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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • primetime79primetime79 Member Posts: 18
    I actually test drove the 3301 and the M3. I am truly in love with the M3. personally I think it is the best car in the planet. The 330i was very disappointing. Couple reasons I did not choose the M3 was the fact that a new model was coming out and it did not offer the luxury refinement that would appease my spouse for a car in this price range. Maybe the only reason it felt slow was because I test drove the IS 350 hours before.....
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "Maybe the only reason it felt slow was because I test drove the IS 350 hours before"

    I can understand why it felt slow...it can get to 60 in under 5 secs. :confuse The M3 will run rings around most cars especially the IS350, it is not meant to be a Lexus it is meant to be a BMW, which is why the level of luxury is different by design than on the IS350.

    At any rate, you vote with your dollars and after all your opinion *is* your opinion.
  • lovemyclklovemyclk Member Posts: 351
    "So please no more mountain, curvy, wavy road nonsense."

    And please, no more 0-60 nonsense! Why not a Subie WRX STi or Lancer Evolucion? Gee, they don't have the requisite levels of luxury, but sure are a kick to drive (fast)! Also cheaper to purchase than a 330i or IS350. There are enough options for today's buyer to purchase any narrow profile of vehicle they choose. What ever is best for you is what you park in your garage.

    BMW's are built by people who relish driving fast. BTW, just wondering... what are acceptable performance stats to you? Don't equate price with "levels of luxury", but try "levels of engineering and quality of components".
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    keyless" ignition that requires a key to be inserted

    Where do you get that? It's patently false: I own an e90 with comfort access (keyless ignition) and the fob never leaves my pocket. I walk up to the car, open the door and press START. That's all.
  • lexus_jnlexus_jn Member Posts: 102
    "Where do you get that? It's patently false: I own an e90 with comfort access (keyless ignition) and the fob never leaves my pocket. I walk up to the car, open the door and press START. That's all"

    Is this really true? I test drove 3-series before at 3 different dealers but had never seen or heard something like that. All I rememeber was that you have to insert the key into the slot if you want start up the engine with a push button. Guess the keyless ignition thing you're talking about is optional and does not come as standards.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Comfort Access is not standard.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    "Price is not a "real" factor to "90%" of buyers? I think your percentage is unrealistic. In my opinion, folks with no regard for price are probably looking at DB9's (I would be)."

    I was referring to the nominal relative price difference between a well equiped 330i and IS350. They are both in the same ballpark price wise. But they are quite different cars, with the former emphasizing overall driving dynamics, the latter luxury amenities. If one is already prepared to spend $40k +/-, I don't think most folks would disregard their preferences to save 5% either way.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    "I am merely trying to get everyone else input in terms of the power/acceleration of the car. BMW builds and excellent car, but this is one area IMHO they can historically have always led in but have now fallen afew notches in my books. So please no more mountain, curvy, wavy road nonsense."

    As many others have pointed out, you are overemphasizing the importance of straight line acceleration to overall performance and driving satisfaction, at least among the demographic that has graduated from stop light racing. You can strap rockets to a soap box and get it to 60 faster than a Ferrari.

    BMW's philosophy has always been "make the sespension faster than the car". If you don't buy that "nonsense" then GM and Ford have lots of cars just for you.

    Has BMW "fallen" a couple of notches in power/acceleration? I don't think so. Others have tried to make 0-60 the metric of comparison. BMW makes a 5 passenger M5 that matches my 911S in straight line acceleration and runs circles around anything out of Japan in handling. The M3 that you "absolutely love" will still be a joy to drive for another 20 years, even if it's not the fastest car on the road then, just like a slower Ferrari 328 still is today. Mashing your foot into the floor of an overpowered, under-suspensioned automatic is a short lived thrill. And if your wife heads you in that direction because of her need for the latest in electronic do-dads and amenities, I wish you the good fortune to be able to afford two cars.
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,504
    Many have said it, but you said it best.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • allargonallargon Member Posts: 75
    Comparing a M3 (coupe!!!) to a IS350 (sedan) isn't really an apples to apples comparison. A CTS-V will likely blow away a M3 in a straight line as will most American muscle cars. They also have a lot more room inside vs. the relatively cramped M3. However, this is an entry-level luxury sedan discussion.

    I will bring this back on track and ask is handling everything. Others have brought up reliability. I've brought up interior space. Many Lexus and G35 lovers like to bring up 0-60.

