Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

louiswei · October 2006

am looking for a vehicle with a smooth, quiet ride

Dude, if that's what you are looking for then I'll have to say that you are looking at cars in the wrong segment then. Maybe you should check out the ES350 or MB C-class. An Acura TL should probably do it for you as well but some would argue that the IS350 has a softer right than the TL.

It is funny that you said you want a smooth and quiet ride but at the same time the 2 vehicles that you are comparing have the least smooth and quiet ride within the class.

habitat1 · October 2006

Why are you looking for advice in the luxury PERFORMANCE sedan forum for the smoothest possible ride?

Kind of like going into a French bakery looking for the lowest calorie breakfast. Get a Lexus ES or Toyota Avalon. Add pillows on the drivers seat.

quasiactuary · October 2006

I might ask this question in one of the BMW threads, but thought I might get a more balanced response here. I am very smitten with the 2007 328/335i coupes. In the past I have stayed away from BMW's because a) they aren't as reliable as many cars, and b) I tend to keep cars a few years past the warranty period. I'm not saying that I think BMW 3-series cars are terrible from a reliability standpoint, just that they seem to be either at or slightly below "average" reliability and I am used to owning japanese cars that are generally rated well above "average".

I agree with nyccarguy in that I am scared of owning a BMW with iDrive out of warranty. I know that at least one of the BMW faithful on these boards has stated that he only leases BMW's for a similar reason.

Would an extended warranty make you guys comfortable with owning a BMW longer-term? Or is the issue more that routine maintenance is also very expensive and that is only covered for the first 4 years regardless of extended warranties?

kdshapiro · October 2006

Tough question. You're talking to a person who buys extended maintainence on reliable Japanese products. I would get the extended maintenance agreement on a BMW also.

I would also not use the three of four opinions here as a benchmark for the reliability of any manufacturer.

Repairing a Lexus and BMW for a similiar problem will have similiar costs. Estimating a brake job on a 4year old 335 vs a 4 year old Corolla, will obviously have very different costs associated with it. If you believe the extended warranty will cover the areas prone to failure the extended warranty is a good deal.

circlew · October 2006

quasiactuary,

I really love the new coupes also. I leased an '06 330xi last December. As in very nameplate, the cars improve each year but also get more complex, ergo, warrantee gets more valuable as we move through the years.

I would definatly get extended warrantee to cover ownership for any of the higher cost cars. They are expensive, however. If you calculate the cost of extended warrantee over an additional 4 year period and add in the routine stuff not covered, I'll extimate $100/month is fair guess over the period.

You pay more to lease but do not pay extra for the maintenance since you trade before warrantee expiration. If you buy the car, you need to keep it at least 6 years to be ahead of the lease on average. But if you get a major problem without coverage, the pendulum swings the other way.

I always purchased but changed to the lease option exactly because of this. Also, I know I pay more (depending on miles driven) but I do not worry about major issues and the BMW warrantee is top shelf. Then at the end, the fun is choosing a "new and improved" model.

Have fun and hope you get the car you enjoy and best of luck.

blueguydotcom · October 2006

You pay more to lease but do not pay extra for the maintenance since you trade before warrantee expiration....

I always purchased but changed to the lease option exactly because of this. Also, I know I pay more (depending on miles driven)

Are we talking crazy high miles? Because 15k lease is far cheaper than the actual depreciation hit a 3 series takes. My last BMW lease saved me at least 2500 compared to the cost of selling the car after 3 years of ownership.

