Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

louiswei · August 2006

3 series will retain the title unless and until Porsche decides to make 4 door Cayman, I suspect.

Yeah I know.

How can one beat the 3 series with its "must have" factor...

blueguydotcom · August 2006

And that anemic 330i just beat the new G35 in a MT Comparo, Oct issue. Looks like the 335i will continue its leadership with ease if the 330i can beat its most feared Asian competior.

As i haven't driven the 07 G35 I can't comment. considering my 06 330i is better than an 06 g35 - but not by a great deal - I find it near impossible to believe the 07 isn't a bigger step forward for Nissan. Can't wait to get my hands on one.

habitat1 · August 2006

"As i haven't driven the 07 G35 I can't comment. considering my 06 330i is better than an 06 g35 - but not by a great deal - I find it near impossible to believe the 07 isn't a bigger step forward for Nissan."

I think you may be underrating the E90 because of your preference for the former E46. I'm out of that market, but from what my frinds and associates tell me, the 3 series still has better driving dynamics than anything in its class, the sins of the E90 notwithstanding.

graphicguy · August 2006

My guess is that 4-door Cayman (if it's built) will cost substantially more than the 3 series once you put some options to match the 3 series, too.

The '07 G35 may be interesting, but I'd have to see the redesign in person before passing judgement. Also, would have to have some seat time in it.

mariner7 · August 2006

My guess is that 4-door Cayman (if it's built) will cost substantially more than the 3 series once you put some options to match the 3 series, too.

Without a doubt, any Porsche would be more expensive than a comparable Bimmer, just because it's more exclusive and people are willing to pay even more for a Porsche.

There's a fair chance there's eventually a Cayman sedan, after Porsche has a chance to work the kinks out of Panamerica, their 5 series competitor, which doubtlessly will be the most expensive in its class.

graphicguy · August 2006

Interesting point mariner....I think Porsche may very well be diluting their brand, though. The Cayenne was the answer to a question nobody asked. Sales of that model have proven that. Wondering if the same would be true of any other 4-door Porsche?

Regardless of brand, the value proposition has to be there for anyone to buy. If any Porsche, regardless of model, has nothing that the buyer wants, what's the point? I like Porsche's. I like the 911 and the Boxter. Past that, there doesn't seem to be anything else that would get me in their showroom.

habitat1 · August 2006

Don't hold your breath on a 4 door Cayman to compete with the 3 series. It's based upon the Boxster platform and the likelihood of either of those cars having 4 doors is about the same as me beating Tiger in the Master's next year.

"The Cayenne was the answer to a question nobody asked. Sales of that model have proven that."

Actually sales of the Cayenne have been quite good. I don't see one of them in our future as I prefer to get my "S" from a real sports car and need more "U" in an SUV. But somebody must be buying them.

On the topic of entry level luxury sedans, I saw a pristine BMW 2002 tii the other day. It had been awhile and I was amazed at how small the car looked. I know blueguydotcom likes the smaller size and more intimite feel of previous 3 series. But going back 35 years, it looks like "entry-level" also meant "entry assistance required".

blueguydotcom · August 2006

I wish Mazda would build that Kabura RWD small car. Nobody builds small rwd sedans - which is what I long to own with 2006 tech.

louiswei · August 2006

blueguy, you might be in luck. Rumor has that BMW might introduces the 1-series to the US market!! The 130 looks like a sweet ride to me.

blueguydotcom · August 2006

The 1 series hatch is big: cramped interior but big dimensions. I've messed about with them in Europe. They're really long, really awkward. If the spy pics of the 2 series coupe are on target, that could be a dream come true.

Also, I see a lot of 1 series cars up from Mexico.

louiswei · August 2006

blueguy, since you have seen the 1 series in person, is it bigger than E46? Just curious. Aren't they suppose to be smaller and slotted lower than 3er? :confuse:

blueguydotcom · August 2006

The 130:

Length: 166 inches
Width 69 inches
Height 56 in
Weight: 3200 lbs

The e46 330i:
Len: 176
Wid: 68
Height: 55 (ZHP was even lower)
Weight: 3285

Wider, taller and nearly as heavy as an e46, the 130 wasn't the tiny, lithe car I want.

shipo · August 2006

I'm thinkin' that I'd like to see something along the lines of a RWD Mini Cooper. Y tu?

