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Comments
Call me what you will. Say what you will.
Enjoy....
-mike-
Boy oh boy, If I am BMW I wouldn't be able to sleep at night thinking about all these 3 fighters (or so called poseurs by those BMW faithfuls).
Good explanation. Has nothing to do with being open minded. The definition of average is mathmatical, therefore it is not subject to opinion or interpretation. An average is an empirical fact based on data. And I guarantee you that the "average joe" has no realistic intentions of spending $40k on a vehicle. More likely $40k would cover two vehicles.
maybe not opinion, but definitely interpretation.
I'd bet everything I have that the "average" joe in my state has a VERY different income than the "average" joe in Montana.
meanwhile, someone else might be referring to the average person across the entire US. Someone else might be referring to the average person in their town.
Interpretation of empirical data is exactly the reason a manufacturer can make some silly claim like "best in class acceleration." Depending on exactly how you skew that class, you could claim ALOT of crazy things.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
If one died, and the only people care about it are his/her family, relatives and friends then he/she is considered an Average Joe in my book.
If the chassis is now balanced and doesn't exhibit snap oversteer anymore I'll be very interested. I can live with Nissan NVH (lived with it for years)...
I have been a fan of BMW for many years, but I've yet to own one. Your disspointment with the E90 vs. E46 is interesting. Care to elaborate on the differences?
Several years ago, I was handed the keys to a 2001 M5. I thought I'd end up getting one when I could afford it. But, after seeing what i-drive did to the redesigned 5-series and hearing that the new M5 would only come with an SMG, I opted for keeping my TL and getting a 2005 911S Cabriolet last fall. In the 10 months since, I've put 3,200 miles on the TL and 8,600 miles on the 911. A very good decision.
I'm wondering if I will ever own a BMW, or just continue to admire them from afar. I considered the M3 when I was 911 shopping, but decided if I was getting a third car rather than replacing the TL, I wanted a sports car, not a coupe.
The e46 to e90 differences aren't major to most drivers but I fully understand why the e30 and e36 contingents feels as they do.
Things about the 330i e90 I'm not too pleased with compared to my e46 330i ZHP:
1. It's 150 lbs heavier than the 330i e46
2. It's bigger all around.
3. The interior is wider and more spacious
4. The ergonomics - window controls are placed wrong, center stack isn't canted toward the driver, dual HVAC
5. Slower
6. Long throws of the 6 speed
7. Higher ride height
8. Car is taller, thus higher seating position (closer to a G35 now, no longer sports car low seating position)
9. Less efficient engine
10. Muted steering
11. Extremely quiet ride
12. Utter lack of engine noise
13. Muted roadfeel
14. Feeling of isolation from road
15. Run flat tires
I've been looking at 99-2000 911s as a possible replacement for my 330i. Once you defect to Porsche, I'm not sure you can ever go back to something like a BMW.
Yeah you must be right - they lay awake at night worrying. Or are you just worried the G37 still isn't enough car to beat the 335.
However, I am interesting to see how this HP war is going to play out. There is got to have an end for this because if not, 5 years from now we'll be looking at bunch of performance sedans with close to 400 HP :surprise: with sticker price pushing $50K. I really hope Lexus, Infiniti and even Acura to concentrate on improving their handlings in order to compete with BMW instead of trying to make some insane engine. I believe that I am speaking for many people here that I think we are all looking for a well-balanced performance sedan instead of a drag strip muscle car.
Too funny. We've been having a very similar train of thought over on the Luxury Perfomance Sedan disucssion just this afternoon:
markcincinnati, "Luxury Performance Sedans" #7998, 2 Aug 2006 9:46 am
Best Regards,
Shipo
I agree 100% with that thought.
I do think the e90 has been successful in the marketplace because many of the things that bother you (and would me) go right over the head of a lot of non-enthusiast drivers. Some of them are actually preferred - bigger, quieter, heavier.
But I hope BMW doesn't forget that enthusiasts gave BMW much of it's brand equity. If everyone was happy with 4,000 lb A4 Quatros and 300-hp Buick - I mean Lexus - IS350's, there wouldn't be much need for a BMW brand at all.
Some purists even feel Porsche went too far in taking the edge off the beloved 993 model 911 when they introduced the 996. Fortunately the 997, while being a good daily driver, puts back some of that precision and feel.
Good luck in your hunt for a 911. I don't think Porsche and BMW are mutually exclusive in our house, but it would be tough to justify replacing a sedan (TL) that I'm only driving 25% of the time now.
