Honda Odyssey vs Dodge/Chrysler minivans

marine2 · January 2006

My 2003 Chrysler T&C minivan had the ENGINE REPLACED at 14k miles! That was the first trip to the dealer, on the third trip to the dealer for a failed wheel slip sensor, the dealer couldn't give me a loaner because he had SIX transmission jobs waiting ahead of me!!!!!!!!Yep,you guessed it ALL Dodge/Chrysler minivans. (6 on the same day, what does that say for reliability?) The friend who talked me into buying the van was driving on the interstate (after I bought mine of course) when his Dodge grand caravan (same engine and drivetrain as T&C)transmission failed at 56k miles. I just traded the T&C with 44k miles in on a 2006 TOYOTA RAV4. Didn't need all that space anyway.

I wouldn't say that didn't happen, it could. there is always that one or two lemons that make there way out. But even with many of the older Dodge/Chrysler minivans, there have been very few complaints of engine replacements. Transmissions and electrical, they have had their problems with them. But the engines have always been pretty reliable.

You stated that at the dealer, there were six tranny jobs in the shop, all Dodge/Chrysler minivans. Being a Chrysler dealer and not knowing how old the minivans were that were in there, that is not too surprising. What would be surprising is if they were all fairly new minivans and were all being replaced and you don't know that.

I know all about Chrysler problems and quality. I doubt anyone on this board has owned more Chrysler Corp. cars than I have, going all the way back to a 1941 Plymouth, 1948 Windsor and 1954 New Yorker. Bought all three used. My first new car was in 1970 when I bought a Duster.

I have owned and driven some great Chrysler cars and some junks.(The first Neon) was junk. But I have had none that seemed to have a better fit and finish than my last two. 2001 Dodge Dakota CC and this 2005 Dodge GC,minivan. Both put together very well and so far both have been trouble free.(I traded the truck for the van.)

I don't put down Asian vehicles. They do make great cars, trucks and vans. But I think many Americans have put a label on American vehicles as junk (for what they were putting out years ago) and it's hard to get that label shed, even though they are putting out some of their best vehicles yet. And doing it under very hard conditions.

One must remember, these Asian companies can come over here and build a new plant and put out a car with less help because many of the American plants are older and not as modern.

These Asian companies can offer more on their vehicles because they can build it not only with less people, but at much less cost than American companies can. Asian companies have younger workers, lower salary, cheaper insurance, they are not saddled with high pension costs or medical for retirees, as American companies are.

When I hear people say they will never buy American vehicles again, I think how short sighted some people are and how badly that could hurt the American economy if many people felt the same way. We are already ahead of Europe in quality and not that far behind the Asians. To write off American vehicles, you are helping to write off the American economy and American jobs.

97xpresso · January 2006

you have to be kidding about the Kia, they don't even honor their "10/100,000" warranty. Read the posts.

dennisctc · January 2006

But I think many Americans have put a label on American vehicles as junk (for what they were putting out years ago) and it's hard to get that label shed, even though they are putting out some of their best vehicles yet. And doing it under very hard conditions.

Great example of "perception vs. reality"....Just look at the GM/Toyota NUMMI plant in CA. This plant builds the Toyota Matrix and Pontiac Vibe using identical components, workers etc....IDENTICAL except for styling and trim. Yet for over a decade, the Toyota version is rated superior over the GM version?

DCX must be doing something right if even VW wants their own american built version of the 2008 DCX van.

It's silly when people say "I'll never buy this such and such" thing again based on experiences going back 10 - 20 years? Or people making comments about the superiority of a feature, when that feature is something very subjective i.e..folding rear seats for example. It'd be like me proclaiming my power rear hatch is easier to use than the power hatch on a Sienna. What are we gonna do, test the force necessary to press the keyfob button?? Time the seconds it takes to open and close it?

marine2 · January 2006

If people would realize if all things were equal, GM,Ford and Chrysler could also build vehicles with some of the things Honda puts on their vehicles. But to build new engines, transmissions and some of the other things Honda has put on their minivans cost millions to design and manufacture. Money American companies don't have, because they are facing expenses that Honda and Toyota don't have. Plus they are facing the perception that what they are putting out is still junk and some people will no longer buy American owned vehicles. So they have to cut prices to the bone to sell them, putting them in an even more disadvantage.

Are the Dodge, Fords and GM vans and cars that bad? No, but they have this perception against them. They don't have the new five speed transmissions or the new engines that will cut out three cylinders or use alternet fuel. They also don't have the money to develop them. So what happens? They keep losing market share and keep closing plants and laying off American workers.

