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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Somebody likes FWD cars...
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    It's a boat. It's falling apart after only 4 years, it handles like garbage and the interior's barely above an Accord EX. She may have leather and navi but in the end it's still a poorly made car that drives like a buick and makes all manner of horrid noises.

    Sorry Volvo, like Saab, belongs on another list: Also Sold. Brands that sell for a lot money but really aren't in any way Entry Level Luxury Performance sedans.

    You're not going to press a 3 or G hard, then hop in a Volvo S anything and feel like it's comparable. Ditto a FWD Lincoln MKZ or saab. Sorry, it's just not happening. This is about enty Level Luxury Performance sedans. The Volvo, Lincoln and Saab lineup are in the company of the Lexus ES world, not the performance sedan world.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,941
    have you ever driven an S60R?

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Well I have seen several photo's of both the LS and Audi A8, and have in fact read several tests and reviews on all of them. The LS, and A8, have a few features not found on the Volvo S80. However Volvo, has a few safety gadgets not found on either the LS or A8. The S80 also costs $30K less and has a way better interior than both the LS and A8. It just might be the best ever in my eyes. The engine advantage goes to Audi and Lexus. The exterior styling goes to Volvo also. The Lexus, as fintail would say is numb. The Audi A8, and Volvo S80's driving dynamics are a toss-up. The A8 has a more firm ride and the Volvo, has the 4-C's suspension which gives it a wide range. I guess we could call that a toss up ? So the question is this is the A8 and Lexus LS really worth $30K more than the Volvo S60. For me, no-way-Jose ! I guess for some the extra $30+K buys you status. However the Volvo, wins IMHO on style points and its benchmark safety.

    Rocky
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    You might want to preface most of your post IMO. I've been in an S80 and I don't think it has anywhere near the interior of the A8 much less the outgoing LS.

    As far as whether or not these cars are worth $30K more, the sales figures speak for themselves. People who buy these cars, don't blink twice about the price and Lexus, Audi and BMW sell cars at this price, because 1. there is a market, and 2. they can.

    And I don't give a win to the ugly S80 on either style or safety. Volvo has been surpassed in recent years by every other manufacturer.

    If you can't understand why people would want to pay the difference in price between the S80 and LS460, you might as well set your sights on an Elantra.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    The S80 also costs $30K less and has a way better interior than both the LS and

    Do you mean the interior MATERIAL QUALITY or STYLE? If you meant the style then I'll say the beauty is in the eyes of the beholders. If you meant the quality then I'll say you'll probably have to double check your vision. By the way, pictures usually don't tell much about interior material quality. For example, most GM and Ford cars' interior looks pretty decent in picture but once sitting in the cabin then it's a POS.

    The exterior styling goes to Volvo also

    Again, it's in your opinion. In my opinion, the Accord coupe looks way better than the MB E-class but does it mean that the Accord is better than the E? I think you know the answer.

    The Lexus, as fintail would say is numb

    First of all, the LS is designed to be a boat on land. To be fair, you should compare the S80 with the GS. I could guarantee you that the GS is not not be any "number" than the S80.

    The Audi A8, and Volvo S80's driving dynamics are a toss-up. The A8 has a more firm ride and the Volvo, has the 4-C's suspension which gives it a wide range

    What do you based this statement on? Your personal experience or mag reviews? Have you driven both the A8 and S80 (or the new LS) before? If not, have you seen any comparo that features the S80, A8 and the LS?

    The bottom line is that the S80 is NOT in the same class as the A8 and LS size-wise, feature-wise and luxuriously-wise.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    People who buy these cars, don't blink twice about the price and Lexus

    True. I think people whom buy those cars care more about the donuts, leather sofa and 50" plasma TVs in the waiting room more than the $30K difference between their car and a Volvo.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    kd, WHATEVER dude !!! The Volvo S80's interior is light years ahead in the styling department over the LS and audi A8. Audi's latest interiors actually look like they should be in a Elantra. Lexus, has always had nice interiors but they are the same old, same old look. Very conservative. Whoever designed the S80's interior should get the nobel prize for automotive art. :P

    Rocky

    P.S. The A8 and LS460 compared to the 07' S80 is like taking a extra $30K and flushing it straight down the toilet IMHO. I'm just glad your not spending my money. ;)
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Again, all you ever talk about is subjective stuffs...Where is the MEAT?
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Do you mean the interior MATERIAL QUALITY or STYLE? If you meant the style then I'll say the beauty is in the eyes of the beholders. If you meant the quality then I'll say you'll probably have to double check your vision. By the way, pictures usually don't tell much about interior material quality. For example, most GM and Ford cars' interior looks pretty decent in picture but once sitting in the cabin then it's a POS.