--bigger
--more refined
--perferred the new interior over the old
--quieter (at least until you get up in the rev range where it's every bit as smooth....maybe smoother)
That's not to say I didn't like the e-46. I just liked the e-90 better.
1. Better exterior style (BMW, please sent Bangle packing, pleasessssssss)
2. Driver oriented interior design.
I would definitely consider a 3 as my next car if BMW doesn't use the Bangle design anymore and implementing a more refined interior like the E46's.
I picked an e36 over the e46 because of how much i disliked the e46 exterior. I thought it looked bland, like a bar of soap, and very feminine.
I was sort of "meh" on the e90's appearance for awhile, but i quite like the looks of it now.
I am also pleased with the new refinement and slightly bigger size. The interior is also a step up, i think, except that is is less driver focused.
I'm not at all a fan of the runflats, and i didn't like HP/torue bias of the non-turbo 3.0L. The 3.0T fixes the torque issue in a big way, however.
dave
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
The 3 series is in a whole other class. Of course, it costs considerable more, too. The Mustang was fun.....in a straight line. It handled OK. V8 rumble was a blast, too. But, when you get a chance to drive something like the Mustang for awhile, and then get the chance to make money on it.....I couldn't resist.
http://www.boston.com/cars/news/articles/2006/08/05/type_s_as_in_sinister/
Maybe Acura learned something, but I doubt it.
Infiniti = BMW fighter (superior handling vs. Lexus and Acura, RWD and manual tranny)
Lexus = MB fighter (no manual tranny, focuing more on luxury side and best interior)
Acura = Audi fighter (AWD)
What do ya think?
If you care, look at the sales numbers for the TL- it's keeping Acura on the map.
You must be confused with the Lexus ES series.
Agree with your assesment re: no RWD in Acura or manual available in Lexus but what about all the things that Acura/Lexus offers in its vehicles as opposed to BMW, Mercedes,....
This is an "entry level luxury performance sedan category." These words are not mutually exclusive.
Consider yourself ripped off if you pay 39 large for a TL.
Front headroom (w/ sunroof): 39.1" v. 37.2"
Rear headroom (w/ sunroof): 37.2" v. 36.7"
Front shoulder room: 55.6" v. 54.4"
Rear shoulder room: 55.2" v. 52.7"
Front leg room: 43.9" v. 43.9"
Rear leg room: 34.7" v. 30.6"
Cargo capacity: 14 cubic feet v. 13 cubic feet
Curb weight: 3498 pounds v. 3527 pounds
Yeah, but sometimes it is. Not everyone in the "Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedan Segment" is going to rip around town at consistently unsafe and illegal speeds while tearing through the manual gear box and jamming on the RWD power train. Frankly, I strongly believe that the superior handling of BMW is tough to benefit from in most day-to-day driving conditions. Contrast that with the convenience compromises of an auto transmission, better snow performance of FWD, and a larger vehicle, and the TL makes a lot of sense to someone who wants a nicer car (Entry Level Luxury) that's got some juice to it (Performance) but can actually fit the stuff and people that make up my life (Sedan).
If that hasn't gotten anyone's juices flowing, consider this: If given a BMW 3-series for free, I'd drive it once as hard as I could just for the experience, and then sell it immediately. The car is just too small for my lifestyle.
On-ramps, off-ramps, finding the "long way home", road-trips, etc allow many of us to legally enjoy the benefits of a great handling car.
Contrast that with the convenience compromises of an auto transmission
There is no convenience, IMHO. I travel often for work so i'm stuck driving autos quite often. Never a good thing, in my view. Never. I can be in LA bumper-to-bumper and I'd pick a manual. Gliding, controling the engine, very little braking, etc all make driving a manual more engaging and easier for me. automatics make driving difficult, spotty and dependent on a computer's guess of what you want. No thanks.
better snow performance of FWD
I'll wait for the hardcore RWD people to jump on that one..
and a larger vehicle, and the TL makes a lot of sense to someone who wants a nicer car (Entry Level Luxury) that's got some juice to it (Performance) but can actually fit the stuff and people that make up my life (Sedan).
Funny, mu e90 is too big for my tastes. Yes, I transport people in the backseat. Probably a few times a week. The backseat in the e46, in my eyes, was too commodious. The e90 is ridiculously large all the way around. too wide, too tall, too much interior space. If they'd go back to making BMWs the size of the e30 I'd be a happy, happy boy.
The car is just too small for my lifestyle.
