me. I haven't driven a stick since late '01 so I' sure I'd need some practice.

    Took the TL on an unprofitabel road trip today. 170 miles, 75% highway, 25% local roads. Overall averaged 30mpg @ 56mph. For just the highway portion (one way) I averaged 32mpg @68mph. I'm impressed. Beautiful day for a drive, ugly day to play blackjack... :cry:

    '21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)

  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    I personally have nothing against driving a slushbox. I've driven some fun ones and some plush ones, and enjoyed them both in their own way. I just wouldn't want to own one as my only car.

    So, if you're looking for the perfect car - one that costs between $30,000 and $35,000, is reliable, sporty and fun, yet luxurious and comfortable in rush hour traffic, may I recommend...

    A 2001 Mazda Miata 5-speed AND a 2001 Lexus LS400.

    BTW, I finally got to read the C&D comparo and the R&T IS350 review. It sounds like they both agree the IS350 is a terrific performance sedan, but one that places luxury above driving dynamics - in other words, as a "driver's car," it's no threat to the 3-series.

    Personally, I like a car that communicates what the tires are doing. I'll gladly sacrifice .5 secs in the 1/4 mile to drive a car that encourages and rewards good driving technique and puts a smile on my face. In this segment, it would seem BMW is still top dog.
  • ventureventure Member Posts: 2,860
    I have three coats of Z-2 PRO with the ZFX Flash Cure Accelerator applied and was thinking about applying a coat or two of Z-5 also and a few more Z-2 afterwards.

    How did the Z-5 do on the marks? I have a few very light swirl marks that I wouldn't mind getting rid of. :confuse:

    2020 Ascent Limited, 2024 Subaru Legacy Sport

  • rotoryfanrotoryfan Member Posts: 111
    Handling: Definitely not
    Gas efficiency: Definitely not
    Ride: No
    Room: Definitely not


    Wow... when did you get your test drive? Any more details you could pass on? Why did you not like the ride? Did you mean too little room in the back or the front?
    Oh wait, maybe you didn't actually drive the car. Maybe you are just talking out of your *** and do not have any actual emphirical data.

    P.S. read a review of the 3 series... a couple of surprising notes:
    - an electrical relay sitting in the front windshield's rain "gutter"
    - keyless entry but you have to put the key fob in a slot in order to start the car
    Amazing that such engineering (relay) or silly execution (slot) could be part of the "class leader" in intro lux sedans.
  • laurasdadalaurasdada Member Posts: 4,686
    The Z5 seems to do a good job on swirlies and light scratches. I have a series of scratches going down the rear passenger quarter panel (it looks like someone let my car be a bumper for a shopping cart :mad: ) and the 3 coats of Z5 have made them fairly invisible unless you are really looking closely. No swirl marks that I'm aware of. I'll Z2 again for the ultimate shine, though. I even like the way Zaino smells!

    What color is your car (a TL, I presume)?

    '21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)

  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "keyless entry but you have to put the key fob in a slot in order to start the car"

    This is dependent on the options in the car chosen.

    an electrical relay sitting in the front windshield's rain "gutter"

    ???

    Handling: Definitely not
    Gas efficiency: Definitely not
    Ride: No
    Room: Definitely not

    Weren't some of these comments from the comparo? I believe it was stated the rear seat is cramped. Now that may not matter to some people, but nonetheless it was stated. But these are all subjective anyway. You have to see what you like and don't like.

    HP isn't everything though.
  • mariner7mariner7 Member Posts: 509
    Definitely not everything!

    C&D had 3 categories: vehicle (won by TL), engine (by IS), chassis (by 330). 4 year-old G also bettered IS in chassis. C&D said IS lacks the poise of 3 or G.

    With next gen, G certainly will have better engine and chassis, and probably will handily repass IS. Lexus really didn't raise the bar that much.
  • ventureventure Member Posts: 2,860
    It sounds like I'm going to order some Z-5 and see how it does. I didn't order any because the car is only a few months old, but after getting three coats of Z-2 on it I can see the marks. No one else could probably see them because they haven't been as "intimate" with the finish as I have been in the last few weeks.

    It's a jet black BMW.