    That's my question for the BMW 3 series sedan as well as others in this discussion. Is handling everything?
  • dhanleydhanley Member Posts: 1,531
    > That's my question for the BMW 3 series sedan as well as others in this discussion. Is handling everything?

    Not at all. Otherwise, we'd be driving elises, or we'd find some way to bring over an ariel atom.

    For me, what's great about the BMW is the overall balance. The handling is superb, yet the ride is not very harsh. Power is good, but the engine is not thrashy and the car still achieves good fuel economy. The car is roomy inside(you may argue this) yet it maintains a efficient outside package. The reliability is good. The interior is quite good. The resale is strong.

    IMO( again, just my opinion ) every other car in the category fails on at least one of these points, typically more, and for that reason, i wouldn't consider that car. The g35 gets bad fuel economy, the engine is thrashy, and it feels just a bit ponderous to me. The TL has nose-heavy FWD handling. The CTS has a pretty bad interior. The a4 is very nose heavy and the back seat is tight. All IMO and not reasons someone else shouldn't consider that car.

    Think of it this way: Michael Jordan wasn't the best in the league at any one of his specific overall skills. But his overall package was tough to beat.

    dave
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    That's my question for the BMW 3 series sedan as well as others in this discussion. Is handling everything?

    Nearly. Roadfeel, feedback, glued-to-the-road feeling, oversteer, balance, composure, ease at 140+ - all of this is part of handling in my eyes. This is where the 3 series stands tall amongst the competition.

    People buy for many reasons. What I wrote above is the exact reason I bought a second BMW.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    What makes these discussions interesting is the different priorities one places on form/feature/function. To some hp is it, to some reliability is it, to some handling is it. Yet to other people some combination of all of them with regard to priorities as to what is important and what is not.

    I wasn't comparing an M3 to anything, I was just noting it was part of the 3 series (to some underpowered 3 series) and BMW has all the hp you want, just in a different dollar strata than Lexus. In addition, there was some commentary on the apparent "slowness" of the M3. Some of the hp issues will most likely be a non-issue with the arrival of the 335. With the G37 arriving the Lexus may be last in the 0-60 and hp category.
  • booyahcramerbooyahcramer Member Posts: 172
    Roadfeel, feedback, glued-to-the-road feeling, oversteer, balance, composure, ease at 140+ - all of this is part of handling in my eyes. This is where the 3 series stands tall amongst the competition.

    In this price range I'd rather have the Mercedes. Still king of the autobahn.
  • proeproe Member Posts: 157
    MB is like Toyota or the other way around, not a driver's car. Too much isolation from the road and no manual. MB used to have very good reliability, and BMW was never reliable and it still is not.
    Also, BMW dealers treat you like a whale, and that is something you do not hear very often :mad:
    If you ask me, I like MB's ride much better than any other cars and its limitation is not easily reached on any public road and in the hands of average drivers.
    But, why buy a MB while I can buy a Lexus with all the saling points of the MB plus what MB is lacking, reliability :P
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "MB used to have very good reliability, and BMW was never reliable and it still is not."

    That is an opinion masquerading as fact.

    "Also, BMW dealers treat you like a whale"

    And Lexus dealers treat you like a shrimp, and Ford dealers treat you like a cow, and Toyota dealers treat you like a....
  • poodog13poodog13 Member Posts: 320
    No matter how good the handling, no matter how great the accelaration, I will never ever buy a 3-series for one reason and one reason alone.

    Far too small of a car for the price tag. I love driving a great car, but if I have to sacrifice being able to live a real-world life to squeeze into something that small, just not worth it.
  • kominskykominsky Member Posts: 850
    "Also, BMW dealers treat you like a whale, and that is something you do not hear very often "

    He's right! I still have the scar from the harpoon! :)

    Seriously, though, not only haven't I heard that often, I've never heard it. What does it mean?
  • goodegggoodegg Member Posts: 905
    Far too small of a car for the price tag

    Amen to that.

    When I test drove a 330, within a minute I was telling myself I could get used to the tight fit. Like trying on a pair of Italian loafers when you know you got a wide foot, and trying to convince yourself it ain't that tight.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    If you need a large car, why are you even here?
  • dhanleydhanley Member Posts: 1,531
    That's one of those things i don't get. A lot of people who complain they need a "big vechicle" are smaller than me.

