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What? How can you say something subjective has no tangible advantages?
Handling - no entry lux car can compare. Case closed.
Roadfeel - the only car that comes close is the G35 and that's still vague.
Efficiency - the TL can pull 30 mpg on a freeway drive. The others simpyl can't.
Ergonomics - only Audi comes close.
Maintenance - BMW is the only one to offer free maintenance so they win automatically there.
Pricing - 35.7k for my 330i with sport, xenons, leather, pdc, comfort access, RWD and 6 speed manual. Only the G35 comes close as it offers a 6 speed, RWD, comfort acces and xenons. CTS and C Class can be had with manual and RWD but they're boring cars on every level and no match for the Infiniti or BMW models. In the world of the IS, A4, Mazdaspeed6, Legacy, they lose because they either lack RWD or a manual.
RWD - that discounts all FWD and AWD cars.
MSRP is the only true baseline to go on.
I view invoice as the baseline - start there and go up. And in the case of BMW I view ED invoice.
Again, it's all subjective. I tried all the competition. The e90 may blow compared to my old e46 ZHP but compared to what's out there the e90 stands above them. Shrug. Tells you how little competition exists in the realm of the RWD, manual, sedan world...CTS, G35 and...yeah that's about it.
Of course there is a sub-category to that called, "The emasculated RWD, manual, sedan world", which would of course include the IS250. ;-)
Best Regards,
Shipo
Doesn't Mercedes still offer a "Sport" version of the C-Class with a stick?
Best Regards,
Shipo
It's clear that the acorn doesn't fall far from the tree.
. . .if I were willing to take the huge flyer that all things electrical on the thing wouldn't pack up at indeterminate times in indeterminate ways.
Wouldn't just order it, would order it ED, to be picked up in Sindelfingen, where I've stayed in the past for the cheap weekend hotel rates. . .little knowing that I was within walking distance of the Merc ED centre. Live & learn.
The C230 is on my list, but the 3 is certainly higher.
The Merc. is quiet, supple and fluid. The clutch engagement is light to the point of having no feeling. Great car for beginners. The 230 is slow but revs smoothly with torque throughout the range. The C is a bit smaller and feels it. It is a nice car that might feel better with the big V6(c350).
Otherwise, I would buy the car for my wife or kid.
The g35 is a 4-door 350Z. With the std. sport pkg. it is fun. It is louder, but not too loud. The clutch engagement is a bit more balky but once learned is good. It is not as refined, but I do not want it too refined. Oh yeah, it goes like stink.
I would have test-driven the 3 series, but alas... no manuals available. According to manager, "people do not drive manuals in Florida." He than said that most 3-series sales are to women, and women prefer autos. Unbelievable.
So there it is. My take, numbers are meaningless. HP, torque, g-forces etc. Feel is everything. I like a more sporty ride and am willing to give up a bit of smoothness. I like the rougher but more powerful Nissan corporate V6.
I dont need cooled seats, thicker windows and dampened clutches and shifters.
My wife loves a smooth, quiet serene ride and adequate acceleration. She values luxury over sport. C230 over G35.
But I purchased the G35. Oh yeah for 30k out of the door.
Beat that Bimmer.
I had an S4 on order ready to go but a family tragedy kind of put it on hold. When the smoke clears, it may come down to the better deal, S4, or 335. I like the seats, the gearbox, and clutch, and the engine so far in the Audi. [ Oh yeah, the interior is better IMO] I gotta say that a 335 without a gas guzzler tax is intriguing. Steering goes to the bimmer. Tail out antics are fun I must admit and much harder to do with the all wheel drive Audi.
M
However, there is an apples to kumquats difference when comparing a Mustang to a BMW 3 Series.
You and I both went through the Mustang GT vs the GTO wars. What we came away with was there was more to the Mustang than just a few 10ths 0-60 times and using a solid rear axle vs IRS. All that said, we know what won out in the end.....Mustang continues to sell well and the GTO is now defunct.
Like you, I like the bigger size and more refinement & luxury of the 3 Series e90. Some call it "blasphemy" though. I also it depends on what some would call "plush". While I really like the e90's near ideal balance of lux and performance, there are those that feel BMW "sold their soul" in bringing it out, however. Fact is,you're right. If someone is spending $35K-$40K for an e90, it better embody lux and refinement elements.
