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Comments
http://new-g35.com/default.htm
I think it looks superb, even better than current one. Has 330+ horses.
Here's the quote that excited and eventually let down auto enthusiasts:
"We're taking dead aim at the top of the class with the new IS," said Lexus Marketing Vice President Mark Templin. "We plan to offer a compelling range of models and options with class-leading performance and luxury."
I was giddy watching the online unveiling of the IS350 in March of 05 . The promise of 3 series performance with legendary lexus reliability had me nuts with anticipation. I poured over every detail of the new IS350 and believed the hype. Finally, a company with the economic and engineering muscle to accomplish anything promised to dethrone the 3 series. Alas, it didn't come to pass. The IS350 was more expensive than my 3 by a long shot and far less fun.
PS: you guys suck at the research thing. :P
That press release should quite some of the posters on this forum who believe that the IS was NOT marketed to driving enthusiasts.
IMHO the IS series IS a good blend of performance, luxury, reliability and comfort. Lexus really needs, at this point, to hone in on the "performance" aspect and surely it would well be on its way to dethroning the 3er.
I am not going to get into another discussion of what's performance. For me performance is the combination of handling, road-feel, smooth tranny, acceleration and many others. One thing for sure is the IS did deliver on the acceleration part but maybe not so much of the other area. However on the other hand the 3er at that time was seriously behind the acceleration game but leading on the other area. Maybe the 330i has a better overall package on performance (which I think it does) but it's still fairly subjective.
By the way, the IS has definitely delivered on the luxury part though.
Nope, I think IS is marketed to the so-call driving enthusiasts poseurs like me. Since so far the IS is doing pretty good I'll bet there is a decent size of poseur market out there somewhere.
Again, that's the proof of Lexus did their homework.
If you can't beat somebody in his game you have 2 choices:
1. Join him
2. Don't play his game
Looks to me Lexus choose the later.
But it initially appeared to me - and apparantly others - that Lexus marketed the IS350 as a serious sports sedan. To that extent it falls short of the 335i. False expectations were created. That does not detract from its luxury attributes and the fact that for some it represents a better personal choice.
And, on that note, I'm going to conclude my rambling with a "so what" back to myself. We are all, I assume, reasonably intelligent people who can set marketing pitches aside and make purchase decisions for ourselves. The fact that Lexus might have been a bit ambitious in marketing the "sport" orientation of the IS is not the end of the world. Nor is Acura's coining the term "super handling" for something that isn't. Hell, when I bought my 2002 Honda S2000, it WAS a "substitute" for the "there is no substitute" Porsche Boxster. And a pretty damn good one at that.
So take my comments with the assurance that I respect your decision to get a very nice car that has the balance of attributes that work for you. If we all agreed on everything, this would be a boring world. Although I wouldn't mind seeing a few more Robie Houses and a few less Toll Brothers houses in the future.
Hear hear...
I, for one, have never believed in any market campaign. I guessed that's why I can't relate myself to many others whom actually believed it.
If you can't beat somebody in his game you have 2 choices:
1. Join him
2. Don't play his game
I do NOT think BMW is somehow invicible at "their game". I'll argue vehemently that the S2000 was heads and shoulders a better roadster from a driving dynamics standpoint than the Z3/Z4 ever was/is. Granted, the three series has been their strong suit. But even the 5 series evolution, to a bigger, bulkier, heavier car, with a less driver oriented cockpit and stupid i-drive opened the door for competition. I had hoped Acura would make a RWD V-8 RL with some of the same engineering creativity that went into the S2000 and give BMW a run for their money. Wishful thinking.
But I hope that other manufacturers don't run for the hills rather than challenge BMW as the king of the sports sedans. If nothing else, it will make BMW work harder, whcih is a good thing for consumers.
O.K., I'm really done now.
Guess that's me. The thing is, I wanted to believe I could find BMW driving dynamics wrapped in a reliable Lexus. People would ask about my 03 ZHP and I'd tell them it was a blast to drive but I'd never want to own it. If possible, I'd own a car that was super fun and reliable. I can't find such a thing, so I'm stuck leasing BMWs.
The Lexus brand, like the Caddy one, appeals to a certain group. A group that places luxury above performance. i'm not in that group. It'd make life a lot easier if I could put up with a dowdy, bland car like a used Lexus LS430. I could buy one now and just drive it for 6-7 years like a friend of mine. But I'm not that sort of driver.
You managed to quote me out of context. What I said was:
"...that says something like, "The new IS will outperform the 3-Series in every category."
Keep in mind that I hadn't seen the quote from the Lexus executive in question for over a year (apparently a year and a half), hence the fact that I qualified my statement with the "something like" part. FWIW, my interpretation of, "We're taking dead aim at the top of the class with the new IS. We plan to offer a compelling range of models and options with class-leading performance and luxury." apparently was, and still is very much in line with what I wrote earlier.
