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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Night and day difference.

    Ride quality has improved greatly. The car's chassis is not upset by imperfections in the road and cacaphonous thudding that used to come through the cockpit from simple things like bots dots has now been muted.

    The responsive nature of the car is far closer to my e46 ZHP. I move the wheel and the car reacts instantly. The e90's slow-to-respond dynamics have been erased.

    Handling improved greatly. Suddenly corners come and go without any fuss. No more feeling the cruddy runflat tires flexing and bending in corners. no more muted feel through corners - you can now feel what the tires are doing. Most importantly, hitting a pavement junction or a dip at twice the speed limit no longer causes the car to skip sideways. It's a godsend to feel the road and yet not fear the hopping/skipping runflat tires create.

    I can't say what my mileage will be like but much lighter rolling stock should help.

    Additionally, the car just feels quicker and lighter on real tires.

    Best money I've spent on a car in a long time. RFTs suck.
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,498
    Thanks for this, Blue.

    At the moment, a 3-series is in my future & my plan has been to buy real tires for it as soon as it gets back to the U.S. (ED).

    My plan is vindicated.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • mariner7mariner7 Member Posts: 509
    Yeah, cramer, I'm just letting people know there are plenty of experienced, BMW-loving auto editors who think G35 is the equal, the only true challenger, to the 3 series. Here's another quote, from a Canadian publication:

    But based on what I was able to sample, this may well have been the best car I have driven all year.
  • dunde71dunde71 Member Posts: 33
    I am surprised now most of the upscale/near luxury sedans do not have a full size spare option. If one happens to do lot of long drives (which I do) and have a flat on the highway during a weekend then good luck finding an auto repair shop on a Sunday. Besides even on a weekday its a hassel getting off the highway and get it fixed. It screws up your plans. Its like an air bag .. hopefully the need does not arise to use it but if you get into an accident then it better be there.

    I have had a flat tire on the highway and I realized how handy the full size spare was. Replaced it and I was on my way.

    I looked at the Acura TL/RL, Lexus GS300/350, Infiniti M35 and none of them have a full-size spare option. Its hard for me to think of buying a 40K car and not having a full size spare ... which is something so basic. I do not understand why auto-makers are doing this. Any thoughts ???
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    What's the BMW controversy?

    For many their looks and idrive, however unfounded these concerns may be to you, they're real for a lot of folks.

    Mercedes' build quality has rebounded tremendously in the last couple of years, but the verdict on reliability is still out or lagging.

    M
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    "I do not understand why auto-makers are doing this. Any thoughts ???"

    One reason is the unidirectional tires and staggered F/R tire sizes. Take a 550i sport for example. The front tires can't be interchanged with the rear, and the left and right sides are not interchangible since the tire tread is specifically designed to rotate in one direction. So, if you wanted to adequately cover all potential flats, you'd need to carry 4 full size spares.

    Another reason is the increased size of wheels and tires. When that 550i starts wearing 18/19" wheels with 275 width rear tires, that makes the old spare wheel well in the trunk obsolete.

    What is unfortunate is that several cars really don't have the credentials to wear high performance low profile unidirectional tires on oversized rims, but do so simply to look more impressive. I haven't driven the new Lexus GS, but unless it's a dramatic departure form the previous model, this is NOT a performance sedan and does not have a suspension or chassis that requires high performance tires to tap the last bit of handling prowess. Frankly, it's a waste of good rubber.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    "Mercedes' build quality has rebounded tremendously in the last couple of years, but the verdict on reliability is still out or lagging."

    So would you recommend the new E320 Bluetec? I have a business associate who will be driving 30,000+ miles per year and asked my advice on something that he can have for 6-7 years (200k+ miles), with decent comfort and luxury, with decent fuel mileage and maintenance. My marketing director has a 2005 E320 CDI which she likes, but it has had more problems in two years than her former E300 Turbodiesel had in four years.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    JD Power shows average mechanical quality below average for the '06. My opinion is lease these cars rather than buy so you have coverage for the big ticket problems that could occur.

