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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "70miles commute on highways don't count for squat because both NH and MA are very diligent about ploughing highways"

    You're pretty funny. The fact is that not even the best snow removal team in the world can keep up with 18" of snow in 6 hours (some hours were as much as 6"). That and the fact that we live a fair distance from any major roads meaning that any commute for us requires a fairly long run on a two lane road that winds its way through hill and dale. Even when the Interstate finally does get cleared it's usually several hours before the plows get to our neighborhood.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "Another fact is that hundreds of thousands of old RWD cars have gone off the road or flipped over in snow conditions. "

    I find myself wondering if FWD and AWD cars have fared any better. The fact is that if you put a nut behind the wheel, regardless of the car, the odds are good that said nut is going to find a snow bank sooner or later.

    "I find it perplexing why some other RWD afficienadoes find it necessary to argue against simple physics."

    So who's arguing against simple physics? Not me. The fact is that I've driven nearly a million miles over the years in all sorts of 2WD cars. Through it all, the most capable car that I've ever driven in the snow was my 530i when shod with winter tires. True, some other cars may have been able to do something a little better, but for the overall "go, turn, stop" envelope that encompasses the winter driving regimen, give me a RWD car with a 50-50 weight balance and winter tires.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Distance is nowhere nearly as important as slopes. Just because you can get by without AWD, don't expect everyone else can as well. I lived in MA for over a decade with RWD and All-season tires, sometimes very bald, did that make it right for me to proclaim that snow tires are not necessary? Then a move to the hills demonstrated AWD and snow tires are both necessities for a lot of people in New England.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    find myself wondering if FWD and AWD cars have fared any better. The fact is that if you put a nut behind the wheel, regardless of the car, the odds are good that said nut is going to find a snow bank sooner or later.

    You don't have to wonder about it at all. Given the same degree of nuttiness, RWD goes off the road first, followed by FWD, followed by AWD, followed by half-tracks. You only need to find a point at which you are comfortable somewhere in that spectrum. If your choice is RWD, that's fine, for you. Just don't go around telling people your RWD car is the best traction device in the world.

    So who's arguing against simple physics? Not me.

    Yes you are, every time you argue that RWD is every bit as good as AWD for traction; either that, or you are making non-points.

    The fact is that I've driven nearly a million miles over the years in all sorts of 2WD cars.

    So what? I can give you one simple stretch of quater mile that your RWD 530i can not passibly make it. In fact, RWD, snow tires or no snow tires, is banned from numerous mountain passes across the country. You can drive on flat land in dry ground all you want . . . still does not prove that your RWD is every bit as good as AWD when it gets slippery.

    Through it all, the most capable car that I've ever driven in the snow was my 530i when shod with winter tires.

    Capable as defined by what? You are obviously trying to change the topic. If it is the most capable in the snow that you have ever had, then you have not had any real snow cars.

    True, some other cars may have been able to do something a little better, but for the overall "go, turn, stop" envelope that encompasses the winter driving regimen, give me a RWD car with a 50-50 weight balance and winter tires.

    A 530xi with regular all season tires can probably clean the clock with your 530i in 90% of winter driving conditions where neither AWD nor snow tire is strictly necessary yet your car is stuck with snow tires; for the remaining 10% or 1% going up slippery hills, the difference is so great as to be laughable.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Oh by the way, fresh snow is usually not a problem, even if 18" in 6hrs. Like I said, I drove down from Boston to NYC in a RWD without no DSC or LSD in a snow storm, and on nearly-bald all season tires, while the snow was coming down so fast that a quick lunch break was enough to put enough snow on the bumper to cover up the headlights. The drive was actually pretty simple: just follow the tracks made the by cars in front me. Flat highway, busy traffic actually makes snow driving a piece of cake, even on my bald all season tires.