    Thanks

    2020 Ascent Limited, 2024 Subaru Legacy Sport

  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    They didn't raise the bar at all. They made a fast car. That's easily defeated by both infiniti and bmw.

    don't expect a new g35 for awhile though. the car's only a few years old. i wouldn't expect an all new g35 until 2008 or more likely 2009.
  • frisconickfrisconick Member Posts: 1,275
    I got the hang of a MT, but didn't really care for it. I can still drive a MT, and the new MT's are much easier to drive now. My first car was a pickup truck. :cry:

    I started checking the Alfa Romeo and found out they don't sell them in the US :cry: The Alfa is very similar to the TL, but does anyone know how much they cost?

    I am a statistician laurasdada, and I recommend you learn how to card count when playing blackjack, only in your head though. :P
  • frisconickfrisconick Member Posts: 1,275
    I don't think people around the country realize how steep some of the hills in San Francisco can be. California Street going up to the Fairmont Hotel is extremely steep. It scares tourists. :cry:
  • mariner7mariner7 Member Posts: 509
    "don't expect a new g35 for awhile though. the car's only a few years old. i wouldn't expect an all new g35 until 2008 or more likely 2009."

    Well, they're doing a lot of work on GTR, which will debut in a few months in Tokyo. Admittedly its engine and chassis are much more expensive than run of the mill G35. But at least some of the work, they should be able to carry over. So maybe 2.5 years from now, 3 at the most. A lot of work on M carries over also.

    C&D really panned A4, saying it stood still, getting gased by the competition. I guess something has to give when you're trying to develop the useless Bugatti and almost useless LM and Lamborghini.

    It'd be interesting if C350 was available. My guess is it'd finish ahead of or behind TL.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    I perfected my hand-brake launch start on some of those hills..
  • laurasdadalaurasdada Member Posts: 4,686
    I ordered the Z5 in addition to the Z2 as I have an Abyss Blue TL, my first darker color in a while. I started with two Z5 coats to hide swirlies and light scrapes, it seemed to do a good job (but won't perform miracles, of course) then on to Z2 for the higher optical properties. Nice results.

    Nick, I know how to count cards: An Ace and ten equals 11, so double down and take a card! :D (Which my wife actually did at a charity casino night. Math isn't her strong suit. She did get a ten, so turned a blackjack into a 21...).

    I'm a decent basic strategy player, but yesterday there were a couple of "inexperienced" players (one guy stuck on a soft 6!!! A 6!!!), that seemed to turn a profitable table around to the dark side One rather large gentleman in the sixth seat, who was enjoying fairly constant alcoholic beverages drove 'em away by eventually shouting at them, "You're working for the casino! Stop taking/not taking cards from the table! Geez, you must be working for the casino!!!". I shoulda walked a couple of shoes earlier than I did. Oh, well. I'm still up for the year.

    The nice, smooth, powerful, economical drive of the TL on the way home took some of the sting away. Not a whole lot, but some. :sick:

    '21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)

  • callmedrfillcallmedrfill Member Posts: 729
    That the line between sports-sedan and luxury sedan, excitement and ensconcment, attitude and aptitude, is a line they refuse to cross.

    Who asked for electronic steering?

    Or VDIM?

    Sports-sedan with automatic only?

    I'm sorry. "Luxury-performance sedan" with automatic only.

    New Slogans:

    Making safe cars too safe to drive.

    The Passionate Pursuit of Reticence.

    On-board driving instructor, standard!

    The Ultimate Frustration Machine!

    Ruler across the knuckles, standard on all 2006 models.

    Like an 8-year-old, afraid to jump into the deep-end of the swimming pool, the IS is "The Ultimate Poseur-mobile"

    Looks, runs, built, sized like a sports-sedan but with the soul of Brooke Shields.

    The base engine is too base, and the big-block will scare away the average Lexus customer.

    Lexus will sell it's 50k a year, but has surrendered a real chance at slaying the Last Dragon that is the BMW 3-series.

    I guess the Supra was the last time Toyota will ever cross the line.

    DrFill
  • odessitodessit Member Posts: 140
    Guys, don’t laugh but what is Z5, Z2 etc.? Is that some sort of car polish? If it is, how safe it is to apply that to a new car (bmw, dark blue)? Why would you even want to apply anything to a new car paint? I am under impression that any chemical applications to new car paint would void a warranty for paint. Is that right?
    mike
  • laurasdadalaurasdada Member Posts: 4,686
    Check out zainostore.com for answers. Zaino is a car polish system. It is safe and will not void a paint warranty. As, unless I'm wrong, there is no warranty just for paint... :confuse:
    Great stuff, especially for darker colors.