captain2 · October 2006

entry level luxury performance sedan? Don't know that you can classify 'entry' without also talking price - is 50k+ for a 530, E350, or a GS meet all defintions of what most folks consider a 'luxury sports sedan' sure -- entry level not for most folks. Is even the small 330 pushing the price envelope. Probably. So really what you are left with are a few suitably powered FWD cars and a notable exception, the G35. And then, the dilemma, how can any car with 60% or more of its weight over its drive wheels be a true performance car. Acura has tried hard with the TL, ending up with ride sacrifices while still not eliminating the understeer endemic to the weight imbalance and the torque steer common to many well powered FWD sedans. Ditto for things like Maximas, Impala SS/GP.
For my part, ending up with an Avalon Touring after shopping both the TL and G35, the Avalon and TL both at about 30k the G35 a few thousand more. The G35 definitely the only one that I would define as a performance car, it is a hoot to drive but at the price of the fit/finish and luxury levels found in the TL/Avalon. The TL, a muuch rougher ride - the Avalon the surprise I didn't anticipate - a car that will run with either of the other two (until the road gets really curvy), much larger and more comfortable, trading off some of that 'handling' for a far better ride. The Touring model definitely the trim line of choice, more tightly sprung and perhaps a little more 'fun'. Not sure though that 6 second 0-60 or 100 mph quarters necessarily makes it a 'performance' sedan though - don't think that is possible in a FWD car.

kdshapiro · October 2006

The TL rougher than the G35? I disagree. But it goes to show you have the drive the cars yourself and not rely on someone elses opinion. I'm glad you like the Avalon, it is way too big for my taste. And you hit the nail on the head with the disclaimer...once you hit the curves. Lots of cars do well in a straight line.

You are on target on price. Is350 the same as the 335, TL coming in at about $34, with the base G35 at $30Kish. Of course no one will ever get a base G35.

jrock65 · October 2006

The 2007 G35 base is actually pretty decently equipped. Comes standard with automatic, leather, HID, keyless start, metallic paint, and 7" LCD information screen. All for about $32,000 probably.

Add automatic, leather, keyless start, and metallic paint to the 335i sedan, and you're already looking at $43,100.

captain2 · October 2006

my purchase in the spring of 05 - both the TL and the G35 were hot sellers, the TL with maybe a 6-7% discount, the G35 about the same, the Avalon which I knew nothing about wasn't even on dealer lots yet and selling closer to sticker. Curse for those of us that end up wanting finer cars - demand has a way of keeping prices closer to sticker - could have gone to any of those 'Detroit' brands and gotten one of those 538%

discounts. Anyway the TL was the car I thought I wanted and was going to be about 30k no nav, the G35 to bring in up to the TL level needed a 3500.00 option package, the Avalon also 30k simlarily equipped to the TL. Can understand the comment about size, the Avalon certainly has a lot of that, the power and FE to boot, but a sports sedan it ain't. G35 certainly qualifies, my contention that it is the only truly 'entry level' sports sedan currently available unless you want to consider throw things like the Evo/WRX into the mix, but then I guess where is the 'luxury'.

pg48477 · October 2006

Here is my experience with BMWs, I never had a problem with my 3 and so as my two friends, one of them also owned 525 and it was also trouble free. My other friend hase 530 and its in the shop once a month, he is a big BMW freak and would get another one, no questions ask. So, I would say if it breaks few times in the first year or so; youll have problems with this car and if reliability is a big issue for you, you will not be happy. On the other hand if the car has no problems in the beginning, you should not have any issues in the future.

P.S. 3 is the most reliable out of all BMWs, I would be comfortable with owning one.

pg48477 · October 2006

I agree with others, IS350 or ES350 will make a perfect choice for soft ride, I did not find TL to be soft in comparison. However, if your hart is set on only two G35 and 335, I would say that 335 is softer and more enjoyable then G35. There is something in suspension setup that none of the competitors were able to replicate. While 3 is a better handler then G it also feels better on the bumpy road, I would not say its softer but defiantly not as bumpy as G. Actually, I just read article in Motor Trend and they confirmed my findings. Id say that G35 has the least comfortable ride in this segment.

pg48477 · October 2006

How did you figured that?

blueguydotcom · October 2006

How did I figure it?

Pretty simple math:

330i - MSRP of 43k. I negotiated a sale price of 39.9k. If I bought the car that'd be 44k out the door.

My lease was 485 a month for 36 months, for a total of 17.4k.

At lease return my model was selling for 24k but the residual was 24.6k. That's a 19.6k hit.

I see a $2200 difference there (not including loan interest if I didn't buy the BMW for cash).

pg48477 · October 2006

Still dont get why you use 44k as price if you buy and 39.9 if you lease. Taxes aside and lets say the selling price after 3 years is 24, would make the difference of 15.9 (39.9-24). To make it fair you should use the same selling price for both lease and buy. At the end of the day, lease is more due to interest, all things being equal.