    I always wondered on the high appeal level of some cars yet quality is lacking based on historical trend.
  • dunde71dunde71 Member Posts: 33
    Thanks habitat1 for providing some insight into the unidirectional tires. However, I am looking at a full size spare (FSS) as a backup / practical option compared to a donut. Granted none of them (FSS or donut) is going to satisfy the unidirectional requirement. But its a much better option than driving at 50 mph for the rest of the trip with a donut. I dont think driving with a un-matched unidirectional FSS for say 300 miles will make any damage to the vehicle. Infact Toyota Camry had a FSS option till 06 model. In 07 its not there. And Camry is no performance or sports car. Seems like the manufacturers are getting rid of it. My 2001 bmw 325xi has FSS standard but now the new 325xi dont even come with any spare.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Got a Continental Mobility Kit (essentally the same thing as the BMW Mobility Kit in the M Models) and a cell phone. That'll do.

    I'll take the chance on a flat over living with the uncomfortable ride and compromised handling of runflats.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    I can't imagine the FWD Camry ever came with uni-directional or staggered size tires, hence the option of a FSS made sense. My point was that the newer performance RWD sports cars and sport sedans often come with uni-diretional and staggered tires. Run of the mill family sedans generally don't. At some point BMW switched to run flats, which almost nobody is particularly happy with.

    As far as running a unidirectional tire "backwards", that is a no-no for both safety concerns and tire wear, from what I've read. A couple of years ago, a friend had his wheels balanced on a 545i and they accidentally interchanged the left and right front tires. He noticed that the car did not steer as precisely and track as straight on the highway, but kept driving on it for about two months (2,500 miles). When he then started noticing loader than usual road noise, he took it back to the dealership, where they realized the mistake. They gave him two new tires, without any prodding by him. Turns out that the wear going "agianst the grain" is considerably greater than going with the grain.

    Unidirectional tires often have an arrow on the sidewall showing which direction they are supposed to roll. If you see that arrow and its pointing backwards, you could be headed for trouble.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    I can't remember if you said...

    What tires did you get (make, model, size, etc.)?
  • waygrabowwaygrabow Member Posts: 214
    Entry-Level Luxury Performance Sedans, what does it take to qualify. My wife drives an Audi A4 Quattro; which I think qualifies in this group. I recently purchased a Mazdaspeed6 for my personal use. With the 274 hp intercooled turbo direct injection engine, 6-speed MT,and AWD with limited-slip differential, electronic brake force distribution, dynamic stability control; I think it has the running gear. Is a Bose sound system, automatic climate control, heated seats, keyless ignition and available naviation system enough to qualify it as luxury? Or are there other essential features? When originally introduced, the Mazdspeed6 went for $28K-30K; currently about $23K-25K. Is the price too low? Does the Mazda label have the wrong cachet?

    I ask because I have been pondering this question myself. Whatever is said won't change what the car is. I like the way it handles; that is enough for me. Just wondering where a car like this fits in the scheme of things.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Have a look at the list of cars at the top of the page. I'd say the Mazdaspeed6 belongs more in the Midsize Sedans group.
  • dandrews1dandrews1 Member Posts: 184
    That being the case, and although marginally more elitist, I would debate the BMW 3 series, the Audi A4 and the Acura TL from being on the list as well.

    The 5 series is what I would call entry level from BMW; A6 and Acura RL as well (although I find most Acura's just warmed-over versions of Hondas with slightly nicer finishes - the RL even looks like a slightly larger Accord)... but like everything, it's a matter of personal opinion.

    /DA
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    I think we have been over this before but once again...

    Entry Lux performance sedan: A4, 3-series, C-class, IS, G and TL

    Midsize Lux performance sedan: A6, 5-series, E-class, GS, M and RL

    (Fullsize) Lux performance sedan: A8, 7-sereis, S-class, LS and Q

    I would put the Mazdaspeed6 and Passat in the midsize sedan category (same as Accord, Camry...) but sportier.
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    If you call the 5-series, A6 and RL "entry level", then what do you call the 3-series, A4, and TL/TSX? :confuse:
  • jramsey2jramsey2 Member Posts: 1
    But, have you driven the G35, 350i, or 328/335?