    '21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)

  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    It's time to get back to the cars, folks.

    Those who are interested can continue the Zaino conversation at that link; The Future Of The Manual Transmission will probably be of interest to a number of you and other off-topic subjects such as card-counting in blackjack need another forum altogether.

    Thanks.
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    "Handling: Definitely not
    Gas efficiency: Definitely not
    Ride: No
    Room: Definitely not

    Wow... when did you get your test drive? Any more details you could pass on? Why did you not like the ride? Did you mean too little room in the back or the front?
    Oh wait, maybe you didn't actually drive the car. Maybe you are just talking out of your *** and do not have any actual emphirical data."

    Haha, before you get bent all out of shape, you do realize that all posts here, positive or negative, are just speculation, specs derivation, and reviews derivation. In fact, we have 4473 posts of speculation. I would think that this would be assumed.

    I also made "speculative" comments that were very favorable to the IS350, yet you didn't have any beef about that or copy/paste that. I guess if it's something positive about the IS, you're fine with it, but if it's negative, God forbid . . .

    By the way, I stand by my comments. ZERO reviews so far have said that the IS350 sets the class standard in handling. We KNOW that the IS350 has less room than the G35, TL and even the 330i. And I will give you a COOKIE if the IS350 has better mileage than the 330i.

    The only thing maybe that I might change my mind about is the "ride" component. ;)
  • rotoryfanrotoryfan Member Posts: 111
    "Handling: Definitely not
    Gas efficiency: Definitely not
    Ride: No
    Room: Definitely not"

    Don't know how anyone can say "definately not" without test driving (or at least seeing) a car... Sure, this forum has a lot of speculation, I just find it strange that so many Beemer cult members are taking shots at the new IS if it is not "real" competition to the 3 series...why even bother to acknowledge such a lowly vehicle?
    In the final analysis, the sales numbers will be all that counts...and I think the IS will be very successful.

    So, if your mind is made up, here is a review of the 3 series to confirm your admiration for the handling. When you get past the handling aspects, consider the other traits/overall quality of the car... enjoy

    http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/content/11244693671382797373/index.php
  • odessitodessit Member Posts: 140
    Sorry for poor choice of words. I meant Rust Perforation Warranty (12 years).
  • laurasdadalaurasdada Member Posts: 4,686
    No, a wax or polish shouldn't affect the Rust Perf. Warranty (another reason not to buy "rust proofing" from the dealer!).

    I think C and D has a history of forgiving (overlooking) build and reliability flaws for cars that they love to drive. As its recent 50 year anniversary issue has pointed out, the mag basically started as an ode to British sports cars back in the '50s. And, as history has shown, we all know how reliable and well built British cars were! But they loved the driving experience, and that was the thrust of the relationship.

    C and D noted the imperfections, and because of their respect for the marque, downplayed it as far as rating the new 3. IMHO, of course. What a cool comparo, there's a car there for everyone!

    Another thought: BMW has been building BMWs for a long time. Acura, Lexus and Infiniti have been building "BMWs" for, what, five years? Give 'em a bit more time and who knows? The real winner? You and me, folks!!! :D

    '21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)

  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    are not "hype" - we all have different priorities and we are all entitled to them. Everyone here needs to recognize that someone else's priority is just as important to them as your own is to you, and NEITHER of you are right nor are you wrong.

    Some of you folks need to calm down and stop making this so personal. The cars are what they are and we make the choices we make to suit ourselves and not each other.

    We are here to compare the features of the cars in this class - not to beat each other over the head about our preferences and our choices.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,188
    "It was a 212-212 tie with the IS350"

    I have the October issue in my hands.... and the BMW outpointed the IS350 by 213-212.

    Page 112, if it matters...

    regards,
    kyfdx
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  • potemkinpotemkin Member Posts: 195
    "Acura, Lexus and Infiniti have been building "BMWs" for, what, five years?"

    Honda, Toyota and Nissan have been trying to build "BMWs" for a lot longer than that.

