Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

rockylee · October 2006

Another example of HP isn't everything: NSX

Engine: 3.2L V6
Horsepower: 290 7100 RPM
Torque: 224 5500 RPM
0-60: 4.9 sec

Agree the NSX is a kick-butt car.

It also due to it's aluminum body was ultra light.

The reality is, not many people are willing to pay big bucks for a Caddy but a lot of them would do that for a BMW. Like it or not, it's the truth.

GM, sells alot of Caddy's. So... :confuse:

Until the CTS can prove that it's the class leader in both performance (note: not just HP) and luxury it'll just be an also-ran in the many comparos to come.

As long as it mainly has the goods that the majority of customers want is all that matters. Sales, is the #1 objective.

By the way, why are we talking about the CTS-V, M3 and M5 in this forum anyway?

True....

Also, why are we comparing CTS-V to 335i?

Agree again.

The bottom line is, you can get a 335i for less than 40K (yes, fake leather I know but the 300HP twin turbo comes standard) but you can't do that with CTS-V.

I can come within' arms reach for actual transaction cost.

The last time I checked, CTS-V started at $52K and that's around where the 335i tops off.

That is true

So we agree to at least end this subject.

Thank-you. I'm glad I don't have to get strong-armed on that topic anymore :P

Rocky

kdshapiro · October 2006

"So we agree to at least end this subject."

Talking about a future vehicle that is not and entry level performance sedan and how it's gonna change the world is way off topic. I'm surprised the hosts let the conversation continue for as long as it has.

Having said that, it's fun to talk about the future. But talking the hypothetical demise of the performance entry level sedan category is ridiculous because GM might be releasing yet another gas thirsty so-so vehicle, while all the time watching the sales of the M5 go to zero.

You have a strange way of looking at buying a car, a loaded 335i goes for $52K, but a base CTS-V goes for $52???? That's your comparison? Makes no sense. A loaded CTS-V will probably be about $65K to $70K. Much, much more than a loaded 335i.

Seriously though you can create a new thread at any time here:

link title

Since you already found the new thread button for the Holden, I'm sure you can do the same for the CTS-V.

allargon · October 2006

A CTS-V competes against the M3 in price, no i-drive based navigation and straight line performance (yawn). In luxury, handling, feel, etc. the M3 tends to win. The CTS-V doesn't have options. It's fully loaded with a 6-speed no poseurs allowed manual tranny and a non i-drive based navigation @ $52K.

Singling out GM for releasing gas thirsty vehicles is a bit much. V10 M5's come with a gas guzzler tax, too. The CTS has lower mileage than the 330 (30 vs. 26), but the CTS uses non-premium gas.

Neither one is really an entry level performance sedan considering that the M3 is a coupe.

IMHO, the 2007 335i beats the 2007 CTS in everything but price (barely), reliability and rear seat room. (I test drove both the 330i w/ sport suspension and the CTS w/ 18" wheels on the same day!) A 2007 3.6 V6 CTS with 18" wheels and the sport suspension will have a MSRP north of $41k.

I'm glad people brought up the CTS again in these discussions, but err... umm... not quite.

(Somehow the Cadillac STS replaced the Audi A4 in the topic listings for this forum. Weird.)

I'm looking forward to the new (future vehicle) 2008 CTS. However, I may get impatient and buy a 2007 G35 instead. (Sorry, BMW fans, but for a daily driver sedan that's likely my sole vehicle, reliability trumps driving dynamics.)

kdshapiro · October 2006

But the discussion was never about the current lineup. The last few posts have been about how the 2008 CTS-V will demolish the competition and be an M5 beater.

BTW. I too want a reliable car, and BMWs fit that bill as well as G35s, but not as well as the IS.

habitat1 · October 2006

.. are M3's, M5's and some hypothetical/hopeful 2008 CTS-V Entry Level Luxury Performance sedans??

