Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!
Most popular vehicles
Popular New Cars
- New Acura MDX
- New Acura RDX
- New Audi Q5
- New BMW 3 Series
- New BMW X3
- New Buick Enclave
- New Cadillac Escalade
- New Chevrolet Equinox
- New Chrysler 300
- New Dodge Challenger
- New Ford Edge
- New Ford Escape
- New Ford Expedition
- New Ford Explorer
- New Ford F-150
- New Ford Focus
- New Ford Mustang
- New Honda Accord
- New Honda Civic
- New Honda CR-V
- New Honda Fit
- New Honda Odyssey
- New Honda Pilot
- New Hyundai Elantra
- New Hyundai Santa Fe
- New Hyundai Sonata
- New Hyundai Tucson
- New Jeep Compass
- New Jeep Grand Cherokee
- New Jeep Wrangler
- New Mazda 3
- New Mazda 6
- New Mazda CX-5
- New Nissan Altima
- New Nissan Maxima
- New Nissan Rogue
- New Porsche Cayenne
- New Ram 1500
- New Subaru Crosstrek
- New Subaru Forester
- New Subaru Impreza
- New Subaru Outback
- New Tesla Model S
- New Tesla Model X
- New Toyota 4Runner
- New Toyota Camry
- New Toyota Corolla
- New Toyota Highlander
- New Toyota Prius
- New Toyota RAV4
- New Toyota Sienna
- New Toyota Tacoma
- New Volkswagen Jetta
- New Volvo XC60
- New Volvo XC90
Popular Used Sedans
- Used BMW 5 Series
- Used Chevrolet Impala
- Used Chevrolet Malibu
- Used Chrysler 200
- Used Dodge Charger
- Used Ford Fusion
- Used Ford Taurus
- Used Honda Accord
- Used Honda Civic
- Used Hyundai Elantra
- Used Hyundai Sonata
- Used Tesla Model S
- Used Toyota Camry
- Used Toyota Corolla
- Used Volkswagen Jetta
Popular Used SUVs
- Used Acura MDX
- Used Acura RDX
- Used Ford Edge
- Used Ford Explorer
- Used Honda CR-V
- Used Honda Pilot
- Used Hyundai Santa Fe
- Used Jeep Compass
- Used Lincoln Navigator
- Used Mazda CX-5
- Used Nissan Rogue
- Used Subaru Crosstrek
- Used Subaru Forester
- Used Tesla Model X
- Used Volvo XC90
Popular Used Pickup Trucks
Popular Used Hatchbacks
Popular Used Minivans
Popular Used Coupes
Popular Used Wagons
Comments
No I didn't. The fraction of a second can make a difference when merging. I also do not believe shifting takes away from concentration. As I drove a manual for 12 years, shifting diverts as much attention away from driving as steering.
"Not the ideal car for New England. Lets pick Boston for example. Snow and congestion; and BMW needs 2 turbos to get 300hp?"
And a Vette is practical in Boston, or any other RWD that uses the LS-1? The LS-1 is a gas guzzler, it's about time BMW came around with lightweight turbos. Turbos make much more sense than huge engines. The car is lighter and uses less material since the engine is smaller. Lighter is always better.
me: Not the ideal car for New England. Lets pick Boston for example. Snow and congestion; and BMW needs 2 turbos to get 300hp?
Did you read up on how and why BMW designed the engine with two turbos? The car's got 300 ft-lbs of torque at 1400 rpm. That's a flat torque curve up through 5k rpm. They're using small, low boost turbos to give the car insane torque (something BMWs need desperately) without a lag penalty. As KD pointed out this helps packaging too. While Infiniti and Lexus are using large 3.5 L engines, BMW is going the other direction - smaller engine, gobs of power.