    It's the overnight packed down re-frozen stuff on back country hilly roads that is dangerous.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    In my opinion driver skill and common sense are the most important aspects of negotiating the winter stuff. A good driver who also plans his time on road will certainly get by splendidly with RWD. That said, there is no comparison between AWD and the rest. None. Is it necessary? Depends on the buyer. For those who are not particularly good drivers, I recommend it highly. My wife is an active person and I feel much better about her traipsing around in the winter with AWD.
  • goodegggoodegg Member Posts: 905
    Move south. We rarely get snow - usually just a 2 day ice storm and everything gets cancelled anyway. We don't need AWD. We need law enforcement on the roads. Atlanta perimeter speed limit is as fast as you can go before you hit the next bottleneck. And the TL feels great @ 95 mph.
  • pgsmithpgsmith Member Posts: 24
    Congratulations on surviving the trip despite your lack of regard for safety.

    Even if you don't feel that your life is worth the cost of a set of tires with tread, most other drivers on the road would appreciate you stay off the road if you don't have good tires because regardless of you opinion, you cannot drive safely without tread. :mad:
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Very true. The need is highly dependent on the driver. Besides skills, I would add, more importantly, the likelihood of having to drive in bad road conditions. ie. how important is it for you to show up on time regardless snow or sleet; no, not talking about going to a holiday party, but the type of job you have.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Point well taken. That trip was made over a decade ago. Looking back, it was pure youthful folly. I would never do such a thing again, nor do I encourage anyone to try. Nowadays I drive with AWD and plenty treads, the mud and snow variety, and encourage everyone to do the same if you live in places that are likely to see unploughed snow sitting overnight turning into packed slick surface.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Wife has family in the northeast, and doesn't want to move. If it were up to me, I would long have moved to CA or HI.
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,373
    Applause...Applause!

    Speaking of winter in New Hampshire Shipo, is it supposed to snow by you This Wednesday night or Thursday? I'm going to my Aunt and Uncle's house in Salem, NH and am trying to decide if I should have the snows bolted on my Prelude or procrastinate and wait a week or 2.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,498
    Here's the thing: When one drives an AWD vehicle, one has to put up with the thing all year long -- nose-heavy, complex (maintenance issues), additional overall weight, reduced steering feel. Oh, and the thing costs more in the first place, relative to the otherwise equivalent RWD.

    With an RWD vehicle, it's necessary to fit appropriate tires for a portion of the year, then use skill, driving experience and common sense the few (or not so few) days that the AWD people insist all others should stay indoors.

    The nimble feel of an RWD vehicle trumps the idiot-resistant AWD vehicle every time, in my world.

    YMMV.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Partially agree about the handling, so I won't rehash Porsches performance oriented AWD. But I am of the mind I can forgo the RWD handling and feel for the safety and security of AWD/4WD.

    I don't believe that AWD require more maintenance. I would be more concerned about my sunroof motor blowing out than having maintenance issues with an AWD system.

    YMMV.
  • mnrep2mnrep2 Member Posts: 200
    Cdnpinhead, your maintenance for AWD is much cheaper than the purchase of dedicated snow tires/wheels, and the associated twice a year change out of the them. Every 30K miles you have one additional transfer case to change fluid out. Not too expensive or time consuming.

    Not to sound like a broken record, but the rwd biased G35x is a blast to drive on the street. Auto crossing or on the track you may actually find the 150lb lighter rwd g35 shaves a couple tenths of a second off of your time. In the midwest, I am more interested in traction and the security of awd, not to mention pulling away from you rwd only drivers at every light on snow covered roads ;);)
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Here's the thing: When one drives an AWD vehicle, one has to put up with the thing all year long -- nose-heavy, complex (maintenance issues), additional overall weight, reduced steering feel. Oh, and the thing costs more in the first place, relative to the otherwise equivalent RWD.

    Much of the same can be said of power sunroof, power windows, power locks, airbags, performance engines, CD player, CD changer, NAV system . . . etc., including back seats. Are you talking about "Luxury," "Performance," and "Sedan," or someone's idealized bare bones race machine? even then, AWD still comes out ahead of RWD, so much so that AWD has been banned in some races for "unfair advantage."

    With an RWD vehicle, it's necessary to fit appropriate tires for a portion of the year, then use skill, driving experience and common sense the few (or not so few) days that the AWD people insist all others should stay indoors.

    First of all, RWD with best snow tires can never compete against AWD with today's all-season tires going up hill on slippery conditions; there is simply no contest. Second of all, RWD on snow tires can not begin to compete against AWD with all season tires on dry ground. On top of it all, AWD has significant dynamic advantage in rain conditions.