Some will say that doesn't effect me. I don't work in the automotive field. But it does effect us, it effects all Americans. When plants close and Americans are laid off, restaurants close by losing business. Airlines lose business because auto workers no longer have jobs and not flying. Furniture makers are no longer selling to laid off workers, city and state employes will get smaller raises because the governments are no longer getting that tax dollar. Realtors are not selling as many homes, banks are not lending as much money, people are not buying as many washers and dryers. It filters all the way through our economy.

Some will say if they build a foreign plant here, it makes up for the laid off workers here. But does it really? What happens to the billions of profits from those plants? Does it stay here and work it's way into the American economy, or does it go abroad and help the economy over seas?

I have bought Chrysler products my whole life. But now I begin to wonder if I am doing right by buying a Chrysler product. True Americans are building these vehicles and true, there is still about a 23% American ownership in Chrysler. There are 401-K and pension plans in Chrysler that Americans own, but there are millions going to Germany that would help Americans more. My next vehicle may not be a Chrysler product, I don't know. But I sure won't say I will never buy an American vehicle again. I won't say what America puts out is junk. While my Dodge GC hasn't got all the latest innovations that the Honda has. It is a well built, dependable minivan. I am sure Ford and GM are making a good one too.

hansienna · January 2006

We have a 2002 Chrysler T&C LX and a 2006 Toyota Sienna LE and are familiar with both Chrysler and Toyota.
The Sienna LE driver's seat IS more comfortable than the T&C LX seat but every seat in the T&C is much more comfortable for us than the seats in the RAV4. NONE of the seats in the 2006 RAV4 is comfortable for either my wife or myself. The 3rd row seat in the RAV4 is a joke and the 2nd row seats are pathetic.

Reliability? We hope our Toyota Sienna is as reliable and dependable as our Chrysler. Time will tell.

BTW, the Odyssey seats are just as comfortable as the seats in the Sienna LE and Chrysler T&C. And, yes, the driver's seat in my T&C is not quite as comfortable for me as the driver's seat in either the Sienna LE or Odyssey EX.

dennisctc · January 2006

Are the Dodge, Fords and GM vans and cars that bad? No, but they have this perception against them. They don't have the new five speed transmissions or the new engines that will cut out three cylinders or use alternet fuel.

I have to disagree here....If we're talking strictly Minivans, yes! DCX's design cycle is behind for some technology items like Stability Control. They'll catch up and probably surpass the imports in 2008 in some areas. That's competition. It'd be stupid to invest a large sum of money to "catch up" for a single MY when 08s should be focus.

As a corporation though, DCX is every bit up to imports...with cyclinder deactivation (not invented by Honda), 5 or 6 spd autos, stability control, airbags etc...Even alternative fuels. Hybrid vehicles??? The mileage isn't near the promised numbers, and emission are low. A Ford Focus produces same levels of emissions as a Prius, identical mileage but without the price tag! You don't hear Ford touting that though, they're trying to sell their Hybrid and appear eco friendly.

socalawd · January 2006

saying there's not much difference that I can see. I see Honda owners bashing DCX, saying there's still tranny issues, but I see the same thing from Honda and its dealers! My first hand knowledge has always been very positive with DCX minivans, my friends and family's experience with DCX minivans have all been positive. So when someone starts their DCX bashing based on their first hand knowledge (or opinion like Honda's easier to use 3rd row folding seat), it's good to balance the DCX haters.

I don't know the recent failure per vehicle from trannies on Honda or DCX. But you seem too, it someone says they had trany problems then maybe they did. Or maybe there's been a rash of bad trannies for DCX. I usually don't start the negitive only respond to the junk that is pushed here. I don't hate DCX products and may buy some in the future. As for your opinion you never find anything nice to say about Honda, and the more your on this forum the worse your bias gets. I remember not so long ago you said for the same price you'd buy the Honda. The forum problem posts here are your only hope to make yourself feel good. Most people I know who are mechanics look at the forum boards and say most of that isn't what they see in the shop(there are some exception). As for the forum what did you say it's your perception vs reality!!

socalawd · January 2006

Even alternative fuels. Hybrid vehicles??? The mileage isn't near the promised numbers, and emission are low. A Ford Focus produces same levels of emissions as a Prius, identical mileage but without the price tag! You don't hear Ford touting that though, they're trying to sell their Hybrid and appear eco friendly.