...and since when would anyone with any sense of good taste and financial wherewithall buy any GM car over an M3/M5 just because of 0-60 straight line performance?

cdnpinhead · October 2006

...and since when would anyone with any sense of good taste and financial wherewithall buy any GM car over an M3/M5 just because of 0-60 straight line performance?

You've answered your own question.

allargon · October 2006

Where on earth have you heard that the 3 series is as reliable as the G35? Everyone I've ever known that's owned a BMW has loved how the car drove but hated taking the car in and arguing with the service manager about fixing XYZ. Moreover, they've complained about power equipment prematurely having issues as well as interiors (headliners, trim, etc.) falling apart. The complaints I hear from G35 owners are of the expenses of brakes and tires. (yawn)

kdshapiro · October 2006

"Where on earth have you heard that the 3 series is as reliable as the G35? Everyone I've ever known that's owned a BMW has loved how the car drove but hated taking the car in and arguing with the service manager about fixing XYZ."

Your experiences have been exactly the opposite of mine and my E46 and the people I know that have BMWs. The people I know that have G35s aren't exactly raving about the stellar ownership experiences. I have to add no one has been stranded on the side of the road with either car.

rockylee · October 2006

Yeah, (In the future) we will have to talk about this subject again. 2008' CTS (non-V) vs. 335i.

I also have to agree with allargon, reliabilty is also a factor that gets little attention. If I was in allargon situation and wanted a daily driver the G35, is the way to go.

I wonder if the sedan has recieved the "rear active steer" otherwise known as "4WS" ?

Rocky

P.S.

If you bring up the Audi A4, then the CTS, deservingly belongs in the topic again since even the current CTS, makes the A4 "old and tired" :surprise:

blueguydotcom · October 2006

I don't personally know any BMW owners who would call their cars reliable or well-made.

1. My first 330i had major electrical and mechanical issues
2. Current e90 - brakes are grinding, comfort acess doesn't always work and AC has stopped a few times.
3. Bro-in-law's e46 - full tranny replacement under 30k miles
4. Co-worker's e46 - he's replaced so many parts it's insane - always has a sensor going out and right now his car has 3 warning lights on at all times.
5. Co-workers M3 - SMG stutters, mirrors keep bubbling.
6. Another co-workers' M3 Cab - top has stopped working more than once.
7. Bro-in-law's last 745 - the electrical system flat out stopped working.
8. Buddy's 540i - tranny replacement for over 4k.
9. Cousins' e46 - constant electrical issues.

At this point it's safe for me to say BMW makes fun cars. But they have lousy quality control and do not seem to give a hoot about quality or reliability.

I know 4 people with G35s and they all complain about brakes. That's it. The gripe that their brakes go out every 10-15k miles.

rockylee · October 2006

How about the 2009' Acura TL w/ SH-AWD and rumor 350 hp. ?

IMHO, when this car hits the market place, it will be crowned king of the entry-lex performance sedan. It will be better than the CTS, 335i, G35, etc.

The present:

The 2007' TL Type-S

Have any of you test driven one yet ?

Just was curious on how it performs compared o the regular TL ? Is their a big difference ?

Anyways thought I'd stir the pot a half turn with Acura.

Rocky

ggesq · October 2006

A BMW is the "ultimate driving machine" but I would hardly characterize a BMW as being a reliable vehicle in general especially in comparison to its Japanese counterparts. Glad to see your e46 has treated you well but I have two friends that own e46's and while they absolutely enjoy driving their cars they despise the electrical issues they have.

ggesq · October 2006

There is alot of rumor about the 09 getting AWD- it's almost a certainty but 350 hp? Where did you find that?

rockylee · October 2006

I read on another site that Honda was considering using there new turbo's on other models including the 09 TL, to spread and reduce the turbo costs. U also need to remember the AWD system adds weight so Honda, will need class leading hp & tq to move that girth. What's better than using a turbo or 2 to get the desired performance while retaining gas mileage. Kinda like BMW did with the 335i

Makes sense to me

Rocky

habitat1 · October 2006

Rocky,

IF, such a thing as a 2009 TL w/ SH-AWD and 350 hp arrives in 2-3 years, it still would unlikely be crowned by me as the king of this class.