    It's as if they'd choose rosanne barhr/tom arnold over petra nemcova/johnny depp. Size is what matters,right?

    shrug.
  • proeproe Member Posts: 157
    In Vegas, whale is described as someone who has a lot money to spend. So, in here, I am referring to BMW dealers push you to do the services that you do not really need now as if money is no subject.
  • proeproe Member Posts: 157
    May be.

    From what I have heard, it seems to be the facts more or less.

    Just keep in mind that the reliability is a relative measurement.

    No comparison, no reliability issue whatsoever :P
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    I'm really surprised that you think BMW dealers are the only ones who try to maximize their profit and squeeze unnecessary and unneeded services on you. :confuse

    I know every other car dealer in the world gives their vehicles away for just a handshake and your word.
  • goodegggoodegg Member Posts: 905
    Don't need a large car - just not a small one like the 330. "Entry-Level Luxury Performance Sedans" is this discussion. Not "Small entry-level luxury performance sedans".

    Why are you here then? Most 'sedans' aren't small.
  • dhamiltondhamilton Member Posts: 878
    what sedan here is your size?
  • mikeinmdmikeinmd Member Posts: 23
    Roadfeel, feedback, glued-to-the-road feeling, oversteer, balance, composure, ease at 140+ - all of this is part of handling in my eyes

    When was the last time you were in a car at 140+ mph?
    I hope you don't commute anywhere near me !!!
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    When was the last time you were in a car at 140+ mph?

    He was doing a buck forty in his new 330i just a few weeks ago. Oh the joys of European Delivery (been there, done that, got the Tee-Shirt, can't wait to do it again). I seriously pity those that don't see the value in saving $5,000 off of MSRP and at the same time being able to drive their new BMW in its native environment. ;-)

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "Don't need a large car - just not a small one"

    I kinda have to agree with this. It's just that if the 330 is to small, than so is the TL and so is the G and so is the Lexus...etc. The CTS is the biggest vehicle, but the trade-off is the handling.
  • mikeinmdmikeinmd Member Posts: 23
    He was doing a buck forty in his new 330i just a few weeks ago. Oh the joys of European Delivery (been there, done that, got the Tee-Shirt, can't wait to do it again). I seriously pity those that don't see the value in saving $5,000 off of MSRP and at the same time being able to drive their new BMW in its native environment.

    The downside --- on the Autobahn (the unlimited speed limit areas) when there is an accident the question is not number of injuries but number of bodybags (as I remember for the few years I lived in Bavaria, near Munchen).

    Maybe I am just getting older and don't feel the need to pull those kind of G's...
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    "Don't need a large car - just not a small one like the 330"

    I agree that most 'sedans' aren't small - but this is a "performance sedans" forum, and "performance sedans" are small.

    I averaged the internal seating dimensions of the Infinity G35, Acura TL, Lexus IS, Mercedes C-Class, and Cadillac CTS and compared the results with the BMW 3-series internal seating dimensions:

    Avg: Fr Headrm-38.7"; Fr Shoulder rm-55.7"
    BMW: Fr Headrm-37.4"; Fr Shoulder rm-55.4"

    Avg: Rr Headrm-37.2"; Rr Shoulder rm-54.8"; Rr Leg rm-32.8"
    BMW: Rr Headrm-37.1"; Rr Shoulder rm-55.1"; Rr Leg rm-34.6"

    So how is it that the 3-series is too small yet the other cars in this discussion are OK?
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Ummm, I'm sort of surprised at the misinformation in that post of yours...

    Regarding your "Downside", the AutoBahns in Germany have long been known as the number one safest limited access highways anywhere in the world. Period, full stop, the end. Even the statistics accrued here in the U.S.A. during the "Double Nickel" era were no match for the safety of the Autobahns during the same period.

    As for body bags, I'm afraid your facts are in error here too. Those roadways are constructed in such a way that the vast majority of high speed accidents see all involved simply "walk away" from the wreck.

    As for "Gs", ummm, I hate to tell you, but at 140 you're experiencing the same G forces as if you were sitting in your easy chair watching the PGA tour.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • mikeinmdmikeinmd Member Posts: 23
    A report shows the fatality rate on the western autobahn has been virtually identical to the death rates on U.S. Interstates for over ten years. (source: by German transportation officials, more specifically by a member of the Bundesansalt fur StraBenwesen (BASt)
    ("western" refers to areas of the Autobahn in former West Germany (FRG).