I amust admit I adored VW's 1.8T and find the VW 2.0T to be a fantastic engine - far beyond the VQ, BMW inline 6 and Lexus 3.5. My girl is trying to talk me into holding onto my 330i until 2008 and then getting a 335i, while VW's 2.0T/DSG equipped GTI is calling my name right now.
me: I agree. All I'm saying is that you don't have to have a manual to gain a fraction of a second in acceleration. The other option is to modify the engine or buy a model that is capable of that acceleration-rate even with an automatic.
kd: As I drove a manual for 12 years, shifting diverts as much attention away from driving as steering.
me: Yes I've just traded in a 5-spd. Jag. X-Type. A manual does divert your attention, requiring you to take a hand off the wheel to move the shifter. This has been recognized as an issue by most manaufacturers and many racing teams as "not being optimum". I just watched the Italian GP this morning, and saw quite a few buttons on the cars' steering wheels. I didn't see the drivers taking their (both) hands off the wheel much.
kd: And a Vette is practical in Boston, or any other RWD that uses the LS-1?
me: I'm not here promoting a Vette or RWD. I'm simply stating that there are engine-auto-trans. packages out there that would meet or exceed the stated need of a BMW 3-series acceleration with manual, while still having the convenience of an auto. By the way I've driven several GM products - 6 cyl. and an LS-1 (for 5 years) and I've been very impressed with the mpg. My LS-1 gets 25mpg combined, 28mpg freeway.
Wrong board, wrong conversation for a majority of the folks here. The folks (at least some of them) here thrive on a crisp shifting, crisp handling unmodified entry level lux sedan sedan. Not a one trick high horsepower gas guzzler like the Vette.
"A manual does divert your attention, requiring you to take a hand off the wheel to move the shifter"
We have to agree to disagree here. Shifting is part and parcel of driving. Taking your hand off the wheel to shift does not impair safety, as much as looking in your rear view mirror to take your eyes off the road in the front. And please don't compare driving to NASCAR or Formula 1 racing.
"I'm simply stating that there are engine-auto-trans. packages out there that would meet or exceed the stated need of a BMW 3-series acceleration with manual, while still having the convenience of an auto. By the way I've driven several GM products - 6 cyl. and an LS-1 (for 5 years) and I've been very impressed with the mpg. My LS-1 gets 25mpg combined, 28mpg freeway."
That's your stated need, not my stated need or any one elses stated need. As far as your LS-1 getting that mileage, you must run it in the summer downhill with the wind at your tail. People I know who have the car in this neck of the woods get 12-15 mpg in city type of driving. Maybe 18 on the highway.
me: Years ago I had my eye on the Dodge Stealth. I believ in 1994 they were getting 320hp and good torque from a 3L twin-turbo. I'm not trying to bust on BMW, but is this some sort of tech. progress I should be impressed with? I believe the near Nissan GT-R with twin-turbo (of their VQ??) is going to be 450-500hp.
Go for the VW though; they sound like really decent vehicles especially for the money. My only concern would be to really investigate these models/engines with regard to quality. I just happen to hear a lot of quality issues on VW. The 1 person I know who has a VW almost had a lemon-law case; but that was a diesel.
Exactly. :-)
I just wish normal, healthy adults wouldn't make it sound like a manual transmission is a physical challenge.
Be careful of your assumptions. It does happen to be a physical challenge for some (perhaps many), and it is for me in long periods of heavy stop and go traffic. Gender, height and weight are not relevant.
Hopefully, BMW won't read your quotes and reverse their decision.
I agree with you that they shouldn't reverse their decision. And if I've given the impression that I am in favor of the increasing planned obsolescence of manual trannys, then I have misrepresented my beliefs. I am very bothered by the fact that people are shying away from manuals to the point where people who really want them have a very difficult time getting them. I totally believe that anyone who wants a manual tranny in any vehicle should be able to obtain one. Myself included for my fantasy weekend car!
Those engines today, built as is years ago, could not be sold. They wouldn't meet federal air pollution requirements.
BMW or any other manufacturer, especially Subaru, could easily make a GT-R type turbo car. Subaru gets 300hp and 430 lbs torque out of their 2.5 liter STI engine. For BMW to do the same thing, it would cannabilize sales of the M5 or M3. In the meantime - let the other manufacturers come up with an entry level lux turbo sedan at the same price point.
The GT-R is rumored to be an $80K car, so it's not in this market segment. We might as well talk about Bugatti and say we're not impressed with anything from any manufacturer.