    "And since the IS350 is the fastest naturaly aspirated V6 sedan out there, this can be easily defeated by BMW or Infiniti ??? Which BMW would this be ?"

    It's not a "V", but it's called the M3.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "AWD: is not class important, just more hype from east-coasters, we in the left coast don't give a hoot about AWD."

    It may not be a priority on the west coast, but for some folks on the east it is. The snowy east coast is a huge market that can't be ignored. And if one looks around at the cars on the road the number of AWD drive cars is huge, not a small miniscule percentage.

    "Ride and Handling: The Bimmer is good in this area, but skimps mightily in other areas."

    I agree with that. However, the reason I like BMWs is for what they *don't* put in a car in terms of luxo-items. I don't need Lexus-branded luxury nor do I want it. I find the cockpit of the 3 series to be very calming and reassuring.

    "But the fact that the 330i HAD a mechanical issue should have automatically been factored into the comparo,"

    The fact it had a mechanical issue has no bearing on the way the car was designed to ride and drive and does ride and drive. IMO this is what they are measuring. Truth-in-disclosure they didn't hide it under the rug. The reader can form any opinion they want on the mechanical issue.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "And since the IS350 is the fastest naturaly aspirated V6"'

    That statement is true for now. However, slightly OT, the BMW 3.2 liter I6 is the engine to beat in the naturally aspirated class. The base M3 which is a few thousand more (at $50K) than the 350 and 330i will obliterate the cars in this segment.
  • bdr127bdr127 Member Posts: 950
    So, if your mind is made up, here is a review of the 3 series to confirm your admiration for the handling. When you get past the handling aspects, consider the other traits/overall quality of the car... enjoy

    http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/content/11244693671382797373/index.php


    Interesting, thought, that they gave the 3-Series "5 out of 5 Star" in Performance, Ride, and Handling. (4 out of 5 in Desirability and 2 out of 5 in Deisgn, both of which are entirely subjective categories.) Sound like they really liked the 3-Series, except for the styling.... Not sure how this backs up your point!
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    As blueguy so humorously pointed out, unless you like to look at your reflection in passing buildings, one lives/drives in the interior. I really think reviewers ought to stick to the task of evaluating a car from a form/function perspective and leave the styling/desireability ratings out of the picture. I don't need someone else to tell me if a car is beautiful or ugly.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    What is subjective about having an electrical relay in the rain gutter of the front windshield?

    Do you know why it's there? Why is there even an issue unless this car was abused or crashed and a part became loose. If not it's under warranty for 4y/50K.

    What is subjective about being charged more for "keyless" ignition that is really keyless?

    You don't have to buy the car, if you don't like the vehicle options.

    What is subjective about the maintenance issues plaguing these expensive cars?

    Yes I agree. For the hundreds of thousands of BMWs out there, there will be some problems. No car is immune, the G35 has certainly had it's share as well. And let's not even talk about the Toyota/Lexus sludge and tranny issues. The BMW also has a B-B 4yr/50K free maintenance program along with the warranty.

    My point, as it has always been, is that these cars should be considered from A to Z (as a total package). If reliability is not apparent, how can "best in class" even be on the radar?

    Who said reliability is not apparent? Because a test car had a malfunction? That's like throwing the baby out with the bath water.

    Wait, don't tell me, it handles well!

    It handles like it's on rails and it's selling like hotcakes.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    I've done some heavy cleaning here. I'm not sure that I've gotten every grimy detail, But I've given it a good shot.

    Let's see if the rest of you can help keep things neat and tidy around here ...

    We'll try again and I hope and trust that those who want this discussion to remain viable will all pitch in.

    Thanks.
  • aaarghaaargh Member Posts: 230
    All the talk on this forum seems to be about BMW, Infiniti, Lexus and Acura. Why is nobody talking about the Mercedes and Cadillac? Are they that far out of this segment (quality, features, cost, etc...)???.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    MB and Caddy are pretty much not players in this segment in my experience. Neither car is very nice, handles very well or installs much confidence in their quality.