Have you driven the RL? It is heavy, slow and not particularly SH (super handling). From the sounds of it, the hypothetical 2009 TL you describe would wipe out the remaining minimal sales of the RL and probably capture some Audi purchasers, but I don't think it would take sales from those who are looking for a crisp handling, relatively lighter weight, RWD sport sedan. Not to mention that Acura would probably be stupid enough to not offer a 6-speed manual, like they have unwisely decided to do in the RL and (new) base TL.

I know I don't speak for everyone in the "sport" segment, but if I were given AWD for free, I wouldn't take it on a 3 series, 5 series, E-class or, belive it or not, a 911. The added weight and likely future maintenance/repair issues are counterproductive to what I want. We have an SUV to go through the snow - I don't want to see "nimble" become extinct in "sport" sedans and sports cars.

kdshapiro · October 2006

In deference to blueguys experience, which to me is more an abnormality as I don't know any BMW owners that have repeated trips to the dealer except for usual maintenance, I wouldn't say the BMW is as reliable as Lexus, but I wouldn't characterize it as being unreliable.

As far as G35 goes, brakes, rattles and other various mechanical issues requiring trips to the dealer to fix. But I agree the G35 for the most part is not prone to electrical problems, but the mechanical issues are another story.

ggesq · October 2006

I should have edited my post- BMW IMHO is not an unreliable car, because I have friends that basically run their 3ers into the ground with 150k+ miles and the car still runs great- bottom line- great engine.
However, I do believe there are QC issues that BMW's are prone to e.g. electricial problems.

louiswei · October 2006

From what I observed so far, I found that European cars like BMW and MB tend to have issues on the electronics but rarely have mechanical issues. Is that the general consensus from you Bimmer owners? If so, does anybody know what is the reason for that?

When I am in the market for a replacement of my current ride (probably 4 years from now) I would love to again consider another 3-series. However, things like this and the ugly interior (personal preference I know) would ultimately steer me back to the Japanese.

Dream car = BMW performance and handling + Lexus reliability and refinement + Acura Interior

rockylee · October 2006

IF, such a thing as a 2009 TL w/ SH-AWD and 350 hp arrives in 2-3 years, it still would unlikely be crowned by me as the king of this class.

It would be a nice feature since one could drive year around and topple BMW 3 on the skidpad.

Have you driven the RL? It is heavy, slow and not particularly SH (super handling).

Yes, I agree the 3.5 doesn't provide the desired grunt needed to make the car nimble enough. The unit IMHO is the best AWD unit on the market. I got to drive it on a small stretch of curvy hwy in Dallas, and was impressed the way it would take a corner deep before you had to use throttle and brakes.

From the sounds of it, the hypothetical 2009 TL you describe would wipe out the remaining minimal sales of the RL and probably capture some Audi purchasers, but I don't think it would take sales from those who are looking for a crisp handling, relatively lighter weight, RWD sport sedan.

RL, will have a V-10 by then from what I read. Audi, would be hurt especially if Honda was able to keep the price down.

BMW, sells alot of AWD units. Are they not nimble ?

Not to mention that Acura would probably be stupid enough to not offer a 6-speed manual, like they have unwisely decided to do in the RL and (new) base TL.

They aren't that dumb.

I know I don't speak for everyone in the "sport" segment, but if I were given AWD for free, I wouldn't take it on a 3 series, 5 series, E-class or, belive it or not, a 911. The added weight and likely future maintenance/repair issues are counterproductive to what I want.

I'm a big AWD fan and feel quite the opposite as you. 4 wheels powering my car is always better than 2 IMHO. More grip. Audi proved it and were thus banned for using Quattro. :P

We have an SUV to go through the snow - I don't want to see "nimble" become extinct in "sport" sedans and sports cars.