Best Regards,
Shipo

blueguydotcom · August 2006

Oh yeah. Yummy.

nyccarguy · August 2006

Especially now that the new Minis will be Turbocharged as opposed to Supercharged...very yummy. Id love to see a RWD Mini.

jrock65 · August 2006

C&D review of the G35 6MT.

0-60: 5.2s
1/4 mile: 13.9s at 103 mph

The Highs

"it hunkered down and dashed to 60 mph in 5.2s, covering the 1/4 mile at 13.9s at 103 mph. ... More impressive still, our G35 tester went to the track with fewer than 250 miles on the odo. That's like putting an Olympic sprinter in the starting blocks in his street clothes. What'll it do with a proper break-in? We look forward to finding out."

"The power feeds through a six-speed manual that's the personification of precise engagement--it makes the 3 series manual seem rubbery..."

"This honey can dance as fast as you can pedal, without a misstep and without punishing its partner in the ride department. ... It's a setup that delivers Bimmer-esque compliance, and if the 3-series still holds an edge in this area, the distinctions have become paper thin."

"Upgraded materials, a superb new Bose audio option, an attractive and highly legible new instrument package, nicely placed switches with an exceptionally positive operational feel, and a sporty steering wheel with hand-stitched leather all lend an upscale feel that wasn't really part of the first-generation G35."

The Lows

The grip of 0.87 g is "not impressive by the standards of this class."

"The brake pedal felt a little long and a tad squishy"

"We're not unanimously seduced by the aluminum interior trim--to some, at least, the optional straight-grain rosewood veneer might be preferable--and the front buckets aren't quite in the BMW league in lateral support."

Counterpoint

"Robin Warner: ... this new car is stunning. ... BMW's superbly balanced 3-series is still the benchmark dynamically, but the new G35 is much nicer to look at."

Mike Dushane: "The interior is still comprised of too many ill-fitting plastic pieces. On the highway, there's a lot of noise, and small pavement imprefections unsettle the ride."

"Mark Gillies: "The G35 also brings up another comparison, to wit: Why on earth would one buy a Lexus IS350? The Lexus isn't appreciably quicker, doesn't look as good, and is a fairly anodyne driving experience, whereas the G35 is a very soulful machine. The IS has a more beautifully wrought interior than the G35's (much improved) cabin, but that's about its only advantage."

pearl · August 2006

and the winner was the BMW. The G was faster, 0-60 in 5.4 vs. 6.2, but MT said that the 3 series was just "a better car", especially driving dynamics. Since this was not even the new 335, it doesn't look like anyone is going to dethrone BMW in the ELPS for awhile, but it will be interesting to see what CD and R/T have to say.

louiswei · August 2006

but it will be interesting to see what CD and R/T have to say.

Pretty much the same thing.

"just a better car"
"must have factor"

can't beat that...

lovemyclk · August 2006

The 335i Sedan should all but negate the straight line performance edge the more powerful G35 has enjoyed. Don't get me wrong, I find the Infiniti to be a superb effort to bring an entry-level sport sedan to today's buyers... not all of whom desire the investment in a BMW. Unlike the IS350, someone my size can actually fit inside the Infiniti without cursing every moment behind the wheel or while as a passenger in the back seat.

You get what you pay for either way, IMO. Although I find the total package of the BMW to reflect the generations of constant improvement on the class benchmark, Infiniti should be proud to release a car that is more than worthy of consideration for your sport sedan dollar.

I wonder if the next G35 Coupe will also improve on its predecessor?

crusherg · August 2006

Question:

If I did not like the way the Accord drove over bump and small potholes and it was too hard for me will the Acura be the same?

louiswei · August 2006

If the Accord is too hard for you then the TL will only be harder. You probably want to check out the new ES350.

meateater · August 2006

If the Accord is too hard for you then the TL will only be harder. You probably want to check out the new ES350.