    The nimble feel of an RWD vehicle trumps the idiot-resistant AWD vehicle every time, in my world.

    The only advantage (besides the financial one) RWD has over AWD is the "nimble" feel. If I were getting a roadster, that would indeed be my paramount concern. Some people may indeed prefer small displacement engines that takes a lot of revving to squeeze out power because that is more fun and takes more "skill" . . . It's strictly personal preference. Don't apply your set of values to other people who are buying a sedan (by definition a compromise vehicle), and a "luxury performance" one at it.
  • esfesf Member Posts: 1,020
    That's completely untrue about AWD cars... I own an '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet, and I've had it since mid-April. It is not any more nose-heavy than the Acuras I've had before my Audis. It's not very nose-heavy at all, and it does not have maintenance problems. For every BMW that I've played with, I've easily blown by (and that includes many current M3s). It was sort of amusing, there was a man with a 330ci convertible who looked very annoyed, driving out of a parking lot. I was coming out behind him, and he was really pushing it. I let him stay ahead of me for a while, and then with no effort, passed him, without Sport mode. At the light, he stared at me with wide eyes. It happens a lot. And, again for maintenance problems, the only problem I've had is a faulty air conditioner when I bought the car. They gave me a Pontiac Grand Prix, and were so embarrased by the mix of crappy rental and bad A/C that they gave me a free set of 17s for the winter.
  • al57al57 Member Posts: 67
    Fellow posters,thanks for the great response to my original post,seems like we all have our ideas of AWD FWD AND RWD and how we drive and handle our cars in a given situation..The decision of TL VS. G35X is still to tough..

    Now,can we discuss possible large scale changes on G35 for 2007,and has anyone bought a non nav TL and negoiated to get the Michelin tires installed and how much and how do you price out the difference and are 17" tires just bad in the snow..period?? My 2000 Maxima SE with 17" tires is terrible..but changed to yokohama this year but no snow yet to test it out..By the way in Northeast dealers have mostly G35X in inventory,can order a regular G35 but would it be considered a white elephant in this market??

    The final decision may be for me be the actual driving experience and feel,bottom line and possible better financing terms by year end for either car..Is this crazy??
  • mnrep2mnrep2 Member Posts: 200
    Cannot speak much to the 07 G, other than rumors of 330 hp motor. No real info. exsists that I'm aware of. I would thought you had driven these vehicles already. By all means drive them and see which one feels best. They sell both rwd and awd g35 cars in MN, so I don't know why rwd would be a white elephant in the north east.

    If there are remaining 2005 cars, you will get the best price on one of those.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    With an RWD vehicle, it's necessary to fit appropriate tires for a portion of the year, then use skill, driving experience and common sense the few (or not so few) days that the AWD people insist all others should stay indoors.

    The nimble feel of an RWD vehicle trumps the idiot-resistant AWD vehicle every time, in my world


    Completely agree ! I live in Toronto and for seven years I love driving my RWD 99 BMW 3 series twelve months a year!

    I have never ever owned snow tires and still find driving RWD manageable with the exception of about two blizzard days a year! During those days I just walk a short distance to the subway and go to work! Not exactly a great inconvenience!
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    A couple of years ago one of the car mags did a study comparing four similar cars when driving in slippery conditions. IIRC the cars were two E320s, one RWD and one AWD, and two A6s, one FWD and one AWD, and for each car they had three sets of tires, summer, winter and all-season. Not surprisingly the winter tire equipped AWD cars fared the best in all but braking and some of the handling scenarios, however, much of their focus was comparing all-season AWD cars against their 2WD winter tire equipped siblings. Hmmm, seems fairly germane to this latest thread.

    Funny thing though, contrary to some recent protestations, the only category that the all-season AWD cars won was acceleration. The winter tire equipped E320 won every other category, some of them quite handily I might add. The fact is that a winter tire equipped RWD sedan with a near 50-50 weight balance will easily out drive an otherwise identical all-season equipped AWD car. Like it or don't, I'm only the messenger in this case.