As far as your "stiff ride" experience with the e90, you may have driven one with the Bridgestone run flat tires. I purposely bought mine with Continental tires. The difference in ride/handling is night and day. From most reports, those Bridgestone runflats are garbage. They provide a buckboard ride, are noisier than the Continentals and seem to not be a well suited match to the suspension of the e90.
Interesting info on the Bridgestones (and they felt like bridge stones, too! :P ) I'll have to give the 330i SP a second drive with different tires and see if I come away with a different opinion. Hopefully so because it sure is nice.
Finished the test drive and looked at the tires....sure enough they were different....they were the continentals.
I didn't buy the one I test drove, but told the sales person from the 2nd test drive that in order to make a sale, he'd have to find one for me that had the Continentals. Fortunately, I think the ones produced later in the year came with Continentals since he had more '06 330is with continentals than he did with Bridgestones.
Mine had only 10 miles on it when I bought it so it was probably produced later in the model year.
Wow - that is what I call an intelligent argument.
Lexus has done a great job at providing Luxury that has surpassed the others and now has provided sport in the IS to go with it. I would have not looked at any Lexus until the IS.
BTW (side rant) - look at how many manuals actually are sold and then tell me that it really makes a difference in the marketplace to a car company. I think the car makers just have them for the image. People who post are more passionate, but make a small portion of buyers (inconsequential to a mass builder). As found in edmunds "Somewhere between 75 and 80 percent of the Ferrari F430s that come to America have the "F1-inspired" electronically triggered and hydraulically actuated transmission installed. Every Mercedes SLR McLaren comes with a five-speed automatic. Where the high end goes, the rest of the industry eventually follows. And the way this is going, the clutch pedal is doomed"
I love it when a poster says the BMW is too big and should be lighter, only include a manual, and have no special electronics. BMW is not making cars for you! They are making it for the professional that likes the image and wants a bigger, safer car with bells and whistles.
So you know where I am coming from I sold an A4 for an IS. I loved the Audi and the Lexus is exceeding my expectations. The Lexus is more luxurious, and feels more sporty at times. The Audi was a great execution of simplicity and just did what it needed to do well. Preference - I don't have one yet, but the Lexus is exceeding the hype for me.
For those that think of Lexus as just a Toyota (or Infiniti is just a Nissan) - stop being a snob. Is a Lamborghini just a VW/Audi? Cars should be (many other examples) judged on their own merits.
End of Rant.
Man I couldn't say it better. I always thought Lexus was for old people and it has no character and totally lacks styles...until the IS came along. I was so impressed I made it the first car I bought by myself. So far I am very satisfy with it and it definitely does NOT suck.
Also, I totally agree with you on the manual tranny. Lexus estimated they'll sale 70% IS250 and 30% IS350 (so far they're right on target) and about 25% of the 3 series sold were manual. By using those numbers, if Lexus puts manual on the 350 that'll consist about 7.5% of the total IS sale numbers. To Lexus that number is really not that significant and they might figure it's better not to produce manual 350 in order to cut production cost.
However, I do believe that if Lexus really want to be a serious player in the performance sedan field they'll have to put manual tranny on their cars in order to shut those people up. Even of it's only availabe through special order.
I suppose that's one way of putting it, however, as the IS350 doesn't have a manual gearbox, it won't even make my "long list". The reality for many of us is that we want a 4-Door RWD car with a manual transmission, good handling, good power and a back seat that isn't a joke for adults to ride in (the back seat in the IS is such a joke that my kids couldn't even fit). The "G" meets those criteria, so too do both the 3-Series and the 5-Series. Geez, even Cadillac has one (CTS, not my cup-o-tea looks wise) as does stodgy old Mercedes-Benz (C350 Sport). Why can't Lexus do it?
Best Regards,
Shipo
One needs to realize that Lexus currently has two entry level sedans in IS and ES unlike the other brands. Since they know the ES will sell well no matter what as long as they put enough goodies in there. Thus, they have the luxury to experiment with the IS. One thing that puzzles me, I wonder what's Lexus' intended demography for the IS?