P.S. I too prefer to lease but found it more expensive then buying for cash and then trading the car in for a new one.

blueguydotcom · October 2006

Still dont get why you use 44k as price if you buy and 39.9 if you lease.

If buy you pay taxes. If you lease you pay taxes on the portion you use. So, when I compare the two options, taxes play a huge role. Buy the car, you're down 44k, lease the car and you pay only taxes on the portion you use.

Taxes aside and lets say the selling price after 3 years is 24, would make the difference of 15.9 (39.9-24).

No. You have to pay the taxes. No way around it. Not sure what planet you're on but if you buy a 40k car, you're paying those taxes up-front.

P.S. I too prefer to lease but found it more expensive then buying for cash and then trading the car in for a new one.

no way. If you negotiate a crappy lease, sure. But given BMW's propped up leasing model, I come out ahead easily on leasing. BMW overvalues their cars residuals and usually gives you a decent MF. Bimmers lose about 20% of their value in year 1 - taxes included because you can't avoid paying them on a purchase.

Secondly, trading in a car you lose even more. That's giving thousands away. Trading-in a car you're talking about another 2-3k difference in price from private-party resale. Trade-in value of my 03 330i was hovering in the low 20s. I woulda taken a bath: as will any person who trades-in a late-model car to a dealership.

pg48477 · October 2006

Well, I guess we are on two different planets. If you trade in your car you only pay tax on the difference, therefore the tax you overpaid on the first purchase will go back to you after the trade in. Second, the residual value after 3 year lease is very close to trade in, for BMW that is. And please dont quote me KBB or Edmunds as they are not even close on some models and makes. I spend my share on dealers auctions and I can assure you BMW in a good condition will bring good money. I can see you are very passionate about leasing and ED, there is no need to get upset if you perfect deal is not so perfect. Just go back to planet EarthJ

Again, if you lease you always pay more, at lease the money factor if you are good negotiator.

captain2 · October 2006

you point out a few of the reasons why leasing a car is very rarely if ever reflective of the actual price paid. Other factors that allow for an 'apparently' good price include finance charge buydowns, something relatively new called 'market equalization' fees, adjsutable mileage allowances and fees, residual adjustments relative to the anticipated 'damages' done to the car at lease end. There is a reason why dealers prefer leasing - it is easier for them to get approved and much more profitable for them. Not to mention all those low mileage 'program' cars they get back to make even more of a killing on!
Could never understand the logic of leasing unless, of course, you really don't drive much or really want a new car every 3 years or so. Many of my friends have cars on leases and will usually brag about that fictious lease 'sales' price, and then find halfway thru the lease or so that they can't use the car nearly as much as they want to, and ultimately are hit with mileage and/or damage chargebacks at lease end that forces the refinance of the residual on an actual purchase for several thousand more than what the car is really worth. Or is all rolled into another lease - a self-perpetuating problem, that sooner or later, has to be bought out of.
In any event, although a good lease can minimize your monthly out-of-pocket, it will never be cheaper than an actual purchase, and a cash price remains really the only way to determine a car's actual sell price. And you are right, the only thing that dealers like better than late model trades is the service depts. - this is where they really make their money.

pg48477 · October 2006

Just one more point, in case of the lease bank owns the car not the dealer. In most cases the BANK will sell the car on the dealers auction, the price they get will eventually make up residual % you get at the purchase. So, in real life residual value equals the price on the dealers auction (or in other words trade in). In case of BMW bank, they usually charge low money factor, therefore their residuals are very accurate, otherwise theyll lose money, and trust me BANK will never loose their money.

Not replying directly to you captain2, just continuing the trail.

jtla · October 2006

Also not replying to you, pg48477, just continuing this thread.

The true financial advantage on leasing comes from, as blueguydotcom pointed out, the saving on sales tax. Unfortunately, even this saving is often largely offset by the so-called acquisition fee ($600-$900) up front and termination fee ($350 to $600) at lease end. In some States, sales tax is levied on the selling price of the vehicle.