    As far as some of the comments regarding how bad a winter tire shod car will drive on dry roads, well, I'm thinking that given the quality of some of the high performance winter tires that have been available for several years now, that that statement is a bit disingenuous. All of the noise to the contrary, winter tires like the "H" rated Michelin Pilot Alpin PA2s will easily outperform the typical OEM all-season tire on dry roads, tires such as the Continental ContiTouringContact or Michelin Energy MXV4 Plus.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • gordonwdgordonwd Member Posts: 337
    I know I'm a bit late into this thread, but let me say this from my own recent personal experience. I had a '98 Audi A4 Quattro, and now have a '04 325i. Both had stock, all-season tires in the standard sizes (15" on A4, 16" on the 325i). I live near Detroit, where we have to deal with snow, but it's rare to have major snow of more than a few inches to get through.

    In similar conditions, the A4 was definitely much better and secure feeling in getting through the snow than the BMW, but so far the BMW has been sufficient and I have not felt the need for snow tires. The A4 was more "fun" in the snow since I could really accelerate and let the Quattro sort out the traction; on the BMW the same action causes the DSC to kick in and I continue forward, but slowly. And I think in a really tough situation, the A4 would be more likely to get me out of it.

    This spring, I intend to get a new wheel & tire package for the 325i, going to 17x8 wheels with 225/45 tires. But even though I'm probably going to stick with all-seasons for various reasons, I still plan on keeping my current 16-inchers around for winter mounting. Narrower tires (within reason) work better in the snow, and when the current tires get some more wear on them I'll replace them with a set of full winter tires.
  • mnrep2mnrep2 Member Posts: 200
    That is an interesting snippet. Is the article available on line? Car magazine articles are opinions just like yours and mine ;) Take a test drive on snow covered roads that you normally have to drive with a rwd sedan and an awd drive sedan. Then decide which car offers you the most security.

    I found that the rwd based G35x offers awesome dry handling with the added bonus of secure all weather traction. YMMV
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    It is (or was) on line because that's how I found it in the first place. I'm thinking I came across the link to the article in either the 3-Series or 5-Series discussion back in 2002 or 2003. I've made a couple of half hearted attempts to find it since I first read it, unfortunately no joy, so if you do find it, please post the link.

    Regarding their opinions, yup, what you said. ;-) Of course they do manage to back up their opinions with some very interesting facts and figures. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know, "Don't confuse me with the facts!" ;-)

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    When I'm driving in 12+ inches of snow, the last thing I care about is acceleration and performance going at 20 mph. The first thing I care about is getting home safely, the second thing is not getting into an accident and the third thing is not getting stuck.

    I'll risk the couple of extra feet of braking from the couple of extra pounds for the tradeoff of not getting stuck. But that's just me.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Ahhh, I see, different thresholds...

    Me? I stop driving when the stuff on the roads gets to about 8" of rutted snow/slush, after that my car becomes a snow plow, and I don't choose to participate in that profession. ;-) If I found myself routinely needing to drive in 12+ inches, I'd opt for an SUV or a Pickup (gun rack and beer cooler strictly optional).

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    I'd opt for an SUV or a Pickup (gun rack and beer cooler strictly optional).

    I'd say if you're out driving on a day where there's 12" of snow on the ground, a gun rack and beer cooler are pretty much mandatory. YMMV.

    When I lived in Montreal, we called those days "vacation days."
  • sdiver68sdiver68 Member Posts: 125
    "As far as some of the comments regarding how bad a winter tire shod car will drive on dry roads, well, I'm thinking that given the quality of some of the high performance winter tires that have been available for several years now, that that statement is a bit disingenuous. All of the noise to the contrary, winter tires like the "H" rated Michelin Pilot Alpin PA2s will easily outperform the typical OEM all-season tire on dry roads, tires such as the Continental ContiTouringContact or Michelin Energy MXV4 Plus."

    cough. :lemon:
  • mnrep2mnrep2 Member Posts: 200
    Which facts are we referring to? I think you would find most enthusiast magazines heartily endorse AWD version LPS in snowy parts of the USA. Again, based on street driving, You can't tell me that the FWD based TL is that much of a better performing vehicle than the AWD based G3x. It just isn't so even though many of you awd haters want it to be so :)
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "You can't tell me that the FWD based TL is that much of a better performing vehicle than the AWD based G3x. It just isn't so even though many of you awd haters want it to be so"

    If I ever implied that I thought the TL would out perform the G35x in any way shape or form, regardless of road conditions, then I'm truly sorry. That was not my intent or my belief.