Yes and no, mostly no. The ES 350 starts at 33K msrp. The IS 250 starts at 31K MSRP. So for almost the same price you get one car with a 3.5 liter engine and one car with a 2.5 liter engine. The IS350 is significantly more expensive. They are not the same cars (furthering the thought the ES 350 is a rebadged CAMRY). Most car manufacturers have some overlap with the price in their product lines as well.
In reality the ES350 is a top of the line CAMRY, while the IS250 is a bottom of the line IS.
Not really.
Top of the line ES350: $44,774.00
Top of the line IS350: $41,139.00
IS350 has a higher MSRP than the ES but once you added all the goodies (most ES's do) the ES is priced higher than the IS350.
From this we can see Lexus' strategy to have 2 entry level sedans in their lineup. ES will attract buyers whom have families and are looking for a comfortable and luxurious ride (there are a lot of them out there, in fact, more than the so called enthusiasts). IS is aiming for...I don't know, semi-enthusiasts (or so called poseur by some of you)?
M
You're playing the option game. The IS350 is $5K more msrp, starting at $36K, than the 250. From what you post it is obvious that Lexus let's you option out the ES350 more heavily than the IS350.
ES350 - $11K in options.
IS350 - $5K in options.
The IS350 is $3K more expensive then ES350 according to Lexus website.
So that even furthers my contention the ES350 is a top of the line CAMRY. It is true Lexus does have 3 models of cars and two platforms within $5K base price of one another, but there is no mistaking the rear seat of an IS with the rear seat of an ES. It's like saying the MiniCooper and 325 are two entry level sedans within BMWs lineup.
That's about the difference between the ES and IS.
According to the Lexus website, a TOP OF THE LINE ES is more expensive than the IS. All what I was trying to say is Lexus has 2 entry level sedans aiming at different market demographic. THAT'S IT. Why you think Lexus let you option out the ES more heavily? Because they are aiming at the customers whom are looking for more luxury.
At least the ES and IS belong to the same segment (entry lux), the MINI and your beloved 3er are not (not even close).
3er: entry lux
MINI: subcompact?
but there is no mistaking the rear seat of an IS with the rear seat of an ES
Didn't you read my previous post?
I agree that the IS is not for you, but I would argue that Lexus and many other manufactures are willing to give up those sales. Lexus can do it - they choose not to. It makes their cars better for some and worst for others. Clearly the IS is not for people who carry 4 people often. It is for people that prefer coupes, but want/need the benefit of a sedan. I rarely have anyone in the back seat (one every few months), but it is nice to have it as extra storage. The rear doors help with utilizing the space for many reasons. Think of it as a roomier execution of the RX-8 concept. If one needs a full family car - then Lexus offers the ES and GS.
I have had multiple people in my back seat as everyone wants a ride in the new car so the backseat is just fine for lunch trips, etc. I think people make too big a deal about the size unless they need a full size sedan. A lot of single or married (no/small kids) professionals that do not need a roomey back seat.
Why would Lexus make the 350 have a manual? Retool and add the extra cost for maybe 5% more sales. Does that make economic sense? Time will tell if Lexus has judged the market correctly. If they have solid (does not have to be industry best) sales then they have targeted correctly. Early results are positive. Keep in mind, car makers are in business to sell cars - not satisfy a minority of posters. That is why the IS250 automatic will be the best seller in the lineup. I believe as stated in a previous post (reinforced by Edmunds article) that manuals are a dying breed. I had several through the years and have no desire to use a clutch ever again.
The great thing is that there are a lot of good choices. If manual and a large engine is your thing then you can have a great car. Lexus will not mourn loosing you. I also believe (don't have the statistics) that automatics have a better resale since they are more desirable. Same as having leather.
Enjoy whatever car you choose.
Why retool? Well, under the old adage of "Cover your competition", Lexus is the ONLY maker of small Lux/Sport sedans that doesn't offer a manual gearbox with their larger engine.
As far as Automatics having better resale than Manuals, well, I suppose that depends upon the car. My 2002 530i 5-Speed, PP & SP was resold (after lease end) for a higher price and quicker than any of the comparable 530i Automatics on my BMW dealer's lot. Think about this, I paid ~$43,000 in 2002 and my dealer sold it for $36,000 (had it listed at $36,999) in 2005, just two weeks after I turned it in.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Did you even read what I wrote? So I had a typo the rest of my post stands as is. Lexus is not the only manufacturer different models of car within a few thousand of one another.