    "Rolf Fischer, a Mercedes test driver who was sentenced in February to 18 months in prison for reckless driving on the autobahn that resulted in the death of a young mother and her child. The ensuing media storm increased awareness of autobahn dangers..."

    As far am I am concerned, the Germans can drive any speed they want. In any case, I don't want to be on a road where you or bluedot are doing 140+....(or any speed while you are figuring out iDrive).

    Back to the topic, any opinions on what is coming in '07?

    P.S. "you are experiencing 1G while standing still on the Earth's surface"
  • jimmy81jimmy81 Member Posts: 170
    The TL has vastly more room in it than the 3. Statistics can be misleading. Banging your left knee into the door in the 3 is not misleading, especially when in the TL you don't (maybe it has to do with the $10000 still left in your wallet choosing the TL over the 3)
  • dhanleydhanley Member Posts: 1,531
    "The TL has vastly more room in it than the 3. Statistics can be misleading."

    So can the claim of an anonymous person on the internet. :)

    dave
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Far too small of a car for the price tag. I love driving a great car, but if I have to sacrifice being able to live a real-world life to squeeze into something that small, just not worth it.

    Wow, I'm of the opinion the e46 and e90 are too large. The e46 was a bit too big for my tastes. The e90 is massive. It's the second biggest problem I have with my e90 - the first being that the car is way too soft even with a sport package. A salesman at my dealership said he loved the e90 because it felt so refined; that's thr exact reason I find the e90 pretty darn boring (compared to what I want from a car, compared to the competition, well it's got zero peers right now).
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    When was the last time you were in a car at 140+ mph?
    I hope you don't commute anywhere near me !!!

    Throughout April I drove my car in Europe. 140 isn't unusual on the autobahn, autostrada, french toll roads, etc.

    BTW, I've cruised at over 130 on my way to Vegas more than once. Short drive when you average over 100 mph. Same goes for the drive from LA to SF/Sac on I-5. Nothing out there.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    especially when in the TL you don't (maybe it has to do with the $10000 still left in your wallet choosing the TL over the 3)

    What's the best price one can get on a TL? 31k? Edmunds says 32k for a TL with manual. Carsdirect offers 31.4k. I'll believe carsdirect. Good price. But remember service isn't included. We'll be nice and add only 1k for service over 4 years/50k miles. 32.4k. Good price. My 06 330i was 3.3k more expensive. Not 10k.

    Personally, 3k is not enough to sway me toward fwd. Especially on a car as large as a TL. To each his own but 10k is stretching credibility...by alot.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "A report shows the fatality rate on the western autobahn has been virtually identical to the death rates on U.S. Interstates for over ten years..."

    Hmmm, a single report huh? Well you have to be very careful with your numbers. True, "roadway" fatalities between the U.S.A. and Germany are nearly identical and have been for some time. I'm currently looking at 2003 statistics and the U.S.A. actually has a very small edge in that we suffer roughly 9.4 fatalities per one billion kilometers driven versus 9.7 in Germany. That having been said, those statistics are for ALL roads in the referenced country. When you limit the statistics to just the "Motorway", the U.S.A. suffers 5.2 fatalities per one billion kilometers while Germany slides in at 3.8, a reduction of 27%.

    Over the years I've read lots of reports from lots of sources and the closest that I've ever heard (from an anti-autobahn group no less) was about 20% fewer fatalities than the U.S. per given distance. So, with all that said, I must seriously question the veracity of the source you are quoting.

    P.S. "you are experiencing 1G while standing still on the Earth's surface"

    No kidding, just exactly like when your tooling along with the cruise control set at 140 or when you're in a 747 busting through the air at over 560 mph.

    Speaking of AutoBahning with the Cruise Control set, a couple of years back, my wife and I were gliding along with the CC set at a buck thirty and the drama was so intense (Not!) that my wife (someone who doesn't like lots of speed) had no idea how fast we were going. When she found out, she yawned and returned to her book. ;-)

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • dhanleydhanley Member Posts: 1,531
    Speaking of AutoBahning, once i was travelling from ABQ to SD. My GF was driving for awhile, i was reading. I glanced at the computer, and noticed our fuel economy had dropped from 29 to 26. Worried, i asked her if the engine felt OK. She told me to look at the speedometer, and i noticed we were doing 120.

    I pointed out i wasn't the one who was going to deal with the CHP in this situation, and i went back to my book.