    As for being a "hater" of AWD, that simply isn't the case. If I am a "hater" of anything it is misinformation. Specific to this discussion I'm very troubled by folks who believe without question that an AWD sedan shod with OEM all season tires will outperform a similar (or all but identical) RWD sedan shod with high quality winter tires. From the research that I've done and the driving in weather that I've experienced, the only area where the RWD car will be lacking is in acceleration in snow (or hill climbing, sort of the same thing), in every other way, the RWD/winter tire car should handily out perform the AWD/all-season car.

    In my case I live on a street with two sections that feature a climb with a grade of over 7.5%, and my driveway is about 9%. Through it all my winter tire equipped 530i never had a single problem navigating either. That being said, there are six houses on my street that sport driveways that the 530i was completely unable to climb in the snow. Why? Easy, they all have at least a 20% grade between the street and the house. Were it that I lived in any of those six houses, you can absolutely bet that my wife and I would not only be driving cars with an AWD drive train, but they would both have a set of winter tires as well. Hmmm, a G35x, A4 Quattro, 330xi or 530xi with winter tires, if you want to plow through the really deep stuff or climb the really steep hills, that's your ticket. ;-)

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • mnrep2mnrep2 Member Posts: 200
    Lets talk about several scenarios where similar cars, one awd and the other rwd, where awd has a decided advantage:
    Left turns on snow covered roads on a busy rush hour day. Better/faster cornering stability of awd vs your rwd on slippery roads. I just don't believe your statement that rwd outperforms awd only in acceleration :D If you are forced to drive in inclement weather as well as nice weather, there is nothing like the security of awd. The icing on the cake of owning a car like the g35x is that it is rwd based unless the car detects that you need traction. Otherwise it drives like it's rwd counterpoint, the G35. ;)
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Yeah I did notice the emoticon, however, since I suspect that any number of folks think I'm a closet AWD hater, I thought I'd just state my position for the record. Just in case. ;-)

    Best Regards,
    Shipo

    Edit: It seems that this response to your first version of the truth is out-dated by your updated post. ;-)
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "Left turns on snow covered roads on a busy rush hour day. Better/faster cornering stability of awd vs your rwd on slippery roads. I just don't believe your statement that rwd outperforms awd only in acceleration"

    I need to split a few hairs here. First off, let's assume like for like cars (i.e. G35 vs. G35x). Secondly, is the AWD car equipped with All-Season tires (AS/AWD) or winter tires (WT/AWD)? Third, is this hypothetical left turn made from a standing stop or are you rolling through the turn with little or no acceleration?

    If we are comparing AS/AWD to WT/RWD then I believe that the following would hold true:

    - From a standing stop (meaning that there is an acceleration component), the time to make the turn and clear the intersection is probably a wash with the edge going to the AS/AWD.
    - Rolling through the turn, WT/RWD should easily complete the turn safer and quicker than the AS/AWD.

    If we are comparing both cars shod with winter tires then I believe the following would hold true:

    - From a standing stop, the WT/AWD should handily beat the WT/RWD through the intersection.
    - Rolling through the turn, the WT/RWD should have a slight edge due to its lighter weight.

    "The icing on the cake of owning a car like the g35x is that it is rwd based unless the car detects that you need traction. Otherwise it drives like it's rwd counterpoint, the G35."

    Errr, except for the extra weight that is. There is another factor that may or may not be present in the two versions of the G35 (but is definitely a factor with the likes of the E60 and E90 BMWs). Some manufacturers, BMW for instance, only offer a true Sport Package (stiffer/lower suspension and better rubber and wheels) on the RWD models. While this situation is not really part of the AWD vs. RWD debate per-se, it is a very real world factor to be dealt with. The standard suspension setup that comes on the AWD BMWs, while still competent, is no match for the ones that come on the RWD SP equipped models. Rain, sleet, ice, snow or dry, the better handling suspension is still the better handling suspension. To my way of thinking, an SP equipped RWD BMW will handle significantly better in the summer months versus the "xi" version, and during the winter months, assuming a high performance set of winter tires are used on the SP equipped "i", it should at least match (if not exceed) the capabilities of the "xi" except in hill climbing and acceleration.