The AWD, 4WS, Dodge Stealth, was perhaps the most nimble car ever made, outside of "perhaps" a Golf Cart namned Lotus Elise. The Stealth was amazing around a tight track and it's AWD/4WS gave it unfair advantages

Just my $0.02 pal

Rocky

louiswei · October 2006

topple BMW 3 on the skidpad

(cough)bullsh...

RL, will have a V-10 by then from what I read

(cough)bullsh...

rockylee · October 2006

ROTFLMAO :P

Your funny. You could be right, or you might have to hold back that nasty cough :P

Rocky

designman · October 2006

I'm a BMW owner and fan who is in it primarily for the driving characteristics just as many others are. However I find it hard to stay this way because most of their cars are ugly and cheap looking both in and out. The problem is that when everything is added up, there just aren't that many alternatives that I care for. No matter how I slice it, choosing a car today is a compromise for me and I probably blame it on marketing and the quest of auto manufacturers to outdo each other with frivolous features and feeble attempts at fashion.

The only vehicles I would currently buy from BMW are the 3-series coupe and X3. I cant recall a time when the BMW pickins were so slim for me, especially in light of their product expansion. I have had the opportunity to drive, get up close and personal with many current BMWs and everytime I get back into my E39 530 I say to myself, man, its incredible how cheap these cars feel today. Yes, they still drive great albeit somewhat differently but the sum total really tests my threshold of satisfaction.

habitat1 · October 2006

"BMW, sells alot of AWD units. Are they not nimble ?"

A lot less nimble than their RWD counterparts.

"I'm a big AWD fan and feel quite the opposite as you. 4 wheels powering my car is always better than 2 IMHO. More grip. Audi proved it and were thus banned for using Quattro."

That's your perogative. Pay for the extra gas, ALL THE TIME. Pay for the extra maintenance and, potentially, expensive repairs down the road. And then call me up when it's pouring rain or a freak snowstorm in Texas and ask me if I want to race? No thanks. Further, I have no intention of taking any of my cars, 911 included, to an off-road event. That's where Audi's Quatro shines. But you couldn't give me an overweight S4 for half the price of an M3 on the paved roads I drive.

"They aren't that dumb." (Acura on the lack of manual transmissions)

Wanna bet? The "sporty" RL has no 6-speed manual in 2006. The Legend GS had one in 1996. All BMW 5-series have them. The 2007 TL will not have a 6-speed manual, unless you go to the TL-S model. And with that, Acura is adding more power to a FWD platform. Oh yes, it will be the "king" - of wheel hop and torque steer. Dumb is as dumb does and in spite of 2 very nice Acura's in our driveway, they aren't exactly proving to me to be Rhodes scholars.

"The AWD, 4WS, Dodge Stealth, was perhaps the most nimble car ever made, outside of "perhaps" a Golf Cart namned Lotus Elise."

Complete bullsh... (cough, cough). You need to stop spreading those BS germs.

dhamilton · October 2006

the whole thing about all wheel drive adding to much weight and taking agility out of the car due to to much responsibility on the front end. However their are some truly remarkable engineering feats that can throw a wrench in those arguments. For instance, the fastest sedan through the slalom that Edmunds has ever tested is the evo. The second fastest is the RS4. [meaning faster than the M5] So, it seems that their are ways around the physics.

habitat1 · October 2006

Come on, you are comparing pocket rockets to an M5? Put three of your 6'2" 200 lb friends and four sets of golf clubs in the trunk and then try the slalom.

I am not disputing that AWD, properly engineered, can be useful. As in putting all of the 911 Turbo's power to the ground such that at "only" 480 horsepower, it will outaccelerate a Viper, Z06, etc. by a large margin. But my neighbor who was on Porsche's racing team would take a RWD GT3 over a Turbo for a winding track course - and win, in spite of a 100 hp and 200 ft-lb disadvantage.

ggesq · October 2006

"All BMW 5-series have them."

Too bad the M5 doesn't have it

rockylee · October 2006

A lot less nimble than their RWD counterparts.