What are you, Mr. Answer Man for all models of cars? I see you own the Lexus, not the TL. I drive the TL every day, and had an Accord before that. The ride between the 2 is about the same. The TL has a better road presence tho cuz of the wider,low profile tires. I would describe neither as 'hard'. When I drive my brother's G35 I don't see a big difference in how his car rides vs. mine. And my sister's 325 isn't much different either. I don't get this 'hard' business....maybe a Lexus rides 'soft'.

louiswei · August 2006

Nope, don't have answers for all models but I did drive TL, TSX, and Accord before so I am just trying to answer his question. He was asking if TL will feel HARDER than Accord, NOT if TL will have a BETTER ROAD PRESENCE. Usually a harder ride gives you better road presence so I stand corrected based on YOUR POST. I am not an expert in this driving dynamics business but if you think Accord/TL drives as hard as a 3er then I think we should just stop the discussion here and agree to disagree. As matter of fact, Lexus does ride soft comparing to other makers (especially the boatish ES350). Even their most sporty ride, IS, is considered soft by many enthusiasts so go figure.

mariner7 · September 2006

Nobody but BMW owners will complain about the G35's handling. Front-end grip borders on the remarkable, while body control and balance are superb.

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FullTests/articleId=116681

kdshapiro · September 2006

Both Infiniti and BMW has raised the bar and left Lexus in third. (I should add only in the performance aspect, obviously Lexus rules when it comes to reliability)

In the latest issue of C&D they timed the 335i to 60 in 4.9. Don't know if the figure was adjusted based on their proprietary algorithm. Here's a blurb from Automobile magazine.

See here.

designman · September 2006

Bummer: there are complaints about the G35 Sport's four-wheel active steer (FWAS) system which includes a variable steering ratio. It also includes active toe in the rear wheels. Similarly there were many complaints with BMWs first active steering. Porsches have a variable steering ratio too but there were no laments as it wasnt so severe. Here are the ratios:

G35S 12.0:1 to 18.5:1. - 6.5 degree difference
BMW 530i 10.0:1 to 18.0:1 - 8 degree difference
Porsche 911 13.7:1 to 17.1:1 - 3.4 degree difference

Note: BMWs now-stand-alone active steering was tweaked for the 2006 330i. The steering ratio shown above was on the 2004 530i with sport package.

mariner7 · September 2006

Got to hand it to the Bimmer guys. They keep taking the best shots from the contenders, and knock them all back, up and down the lineup. Obviously Infiniti comes much closer than Lexus. I think MB and Audi also come closer.

jrock65 · September 2006

The official specs and packages are out.

306 hp, 268 lb/ft torque

Curb Weights (EPA mpg)
G35: 3497 (19/26)
G35 Journey: 3508 (19/26)
G35 Sport: 3538 (19/26)
G35 Sport 6MT: 3532 (19/27)
G35x: 3704 (19/25)

Premium Package
Tinted glass power sunroof with rear tilt feature, sliding sunshade, and one-touch operation; Studio on Wheels by Bose® premium audio system with Burr Brown® Digital Audio Converters; drivers seat, steering wheel and outside mirror memory system; seat and outside mirror position synchronization (outside mirrors automatically adjust as seat is moved); drivers seat power adjustable lumbar support (2-way); power tilt and telescoping steering wheel; one touch up/down rear window function; automatic anti-glare rearview mirror with HomeLink® Universal Transceiver; Bluetooth® hands-free phone system; heated front seats and front outside mirrors (standard on G35x AWD)

Navigation Package
Infiniti Navigation System (hard disc drive-based) with Infiniti controller and 7.0-inch color touch screen, Lane guidance (part of route guidance) and building footprints (enhanced graphics), 9.5GB music hard drive (replaces in-dash 6-disc CD changer) and compact flash slot for playing MP3 files, real-time traffic information, voice recognition functions for HVAC, audio and navigation, XM satellite radio (requires Premium Package)

Technology Package
Intelligent Cruise Control; Adaptive Front lighting System (AFS); Rearview Monitor; Brake Assist with Preview Braking (requires Navigation Package)

Wood Trim
Genuine African Rosewood trim on center console, instrument panel and doors (requires Graphite or Wheat interior and Premium Package)

Performance Tire & Wheel Package
225/50R18 front and 245/50R18 rear W-rated tires and 18-inch lightweight cast aluminum wheels (requires Premium Package or Sunroof)