    Does anyone have first hand test drive experience? I'm in the market and would appreciate some input
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    With the MazdaSpeed6 one can make the case for the Legacy and Forester also. (The Forester also scoots to 60 in 5.3 seconds so it meets the performance side of the equation). Mazda/Subaru are not considered luxury vehicle manfacturers even though their vehicles might have leather seats. That would be the differentiating factor between Mazda and Infiniti for example.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,889
    I think its pretty easy. It has less to do with the car than the manufacturer.

    Audi/BMW/Benz/Acura/Lexus/Caddy/lincoln/Infiniti are all luxury nameplates. mazda/honda/toyota/VW/Chevy/Ford/Suzuki/Hyundai/Kia/etc/etc are not.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Maybe to many of y'all the interior is not a major factor in your purchasing decision but for some others (like me) it could as well be a dealer breaker or maker. So have that in mind, here are the interior shots of cars in this class...

    Acura TL:
    image

    Audi A4:
    image

    BMW 3-series:
    image

    Caddy CTS:
    image

    Infiniti G35:
    image

    Lexus IS:
    image

    MB C-class:
    image

    My personal favorite: Acura TL
    My personal least favorite: Caddy CTS
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Nice comparo! The interior is make-or-break for me as well. The MB appears the classiest to me. I've driven an 06 TL with a black interior and I liked that a lot. I'm not thrilled with the interior color shown here, though.

    The IS is pretty classy looking, too, IMO. I agree with you on the CTS :sick: .

    Great post.
  • waygrabowwaygrabow Member Posts: 214
    Thanks. Just wanted to clarify the criteria used to define this group.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,889
    that's kinda funny.

    JUST going by the pics alone, the MB looks the least inviting to me. The audi looks pretty bad, too. The red '80s looking displays HAVE to go, IMHO. I'd agree the CTS is down there, too, though.

    I'd have to say the Infiniti looks the best to me, followed by the Lexus, then Bimmer, then TL (the acura has a nice layout, but the seat doesn't "look" very comfy).

    Again, this is based purely on those pics.

    I was going to grab a pic of a volvo interior and post it to add to the comparison ... but the inside shots make it look HORRIBLE by comparison. If it weren't for the fact I know the volvo is so darned comfortable, I would say they don't even belong in this group.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    I liked the CTS. Pictures almost never do these interiors justice.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,889
    which i think is the problem with the volvo, too.

    One thing really hurting some of those above is that they aren't comparably loaded. The NAV screens go a long way towards the "oooh, aaahhh" factor, so the ones pictured above without NAV are at a distinct disadvantage, I believe.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Since the gauges are the most used (or looked at) items in a car, it should be interesting to see which one has the most attractive gauges...

    Acura TL:
    image

    Audi A4:
    image

    BMW 3-series:
    image

    Caddy CTS:
    image

    Infiniti G35:
    image

    Lexus IS:
    image

    MB C-class:
    image

    Personal favorite: IS & G35
    Personal least favorite: again the honor goes to the CTS
  • laurasdadalaurasdada Member Posts: 4,684
    To me, both in pictures and real life, the CTS interior stands out. For the wrong reasons, of course. (and I feel the same way about the exterior). IMO, it is terrible. That center stack just oozes cheap and looks to be almost an afterthought. Just no flow to the CTS interior and isn't the steering wheel just a tad too large? I believe that Caddy is addressing this issue with the '07s, I've seen some pix (SRX) and looks to be a BIG improvement. I'm certain that I've read that Caddy acknowledges the low-rent perception of their interiors and will rectify that beginning with the '07s.

    I basically like all the rest (I own a TL) although the MB center stack is too busy. The BMW looks better in pix, or maybe it has grown on me? Although I still don't like the "double-hood" look. An analog clock is always a welcome, classy touch to me. I prefer wood to aluminum, the TL uses real aluminum but both "Plood" and faux carbon-fiber. But, the IS makes good use of the aluminum.