True, but they still sell quite a few for it being a BMW

That's your perogative. Pay for the extra gas, ALL THE TIME. Pay for the extra maintenance and, potentially, expensive repairs down the road. And then call me up when it's pouring rain or a freak snowstorm in Texas and ask me if I want to race? No thanks. Further, I have no intention of taking any of my cars, 911 included, to an off-road event. That's where Audi's Quatro shines. But you couldn't give me an overweight S4 for half the price of an M3 on the paved roads I drive.

#1 It's an Acura not a BMW, it won't break down. BIG DIFFERENCE !!!!!

#2 Snowstorms in the Tx Panhandle aren't freak, ask rorr.

#3 SH-AWD enhances handling, not dimishes it.

Wanna bet? The "sporty" RL has no 6-speed manual in 2006. The Legend GS had one in 1996. All BMW 5-series have them. The 2007 TL will not have a 6-speed manual, unless you go to the TL-S model. And with that, Acura is adding more power to a FWD platform. Oh yes, it will be the "king" - of wheel hop and torque steer. Dumb is as dumb does and in spite of 2 very nice Acura's in our driveway, they aren't exactly proving to me to be Rhodes scholars.

Agree somewhat. However with the RDX, it outshines the X3 in handling. They are sheer geniuous when it boils down to design and technology. The new product will surely be competitive with BMW, if the RDX is any reference for the future. They have and always will outshine BMW in technology IMHO

Complete bullsh... (cough, cough). You need to stop spreading those BS germs.

BMW, has never made a car that could handle quite like the Dodge Stealth. They were nimble. The 2008' M3 could be the exception. So yeah I'm coughing BS, on your disagreement.

Rocky

kdshapiro · October 2006

The TL is a nose heavy car. Not much SHAWD is gonna do for that car no matter how many hp they put into it.

The Dodge Stealth, you've got to be kidding me.

blueguydotcom · October 2006

But my neighbor who was on Porsche's racing team would take a RWD GT3 over a Turbo for a winding track course - and win, in spite of a 100 hp and 200 ft-lb disadvantage.

Exactly.

At the track earlier this year a few guys had GT3s and those cars were monsters. Yummy.

blueguydotcom · October 2006

BMW, has never made a car that could handle quite like the Dodge Stealth...

You mean a 4000 lb car that was sluggish and undulated in corners? You're right. Recently BMW hasn't made a car that can handle quite as poorly as a Stealth.

habitat1 · October 2006

"#1 It's an Acura not a BMW, it won't break down. BIG DIFFERENCE !!!!! "

Re-check your facts. Honda/Acura have had major problems with their automatic transmissions. Won't admit to more than 2% failures, but 30%+ of the owners of TL's and MDX's we know (4 of 12) have had failures. In one case, two failures. My Acura dealer has replaced more Acura automatics at less than 50,000 miles than he has clutches at 100,000+ miles. I have no particluar reason to believe that the SH-AWD system is doomed to fail at some point. But for me, it doesn't add any value on a SPORT SEDAN, so why take the risk? MDX/RDX are a different animal. This forum is about sport sedans, last time I checked.

"#3 SH-AWD enhances handling, not dimishes it."

Not in a SPORT SEDAN, as far as I'm concerned.

"However with the RDX, it outshines the X3 in handling."

Come on Rocky, let's not go through this again. You keep getting in trouble repeating some advertising claim or what an "Acura spokesmouth" tells you.

"BMW, has never made a car that could handle quite like the Dodge Stealth."

Thank God for that. I actually considered the Mitsubishi 3000GT VR4 back in the mid 1990's. At 3,800 lbs, it was about as un-nimble as one could get. I came to my senses and bought a Nissan Maxima that weighed nearly a HALF TON LESS. And then bought a real sports car (Honda S2000) when I could afford to. The Stealth/3000GT were bloated pigs back then, don't start romanticizing about the past in addition to speculating about the future.

louiswei · October 2006

BMW, has never made a car that could handle quite like the Dodge Stealth

Please tell me that above sentence is a joke. A Mitsu 3000GT is already bad enough neverthless a Dodge one. You are giving me goose bumps here, Rocky.