    I'd take a Bimmer, Infiniti, Audi, Acura, Lexus before I'd even touch a Caddy at 50% off msrp.
  • laurasdadalaurasdada Member Posts: 4,686
    While I've read that the CTS offers a decent driving experience, the exterior/interior style and quality of interior materials is so off-putting it never occurred to me to seriously shop it against the front-runners here. The entry level MBs have never seemed to be too exciting a driving experience (save for AMG models and they ain't priced entry level anything...) nor a good value. And, yes, there is a poor perception regarding GM and MB quality I've heard rumored... ;)

    '21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)

  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    laurasdada - I disagree about the CTS, I didn't test drive the V model. But the driving experience and amenities were excellent. Loved the interior.
  • laurasdadalaurasdada Member Posts: 4,686
    I haven't driven the CTS, but have checked it out extensively at the Auto Show. I really thought the interior was low rent, typical GM. I was truly surprised, especially given the $40k window sticker. The exterior is a basically handsome shape ruined by extra lines and layers. MHO, of course... And I believe it is selling well so GM may not be too concerned with MHO!

    My Dad loved driving his Catera, when it wasn't in the shop. Which, unfortunately it was... a lot. He traded up to an '04 TL. He's MUCH happier! :)

    '21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)

  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    I found the interior of the CTS to be plush without being annoying or distracting. I'm guessing the car you saw at the auto show and the car I looked at had different interiors. Forgetting about the Catera for a moment, the CTS and also in general the Caddy line-up have decent interiors.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Why is nobody talking about the Mercedes and Cadillac?

    Excellent question! It appears attending forum members are not so keen about the above marques (myself included).

    What surprises me most is the lack of interest in Audi. The Audi A3 is one great performance vehicle(especially the upcoming 3.2FSI Quattro version). I guess to each their own!
  • laurasdadalaurasdada Member Posts: 4,686
    Hmmm. Guess we'll have to agree to disagree here. Actually, Bob Lutz had a great quote about the CTS interior. To paraphrase, he said, "We actually used very expensive materials in the CTS interior. We just made them look cheap!" It was in an issue of AutoWeek this summer. Perception is reality...!

    The STS interior is better, but it does cost a bit more. Compared to their peers, well, Caddy needs to borrow a Lexus designer and materials buyer...

    '21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)

  • frisconickfrisconick Member Posts: 1,275
    I think MBs are great looking cars, but I can't overlook the reliability problems. I thought the MB C230 handled great, but again, if it's in the shop all the time what fun is. :cry:

    I agree, I would take those cars over a Caddy any day too, although the Caddy got some great reviews.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Dead last in this segment. The thing dipped and swayed in corners. It was maddeningly soft...to the point of feeling like it was designed for an entirely different segment.

    The rest of the cars in this group track correctly and without drama in corners. To say I loathed my experience in the CTS would be a gross understatement. Wretched, wretched car. Worst salesperson I've encountered in years. Guy scoffed when I said I wanted to drive a manual. he kept asking how i liked it and when I was honest, placing it far below the competition posed by the G, A4, 3 series he would always offer the same answer, "Ah, but those aren't cadillacs." What does that mean? Should
    I be impressed by a company name?!
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    My bad,

    pardon my last post. With great insight I just determined that a A3 is an inappropriate topic for a sedan forum. :sick:
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Hmmm, inappropriate though it may be, I'm coming out of three consecutive sedans and I'm looking at virtually all of the cars covered by this topic including the A3.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    there's no reason to completely eliminate talk about sedan competitors that are not techincally "sedans" such as the A3. The lines between body styles get blurrier and blurrier. We shouldn't get too caught up in vehicles that aren't strictly our subject, but some side comparisons are fine. :-)
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    Check this out.

    http://www.consumerreports.org/main/content/display_report.jsp?FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=77276- 3&ASSORTMENT%3C%3East_id=389451&bmUID=1126202086364

    Not surprising at all. As I've always maintained, most cars do worse than EPA in the city and better than EPA on the highway.

    Also, real world mileage of BMWs (as with most other manufacturers) aren't anything to call home about.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Well thanks for the clarification about this topic!

    Audi A3 vs. Audi A4 Avant?

    Cant imagine why anybody would buy the more expensive A4, when the A3 is the better performer and handler. In addition A3 interior space is almost equivalent to the A4 Avant ! Another advantage for most North Americans who do not like manual is that the A3 t has DSG---an option that is unavailable in the current A4 .(personally I prefer manual myself).
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