I think it bears repeating that I've never said that the IS was a bad car, I've simply pointed out that it failed to measure up to the very benchmark the early rhetoric claimed it would exceed. Said another way, "Good car, just not good enough for my tastes."
Best Regards,
Shipo
Hopefully the Santa Clause is still coming this year...
It was suppose to be a joke if you don't get it...
In the new C&D comparo of luxury performance cars, M45 edges out 550i, price dependent. Price independent, 550 edges out M45. M has considerable power deficit. The two cars bringing up the rear are E550 and GS450h.
G35 and 335i probably will be closely matched, price dependent or not. So BMW is not invincible to Infiniti, probably invincible to everyone else!
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
I've driven the Infiniti M45 and, IMO, it isn't even close to the 550i, not to mention that it only comes with a slushbox transmission option.
Agreed.
With price independent and driving dynamics as the number one priority BMW is still hands down the benchmark in the segments.
Rocky
Even though we all know you are not.
Poseur car, plain and simple. :P
"Maybe they are getting over MSRP here or hoping I'm a sucker ????"
Ummm, if the shoe fits...
Best Regards,
Shipo
I have yet to see any Lexus that can match even the lower-end Jaguar interiors for refinement, and luxury.
Plus Jaguar has more of a world-wide audience than any Lexus (where is Lexus in Europe, the birthplace of the entry-level, small luxury sedan)?
Check out the current X or S type Jaguars, and you will definitely not be disappointed. Buy one and you will not regret not buying a Lexus / BMW / MB.
/DA
uhhhh... the keyword to this discussion is "performance."
Let us know when the X-type comes even close to a performance sedan and maybe it could be considered for inclusion.
Buy one and you will not regret not buying a Lexus / BMW / MB.
... until resale time.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
You can't be serious. While Jaguar has done some nice cars from a stylistic perspective, they haven't been world class in the driving dynamics department since the late/great XKE, the X-Type (a wannabe ELLPS) even less so.
Before I got my 2002 530i I took a spin in a gorgeous S-Type, and as much as I LOVED how it looked, I felt like I was driving my Mom's Cadillac. Ewwwww. Well, it wasn't actually that bad, but "ewwwww" none-the-less. Last year I drove an X-Type (even though I find it the ugly duckling of the Jaguar lineup) on the same day as I drove an IS350, an A4 and A3, a Saab SportCombi 2.0T and a 330i. From a driving dynamics perspective, the only car that was worse (but not by much) than the X-Type was the Saab.
True, from a quality control perspective, Ford seems to have helped Jaguar out a lot, however, from a design perspective; things are pretty much a disaster. Said another way, I really don't believe that Jaguar has a car that truly competes with other cars in the "Entry-Level Luxury Performance Sedans" arena.
Best Regards,
Shipo
So you guys say I could get a navi 335i with a stick for under $44,000 ?
Is the "active steering" not as good as the editors say. The other downside of navigation is that stupid i-drive which accompany's the navi. :sick:
I'd consider a 335i as a choice because I really like the car alot. I know I sound like a "hater" but actually I respect the car. 0-60 in 4.8 is something I respect. I'd of course would want a sedan in that cool
"Blue color" :shades: I basically would want my car to be a high-speed grand tourer. I'll have to check into it further I suppose. Can you build them on the BMW site yet ? I guess I can check, right ?
Rocky
As for 335i with manual and navi... build it on BMWUSA.com. Seems to me that's totally possible. Even without ED. Now if you want extras like the premium package ($2200 for bluetooth, dimming mirrors, a garage door opener and leather...ripoff?), the price is gonna jump.
I just built one pal. $51,240. That was every option excluding active steering. :sick:
I could afford a car like this since they do hold their resale and a lease might not hurt all that bad. I'm not sure if it is worth that much dough personally to me. I like navigation since I do travel and plan on much more here in the near future. Even taking off Navi/i-drive I'm still looking at $49K. You are right that if you click the option buttons it adds up really fast. I'm like this....I can save at least $10K+ and get 90-95% of the performance of the 335i in a Infiniti G35, or wait for the CTS-V and still pay less or around the same.
The 335i, is a nice car for people that have bigger wallets than me. I don't want to sacrifice "gadgets" when I can get them on others for alot less when I click the option box.
Rocky
I just built one pal. $51,240. That was every option excluding active steering.
I just built one for 43k - 335i sedan, leatherette, ZSP (sports package), navigation system. 44.5k with leather.
I really don't understand how someone can get to 50k with this car. You really have to add a lot of dubious gadgets to the car to reach that kinda price.