A buddy of mine (also my college roommate) has gone from 3000GT to 330ci to most recently Boxster S. He and I both agreed that the handling between 3000GT and the 330ci is like night and day. However, I've never got a chance to drive his Boxster S but he told me it's an improvement from the Bimmer but the difference is no where near the 3000GT/330ci gap.

pat · October 2006

...we could stick to the true Entry-Level Performance Sedans? Several people have asked that we do that, so let's give it a shot!

BTW, I don't know how the A4 got lost from the list, but I put it back.

kdshapiro · October 2006

In deference to Pat's request, slightly /ot for one second. The Boxster S unless I'm mistaken, is a mid-engine two seater. Comparing the handling to a 4 seater coupe is not quite apples to apples.

louiswei · October 2006

Agreed. It's not fair to compare the handling between Boxster S and 3 coupe. Not just that, the price difference between the 2 also makes them un-comparable. My intention from the previous post is to point out how horrible the 3000GT handles compare to the Bimmer nevertheless the Dodge Stealth.

robertr · October 2006

I saw an large ad in the Wall Street Journal the other day for a Buick Lucerne. According to the ad copy, it's a competitor for the Lexus ES350, Acura TL, and Infiniti G35. Apparently because it has a "Northstar V-8". I couldn't believe it - I'm sure it doesn't come in anything except FWD automatic, so maybe the ES350 and TL are targets, but G35? At least they didn't mention BMW.

dandrews1 · October 2006

My wife and I went to have a quick lookey at it when they first started showing up on the roads... never got to drive it, so I have no idea how it handles or accelerates.

All I can speak to is how it looked.

Aside from some cursory BMW 7-series aspirations, I found it rather boring. After you get past the really cool air vents on the side of the bonnet, a la Maserati quattroporte, the rest of the vehicle is kind of ho-hum.

I would not feel like a geezer driving any of it's stated competitors (Acura TL, Lexus ES350, Infiniti G35), but I would feel like a geezer driving this.

The seams between panels are the closest I have seem on any NA car, and the build quality looks well above GM normal.

However, it has two major things going against it:

1. It's still a GM - which means it has to be maintained by GM dealers, who I have had extremely bad experiences with in the past (tried all in a 50Km radius from where I live and got bad service everywhere)
2. It has a boring design. It's a warmed over Century, with some angles reminding me of the Acura, but it doesn't look 'right'. The interior is plain, and uninspired.

If GM / Buick wants me to buy this car, they have to have more wow-factor. This car is definitely a step in the right direction, and I hope that they do well with it. I fear if nobody buys it, GM will not continue in the same vein, and go back to old habits. It may be too late to save the sinking ship now, though.

As always, just my own 2c worth..

/DA

louiswei · October 2006

Wow, we have gone from M5, M3 and CTS-V to Dodge Stealth and now to Buick Lucerne. How low can we go in this forum guys? Maybe the next one up is the Impala SS since it has enough HP to compete with cars in this segment anyway...

:sick:

mariner7 · October 2006

RL, will have a V-10 by then from what I read

(cough)bullsh...

Acura and Lexus were going to leverage its F1 v10 engines. But F1 only allows v8 now, so I doubt we're going to see v10 from anyone.

BTW, Honda and Toyota bring up the rear in F1 now, so why they'd want to advertise their failures is beyond me.

edwardsf · October 2006

The following is from fueleconomy.gov. Most drivers here and the auto mags get about 20% worse MPG across the board. This compares the 2006 6 cylinder manuals.
BMW 330ci 20/30 Avg. 24
Cadillac CTS 17/26 Avg. 19

17 in the city is pretty bad but not too much worse than the G35, C320 and A4 6. Also, the Cadillac is a nasty polluter both in terms of climate change forming pollutants. (Their 8 cylinder engines are much worse of course). GM has been a laggard in efficient fuel saving technology for all but its cheap bottom of the line cars. BMW and Acura are pretty unusual in giving such great 6 cylinder MPG in fast cars.