Leasing can be a better deal than purchasing only when there is factory subsidy that is not available/applicable to purchase (for example, artificially high residual). Otherwise, lease is almost always more expensive than purchase. The reason is plain and simple: no dealer or bank would share with you the cost of ownership of a vehicle.

mikefm58 · October 2006

One more note here on this, where leasing is a definite advantage is if the vehicle is used as part of a business, such as a realtor or other sales person. There are distinct tax advantages of leasing versus an outright purchase for commercial vehicles.

But for individuals, leasing is "virtually 100%" more expensive in the long run over a purchase.

circlew · October 2006

I agree that lease is cheaper than the depreciation hit in re-sale value. My lease is 12,000 miles/3yrs. and will probably go for $800 for extra miles 4 months before lease end. The extra cost for lease vs. buy is because you need to lease twice vs. buying and keeping 6 years.

If you buy and keep the car over 6 years, you probably are flirting with 100K so depreciation levels out in the later years but basically the maintenance/repair costs increase fast. The resale is low and hit is high vs. original cost.

The savings in buying comes after year 6 but the car is basically getting tired in at least some major drive train parts. But if the car stays sound, you start saving in repair costs.

rockylee · October 2006

I bet they are getting near retail for the 335i, right ?

Rocky

captain2 · October 2006

If you buy and keep the car over 6 years, you probably are flirting with 100K so depreciation levels out in the later years but basically the maintenance/repair costs increase fast. The resale is low and hit is high vs. original cost
any car these days should have minimal maintanence costs at 6 yrs/72000 miles, if that is the assumption on miles driven and length of loan. Unless, of course, you are driving something like a BMW or MB, which owners should trade off before the warranty/free service periods expire.
A friend had an older 328 (before BMW had to offer their service program). Nothing really wrong with the car, took it in for the 40000 mile 'scheduled' service and got it back $2300.00 later - absurd - since when do 'simple' brake jobs cost $1200.00 and 'simple' tuneups $600.00! Although the German cars do maintain high values used, the gross dollar hit is ludricrous compared with most of the 'Japanese' makes - the reason why the lease rates tend to be much higher. But, in any case - most of the real money saved by purchasing is actually realized after the vehicle is paid off, so that from a financial standpoint it does make sense to accelerate that process as much as possible, even if your monthly bill is doubled.

blueguydotcom · October 2006

Well, I guess we are on two different planets. If you trade in your car you only pay tax on the difference, therefore the tax you overpaid on the first purchase will go back to you after the trade in.

That's dependent on state. In CA your trade-in does not count for squat on taxes. Trade in a 40k car for a 40k car and you're still down 4k on taxes.

Second, the residual value after 3 year lease is very close to trade in, for BMW that is.

I've owned a couple BMWs now. There's a pervasive myth they don't lose much value.

And please dont quote me KBB or Edmunds as they are not even close on some models and makes. I spend my share on dealers auctions and I can assure you BMW in a good condition will bring good money.

Not from what I see. BMWs lose insane amounts of value quickly. After year 3, like everything else, the slide slows.

Again, if you lease you always pay more, at lease the money factor if you are good negotiator.

Babble that's just ignorant. I've proven you wrong already... you're talking but not making any sense. You're using terms like "always" and yet you don't seem to understand them. My last lease, I saved thousands leasing. Expressly because the car took a huge hit on depreciation and the tax savings.

blueguydotcom · October 2006

bet they are getting near retail for the 335i, right ?

Check the bimmer boards. People have been getting over-invoice deals on the 335i already. BMWs are a commodity, just like a Honda Fit. Massive competition - essentially anyone paying MSRP for one is getting taken for a ride.

louiswei · October 2006

This may not meant much but according to Edmunds...

2007 BMW 335i (zip code: 30360, Metro Atlanta):

MSRP: $41295 (including $695 destination charge)
TMV: $41295

So yes, apparently for right now the new 3-coupe is selling around the sticker.

I know people like blueguydotcom will come back with the ED option which allows one to get one below invoice. However, I think with the ED, one should also take the airplane ticket, hotel cost, and any misc cost into consideration. I am pretty sure that if one can get a good deal on the ticket and hotel the overall cost should still come below the non-ED price but it would not be that significant.