Handles great and very sensitive to road input but I was not impressed with the engine performance. It hesitated off the line and I don’t care what anyone says, you can feel the turbo lag. I prefer the more linear characteristics of the naturally aspirated BMW engines. It also didn't seem as powerful as I expected and the car feels heavy. Also the brakes are very sensitive.
I drove it for only about 15 minutes and would like to put it through the paces for an extended amount of time before I form a final opinion. I really need to observe that engine more and drive the 328. Also, I’m pretty sure 17 inch wheels would suit me better.
The backseat legroom situation seems similar to the sedan, it works. However, as expected, headroom in the back severely compromised. No matter, the 3-coupe is a sexy vehicle IMO and I could probably find a way to configure it to my liking, even if I had to make compromises.
I don't really like sitting low and the seats look like as if they are extremly low.
Boy you must REALLY be disappointed in the 330i to be considering a FWD, 4 cylinder VW.
I was impressed by how well you articulated the differences in your previous generation 3 series to the new one you now own, but based upon your obvious "enthusiast" tendencies, I would never have expected to see you leaning to a FWD anything. Unfortunately there aren't too many RWD alternatives in that price range, but I've seen a few older low mileage M3's that I would have thought might catch your fancy.
So the 330i is that bad, huh?
Does sound somewhat disappointing.
Which reminds me of the 335i test drive appointment I have not made yet. I am in no rush since I am still waiting for the sedan.
Checked with my dealer and he says a 335i sedan will unlikely be introduced soon.
As for VW quality, yeah it sucks, but so does BMW quality. i have no choice as no Japanese companies make a fun, efficient, powerful car. Mazda's Mazdapseed3 may but it's now end of october/start of november.
If a small (sub 170 inch) 30 mpg highway RWD sedan/hatch were out, i'd go for it. No such beast exists right now.
You can pre-order 335i sedans right now. The pricing is available too. What's your dealer trying to pull?
FANTASTIC NEWS! This is the best automotive news I heard in my lifetime.
Weeks ago I asked my dealer to call me when he gets news about a 335i sedan. And he assured me that I will be the first to know.
He must have forgotten me :mad: Why am I always the last to know---I've never read anything official yet about a 335i sedan?
I will definitely be going for a 335i coupe test drive this week and hopefully it does go well. A 335i Sedan would be a wonderful addition to my family (a 06 BMW 530xi Touring and a 83 MB300D). Unfortunately my bargaining leverage will be limited if I pre-order it. Oh well I guess I waited long enough .
me: you may be right; but the tech-trend has been that engines have gotten more powerful and cleaner. I don't know if the Evolution's engine is related, but they get 286hp from a 2L turbo. So again I'm not impressed by a 3L TT making 300hp. And I agree that other manufacturers can do that too.
kd: For BMW to do the same thing, it would cannabilize sales of the M5 or M3.
me: Then either BMW has 1 too many performance models?
kd: let the other manufacturers come up with an entry level lux turbo sedan at the same price point.
me: I believe Saab and Volvo have and currently do have many of these models. I had a Dodge Spirit RT years ago with a 2.2L turbo. Yes it seemed fun and sounded neat, producing 225hp (good for the early 90"s), but it is not a replacement for displacement. The market here in the U.S. at least when gas is moderate is for larger displacement, automatics. That is what people prefer and the manufacturers thus build. That trend will continue as shiftable automatics become more plentiful, and traffic congestion increases annually.
I did read where the hottest setup though is a small displacement engine with a super&turbo on it. Now that might catch on at least in smaller vehicles.
;-)
"It's not a bad car. It's just not a car that appeals to me. Ditto the M3. Don't like the 2 door coupes at all, the stigma, the poor efficiency or the idea of owning a BMW outside warranty (bad luck with BMWs thus far)."
Sounds to me like you are having a severe case of delayed buyer's remorse, and perhaps just some crappy luck with your particular BMW's. But I would hardly classify BMW quality as "it sucks". And even with your bad luck, I don't think you should jump out of the frying pan and into the fire with VW. Not a couple, not a few, but every single person we know (granted, only 5-6) that has purchased a VW in the past 3-4 years has wished they hadn't. Three Touareg's and 2-3 Passats. But what the heck do I know, I've never owned a BMW or a VW. I bought a Porsche holding my breath and thank goodness it's been near perfect.