Too big for mine, too small for yours. What exactly are you transporting? My mom had sports cars my whole life. As kids we road in the back of her Z28: trips, swim practice soccer carpools, etc. Even in high school we could fit in that car. Zero trunk space, tiny buckets, etc and we were fine. More importantly mom was happy. Of course now that she doesn't need a "family" car she's got a Miata and a 55 T-bird for her daily drivers. Shrug. I think people believe they need more space than is really necessary for getting by.
Why the BMW? The interior? Now you're into pretty much the same reason(s) that other people prefer the newer 3-series, myself included. I like the bigger size, nicer interior, and smoother lines of the new one. On a similar note, I've driven a new 330i SP and if that's what you call too smooth and refined, I'd hate to drive one of the older ones. :surprise: It was noisy, not plush at all, and stiff as a buckboard. That's fine for my Mustang GT (which isn't noisy at all), but if I'm spending 40 large on a luxury nameplate, there'd better be some luxury in it as well as more size; which is why I'm eyeballing the 550i.
And yah, I think the pricing on both the BMW 325 and Lexus IS should be priced closer to the TSX than more expensive than the TL. But thats just my opinion. I was considering the IS til I got quote for 31.5k and gettting quotes for the TL under 30k(just cause of the new 1000 incentive...normally 30.5k) and TSX at 25.8k
RWD vs. FWD
4 cylinder vs. 6 cylinder
Also, the TSX is really just rebadged Euro-Japanese Honda Accord thus it gives Acura the luxury to price it competetively.
I'll let the BMW enthusiasts to answer your first question...
I tend to agree with Poodog's post. Including driving an auto. For most of my life I drove sticks (learned on a 4 speed Saab 99, if I remember...), VW Scirocco, Mitsu Mirage Turbo, Acura Integra, Nissan Sentra SE-R (very poor man's, me, BMW 2002!) Saab 900-all sticks. But for me, commuting in the Boston area just took all the joy out of a manual (I actually taught the evil wife to drive a stick and bought her the Saab 900 so that I could enjoy it on the weekends, but she too grew tired of rowing her own during her commute and like all women now drives an RX300). I may indeed return to the manny tranny fold, never say never. But for now, to me the TL offered the best balance/value of all the attributes important to me, including FWD. Which, all things being equal (or even not equal?), I have found to be superior in the snow to RWD. 30 years of ski trips to the mountains of New England have proved it over and over to me.
Blueguy? I think he needs to dump the BMW and get a Lotus Elise/Exige. It's smaller and lighter with much less luxury which sounds like his cup o' tea!
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
I'll explain why and try not to disparage the cars you mentioned. Compared to the competition the e90 offered (and realize I was coming from an 330i ZHP) somethings I found superior:
Handling
Roadfeel
Efficiency
Ergonomics
Maintenance
Pricing
Manual tranny
RWD
IRS
The assembled competition: CTS, TL, TSX, GTI, A3, GLI, A4, IS350, G35, C Class, Legacy GT, Mazdaspeed6, 350Z missed the mark on all or most of those points. Of course my e46 trumped them all easily, the e90 did so too, but not nearly as convincingly.
I like the bigger size, nicer interior, and smoother lines of the new one. On a similar note, I've driven a new 330i SP and if that's what you call too smooth and refined, I'd hate to drive one of the older ones. It was noisy, not plush at all, and stiff as a buckboard.
Compared to my ZHP, the e90 ZSP's Buicky.
That's fine for my Mustang GT (which isn't noisy at all), but if I'm spending 40 large
40k? My 06 330i was far less than that.
on a luxury nameplate, there'd better be some luxury in it as well as more size; which is why I'm eyeballing the 550i.
I wouldn't touch the e60. Way too big. I want a small RWD, manual sedan - like an e30 but brought up today's standards.
e90 = BMW 3 series (2006 sedans, the 07 coupes are e92s)
e36 = 3 series (92-98)
e30 = 3 series (82-91)
Actually the 3 series is the best selling entry luxury sedan.
Handling - check
Roadfeel - check
Efficiency - in what way? fuel? check
Ergonomics - personal preference
Maintenance - you're kidding
Pricing - enough already with the jokes!
Manual tranny - check
RWD - check (and AWD)
IRS - check (for all but the Mustang and F-bodies)
Other than your preference of ergonomics, the 3-series has no tangible advantages over any of those cars. That leads back into your preferring an older model of the 3-series for the same reason someone else prefers the current model. Size, comfort, etc. is all enveloped in ergonomics.
And, yes, a new 330i optioned the way I would want it is well over 40 large MSRP. If I recall, when I optioned one out, it was $44K. :surprise: As a rule for me, I don't argue negotiated prices because even if one person can get a car for $1K below invoice doesn't mean the next person can. MSRP is the only true baseline to go on.