It's not that people are lazy to pick up their cars in Europe. However, I don't like the idea that I have to wait 3 month (or is it 6?) for my car to arrive after I picked it up. Also, a trip to Europe is just not as attractive to me comparing to a trip to China or Taiwan. But that's just me.

blueguydotcom · October 2006

Even without ED you can get them for a bit over invoice. People are really myopic about saving some dough. Say you're in some po-dunk fly-over-state and the one BMW dealership won't budge on price. Check bimmer boards and find a large city nearby that does have competition. some email blasting will nail down deals quickly. Hop a JetBlue, Ted, SWA flight after you do the deal online/over-the-phone and pick up your car for a quick drive back. If that'll get you a BMW at $500-1000 over invoice v. MRP, that's worth it.

Living in socal we've got BMW dealerships on all over. There's so much competition that a car like the 335i starts getting negotiated prices below MSRP before they're ever delivered.

louiswei · October 2006

Oh, blueguy, I am pretty sure the 335i are flying out of the dealer lot with price below MSRP. Like I said, usually the Edmunds' TMVs are off for some reason. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that the 335i are selling for about $1000 under MSRP. I know for people like you that's not that great of a deal but compare to many suckers whom are paying MSRP that's not that bad at all - especially for a hot car like 335i.

I agree with you on that if people truly want to land a great deal they should shop around the coutry. When I bought my IS350 back in April I found out that I can get probably another $1000 to $1500 off the deal I got in Atlanta if I buy it from dealers in Cali. However, with the school and many interviews lining up back them, a trip to Cali to pick up the car just seems not logical to me. Also, since I was planning to finance my car for at least 4 years, $1000 difference (about 20 dollars per month) is just not that significant after all. The bottom line is: would I want to get a better deal than the one I got ($1500 off MSRP)? Yes. But after taking everything into consideration, it seems more reasonable for me to buy it from my local dealership.

habitat1 · October 2006

Two comments:

(1) I agree that you need to draw the value line somewhere when it comes to saving money. My business partner, with a net worth in the solid 8 figure range, considered importing a Honda Accord from Canada a few years ago to save an extra $1,000 on the exchange rate. Needless to say, he's a great lawyer and investor in our company, but I handle the financial decisions. That example aside, I have found it unnecessary to go accross country or outside the country to do a little arbitrage bargaining.

(2) Leasing vs. Buying: blueguydotcom may be an exception, but I always seem to have the strongest negotiating position when I can write a check for an in-stock car and dare the dealer to rip it up. Edmunds TMV on my 2002 S2000 was $36,000 (yes, $3,200 over MSRP). The Saturday before Thanksgiving in 2001, I walked out with one for $32k even. The discount on my 2005 911S Cab was even more substantial. At one year and 10,000 miles, I could sell it for, at worst, $8-9,000 less than I paid for it (about 50% of what the annual lease payments would be). I am in a lucky state that recognizes trade in values on taxes. I am of the general opinion that when you introduce another party to a transaction - i.e. a leasing company or financial institution - they need to make money to stay in business. If, in fact, they have a cost of capital that is significantly below mine, they might be able to do that and still offer me some value in return. But, for a lot of people, that internal cost of capital could be a 6%-7% home equity loan, with the interest being tax deductible. That's hard to beat.

blueguydotcom · October 2006

Habitat, dealers make less money if you pay cash for a car. It's actually a better deal for them to sell the car lower and get you on their financing. The bank pays them back instantly and they get a cut of the finance rate.

Actually had a dealership tell me straight up if I financed through them and then paid off the loan instantly they'd sell me the car at a lower price. Weird but true.

I totally agree that quite often leasing for the short-term buyer quite often really isn't a great deal without a tax deduction. But there are exceptions.

pmvi · October 2006

Check the bimmer boards.

What bmw board(s) would you recommend?

It will be interesting to see when people start modding the 335. That's one of the beauties of turbo engines! I must admit I would be a bit leery of chipping a BMW--at least if the electrical issues I keep hearing about are true, and especially in a 1st year model which typically get new mappings in subsequent years (which can over-ride the mods)

pg48477 · October 2006

That's dependent on state. In CA your trade-in does not count for squat on taxes. Trade in a 40k car for a 40k car and you're still down 4k on taxes.