BMW 3 series seem to have two problems. One is reliability, although many 3 series years are average. The only real problem then, is the stigma from the apparent truth that a lot of jerks drive these cars. (Although Expedition and Land Rover drivers seem to top them). Too bad as BMWs are great handling, efficient, fast, good looking cars.

ggesq · October 2006

"Maybe the next one up is the Impala SS since it has enough HP to compete with cars in this segment anyway... "

Uh oh----priggly should be joining us soon

kdshapiro · October 2006

"The only real problem then.."

Those aren't problems, they are preconceived notions. I find Lexus LS and Hummer drivers to be worse than BMW drivers. But we probably shouldn't go there. :sick

jsavaitch · October 2006

Curious on suggestions: I've got just over $500 to spend on a lease and I'd like to get somethng fully loaded (incl. NAV).

A42.0 or 328xi?

navboy · October 2006

The 2007 G35 will have a hard-drive based navigation system with robust voice recognition, optional navtraffic, and lane-guidance which shows you which exact lane to be in on freeway interchanges and exits. It has an audio system which features a Burr-Brown converter, a hard disc drive which stores 150 hours of music, and a flash-memory card reader. One can control the radio (and the air system) with voice commands. The G35 also has a backup camera with superimposed guidance lines, which can predict the automobile's path. The dashboard technology in the 2007 G35 is more advanced than that in the M45.

The 2007 BMW 335 has an i-drive based navigation sytem, limited voice recognition, and a trunk-mounted 6-disc CD changer.

From the perspective of a discerning professional who appreciates advanced technology, I think the G35 makes the 335 look like doo.

kdshapiro · October 2006

"From the perspective of a discerning professional who appreciates advanced technology, I think the G35 makes the 335 look like doo."

For a navigation system, I use my phone, VZNAV. As far as BMW technology it's in the car, engine, chassis and suspension. I for one, (and I guess other people who buy BMW), would rather listen to the sound of the engine, than talk to the car.

So one could come to the same conclusion as you... from the perspective of a discerning professional who appreciates advanced technology where it counts, I think the 335 makes the G35 look like.....

navboy · October 2006

I am looking for a vehicle with a smooth, quiet ride - a ride in which every lump and dip in the pavement is not translated into jouncing under one's behind. In comparing the Infiniti G35 and the base BMW 335, which do you feel has the smoothest ride? Are there an lux import cars (other than lexus) which have a smoother ride?

By smooth ride, I mean less rigid and stiff; less likely to produce hammering and jolting while driving over uneven pavement.

dhamilton · October 2006

mercedes, acura tl

nyccarguy · October 2006

"I don't personally know any BMW owners who would call their cars reliable or well-made."

My Dad has an '04 X5 3.0iA SP with about 56,000 miles on it. It has never once gone in for service besides the 3 times for scheduled maintenance. The last time he brought it in, they fixed the rear hatch that popped open a few times & replaced the head unit because the 1st 2 buttons started to wear down.

My Mom has an '05 530iA with a little over 30K miles on it That has needed nothing but scheduled maintenance so far. I've actually considered buying the car when the lease is up next December. But the idea of owning an iDrive equipped BMW out of warranty scares me.

blueguydotcom · October 2006

Uh, some of us wouldn't get the navi, back up camera or a trunk-mounted/dash mounted hard drive. No thanks. i have an ipod. That's all I need.

blueguydotcom · October 2006

A non-sport 325 is just plain mushy and nauseating for me to ride in, while the G35 (2006 and before) had a firmer, more enjoyable drive. True be told, I feel a little physically ill riding in a 325 with 17s and the sport package - it's too freaking soft. Non-sport bimmers make me feel even more ill.

You can only imagine how delighted I am to get GMs and other marshmallowy cars as rentals all the time. Ugh.

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