Really the Prius got 44MPG(52mpg EPA)overallin the CR test. The Focus(30mpg epa for 2L manual)real world is probably 28. Both scores 9.5 in air pollution scores. But the prius is a bigger car. As usual I'm not sure what Ford intentions are, it nice that someone always has the inside scoop.

dennisctc · January 2006

I don't know the recent failure per vehicle from trannies on Honda or DCX. But you seem too, it someone says they had trany problems then maybe they did.

Let's correct the record here....I'm not the one counting tranny repairs at a DCX dealer, then proclaiming the problems have continued since 1993. That distinction goes to who started this negative DCX bashing thread, NOT ME. I have never made a claim to knowing what the failure per vehicle is, but you keep trying to put that in my mouth.

Or maybe there's been a rash of bad trannies for DCX. Or maybe there's a fleet of 1994 DCX Caravans with 200k miles on them, in need of new trannies...the DCX basher hasn't clarified.

I usually don't start the negitive only respond to the junk that is pushed here.

Same here, when you have DCX bashers making wild accusations, I'll respond!!

As for your opinion you never find anything nice to say about Honda, and the more your on this forum the worse your bias gets.

How about I throw in a token "I like the Nav System in a Honda" for ya? like you do. I won't make any sly negative comments like "Well you will just have to live with your choice it's one I couldn't. And as usual tell me what's wrong with my car and the problem/recalls I've had when I've had none."

I remember not so long ago you said for the same price you'd buy the Honda. SAME PRICE, which they're nowhere near.

The forum problem posts here are your only hope to make yourself feel good. Nah, as I've stated many times, I've got an excellent vehicle at a fair price. I use the problem area when DCX bashers blindly make comments about DCX quality/issues....like I've said "people who live in glass houses....." When people want to bash DCX for engine or tranny issues.....the problem boards are a good DEFENSE against these offenses!!!

As for the forum what did you say it's your perception vs reality!! It's ANYONE perception vs reality.

socalawd · January 2006

....I'm not the one counting tranny repairs at a DCX dealer, then proclaiming the problems have continued since 1993.

Thats not bashing it him stateing what he heard from the dealer.

When people want to bash DCX for engine or tranny issues.....the problem boards are a good DEFENSE against these offenses!!!

There's really not that much traffic there I think CR would be much more qualified. If you used your system DCX wouldn't have sold a van since last Dec. 18th. Of course you don't think that is true.

How about I throw in a token "I like the Nav System in a Honda" for ya? like you do. I won't make any sly negative comments like "Well you will just have to live with your choice it's one I couldn't. And as usual tell me what's wrong with my car and the problem/recalls I've had when I've had none."

Not sly I just didn't want more of the same after my earlier purchase plus I wanted the features that were on the Honda. As for the way the comment was stated, I was going for sarcasm, I thought it might be funny. I guess my humor is wasted on ya. :P At least for once you used my comments, a little out of context but usually you just change what I say and add emotionally charged words. THANKS

dustyk · January 2006

My company currently has approximately 3100 Chrysler mini-vans, 2200 Freestars and Windstars, and about 1900 Ventures ranging to model year 2000. The transmission repair rate on all three makes is roughly the same and the repair cost is also pretty much the same. Under the fleet purchase agreement I cannot disclose specific data, but in the last five or six years Chrysler transmissions have not been the worst.

As to complete engines changes, just like any other manufacturer nowadays on Chryslers that's extremely rare. About the worse for Chryslers were valve guides falling in to the combustion chamber on the earlier 3.0 engines, but that was years ago and since then the 3.0 is out of production.

seabrook99300m · January 2006

Our '97 GC has 125,000 miles on it. The tranny and A/C both died a bit over 120,000 miles of virtually all in-town stop/start driving. Prior to that (8 years / 120K miles) it was VERY reliable.

The same tranny is in my '99 300M. It has 161,000 miles on it, and has never missed a beat. The '93 Eagle Vision I had previously had 162,000 miles on it when I sold it, and it never had a transission problem.

All 3 vehicles had the same model (A604) trannie. All 3 had different Chrysler built V6 engines with zero problems. BTW - the 3.0L engine listed above was a Mitsubishi engine. Chrysler used the Mitsubishi 3.0 prior to their own 3.3, 3.5 and 3.8 family. I had the 3.0 engine in a '91 Dodge Spirit for 100K miles without issue. (It was then totalled in an accident).

Look at Odyssey transmission reliability in the lastest Consumer Report (solid BLACK dot from '99 thru '04). The Sienna is notorious for it's transmission hesitating - which is just great in an intersection. No vehicle is perfect - not even Toyota or Honda.

hansienna · January 2006

Time to get a new heading for each posting.