    Tops for me, well I bought the TL. But the Audi, Lexus and MB are right there, too, with the G coming on. But the CTS: :P

    '21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)

  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    But, the IS makes good use of the aluminum.

    If you are talking about those tiny touches of aluminum around the shifter then yes, I think those are real. However, everything else is plastic with fake-metallic paint. :mad:
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Easy choices: 3, A4, G35

    Least favorite in order from worst: CTS, IS, MB, TL

    Same for interiors. Although I only like the bimmer interior in black and gray with aluminum. Wood in an interior = cheesey, pimp mobile.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    I agree with you about Audi and the red. The round of pictures focusing on the gauges clarified my reactions - the C-Class and the IS have almost no red and rest of them have too much for me.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    G35, by far has the most modern and nicest interior, thus is my favorite. ;)

    Rocky
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,889
    geez, rock, we agree. *shock* what's the world coming to? ;b

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,889
    I'm glad to hear some support. we must be the minority. All you ever hear about is the great Audi interiors. Anytime I want to talk bad about them, I think long and hard about how my feelings MUST BE WRONG. LOL.

    Oh well.

    As for the gauges, my rankings don't change. Infiniti, then Lexus, then Bimmer. The bimmer and lexus are very close, though. I like the classic chronometer look of the bimmer, but i also like the more modern and flashier lexus.

    The CTS gauges are horrible. What the heck is with that font? I could see that in a Cavalier, not a Caddy.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    I was never a fan of Audi interiors, They look blend and unispiring to me. However, I do believe Audi interior has one of the best build quality, if not the best. The only others that's close to it I think are Lexus and MB.

    I am also not a fan to the use of red color for gauges. For some reason red gauges put me to sleep while driving at night. I personally like sharp crystal white color for gauges just like the IS's. I think TL's gauge is pretty decent too but I prefer white needles instead of TL's red. BMW has the most classic gauge, not as flashy as the others but it's easy to read. G's looks a bit busy to me but general layout is pretty good. Last but not least, C's gauge is just too blend, despite it looks like might be the easiest to read.

    Oh yeah, and there's the CTS's...BTW, is that a clock at the left bottom corner on CTS' gauge? If that's a clock then where's the water temperature indicator? :confuse:
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    I'll take orange, red, blue, violet, purple, just no green or white.
  • 03accordman03accordman Member Posts: 671
    "I still have to do my research on winter tires. Is there a reason why you want to pick Dunlops M3 DSSTs?"

    I did some research and since I do want Runflats these seem to be the best choice. Its a performance winter so according to people who have used it it does not give up as much in handling as other winter tires. The downside is that its not the best snow tire (its supposed to be good for moderate snow) out there. I plan to put these on 17 inch wheels (I have sport pkg on my 330i) and swap the wheels twice a year. Getting close to pull the trigger.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    LOL, yeah it's nice we can agree once and a while. :)

    Rocky

    P.S. Audi, having the best interiors is seriously IMHO overrated. ;)
  • reality2reality2 Member Posts: 303
    Actually, Audi interiors are the best. Most every expert agrees to that. The Japaneses interiors seem to look all alike. Unless there was a badge on it, I would not able to tell which is which. Only Audi and BMW seem to have definable and brand looking interiors, while the rest kind of disappear in the background. So, quality of interior is its uniqueness as well.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    For that reason I expected to like the A4 interior. But I don't, not at all. And I don't agree that the Japanese interiors "all look alike".

    It's a daggoned good thing we have all these choices, isn't it!! :P
  • ggesqggesq Member Posts: 701
    Can you explain how the TL, G and IS look alike interior wise?
  • edwardsfedwardsf Member Posts: 190
    Thanks - Great photos. Except one. The Audi photo looks much poorer quality than the others.