Personally, I can't bring myself to pay ANY amount of money for a car that doesn't have build quality, fit and finish and exterior/interior styling that at least meets my minimum requirements (which are admittedly high). GM/Chrysler/Ford fail on all counts. Back when I had my $32k Honda S2000, a guy I was golfing against in a club tournament joked that if I beat him, he would give me the keys to his Viper in exchange for my S2000's. I beat him, but wasn't joking when I turned down the offer.
If you can stomach a Cadillac, that's your perogative. But I am quite certain my 911S Cabriolet has cost me less in the first year of depreciation than a Caddy would have. And I expect that to be the case for at least the next 2-3 years. Factoring in 3-4 year depreciation, a 335i would be a bargain compared to the Caddy.
Just my 2 cents:
Oldengineer
me: well in 2004 it sure wasn't. I picked up a brand-new X-Type in the fall of '04. By Feb. of this year, I had a rust-stain running down the right side of the rear license plate. I believe the rust was coming from one of the mounting points (holes) for the chrome "Jaguar" plate in the middle of the trunk. Maybe a one-time problem, but it was partially responsible for me getting rid of it.
On another note, I was reading the Nov. R&T article on upcoming cars. It looks like Nissan and Toyota will be using 350hp V-6's in the Z-car and resurrected Supra in 2008. I would guess these similarly tuned engines will find their way into Infiniti and Lexus.
Saw a 335i coupe last Friday and it looks sweet. Look forward to see the first sedan live.
When I test drove the G35 coupe, it was great but my 12 year old daughter had to crouch down in the rear seat. Handled great, was fast but interior like a nissan did not leave goose bumps.
When I test drove the 330xi, I learned what a true driver's car was like. I felt the price higher than I was used to but negotiated like everyone else and glad I went with this car.
GM or Ford should really pair up with Toyota or BMW so we can cross-germinate some of this engineering. It's all about balance and knowing wht customers want in each target segment. BMW does a really good job of that and also for the tuner group in all of the series. Great stuff! DCX is getting this right now with the SRT line. I drove the SRT-8 300 and what a blast! for mid-40's, it was tempting but the residual is a real body-blow! I'm sniffing a Z06 now!
One of the reasons why BMW and Porsche do this so well is because they are small companies - not part of a mega-corporation with other financial stakes. This is what allows them to build pure driver cars, not necessarily cars that Hertz will buy a fleet of.
Also since you know what the '06 G35 was like, check out the redesigned '07 when it's out, and let us know if you think the interior has been improved much. An AWD G35 discounted to say $30K could be a good deal. Now if they just put that 350hp engine in it, from the Z-car in '08.
Leatherette. My god they can't put the real stuff in a $40K+ car without charging you
a arm and a leg ?
The Cadillac CTS, I'm considering is the all-new 2008' model which will rival or exceed the 335i. The 500-600 hp. CTS-V when you compare it to a loaded up 335i looks
like the deal of the decade. BTW- Even the current CTS's have a great resale, and I'm not some yuppie that needs a badge to feel confident about myself. BMW, flat out
is living off it's past glory days when they built about the only "Ultimate Driving Machine". Currently there are very competitive alternatives with price tags $5-10
and even $15K cheaper than a 335i and one (adult) doesn't have to sit in a back-seat
with their knees around their ears.
I'm glad you admitted only a 5'7 person would fit in the back seat. That wouldn't work for me since I and most of my family are over 6 ft. tall.
Rocky
Equip the 5 series with a decent engine, some good packages, and you're starting to look at it in the CA$80k + range (for the 530xi model)
Compare that to a Jaguar X-type 3.0 sport, which comes pretty much loaded @ ~CA$53k.
If you're looking at the S-type, I am kind of iffy on the design queues on that one... but can't argue with what it is - a marketing device meant to fill the void between the X-type and the XJ / XK level. (Apologies to any S-type lovers out there, but that's just my personal opinion.. I don't see the point in getting the S-type with the X-type available.. from my perspective, either fork out for the XJ, or keep your pennies with the X-type).
I'll eat my words for one exception to the S-type family - the S-Type R. It's a monster. 400 HP, and smooth as silk. I had the pleasure of getting to take a test drive in one of these... pretty much no words to describe how much I love driving this car. BUT, I would rather have the XJR for about CA$15k more, or the XKR, whenever that becomes available up here.
In the end, it may all wind up being a matter of personal choice. I see BMW's everywhere (I live in the same town as BMW's Canadian headquarters) and nobody looks twice because they are so common now. IMHO, all their cars look alike (the 3, 5 and to some degree, 7 all look like slightly longer, or shorter versions of the same car) and I'm getting really sick on them... but a Jaguar turns heads everywhere it goes - resale value notwithstanding.
/DA
You need to update your prescription pal. :P
It also has a lot of room
Yes and the 2008 I believe stretched 3 more inches.
But that's about where it ends. Caddy has come a long way in build quality, but it handles like a barge. The V is only going to make it fast in a straight line.