"but there is no mistaking the rear seat of an IS with the rear seat of an ES"
Have you sat in the back of both?
Dude, you wrote this...not me.
Of course there is no comparison between IS and ES's rear seat. IS's way smaller. It is really pointless to keep going back and forth on the backseat issue. It works for me and doesn't work for you. Tough. At the end Lexus still got my business and many more and that's the most important thing.
That's still a manual though. There'a giant difference between an SMG system and an automatic. The shift speeds in the F1 tranny can be measured in microseconds. in the IS350 a triple downshift takes multiple seconds.
BMW is not making cars for you! They are making it for the professional that likes the image and wants a bigger, safer car with bells and whistles.
Bigger and safer? Size has nothing to do with safety.
But it also exceeds the 3er on many OTHER levels. So what are we arguing here? There is no best car out there, the car you bought is the best car FOR YOU.
That's the only thing you got out of that sentence?
WOW!
Ditto my 2003 manual 330i ZHP. The dealer was so excited to get their hands on that car and they flipped it right after some mild reconditioning (cleaning up the scuffed rims). Used 3 series with manuals don't last long dealer lots.
Dude..you said they were competing models. How can they be competing if the back seat in one is not usable and the drivetrains are totally different.
The TSX and TL are then competing models.
Looking at this issue from another perspective, I know that I (and a number of other folks) were looking forward to the GenII IS with great anticipation. Why? Because we were thinking that we were finally going to be offered a car that was a viable alternative to the 3-Series. As an overall package, the IS doesn't measure up to the pre-release marketing hype from Lexus management. Oh the disappointment.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Entry-Level: IS is below $40K. CHECK
Luxury: Made by Lexus. CHECK
Performance: 300+ HP, sporty ride (fine, sportier than Buick, but still sporty), RWD. CHECK
Sedan: 4-door. CHECK (Does the definition of sedan involve backseat size? Last time I checked...NO)
Because we were thinking that we were finally going to be offered a car that was a viable alternative to the 3-Series
Exactly, the IS is an alternative to the 3er. Not a 3er clone with different sheetmetal and Lexus badge. Lexus offers more luxury on the IS and an awesome engine. That's all it needs to convince me that the IS is the right car for me. Did I buy a joke? I really don't think so. No stick, just fine for a so-called poseur like me I guess. The very important thing here is Lexus didn't disappoint the general public, they merely disappointed the so-called enthusiast like you. Like I posted before, general public: 92%, enthusiast: 8%. By that I think Lexus made a right business decision.
Lost me there. UNCHECK. Why? Can't properly use the power that the engine generates.
Sedan: 4-door. CHECK (Does the definition of sedan involve backseat size? Last time I checked...NO)
Actually, apparently the rear seat size does determine whether a car is a sedan. There was a thread here a year or two back where some folks who were quite versed in automotive history quite convincingly claimed that there were many 2-Door cars that could be called Sedans and many 4-Door cars that could be called Coupes or 2+2s. Which is the proper usage in our language? I'll leave that argument to folks more studied than I. That having been said, I didn't claim that the IS wasn't a sedan. What I said was that it cannot effectively be used as a sedan. Different language, and more accurate. When my (then) eight year old and eleven year old couldn't fit in the back seat, I quickly determined that the IS is a Sedan in name only. So, UNCHECK here too.
Did I say you bought a "joke"? Nope, for your needs/wants/desires, the IS apparently fills the bill. What I said was that calling the IS an "Entry-Level Luxury Performance Sedans" is considered something of a joke. Once again, different language.
As for the IS being an alternative. Nope, sorry. An alternative needs to be able to perform the same functions, and the IS falls short. Given your criteria a 2-Door car would be a viable alternative for your needs, but I wouldn't consider any 2-Door cars a true alternative to a true sedan.
Best Regards,
Shipo
No, 3er doesn't compare with Camry, Camry is in the "midsize sedan" segment.
Wow, says whom? You? Good god if you are such an expert why don't you get a job with C&D, R&T or become the chief engineer of BMW in that case.
In case you haven't got your license yet, let me teach ya: in order to properly use the power that IS350's engine generates is to depress the gas padel. Once the car is moving forward or backward you are using the power of the engine.
rear seat size does determine whether a car is a sedan
Says whom? You again? Case closed.