    I don't know if I get to comment as I am mainly a lurker here (but a respectable lurker), but I think the TL and the IS are the most pleasing dashes - they are a little too lux for me, but they are soooothing. The Audi and BMW gauges are by far the best. There is something about no nonsense, somewhat retro teutonic guages that evoke high end machines to me. Wood interiors on these smaller German cars seem to clash with their bauhaus, glass and steel Messerschmidt effect.

    Purple and baby blue colors on gauges just seem like sacriledge to me. Except they fit perfectly on the G. For the life of me, I cannot figure out Infiniti's love of flashy, old lady-oriented interior glitz (that clock looks like a women's watch). Infiniti interiors spell Liberace and Myrtle Beach retirement communities for me. The Cadillac. Yes my fellow Americans, we have met the enemy and he is us.

    BTW, I think Saab fits here but you have to sit in the wrap around Saab interior to appreciate it's slavic modernism.
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,498
    . . .they fit perfectly on the G. For the life of me, I cannot figure out Infiniti's love of flashy, old lady-oriented interior glitz (that clock looks like a women's watch). Infiniti interiors spell Liberace and Myrtle Beach. . .

    I've enjoyed the discussions of interiors & gauges, but didn't comment until now. I completely agree with what you posted.

    And then, to top it off, I don't find the CTS interior so offensive as everyone else apparently does.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Well not everybody. :blush But with car interiors/exteriors the photos never seem to do them justice, either positive or negative. The BMW interior pales in comparison. Yet when I get in a BMW interior it is all about the driving, even i-drive. I love the orange gauges. The Lexus feels like my living room, I want to recline and go to sleep.

    It's interesting to read about peoples preferences when it comes to cars.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Actually if you want to go by the best interiors of late I'd say Nissan/Infinti have the most modern looking interiors. BMW, and Audi, use to have the best but it seems they as of late let Ray Charles, design them. :surprise:

    My favoritest interior of all the cars made for model year 2007' is the Volvo S80's. Volvo, has arguably the best interior design I've ever seen with the new S80.
    It is a real "eye-stopper" of modern art. :shades:

    Rocky
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    I love Ray Charles. Really don't like "modern" interiors like Nissan, Infiniti is more upscale easier to like.

    The BMW interiors are classic, meant for driving, not lounging. No visual clutter, no visual distraction. Controls are easy to use, easy to find.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Well these are my opinions and unfortunately I can't help the blinde. :P

    BMW, interiors lack a artistic design. Yuk !!!!

    Rocky
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    So would you recommend the new E320 Bluetec?

    Yes I would. The E has supposedly been gutted for 07 and should prove to be more reliable, but sadly the reality of buying a Mercedes is that reliabilty isn't a given anymore. That said........

    My marketing director has a 2005 E320 CDI which she likes, but it has had more problems in two years than her former E300 Turbodiesel had in four years.

    The main things I've seen about these is that people are getting "bad gas" according to service advisors. Last week while getting a service I was talking with a E320 CDI owner and she said the service adviser told her which stations to avoid. Despite this she said she would be getting a ML320 CDI.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I like the BMW, Lexus, Infiniti, Acura, Audi, Mercedes and Cadillac in that order.

    M
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    BMW, interiors lack a artistic design. Yuk !!!!

    Artistic design?

    "Art is useless, so is a flower." - Oscar Wilde

    I know car manus spend millions on exterior design and interior layouts. Yet not a single car in this class is even remotely attractive on the outside. As far as interior's the e46 had the best interior of all of them by a longshot. Now that it's gone we're stuck with the current faux pas that pass as interiors. Not a single one of the interiors shown above is driver-centric enough. They play to the rest of the car's passengers. The e46 with it's tighter design, titled-toward-the-driver dash, low beltline (god how I love riding in friends and family member's e46s) and controls right-at-hand epitomizes what these interiors should be.

    Visually, I couldn't care less - as long as there is no wood anywhere. I just want everything of importance - gauges, controls, HVAC, stereo pointed at me. The passengers can look out the window. Function over form - the driver is king of the domain, so therefore all functions should be aimed at pleasing the driver.
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