The 2008' will handle light years better than the current one pal. The V handles as well as any BMW 3 and it's bit larger. The 2008' or 2009' "V" will be a world class sport sedan we domestic buyer will be proud to show-off :shades:
Rocky
Best Regards,
Shipo
Cadillac dominates the Luxury SUV market by a landslide, that's not being competitive ?
The 2008 CTS, will send BMW, back to the drawing boards. The 08' CTS, was designed to exceed BMW's benchmarks with real technology, not some i-drive and faux steering system called "active steering" that even you BMW apologist admit is a pile of dung.
Rocky
Cadillac dominates the Luxury SUV market by a landslide, that's not being competitive ?
Caddy total truck sales:
2004: 92269
2005: 74143
BMW total truck sales:
2004: 69829
2005: 68367
Lexus total truck sales:
2004: 151797
2005: 151669
If by that you meant Caddy dominates the Lux SUV market by a landslide then I rest my case.
The 2008 CTS, will send BMW, back to the drawing boards
Before we jumped to any conclusion let's see a 2008 CTS that's NOT ON THE DRAWING BOARD!!!
Rocky, you have a tendency of having high hopes on future cars. Once those fairy tales of yours are broken you then either beat that car to death or continue your parade with another fairy tale. Examples:
1. You used to have high hopes on 335i and claimed that'll be your next car.
2. 2007 Acura TL will have SH-AWD and 300+ HP.
1. You used to have high hopes on 335i and claimed that'll be your next car.
Well it was going to be until BMW, didn't do anything to improve the cabin space and then on top of that they jacked the price sky high.
2007 Acura TL will have SH-AWD and 300+ HP.
Well that's what a Acura spokesmouth told me.
I was referring to the 2007's. GM should sell over 100K 2007' Caddy truck units.
Lexus has like 5 or 6 different truck models. Is that really a fair comparo ? They also don't make a large SUV either. Well if you call the LX 470 large. :confuse:
Rocky
M
Rocky
BMW's are in every other driveway on my street, so they kind of look like a Civic to me (I'm being intentionally obtuse here.)
No, I do like the BMW's, and I think the 3 Series is an excellent vehicle. The base model with a standard transmission is a real joy to drive.
My original thread was just to point out that there are some small luxury brands that people tend to forget about.
The Mercedes c-class is great value for the $ too..
So if I had to make a shopping list of entry-level luxury cars, it would be the following: (in no particular order)
Jaguar x-type sport, or sportwagon (I still love wagons!)
BMW 3-Series (325i, 325xi Touring, or 330i)
Mercedes C-Class (C280, or C350)
Lexus IS350
Infiniti G35 sedan
Volvo S40 sedan, V50 wagon (debateable about whether this qualifies as 'luxury', but in my book, it does)
And I think any of them would be great cars - the subjective part would be which particular car would be exceptional to me.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
2008' Cadillac CTS
2008-2009' Holden Commodore/Pontiac Grand Prix HSV/GXP
2009' Acura TL SH-AWD
Lincoln MKS 3.7 V-6 350 hp.
2007' Infiniti G35
and maybe
Dodge Charger SRT-8
That's my short-list
Rocky
When did BMW jack the price of 335i sky high? I think they raised the base price for around $1500K (I think it's around something like that but not sure though) and I don't think that's bad at all considering the 50+ HP boost and twin turbo.
Well that's what a Acura spokesmouth told me
Car-Buying 101: Never trust a salesman.
Sometimes a common sense and a little bit of research can prevent yourself looking like a fool. Changing from FWD to SH-AWD during MMC...Rocky, what were you thinking? :P
I was referring to the 2007's. GM should sell over 100K 2007' Caddy truck units.
Again, "should", "would", "ought to", "could" is not going to change the reality that Caddy is NOT dominating the Luxury market as well as the Luxury SUV market. How is it possible that you can refer to the 07' when some of them are not even on the dealers' lot yet. Sometimes it's good to have hard facts to back up your own statement instead of just pulling random *beep* out of your rear. Even a trip down to your local dealership for a test drive (335i maybe?) could help your credibility.
Lexus has like 5 or 6 different truck models. Is that really a fair comparo ?
Like merc1 said, Lexus has only 3 truck models - GX, LX and RX. The hybrid is only a variant with different engine of the RX lineup so it's not a separate model by itself (example: 335i/328i, IS350/250 and your beloved CTS 2.8L/3.6L). Also, and yes the Land Cruiser has always come with Toyota badge and still is.
They also don't make a large SUV either. Well if you call the LX 470 large
I did not see anywhere in your previous post stating anything about "large SUV". You only mentioned Caddy is dominating the "luxury truck market" by a landslide which by now we know that's not the truth.
When you give me the money to buy my next car, I'll have your opinions and buy the car you want me to.
Until then.