Seriously, each has advantages and disadvantages. DC Stow'N Go offers great flexibility and the stereo and HVAC controls are more flexible in the lower priced DC minivans. The Odyssey has a neat idea with the "Plus One" seating for people who need 8 passenger seating while still providing nice armrests for 2 people in the 2nd row if the 8th passenger seat is not used.
Would be better if each minivan had all the best features of the competitors...and the discussion would narrow down to spirited performance vs flexibility and availability.

dennisctc · January 2006

Thats not bashing it him stateing what he heard from the dealer.

Of course not - just look at the title of this posting "DON'T BUY A DODGE/CHRYSLER MINIVAN!!!". He wasn't bashing at all!!!!

There's really not that much traffic there I think CR would be much more qualified. If you used your system DCX wouldn't have sold a van since last Dec. 18th. Of course you don't think that is true.

I have repeatedly stated that DCX owners don't need to post many of their deals, because they don't have to run around the country seeking out a "deal" when DCX offers very competitive pricing and features. Look at the Ody pricing area - 11,000 postings!!!!! Same thing with problems....If DXC vans were as bad as you bashers say, and selling at 2 times the Ody rate, the problem area would be over flowing with problems.

At least for once you used my comments, a little out of context but usually you just change what I say and add emotionally charged words.

Hard to take what you say out of context when I copied and pasted EXACTLY what you stated. If you're going for sarcasm, you may want to practice a lot more. Since you think "rustinginvt" wasn't bashing, I'd stay clear of taking pointers from him.

dennisctc · January 2006

Our '97 GC has 125,000 miles on it. The tranny and A/C both died a bit over 120,000 miles of virtually all in-town stop/start driving. Prior to that (8 years / 120K miles) it was VERY reliable.

Obviously ALL lemons

Us DCX owners should just buy a horse and be done with it!! (NOTE THE SARCASM SOCALAWD)

dennisctc · January 2006

Nice selection, tons of pics!!!

Detroit Autoshow Pics

My fav was Lincoln MKX CUV...awesome interior, although wouldn't survive my camping trips, so I'd opt for Chryser Aspen with HEMI

sebring95 · January 2006

Can you give a number on avg. miles before a rebuild for the trannys? When I dealt with a fleet (we have about 4,000 Luminas, Intrepids, Taurus) in the early to mid 90's, we were seeing about 120k miles avg. for transmission life. We lowered our in-service to 120k from 140k because of those and other issues.. Brand didn't seem to matter and engine problems were very rare at those miles.

I will say in the early 90's we fleeted some Camrys and the service life was better, however they didn't discount to fleets. We would have had to keep them to 175k miles to get the same deal even with the much higher resale values. I'm sure GM, Ford, and DC are still very heavily discounting these bread-and-butter cars for the fleets. Employees don't like driving cars with that many miles on them anyway so it wouldn't have paid to keep them that long anyway.

socalawd · January 2006

ave repeatedly stated that DCX owners don't need to post many of their deals, because they don't have to run around the country seeking out a "deal" when DCX offers very competitive pricing and features. Look at the Ody pricing area - 11,000 postings!!!!! Same thing with problems....If DXC vans were as bad as you bashers say, and selling at 2 times the Ody rate, the problem area would be over flowing with problems.

Yes you have said it many times but it seems to me if 11,000 posts for prices paid then they know about this site. As for the Dodge I look for comparitive prices for all my cars before I buy. I'm just not gonna go into a DCX dealer and say what can you do for me. That just dosen't make any sense. I think your misreading what you see. If lots of DCX owners were on here you'd have twice as much in the 2005+ dodge thats just a 1061 posts but Odyssey 2005+ has 4605(So half the sales and 8 times the interest). Ody is consistantly a top 10 research car DCX vans not in the top 100. So useing real life logic more Ody owners are useing the internet to make there purchase! Therefore more Ody owners are posting. It really so easy to understand. :shades: BTW how many people do you know that say they flew somewhere to get the Ody since last summer(6 months) I bet you can't state too many if any at all thats just more propaganda.

socalawd · January 2006

Obviously ALL lemons Us DCX owners should just buy a horse and be done with it!! (NOTE THE SARCASM SOCALAWD)

Yep it has better gas mileage and no smog forming emmissions.(there are some bad gases there) Problem is that you might get your hands dirty and we can't have that. I don't get the sarcasm I think you would be better off!!

thegraduate · January 2006

Wow, DCX has done it again. The Aspen is a carbon copy of the Durango, except the Aspen has headlights like that of Chrysler's minivan.