Four Wheel Active Steer Package
Front and Rear Active Steer Systems

Satellite Radio
Sirius® or XM (requires Premium Package)

The 2007 G35 Sport (6MT and auto) has standard power thigh and torso bolster adjustments.

lexus_jn · September 2006

"Both Infiniti and BMW has raised the bar and left Lexus in third. (I should add only in the performance aspect, obviously Lexus rules when it comes to reliability)"

I think the right word is "quality" :-)

Seems like BMW has learned something. The new 335i has a different style taillights as compared to the 06's 3-series.

kdshapiro · September 2006

Quality is different than reliability. I meant reliability

All cars in this category are quality cars. You get to pick the version of the quality that suits you the best.

jzalkin · September 2006

G35: 3497 (19/26)

The poor gas mileage alone would keep me from the G35. Lexus and BMW are smart to have smaller engines that get 30+ mpg.

I know a lot of shoppers are looking more and more at the EPA MPG figures as a major factor in picking one model over another.

kdshapiro · September 2006

The 4.9 secs to 60 that C&D recorded was amazing for this car, but I had assumed the car tested had a manual transmission. In fact, it had an automatic. I don't see how they could get a much faster number even with a manual.

One of the mags (maybe R&T) said it lacked low end grunt. Who cares?

nyccarguy · September 2006

Nissan credit. They're offering a 6-speed manual transmission with a sport suspension & a limited slip differential. Very impressive indeed. Of course I'd have to drive one to make more informed comments.

jrock65 · September 2006

"Judging from some of the previous G35 posts, my guess would be in heavy stop and go traffic 19 would be an optimistic figure."

The EPA city estimates are optimistic for all cars in heavy stop and go traffic.

Check out CR's mpg data. EVERY car, including all Lexus and BMWs, got significantly worse city mileage than the EPA figures. And it was just "normal" city driving.

jrock65 · September 2006

"G35: 3497 (19/26)

The poor gas mileage alone would keep me from the G35. Lexus and BMW are smart to have smaller engines that get 30+ mpg.

I know a lot of shoppers are looking more and more at the EPA MPG figures as a major factor in picking one model over another."

So, the G35 (22.5 mpg) gets 2 less mpg than the 335i (24.5 mpg) and the IS350 (24.5 mpg). At 12,000 miles per year, the G35 requires more 43 gallons, or $130 more per year. Big deal, considering that a G35 will be $4000 cheaper than a IS350 and $8000 cheaper the 335i, all similarly equipped.

Heck, take that $4000/$8000 and put it in a money market account, which guarantees about 5% per year these days. That gets you $200/$400 per year, which more than pays for the $130 extra gas for the G35.

That said, I do think that Infiniti would be smart to bring the G25 with the new 2.5 VQ HR engine here. It'll be offered in Japan, so shouldn't be that big a hassle.

blueguydotcom · September 2006

The poor gas mileage alone would keep me from the G35. Lexus and BMW are smart to have smaller engines that get 30+ mpg.

Lexus uses a 3.5 liter, just like Infiniti. Comparing apples to apples as some here say. someone shopping an IS250 and satisfied with its power wouldn't even bat an eye at the G35.

BMW's 3.0 gets 30 mpg. But again that engine is leagues beyond the IS250.

blueguydotcom · September 2006

Agreed about the G25. Or at the least, put the old 3.0 VQ from the late 90s with 225 HP in the car. That was a great engine. Infiniti could drop it in and lower the starting price 3k. I'd bet that the G30 would sell like hotcakes and increase Infiniti's sales a good 20k units a year.

Plus that was a great engine!

kdshapiro · September 2006

A friends G35 got 15/16 in the same type of traffic I commuted in. My BMW had about the same deviation, few mpg less.

kdshapiro · September 2006

That's what I would do if the G35 was the car I wanted.

But if one leases, the BMW could be on par to the G35 in terms of payments. Mileage might swing the sale.

louiswei · September 2006

Right now I am driving all city with my IS350 and I am getting 20 mpg. Oh and by the way, I am by no means a light footer.

I believe the EPA figure for IS350 is 19/28.

louiswei · September 2006

BMW's 3.0 gets 30 mpg. But again that engine is leagues beyond the IS250.