"If a small (sub 170 inch) 30 mpg highway RWD sedan/hatch were out, i'd go for it. No such beast exists right now."
You sound like you are pining for my old 1978 Datsun B210GX. Under 2,100 lbs, RWD, 40+ mpg highway, hatchback + 4 seat flexibility. Oh, and 0-60 in under 5.0 ....MINUTES. :surprise:
As far as the turbos go, yes this is new technology (just not on trucks). Go to NASIOC and see how many STI owners would like a variable vane turbo rather then there VF39's. It eliminates turbo lag. BMW was not trying to beat all comers on horsepower. They already did that with the last 3.2liter M3 (as far as 6cyl are concerned). They wanted better fule economy and a huge flat torque curve. O and a WRX STI does not have 430lb-ft in stock form. Not even close. My other ride is a 02WRX with stage 3 mods (vf30 turbo and larger IC). It has been fun and reliable but I have no gurentee it will be tomorrow, the BMW with less HP is what I choose to drive most of the time. Its just more comfortable and I dont have to shift (yes I am lazy), it also handels as well. Next car will be the next M3. Since I moved out of the great north east I dont need AWD anymore.
EDIT: the only other manufacturer I know of to use variable vane turbos are acura and porsche.
LOL,
my wife already complains that our 530xi is too fast for her (mind you she is still used to driving her older 83 MB300D)
If safety was the number 1 goal, they wouldn't be going fast to begin with.
For the most part BMWs design their torque curve to kick in at low rpms. The engines are designed not be high strung. The cars are a compromise between performance and usability. The STI or EVO are not compromises, they are no luxury rally vehicles. Except for the M cars, the engines are designed for most torque at low rpms, not max torque at high rpms . So whether you are impressed or not is irrelevant, they are not designed as high-strung engines.
"me: Then either BMW has 1 too many performance models? "
That's the job of the marketing! In the same vein the Camry doesn't have more luxury items than the ES350.
"me: I believe Saab and Volvo have and currently do have many of these models."
Where is the Volvo (a pig on the road) in this classification (entry level lux sports sedans), or the FWD Saab? Might as well throw the Legacy in as well and every single car that has a turbo. Let's call 'em all entry level luxury sports sedans.
Correct, but the point was, they can pull it out of the engine with no trouble whatsoever.
More importantly does anybody have a weblink that can give me more riveting details about the BMW 335i Sedan?
Thanks
Dewey
And the best way I can describe it is by spelling it out N-I-R-V-A-N-A!
In my case the twin turbo I drove was no throttle-killer. It delivered great acceleration in every gear I tested. Shifting gears with a stick was the smoothest of smooth experiences.
You are correct the steering was definitely superior to a 330i sedan that I had also tested today.The car handled the few sharp bends and curves I took quite flawlessly.
Rear space was more than I had expected. The interior's fit and finish quality seemed superior to the sedan.
Everything about this car seemed superior to the sedan, especially the styling. I love the styling so much that I just may get a coupe instead of the sedan. The coupe looks a bit like the 1980's 6 series and definitely looks more expensive than the sedan. Unfortunately a sedan is more suitable to my family needs.
So right now my decision to purchase the 335 is dependent on one unresolved matter: chooing between the coupe or the sedan?
But certainly not stiff enough to build up some extra leg muscle.
The coupe looks far nicer than all the photos I've seen so far. It's a non-photogenic beauty.
I emailed an associate of mine who works for BMW in Germany and she said 335i sedans should become availible stateside beginning in Otober and should be saturated in most markets by late November. It has been availible there since mid-June I believe. If your dealer said it wasn't coming then they obviously just wanted to move units on the lot. I won't say not to work with them but let them clearly know what you want and if they won't supply the service take your business elsewhere.
me: They may not be luxury cars, but they have the typical power features of most cars. Plus they have the important performance feature of AWD.
kd: Except for the M cars, the engines are designed for most torque at low rpms, not max torque at high rpms
me: You should talk facts, not what you're perception is. from: http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/Comparos/articleId=109126/pageId=684- - - - 28 "Trust us, you'll like it. The 2.0-liter engine is smooth all the way up and, basically, there's never less than 250 lb-ft of torque from 2,500 to 6,000 rpm." And this is from an engine 2/3 the displacement of the BMW.