Why bother with a rebadge if you aren't going to make it worthwhile? At least the Pilot/MDX looks are MUCH different, inside and out.

Back to the minivans, shall we?

kfdmed · January 2006

But the Durango and Aspen are both better looking than the the MDX/Pilot. The MDX is ok but the Pilot is sooooooo generic/plain vanilla looking. Honda has the worst exterior styling designers/engineers.

dennisctc · January 2006

Why bother with a rebadge if you aren't going to make it worthwhile? At least the Pilot/MDX looks are MUCH different, inside and out.

From what I saw, the interior of the Aspen is much more upscale. Aspen Interior. Real wood trim/steering wheel, 2 row heated seats etc.. Its suppose to be much quieter, 2 optional 4 wheel drive systems (not just AWD). It's a true SUV, something that could pull the Airstream I dream of owning someday

Also, in some areas of the country, maybe there's only a Chrysler dealership and up until now couldn't offer a 4WD SUV.

dennisctc · January 2006

Yes you have said it many times but it seems to me if 11,000 posts for prices paid then they know about this site. As for the Dodge I look for comparitive prices for all my cars before I buy. I'm just not gonna go into a DCX dealer and say what can you do for me.

How many more DCX dealers are there than Honda dealers? Isn't DCX the leader in Minivans, having built them for over 20 years and as such are a well known commodity? For years when you said "Minivan" all one thought of was Chrysler.

Ody is consistantly a top 10 research car DCX vans not in the top 100. Again, it's less of a commodity, more of an unknown, and it's easier to stop by a DCX dealer for many people. You've got over 20 years of Minivan experience for DCX vs 7 for Honda?

BTW how many people do you know that say they flew somewhere to get the Ody since last summer(6 months) I bet you can't state too many if any at all thats just more propaganda. As the greatest president once said "There you go again" putting words in my mouth. I have seen sooo many desperate Ody buyers emailing or calling numerous dealerships frantically for a "Deal". I don't believe I stated people were flying around to buy them.

dustyk · January 2006

Well, I'd have to run a report from the system to give you a current number, but I can tell you we don't usually run anything past five years or 85,000 miles because of resale anyways. There are exceptions. For example, right now we're experiencing a high rate of premature paint and rust-through on Ventures, so some of these are being wholesaled early.

Typically on mini-vans we experience transmission rebuilds after the 45-50,000 mile mark. That seems to depend on the make, the geographic area, and sometimes the driver. In recent years the Windstars are usually the first to require a rebuild, while the Chryslers seemed to be the first to require either an adjustment or TCM reflash. GMs have usually been the most problem free initially but just seem to crumble all of a sudden, and when they break they seem to require the most expensive additional repairs (sun gears, input shafts, clutch packs, etc.).

When you buy a thousand vehicles of any make you're going to see some transmission infant mortality. In the early '90s Chrysler mini-vans seemed more prone to this than Ford or GM. But even in those years the Chrysler versions usually required the least amount of money to fix...assuming you had a competent and qualified servicer.

After experiencing a severe failure rate of transmissions in the late seventies and early eighties on GM cars, we adopted a mandatory transmission maintenance program that required fluid and filter changes at 30,000 miles. We've since gone to 25,000 miles on mini-vans. On Chryslers we require the use of the specified ATF (ATF+4). I'm pretty sure that I won't be violating any contract agreement here, but failure rates on GM cars were at one time over 50%. Nowadays across all makes and models it's at or near the national average, about 7%. Our mini-vans have always been higher.

We only have a handful of non-Chrysler, Ford, or GM cars, or mini-vans. All of our light, medium, or heavy trucks are of native manufacture. We have Hondas in the Marysville, Ohio area because we service our equipment there, four Odys to be exact at last count.

Most native Asian car companies do just about everything they can to discourage fleet sales. In fact, I can only think of Nissan and Toyota that have a fleet purchase program. As you've noted, they don't discount and the warranties are usually less. Historically they've been more stringent with certified required service while GM, Ford and Chrysler have not. And they don't ever seem to be in a negotiating mood, either. Because of pricing, no matter how much more reliable they are it generally costs more to go Asian.