    Another time, i hit 137 in her saab. She didn't notice either.

    The above shenannigans is less likely to get you killed that gabbing in your cell phone doing 55 on the highway or reaching back to smack your kids.

    dave
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    "Statistics can be misleading. Banging your left knee into the door in the 3 is not misleading."

    The 3-series may not fit YOU, but the measurements are not subject to debate.

    "maybe it has to do with the $10000 still left in your wallet choosing the TL over the 3."

    Why stop there? The Toyota Camry costs $8000 less than the TL. Better yet, for $4000 less than the Camry, I've heard great things about the Hyundai Sonata...
  • ggesqggesq Member Posts: 701
    "Why stop there? The Toyota Camry costs $8000 less than the TL. Better yet, for $4000 less than the Camry, I've heard great things about the Hyundai Sonata..."

    Because those cars are NOT "entry level luxury performance sedans" :P
  • ggesqggesq Member Posts: 701
    "The above shenannigans is less likely to get you killed that gabbing in your cell phone doing 55 on the highway or reaching back to smack your kids. "

    By no means am I saying that I follow the speed limit ALL the time, but seriously, I hope you or your girlfriend is no where near me or my family when you are driving in such a reckless manner! Personally, I would take my chances with a guy on his cell vs. someone driving that fast near me :mad:
  • goodegggoodegg Member Posts: 905
    My 06 330i was 3.3k more expensive. Not 10k.

    Wow - great price. The dealer around here was about $10K more for a comparably equipped 330i vs. the TL. Hell yea I'd take the 330 for mid 35s. Just wasn't gonna happen.

    Maybe the European delivery option will become more feasible down the road, but for now, the TL offers a lot for the money. FWD isn't that big a negative for me.
  • ggesqggesq Member Posts: 701
    In some parts of California consumers are picking up new TL's for around 29k. (check the forums if you wish- more realistic numbers) Add in the cost of flying to Europe to pick up your 330 and those related costs and you are probably over 3k.
    10k might be an misstatement- 5-6k is more reasonable IMO.

    "But remember service isn't included."
    True. But who wants their car in the shop every other month? By the time the 3er gets out of warranty or the 50k free maintenance program, oh boy... :P
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "But who wants their car in the shop every other month?"

    Nobody does, but then again, who wants a tranny failure?
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    In some parts of California consumers are picking up new TL's for around 29k. (check the forums if you wish- more realistic numbers)

    just checked edmunds with my zip in so cal - 32k.

    Add in the cost of flying to Europe to pick up your 330 and those related costs and you are probably over 3k.

    Noooo, that's called a vacation. If I didn't want to take a vacation to europe I could have flown in, picked up the car and flown out the same day for less than $700 from so cal - much less from eastern states. Of course frequent flyer miles can make the whole flight free. :)

    True. But who wants their car in the shop every other month? By the time the 3er gets out of warranty or the 50k free maintenance program, oh boy...

    I'll take in the shop once a month over FWD and a large size any day. My last 3 series spent probably a month total in the shop. I wouldn't have traded that for 5k in savings and a TL. Not a chance. there's that much of a driving difference.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Personally, I would take my chances with a guy on his cell vs. someone driving that fast near me

    The person doing 100+ passes you in a flash. If people in the USA obeyed the worldwide (save for the uk and those jerks in switzerland) view that the left lane is for faster traffic, you wouldn't have to worry. Left lane campers ruin driving and endanger everybody. If people would keep to the right we'd all be safer. Unfortunately, the cell phone people camp out in the left lane, talk with their kids, watch dvds and in general ignore everything going on behind them. And in front of them too!

    Argh...nearing a rant. Regardless, I'm far more afraid of people involved in something other than driving - drinking, eating, talking on the cell phone. Those people scare the blazes out of me.
  • dhanleydhanley Member Posts: 1,531
    >I hope you or your girlfriend is no where near me or my family when you are driving in such a reckless manner!

    I never said anything about driving in a reckless manner.
  • dhanleydhanley Member Posts: 1,531
    "True. But who wants their car in the shop every other month? By the time the 3er gets out of warranty or the 50k free maintenance program, oh boy... :P"

    1) I've had two repair on my 328i at 115K miles.

    2) My overall repair cost is similar to friends who also track their expenses for their domestic/japanese cars. BMW's space the services out, so they individually cost more, but they cost per mile is not going to make the entry-lux buyer go broke.

    dave
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