I was not aware of that, I live in NY and we only pay tax on the difference of the selling price and trade in. You might want to elect a new governor next time around, this is rip-off.

I've owned a couple BMWs now. There's a pervasive myth they don't lose much value. Not from what I see. BMWs lose insane amounts of value quickly. After year 3, like everything else, the slide slows.

Im telling you how it is in NY, CA may be different. Still dont get where you getting this from, do you have the data to support your argument , or is it coming from personal experience?

Babble that's just ignorant. I've proven you wrong already... you're talking but not making any sense. You're using terms like "always" and yet you don't seem to understand them. My last lease, I saved thousands leasing. Expressly because the car took a huge hit on depreciation and the tax savings.

I guess you did not read my post or decided to ignore it. Your $2000, so called savings came form $4000 tax, which would not be the case here in NY. How should I know that you getting ripped-off on taxes in CA?
Im telling you again depreciation is generally in line with residual for BMW. I find it strange that you are so good in negotiating buying price for a new vehicle, but can not negotiate good selling price for vehicle you are selling.

rockylee · October 2006

While I agree with you on the leasing vs. cash deal one thing you left out was the accumulated interest one would pay through out the loan.

Rocky

blueguydotcom · October 2006

I was working off a lease v. cash model. You are correct, if you take out a loan the numbers change even more.

rockylee · October 2006

okay, I do respect your negotiating tactics on cars.

Rocky

habitat1 · October 2006

"dealers make less money if you pay cash for a car. It's actually a better deal for them to sell the car lower and get you on their financing. The bank pays them back instantly and they get a cut of the finance rate....Actually had a dealership tell me straight up if I financed through them and then paid off the loan instantly they'd sell me the car at a lower price."

Replay what you are saying. If the dealer makes MORE money if a buyer finances a car, that must mean the buyer is paying so much in financing costs as to allow the fiancing company to give a kickback to the dealer. And I agree, that may be the case. But when my cost of funds is under 4% after tax, I sure as hell am not going to pay 8%+ on a car loan or a lease money factor that translates to that kind of interest rate.

I haven't tried the idea of financing a car so the dealer gets his cut up front and then paying the loan off immediately thereafter. But I suspect the financing company would get wise to this tactic pretty quickly and put the kabosh on it. Or have a substantial pre-payment penalty / loan fee to the buyer to cover the kickback.

It's pretty simple, really. There is only one source of revenue in this equation - you the buyer. How many businesses do you want to support with your revenues? I don't even deal with sales people any more and, surprise, always get a better deal directly from the sale manager by cutting out that middle person.

Again, I think we agree there are particular circumstances in which you can game the system to your advantage. I wouldn't mind sticking it to a finance company if it didn't cost me anything and the dealer gave me a piece of their kickback. But the payoff needs to be good enough or the free cocktails strong enough for me to spend a couple of hours with finance guy that probably struggled through high school math.

esfoad · October 2006

Be careful when dealing with the Sales Manager. My brother-in-law was a car salesman and says that the customer could almost always get a better deal from a salesman rather than the Manager because the salesman is usually hungrier for the sale. Remember, always be careful that you are getting treated the way you expect to be.

cdnpinhead · October 2006

The dealer assumes (correctly) that a huge percentage of the people he finances will run the contract to completion or trade the car (& the note) in, upside down. So does the bank or finance organization that pays him to use them.

Unlike you, I have financed cars at the dealer, only to pay off the note a few months later. He wins, I win & the (stinkin') bank loses. Boo hoo. I always ask if (& read the fine print to verify) there's any pre-payment penalty. Anyone remember the rule of 78?

I paid straight cash for the car I drive now, but got a better deal on my wife's (newer) vehicle by financing it (for a short time) through the dealer's bank.

ontop · October 2006

Anyone remember the rule of 78

Wow - if you need to finance a car thru a lender that's precomputing (front loading) interest (probably illegal now) then you probably are in deep ship financially.