Regards,
Dusty

sebring95 · January 2006

Interesting. Thanks for the info. A little off-topic, but I always enjoyed going over to the fleet guys and sifting through data. They hated me because I was always looking for savings plans and they just wanted the status-quo. We had a much different service use than your company, as we were putting 30k-40k miles on them a year. 4 years/120k miles was the average service life. The miles didn't hurt the value all that much. A tranny rebuild was averaging $1200 at the time and wasn't adding a penny to the resale value so adjusting to get out before a rebuild saved tons. Plus we could usually squeeze them out the door with barely legal rubber :P

dustyk · January 2006

Most of our fleet cars and mini-vans are leased. GE being the primary paper holder, and have a two year minimum. Older lease agreements made it more cost effective to bail out when vehicles gathered too many miles - around 50K was the top stop at the end of two years - we had a condition clause that made it better for us to ensure good vehicle condition at the end of term. But things have changed over the years and we are opting to buy more rather than lease.

Out light duty maintenance vehicles (half-ton trucks and vans) and most of our mediums are now owned or on long term lease. Our heavy trucks are leased (Freightliners, Sterlings, older Top Kicks, etc.) and we have a number of private cab owners that pull our trailers. We were a long time GM LD truck fleet until we got fed up with poor reliability and costly repairs. Converted to F150s in '95 for 4x2s and Dodge for 4x4s. Our rotation buy in 2003 and 2004 were RAMs exclusively. Our 2005 buy is F150s, but they have been much worse than the previous generation and we've picked up a couple of new Chevys this year.

Regards,
Dusty

socalawd · January 2006

How many more DCX dealers are there than Honda dealers? Isn't DCX the leader in Minivans, having built them for over 20 years and as such are a well known commodity? For years when you said "Minivan" all one thought of was Chrysler

So how is buying a minivan different from buying a car?? But maybe thats why none posts here they have a local dealer to take care of all there problems.

Again, it's less of a commodity, more of an unknown, and it's easier to stop by a DCX dealer for many people. You've got over 20 years of Minivan experience for DCX vs 7 for Honda?

But then they'd come on the internet?? Not very convincing. I know lots of people are looking for Honda's.

greatest president once said "There you go again" putting words in my mouth. I have seen sooo many desperate Ody buyers emailing or calling numerous dealerships frantically for a "Deal". I don't believe I stated people were flying around to buy them.

No thats your job. It was the easiest car purchase I have ever had 4 emails and a price 200 over invoice. The worst Cerritos Dodge HIGH PRESSURE deal switchers!!!

hayneldan · January 2006

Since the Odyssey folks asked for a separate forum for 2005+ Odyssey problems. Here are some numbers to ponder. Out of the first 65 posts, of 33 different posters 16 reported problems (Mostly minor) 16 out of 33 is 48%. and that is only for 2005+. Please note this IS a problems forum and you would expect problems real or imaginary to be posted.

dennisctc · January 2006

No thats your job. It was the easiest car purchase I have ever had 4 emails and a price 200 over invoice.

Say anything you want but accusing me of saying something requires back up....I don't see anything, hey, maybe you can take something I said previously out of context. You're great of accusing others of doing what you do best yourself.

Your personal experience might have been 4 emails, but there are many who have had the opposite happen, hence 11,000 posting of people trying to buy an Ody.

nwng · January 2006

ummm, maybe they're smart to see what other people are paying so they don't get hosed at the dealership? Isn't that what the prices paid forums are about? I did one email offer to my local dealer and paid invoice on my ody after i saw what others were paying. It worked out great for me and I have edmunds.com to thank for.

OTOH, if I were buying a DC van I would find the prices paid forum pretty much useless since there were virtually no postings for such a high volume vehicle.

sebring95 · January 2006

It's really just supply/demand. DC dealers advertise their vehicles every day for invoice less rebates so everybody knows how much they can get one for. Our local Honda dealer rarely if ever puts an ad that includes an Odyssey and its never priced anywhere near invoice. Of course, if you go in and bargain you can get them for that price but they aren't going to cut their throats in the ads. I suppose if demand ever dries up they might, but I doubt Honda would let that happen. They control inventory very well, which benefits them as well as the dealers. Would you rather make $500 on 100 vehicles or $2,000 on 30?

hansienna · January 2006

Chrysler dealers would be just as greedy with the T&C or GC as Honda dealers are with the Odyssey if they had a shortage. In fact, Chrysler dealers ARE GREEDY when they have a limited supply, high demand vehicle. No reason for Honda to offer discounts on the Odyssey.