    So, it seems that you've called my bluff and that wasn't my last word after all. ;-)

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    …there are six houses on my street that sport driveways that the 530i was completely unable to climb in the snow… they all have at least a 20% grade between the street and the house.

    I am pretty darn sure that my Outback with AS performance tires will do a 20 degree hill from a stop in snow.
  • mnrep2mnrep2 Member Posts: 200
    Rolling through the turn, the WT/RWD should have a slight edge due to its lighter weight.
    An interesting opinion... What do you base this on? Have you done time trials?

    Errr, except for the extra weight that is
    While there is a 150lb difference between the two, in street driving there will be very little difference in performance between them. On a snowy curvy road your better handling and lighter sport suspension rwd car is going to be left behind by my awd equivalent ;) Having all four wheels pulling and pushing you through the curves is going to be faster, than snow tires on a rwd only car. I think awd has banned from some types of road races because of this inherent advantage. My final words on the subject, I promise :D:D
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    The problem I see with the G35X is that it weighs quite a bit more than the G35, costs $2000 more, and is only available with an auto tranny.

    If you live somewhere that you frequently benefit from the safety and security of AWD, may I recommend the Toyota 4-Runner?

    This terrific vehicle has many of the G35X's attributes you're looking for (similar HP, length, wheelbase, price, amenities), plus the added benefit of 7 passenger seating, 7000 lbs towing capacity, twice the ground clearance, and 2.5 times more luggage capacity!

    It's front bumper will even accomodate a winch just in case you happen to leave the road unexpectedly.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "I am pretty darn sure that my Outback with AS performance tires will do a 20 degree hill from a stop in snow."

    Probably true, however, all six driveways are facing South West and are paved with ashphalt, as such, with the sun shining on them the way it has a tendency to do, they get these nasty icy patches on them. I can only think of one word, scary.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "An interesting opinion... What do you base this on? Have you done time trials?"

    Me personally? No. It was however proven out in the magazine article that I read. I keep thinking that given the emerging popularity of RWD cars along with the continually growing popularity for AWD cars that another magazine is going to perform an updated test. Edmunds, y'all got yer ears on?

    "Having all four wheels pulling and pushing you through the curves is going to be faster, than snow tires on a rwd only car."

    Based upon various things that I've read, I'm thinking that that notion is something of an Urban Legend because it's been repeated so often. The fact is that a tire has a certain limit of adhesion, and that by adding accelerative forces to a wheel that is doing the turning, you reduce that wheels' ability to turn, or the other way around. Thinking back to the late 1980s I read a very interesting article about training road course drivers to push their cars to the very limit. Back then the racing tires were capable of about one "G" of tractive forces (regardless of whether it was linear or lateral), and they had developed a cute accelerometer graphing device that would log the drivers' ability to keep the needle as close to the 1G mark throughout the entire course. While theoretically possible to keep it pegged, even the best drivers were unable to keep it there all of the way around, however, there was a direct correlation between lap times and that magic 1G mark, the closer to the mark, the faster the time.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    The fact is that a tire has a certain limit of adhesion, and that by adding accelerative forces to a wheel that is doing the turning, you reduce that wheels' ability to turn, or the other way around.

    You're referring to the "friction circle."

    Whether a wheel is being driven or not, the tire's contact patch with the road surface and the limit of adhesion determines whether the tire will grip or slip. Period.

    When driving on reduced traction surfaces, the ability to maintain control of your vehicle is primarily based on the inate ability of the tire to grip the surface (contact area, tread pattern, rubber compound, etc.), control input smoothness, and speed.

    Simply put, AWD helps, but it's not as important as having the proper tires and driving slowly and smoothly.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    I have never ever owned snow tires and still find driving RWD manageable with the exception of about two blizzard days a year! During those days I just walk a short distance to the subway and go to work! Not exactly a great inconvenience!

    Perfect illustration of why cars are not necessary at all.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    You are perfectly correct!