Again I ask you where is the power. If they followed the same formula as the EVO we should be seeing 400+ hp and ft-lb. If I'm paying $45K-$50K for a car why would someone only want 300hp?
The EVO X due next year will be 300+ hp from a 2L, with a 6-spd. paddle-shifting automatic, with AWD, the latest safety and power features, and is expected to lose weight. Now that is progress.
Regarding power v. displacement. While it's true that the EVO has a 2.0l and the WRX STi has a 2.5l engine they use much larger turbos and a higher boost as well. That's why there is more perceivable turbo lag in those applications. That's not to say they are bad but the 335i engine still feels like it's naturally aspirated for all intents and purposes. That's why it's getting so much press and rave reviews much like the VW/ Audi 2.0 FSI did.
http://www.automobilemag.com/features/news/0609_2007_bmw_335i_dyno_revised/
The 335i is running over 330 hp/330 tq. Okay? When you're seeing 285 whp and 285 wtq the engine is underrated by a long shot.
And the 2500-6k rpm of the 2.0 means you've got a long, long lag time before the car gets moving. The BMW 3.0TT makes full torque at 1400 rpm. Big difference.
Additionally, the 2007 335i e90 (sedan) starts at 38k, so where's this 45k nonsense coming from? That's a 6 speed with xenon, power everything, roof, etc. Demand leather? That'll be 1400. You're still under 40k msrp. Even with sport package you're at 41.5k.
The current Evo is not in this class - stop discussing it here. You're comparing apples to oranges. An economy car with AWD and a turbo engine doesn't generally appeal to the same crowd.
I traded a 2000 CLK430.
After 3 months and 3800 miles, no problem or dealer visits
The torque seems to be improving as I did the "Slow" breakin
Driving in manual is all the torque I can use in a big city.
The car is almost "too tight" w/ the sport package and RFT.... no real problem with the tires, but may try non-RFT next time.
the Digital stereo jams!
The cruise control is cool... one small click to +/- one mph, one click to +/- 5 mph.
28 mpg TOPS on Hwy.. you may get 30 on 55 on a flat road. 17 in the city without pushing it much. I think the fule computer is flawed as it jumps .3 to .4 at a time. My CLK was better.
Overall, very happy for $41K.... jim
As said previously they are no nonsense, no luxury rally cars, not in this segment at all, where BMWs, Infinitis, and Lexus have a balance of performance, handling and most important some luxury features. To say they have most modern conveniences, is not the same as saying they are luxury vehicles. In addition, last I noted, a number of cars in this segment have AWD as well, and those that don't have a plan on the drawing board for AWD. AWD is not needed, in a lot of country.
"me: You should talk facts, not what you're perception is. from:"
That doesn't negate the facts, the Sti and Evo are high strung engines requiring high rpms to extract maximum performance. None of these luxury cars are geared or designed to be high strung, yet are capable of being revved. As blueguy noted, the 335 starts up at 1400 rpm.
"Again I ask you where is the power."
Think blueguy adequately answered the question.
The BMW engine and the EVO engine are designed for two different audiences/applications. Taking the EVO down the Autobahn would be a vastly different, although not superior experience, to taking the 335 down the autobahn. Yet, I wouldn't rally my BMW, although some may track it. Different strokes for different folks.
Why do Porsche purists prefer the GT2 and GT3 over the standard 911 Turbo? Hear much clamoring for AWD out of the Ferrari or Elise crowds? Is there a big push for an AWD viper or M3? Never heard someone say, "The ZO6 is fun but with AWD it'd be the bees knees."
AWD's great if your in wet/snowy/sloppy conditions but for some of us those conditions just don't occur.
You forgot AWD's additional initial expense and added long term maintenance/repairs. We are on the same page on this one.
Me three.
Best Regards,
Shipo
M
Best Regards,
Shipo
US spec - picked it up in Germany. There ya go, it exists and they're being delivered...
OW
Those are great pics in the post you linked.
The 335i e90 sedan has not reached US shores yet. This guy picked his up via European Delivery.