Example I saw Tuesday when I had my 02 T&C LX serviced: 2006 Chrysler 300C SRT8 with 6.1L V8 Hemi had MSRP of $ 46,745 with an additional sticker of " $ 10,000 Market Adjustment". Total bottom line $ 56,475 (included $ 2,100 Gas Guzzler Tax since EPA ratings are 14 City 20 Highway).
Chrysler dealers did the same thing with the Plymouth Prowler and Chrysler Prowler and a lesser "Market Adjustment" with the PT Cruiser for the first year or so.

hayneldan · January 2006

Chrysler Group conducted an extensive survey to gauge response to Stow n Go. Participants had the opportunity to compare Stow n Go against every competitor in the market.

Overall, Stow n Go scored six times higher than seating systems in Honda Odyssey and Toyota Sienna. In the category of flexibility, Stow n Go scored eight times higher than Honda Odyssey and four and one-half times higher than Toyota Sienna. And in the category of purchase consideration, Stow n Go scored 50 percent higher than Honda Odyssey and Toyota Sienna.

nwng · January 2006

The $10k is to make up for the thin profit margin they have for their best sellers

And that srt8 price is steep. If I have the urge of hearing a big V8 rumble under my hood and painting black strips on pavements, I would head over to the pontiac store and get myself a 06 gto with 6sp, and fork over the change to my wife so I'll never hear a complain from her about my decision

nwng · January 2006

if that is so, then there should not be any money on the hood to sell these great products? Or the rest of the package is really, really bad?

petras2 · January 2006

we checked out the grand caravan with stow and go and found those seats much less comfortable than the old captain' seats in our 96' caravan...also interior on the 06' sxt had a cheaper feel to it than the 96'..decided to get a base 06' odyssey for about 2k more and so far no regrets...

hansienna · January 2006

Chrysler did NOT contact me on Stow 'N Go. I prefer the 2nd and 3rd row seats of my 2002 T&C LX and feel the interior of the GC SXT looks and feels cheaper than my bottom of the line T&C LX. However, the driver's seat and front passenger seat of 2006 GC SXT is more comfortable.
Agree that the 2nd row Stow'N Go is a nice feature for some people but we also do NOT like the 3rd row seat of Stow 'N Go DC minivans. Our daughter who goes on trips with us feels the 2nd row armrests of Stow 'N Go minivans are too narrow and uncomfortable...and the 3rd row seat is not comfortable.
I test drove a 2005 GC SXT in Feb 2004 before we bought our used 2002 T&C LX. I have test driven many Odysseys and one Sienna. Although the Odd EX interior was nicer looking than the GC SXT, neither the GC SXT or Odyssey EX interior was as attractive to my wife and I as the Sienna LE and neither performed as well. (A 2006 GC SXT would have cost less and a 2006 Odd EX would have cost more than our new 2006 Sienna LE).
The 2006 Odd LX has too few comfort and convenience features for us to consider.

artgpo · January 2006

As you so aptly point out, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. We test drove a Sienna XLE with cloth interior and found the inside very nice but I thought the flaps covering the LATCH attachments in the rear seats to be a bit tacky. We also did not like the choppy ride of the Sienna when compared to the Odyssey. The Sienna, to us, appeared to bob up and down over the slightest bumps in the road. The Odyssey is much different riding, more sporty. It all comes down to personal choice.

macakava · January 2006

For the past 15 yrs of MV ownership, I can count the number of times I have had to remove the second row seats in the less than the number of fingers in one hand.

In my almost 2 yr old Ody, I never removed the second row seats - NADA!

So S & G is at the lowest pecking order of features compared to superior mechanical/driving performance. Now if there are 2 MVs with identical mechanical/driving performance, then S & G may become more attractive for the next 15 YEARS when statistically I may have to remove the second row seats for up to 5 times!

dennisctc · January 2006

My S&G seats have been used about 12 times in the past year. With Camping and Road Trips with friends, it's a must have for me.

My parents keep the 2nd row seats out of their Sienna all the time. They like to be able to just toss bags in from the side and when they need to carry people, being in the 3rd seat gives them plenty of space.

We're seeing more and more flexibility in seating from the OEMs. You may not think you need it, but you'll be glad you do someday when you're shopping and buy something, say at a garage sale, you weren't expecting to be hauling home. S&G is a natural for a do anything vehicle like a Minivan. Bet everyone, that in 5 years, anyone playing in minivan market will have a version and we'll be whining on this board "My minivan's seats are more comfortable and easier to use than your's". Days of hauling seats out of a minivan and trying to find a place to store em are history.

coltswin · January 2006

Geez ... Dont you help family/friends transport stuff or buy furniture/large items? I have stowed both rows in my van a dozen times in a year.

nwng · January 2006

that's for family/friends who owns a truck, plus they don't mind the wear and tear on the bed liner

sebring95 · January 2006

I've never had a need to fold the 2nd row either. I had a 40" TV in there awhile back, no probs with the 2nd row in place. Of course, I have three pickups at my disposal so the van isn't my ideal utility vehicle anyway.