I believe you were referring to the current 325i's 3.0 right? If that's the case I really don't know how it is "leagues" beyond the 4GR-FSE.

325i - 3.0 I6 with 215 HP.
IS250 - 2.5 V6 with 204 HP which features direct injection.

I think the only area that the 3.0 is beyond the 4GR-FSE is its bigger displacement. However, if you were referring to 330i's 3.0 then that's a whole different story.

shipo · September 2006

"I think the only area that the 3.0 is beyond the 4GR-FSE is its bigger displacement. However, if you were referring to 330i's 3.0 then that's a whole different story."

It's an odds on bet that he was referring to the 3.0. My 328i and my 530i along with blueguydotcom's 330i ZHP were all able to easily return > 30 MPG. Historically speaking German cars have been tuned to return good mileage at very high speeds and as such they don't do well on the hokey EPA tests as the top speed there is well below the sweet spot for fuel economy on these cars.

Said another way, even though my 530i was just broken in (i.e. 1,300 miles), it was still returning about 24 mpg with the cruise control set at 125 miles per hour. Not too shabby. ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

jrock65 · September 2006

A VQ 3.0 HR engine would be nice. They could probably tune it for about 260 hp. But it doesn't exist, at least not yet. They only have a 2.5 HR and a 3.5 HR engine so far.

jrock65 · September 2006

All I'm saying is that a gas spending difference of $130 per year shouldn't be that big a concern. At least, it's not to me.

Anyways, I do agree that BMW has good lease deals. But, if you find a lease deal on a 335i that's the same as a similarly equipped G35, let me know. Because I'll be all over that.

jzalkin · September 2006

I am comparing the G35 to the smaller engine IS and 3 series. The difference will be more than $130 a year. The IS 250 gets 24/32. If every day driving is G35 is about 19mpg and the IS is about 26 mpg than there is real savings to be had. People care more about the gas prices than they used to and a lot do not want/need the fastest engine in these cars.

BMW/Lexus has an option to get the style, luxury, etc and the higher gas mileage. Infiniti does not. I eliminated the old G35 on that basis and chose between the Lexus IS 250 and BMW 325. BMW dealership did not have a car equiped as I wanted and Lexus did and gave me a good deal. I wanted atleast 30mpg on the hwy since I drive a lot.

Infinit will do well, but the lack of engine options will hamper it after the newness is over.

blueguydotcom · September 2006

In the realm of engines that get 20-30 or 24-32, I'd expect to compare the low ends the same way.

07 G35 - (15k miles /19 mpg) x 3.30 = 2605
06 IS250 - (15 k miles / 24 mpg) X 3.30 = 2062
06 330i - (15 k miles / 20 mpg) X 3.30 = 2475

So yeah the IS250 gets great gas mileage but it's a really lousy car, imho. It's easily worth $400-600 to me per year to not drive an IS250.

jzalkin · September 2006

I did not say that you cared about the difference, but many people do. The difference in real world driving will most often be bigger. I would expect a real world mpg difference of 6-7mpg. Since Lexus sells more IS250s than 350s (Audi sells more 2.0t vs 6cyl, etc) it leads me to the conclusion that most people do not care about overall speed.

PS - How is the IS a "really lousy car"? Speed on par with the smaller engines of other brands Audi, MB, BMW, etc. You may not like the car, but calling it lousy looses you credibility. I chose the Lexus over the BMW, but I can see how people like the BMW. There is really no lousy car in this segment; just choices with different attributes. For example, what car matches the "lousy" interior of the Lexus?

dhamilton · September 2006

"What car matches the lousy interior of the Lexus?

Audi.....

Next question

jzalkin · September 2006

"What car matches the lousy interior of the Lexus?

Audi..... "

Considering my current car is the IS and my last car was an A4 - I would be in a better position to comment. Both are great designs. The Audi is simpler and the Lexus is more luxurious.

My last car interior:
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y52/jzalkin/Cars/IMG_4461.jpg

"Next question"
Sure - Why can't you admit that Lexus has a good product and a viable option?

jrock65 · September 2006

As I indicated in my post, a G25 or G30 will be welcomed here. I've been advocating that for the past few years.

Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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