    But I have not even begun the first step among the twelve steps of overcoming my addiction to cars.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    The point you are missing is that a reduced-friction surface is usually not an evenly smooth surface; there are patches with more friction than others. Equally as important, when a vehicle is in a turn, the four wheels trace out different circles, hence different linear velocity. The big advantage in an advanced AWD system is the ability to apportion torque to the wheel with the most grip. It's not unlike LSD on RWD cars, except this time with LSD on all four wheels. RWD with RSD beats RWD without it, all else being comparable; similarly, AWD cars win nearly all reduced friction races where they are allowed. The disparity is so great as to make the competition between the two incomtemplable in racing circles.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    The fact is that a winter tire equipped RWD sedan with a near 50-50 weight balance will easily out drive an otherwise identical all-season equipped AWD car.

    Not for going up slippery hills, which is the most dangerous snow driving.

    winter tires like the "H" rated Michelin Pilot Alpin PA2s will easily outperform the typical OEM all-season tire on dry roads

    Ever checked the price difference per mile of expected tire life span? The price difference between RWD and AWD that you cite so much can be burn through on two sets of Michelin Pilot Alpines in three winter seasons. In fact, if you indulge in spirited driving, Pilot Alpine's silica compound last only the first 2/32 inch or so of wear; after that, they are almost as bad as all seaons in snow. BTW, there are many triple-tread All-Season tires that can outperform the Alpines for snow performance, especially after the surface silica compound is gone.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    I'd say if you're out driving on a day where there's 12" of snow on the ground, a gun rack and beer cooler are pretty much mandatory. YMMV.

    When I lived in Montreal, we called those days "vacation days."


    When I lived in central MA, 12"+ snow on the ground was called my drive way, from December till April every year. The town puts up a 2 or 3-foot snow bank at the end of my drive way the entire winter.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    The town puts up a 2 or 3-foot snow bank at the end of my drive way the entire winter.

    I had a name for those too (and the 8'+ drifts in the backyard). Snowfort!
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "The point you are missing is that a reduced-friction surface is usually not an evenly smooth surface; there are patches with more friction than others."

    No, I didn't miss anything. You are talking about accelerative forces here and all along I've maintained that even a lowly All-Season shod AWD car will out accelerate a winter tires shod RWD car.

    "Not for going up slippery hills, which is the most dangerous snow driving."

    Errr, sorry, not buying. The hill has to be both very steep and very slippery before it becomes an issue.

    "The price difference between RWD and AWD that you cite so much can be burn through on two sets of Michelin Pilot Alpines in three winter seasons. In fact, if you indulge in spirited driving, Pilot Alpine's silica compound last only the first 2/32 inch or so of wear; after that, they are almost as bad as all seaons in snow. BTW, there are many triple-tread All-Season tires that can outperform the Alpines for snow performance, especially after the surface silica compound is gone."

    You're making this up as you go aren't you. Obviously you don't have any actual experience with buying and driving on winter tires.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • barry626barry626 Member Posts: 78
    Shipo

    I trust your opinion!

    I have a 330i 2006 with sport package.
    I dropped down in size to 17 inch wheels.
    I have 225/45QR/17 on all 4 wheels. Blizzak WS-50
    Right now there is 29.5 psi in each tire.
    Should I have same pressure in all 4 tires?
    Manual seems to say 29 fronts & 36 rears?
    Just doesn't make sense to me not to have same psi in all tires?
    I can see summer setup because wheels & tires are different sizes.

    Thanks!
  • mnrep2mnrep2 Member Posts: 200
    Not sure if you have anything useful to add to this discussion :lemon: , and I question why I should even bother to respond, but I will :surprise: . Have you ever owned or driven an awd equipped car on slippery hilly roads? Real world experience is probably more useful than magazine articles and juvenile humor. The g35x is .05% heavier than the g35. Just what is this huge problem? I can live with the 1 mpg less than the rwd only model. I don't care that you don't like the automatic transmission. In the real world, I have seen 25 mpg on the highway with the g35x.

    Why bother with the the rest of your post....
  • aaarghaaargh Member Posts: 230
    Not sure if you have anything useful to add to this discussion, and I question why I should even bother to respond...

    Whoa Rambo (mnrep2), slow down. Let's not get personal here. I am enjoying everyone's posts. Just because you disagree with someone doesn't mean you can be disrespectful. It's not needed or wanted here.
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