I'd still never discount the sto-n-go. As long as it's equally comfortable, I'd certainly never say I'd WOULDN'T want it. I have no doubt there are people that wanted/needed this feature and DC is selling vans because of it. 8 passenger seating was VERY high on my list though.

hansienna · January 2006

Sometimes one or both sides of the 50/50 fold and fumble 3rd row, sometimes one or both 2nd row seats, sometimes the right side middle bucket and right side rear 50/50 fold and tumble.
These seats are VERY easily removed and replaced and are on wheels that make them easily moved inside or outside of our van.
The 2nd row and 3rd row seats of the 2002 T&C are as comfortable as any minivan 2nd or 3d row seats...and more comfortable than most other brands.

DC minivans have the BEST controls for stereo and heater/vent/air conditioning unless one gets features that we don't have and the controls are compromised as in the previous generation Odysseys with NAV where they are very confusing. :sick:

thegraduate · January 2006

DC minivans have the BEST controls for stereo and heater/vent/air conditioning unless one gets features that we don't have and the controls are compromised as in the previous generation Odysseys with NAV where they are very confusing.

We RARELY needed to adjust more than the temperature number on our Auto Climate control in our Ody. The system knew what we wanted. Heat came out through the floor and cool air through the dashboard vents (could be easily overridden by pushing one button, which we rarely did). For the NAV-equipped 99-04 Odys, adjusting the temparature involved pushing one button, either the UP or DOWN temperature button. Doesen't get more simple than that. It automatically put heat on the floor (so as not to make it stuffy up high, where heat rises), and cool air out the top (so your toes can stay cozy). I'll concede that, if you are someone that doesen't like to utilize the advantages of Auto Climate Control, the NAVI equipped Ody was more complicated than the standard Auto Climate Control.

For example, my aunt who now drives the 2005 I spoke of before. She always has the fan blowing air out the top vents, regardless of temperature. In our van, the temperature was usually set on 68 FULL AUTO. All we ever adjusted was the knob for temperature (occasionally set lower or higher, depending on season.

Do the Chryslers still use only 4-disc changers for CD-players (I know they used to) or have they moved up to 6-disc now?

fred222 · January 2006

The Sienna, to us, appeared to bob up and down over the slightest bumps in the road. The Odyssey is much different riding, more sporty. It all comes down to personal choice.
It is interesting that most people and reviewers say that the Sienna is smoother that the Odyssey. In the Odyssey you probably feel the bump a little more, but as artgpo says the Odyssey does not "bob" as much.

hansienna · January 2006

Don't know as I would prefer the Chrysler system of one CD at a time with Cassette player instead of the 6 -in-dash CD changer with MP3 of the 2006 Sienna LE? I considered only the base 2006 GC SXT that does not have a CD changer.

sebring95 · January 2006

I believe the upper-end DC models do have a 6-disc changer, although I think you have to use that for your NAV and RES DVD's. At least that's the way it looked when I was comparing '05 models last year.

The Ody has 6-disc changer (hidden behind NAV screen if you have the NAV), a seperate DVD player for the RES below the HVAC controls, and another DVD player mounted under the drivers seat for the NAV. You can add a cassette or MP3 player if you don't have the RES. The RES DVD takes up the cassette/mp3 slot. Confused yet?? :P

artgpo · January 2006

I drove an '03 Silhouette for three years. I drove to the Toyota dealer in that van then got into and drove a Sienna. The difference was immediately apparent. The Sienna pitched up and down although the ride was smooth. Both the Olds and Honda vans were stiffer and did not have that pitching motion. My wife is no auto enthusiast but the pitching was the first thing she talked about after we drove off in the Sienna. The Sienna was quieter than the Odyssey. Hondas seem to be noisier than the competition across product lines. Last April we shopped for a new car for my wife. The first thing we drove was the CR-V, a very sweet car. We drove to the nearest Hyundai dealer, about 18 miles away and the Honda was rather noisy at 70 mph+, Both the Tucson and Sportage were much quieter, a deciding factor in her purchase.

Like I said, all a matter of personal preference.

hansienna · January 2006

A large truck is also characterized by having no up and down pitching and a firm ride.

Honda Odyssey vs Dodge/Chrysler minivans

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