From dictionary.com
sedan: A closed automobile having two or four doors and a front and rear seat.
Sounds to me that the IS fits the description.
What I said was that calling the IS an "Entry-Level Luxury Performance Sedans" is considered something of a joke
Exactly, says by you again...Do I need to go on here?
An alternative needs to be able to perform the same functions
From dictionary.com:
alternative:
1. The choice between two mutually exclusive possibilities.
2. A situation presenting such a choice.
3. Either of these possibilities.
So that was your definition again. What a surprise.
- I never said that the IS wasn't a sedan.
- I stated that there are some automotive historians that dispute the modern usage of the terms Coupe and Sedan.
- I said that the IS "cannot effectively be used as a sedan". Different language, different meaning, and far more accurate.
Regarding the IS being something of a joke in the "Entry-Level Luxury Performance Sedans", hey, don't shoot the messenger. I didn't coin the term, even if I happen to agree with it.
Regarding my usage of alternative, your snippet from dictionary.com supports my usage. Item 2 says "A situation presenting such a choice". That assumes that both options will each meet the minimum criteria. Item 3 says "Either of these possibilities". See the assumption from item 2.
As the IS cannot be used as a true sedan, it is NOT an alternative to a 3-Series Sedan any more than a Mazda Miata is an alternative.
"In case you haven't got your license yet, let me teach ya: in order to properly use the power that IS350's engine generates is to depress the gas padel."
Pretty funny. In many countries in Europe, that mentality will only qualify a driver a "Restricted" license. I however qualify for a full unrestricted license as I am very well versed in telling a car how and when I want the power transmitted to the wheels. ;-)
Like it or don't, the IS as it is currently offered to the driving public is only a half baked 3-Series competitor.
Best Regards,
Shipo
So it is a sedan then...case closed. It probably cannot be effectively used as a sedan for YOUR purpose but for MY purpose it is a perfect fit. Again, it's the your preference vs. mine.
So if you didn't call IS a joke in the "Entry-Level Luxury Performance Sedans", who did? Sources please. Don't tell me it's blueguysdotcom, if so that is just lame because we all know that his opinion weighs about as much as mine.
As for the alternative, it merely means providing the general public with more options, that's it. If you don't like it get another alternative. Looks to me that your "minimum criteria" for "Entry-Level Luxury Performance Sedans" is a bit off from the general public's. Not that it's wrong, it's just...off.
As the definition of a true sedan...please enlighten me what is it (I want REAL definition, not YOURS). Funny that we went from the definition of sedan to "true" sedan. It's kind of hard to shoot at a moving target ya know.
We are living in America so the Euro discussion is irrelevant. However, last time I checked you are freed to move to other countries (sounds like a slogan...AirTran?).
Like it or not, the IS is in the same market segment as the 3er and is doing quite well.
Questions:
1) Is the Lexus IS large enough to be USED as a sedan on a regular basis?
2) Does a small sedan qualify for the "Performance" moniker if it only offers a manual transmission on its most anemic engine?
3) Based upon the pre-release Lexus marketing hype along with the pre-release rhetoric from Lexus management about the IS being a true 3-Series competitor, "Has the IS lived up to its pre-release billing or is it something of a joke?"
Best Regards,
Shipo
1) No, it's too small.
2) Nope. For a car in this class it needs to at least offer an optional manual.
3) It falls well short of the mark. Joke.
Best Regards,
Shipo
1) Yes. My IS is not a people hauler so it's truly large enough. On the other hand, if one haul people on regular basis, why buy an entry level lux sedan? :confuse:
2) Yes. Don't see any direction relationship between "performance" and "manual tranny"
3) Funny, it all depends on whose expectation. My answer is...If one is expecting a 3er clone, then yes it's joke, I guess you've got punk'd by Lexus. However, if one is looking for an alternative in the "Entry-level Luxury Performance Sedan" market segment then the IS is one of the best options out there.
So, apparently you weren't the messanger, it's you whom call it a joke. Why can't you just admit it the first time? Also, this segment is called "Entry-level Luxury Performance Sedan" not "Let's all play 3er". Give Lexus some credit for being itself for crying out loud.