And BTW, banks RARELY lose. They work with the golden rule. He that has the gold rules. As it should be....

blueguydotcom · October 2006

Almost every car dealership adds points to a loan that's not through a manufacturer. AFAIK it's standard practice.

pearl · October 2006

re the "I don't know any BMW owners who think their cars are reliable" - Baloney - you ought to get out more. Yours truly has a 97 E39 that has over 152k on the clock. It has had routine maintenance, plus some power steering hoses replaced, a fan belt tensioner, and a manual transmission seal replaced. Yes, I expect some things may "go up" on this 10+ year old baby now (clutch is a little dicey but not yet ready to chuck); however, mine is NOT the only such story. Plenty of BMW owners will tell you that theirs is the MOST reliable car they have ever owned. And in any case, tell us about your Lexus with no problems that drives like a pig, and BMW owners will tell you about driving.

blueguydotcom · October 2006

I know 10 people with BMWs - presently. sure that's not a scientific study but it's a pretty good representation of folks with 3 series to 7 series cars. Given my experience with 2 BMWs and that of every person I know personally, I feel extremely safe saying BMW are not well made. That won't stop me from getting BMWs...it will simply ensure I only lease them.

And in any case, tell us about your Lexus with no problems that drives like a pig, and BMW owners will tell you about driving.

I have a 2006 e90 330i right now. The brakes grind. The AC stops working. The comfort access works intermittenly.

My 03 330i had a laundry list of problems and some BMW could never fix. Don't patronize me like I'm some kid off the street who has never been around a BMW.

I know exactly one guy who swears by one of his BMWs - an e30 352. His e39 540 on the otherhand has cost him thousands upon thousands for tranny, electrical and brake work.

rockylee · October 2006

habitat, agree with your post pal. I've had salesmen, refuse to help me out with "after sale work" because I wanted to go directly to the salesmanger. What I mean by "after sale work", is going over the cars features. Thankfully, I'm a self study and know how most of the stuff works anyways from reading "literature" about them in magazines and other sources.

In my experience going to the salesmanger has saved me hours of time that I could be out spending with my new ride, instead of watching the salesmen ice me with the back n' forth tatic.

Rocky

rockylee · October 2006

The Volkswagon Passat. All the reviews I've read remarked at how Rock-Solid they are. I like the interior and exterior. It's ashame the "W" engine went away. Didn't they have some very severe customer service issues ? Would of liked to seen a Turbocharged "W" engine version.

The new car though has decent performance. Wish ya could get a stick and a bit more power in a high performance version. Perhaps in the near future ? Didn't this car lack pwr seats or something which was a major gripe ?
(off my memory)

Rocky

louiswei · October 2006

an entry lux performance sedan.

I know a loaded Passat can well be as nicely equipped as any cars that we discuss here but it just doesn't belong in this group because:

1. VW is not a lux brand
2. A little lacking on the performance side

If we are to add Passat into the discussion we might as well add the followings too:

Honda Accord V6 Manual
Subura Legacy

kdshapiro · October 2006

And then you might as well add in the TSX, althought that is a little lacking on the "P" side as well.

rockylee · October 2006

I disagree with you on this one pal. "What else is new" :P J/K

You honestly don't look at VW as a entry lux-brand like lets say a Acura ? :surprise:

I will be honest and say I'm a lil' bit surprised some would say that. :surprise: I guess when you see the wood interiors and the 3.6 putting out 280 hp. with zero to sixty in 5.9 secs. I guess I'd ask the question of what is a entry performance lux-sedan ? :confuse: I guess I look at VW, as a more upscale car than a Accord or Subaru. The Spec B one could argue belongs couldn't they ???

So this isn't a luxury performance car either ? :surprise:

http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?car_id=208060148&dealer_id=593623&car_year- =2005&search_type=both&num_records=25&make=VOLKS&transmission=&model=PHAETON&dis- tance=0&make2=&address=79029&advanced=&certified=&max_mileage=&max_price=&bkms=1- 160567820950&sort_type=priceDESC&min_price=&body_code=0&end_year=2007&color=&sta- rt_year=1981&drive=&engine=&fuel=&doors=&style_flag=1&cardist=864

Rocky

mz6greyghost · October 2006

And then you might as well add in the TSX, althought that is a little lacking on the "P" side as well.

A "little"? That's an understatement...

rockylee · October 2006

Lets not push it ! :P

LOL

Rocky

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