    Based on car mag and internet site reviews. My co-workers own Lexuses and I owned a Acura, at one time and I couldn't tell much of a difference in quality. They are basically the same grade as each other and I know this because I use to make the interior parts for all of them at JCI in Holland Mi.

    Again, it's in your opinion. In my opinion, the Accord coupe looks way better than the MB E-class but does it mean that the Accord is better than the E? I think you know the answer.

    Well the Accord is much more reliable and the quality difference really isn't that significant and yes I recently have sat in co-workers new Accord and a friends MB C-class.

    What do you based this statement on? Your personal experience or mag reviews?

    I gather my information from either my personal test or other sources like co-workers, friends, family, car mags, internet sites like edmunds where I can read actual owners opinions. I just don't come up with pie in the sky opinions even though sometimes it seems that way. If I had a billion dollars I'd still buy and prefer the S80, over the LS or A8. I don't have to wear a designers name on my butt for self-confidence and that's all you are doing with the LS or A8 IMHO. ;)

    The bottom line is that the S80 is NOT in the same class as the A8 and LS size-wise, feature-wise and luxuriously-wise.

    Agree the Volvo S80, beats both of them hands down style- wise, feature-wise I give a slight edge to the LS 460. The Audi A8, is still 5 years behind in gadgetology. luxuriously-wise, well that depends on what you want ? If you want conservative 'more of the same' buy the Lexus. If you like BMW's latest designs you will also like the Audi A8 also. If you want something modern looking that is pleasing to the eye you will pocket the $30+K and drive a Volvo S80. ;)

    It's as easy as that isn't it ? :blush:

    Buy a S80, and go on a road trip with the extra dough. ;)

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    louiswei, I not only I gave you the MEAT, I spoon fed you the potato's and salad also. :P

    Rocky
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Man, Rock, all I see is potato and salad. I AM HUNGRY.

    BTW, I am done with this S80 crap. This off-topic discussion has been dragging on for too long...
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    image

    Not too shabby for a so-so package(think boxy)and average in performance area.

    image

    Very understated luxury for a total package of performance, style and precision, IMO.

    Regards,
    OW
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    You can say whatever you want. That does not make it so either in fact, or to the buyers who won't blink twice about $30k. It's strictly in your opinion, which is fine by me.
  • ggesqggesq Member Posts: 701
    Although irrelevant to this forum, can you post pics of the backseats in both vehicles? I'm not too savvy on posting pics and links.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    image

    S80 Rear....

    image

    A8 rear cabin...you get what you pay for.

    Regards,
    OW
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    The S60 you test drove can be had for about $27K *new* after rebates, so no need to fall for the "2 year old" version trick. (bad dealer - no sale!)

    I like them because it's as I said, like a European Buick. Solid, safe, dependable, and sporty *enough* to at least not feel like a GM or Ford. Just be sure to get the sport package if they offer it. Did you test the sound system? Very nice. I'd so buy a S60R over a LaCrosse.

    We agree on the BMW and Mercedes - heh. It's amazing what they charge these days for that plastic symbol on the hood, isn't it? When I can get somethig like the Lincoln that is nicer, larger, and less money than a *C Class*(let alone Mercedes' main lines) and cars like the Lucerne CXS start to approach the BMWs in quality...

    No, not as good, but darn if you don't get a lot for your dollar. Mazda, btw, is my top pick for value for your money lately. The 6 is a very good car and a reason why you shouldn't buy a Hyundai. The 3 is so close to the new Civic in features and specs that it's scary, and the RX-8 is a bottle of youth with 4 seats. Just open it up and watch your worries evaporate :)

    I still suggest you go test-drive a RX-8 for fun. You'll not regret it.

    P.S. The reason Accura and Lexus look so simmilar is... They are Honda and Toyota in Japan. Those "brands" are foisted off on us in the U.S. for higher prices - while in Japan, it's just another Toyota or Honda.

    And those two in Japan are like comparing Ford vs Chevy trucks. 6 of one, half dozen... :P
  • flash11flash11 Member Posts: 98
    Ok, in basic terms please describe the criteria for entry level Luxury Performance Sedan that fits into being acceptable for this forum. I believe that there should not be a minimum price range, I don't think one was set. If you can find such a car under $30K built and performs better than these cars it should be mentioned. I drove the BMW 328xi, and the MB C230, are they considered in this class of car ? If they are then for sure the Lincoln MKZ surpasses them in quality, performance, luxury, standard options, price, and long term maintenance costs and deserves to be mentioned here. It is a midsized four seater sedan with 263hp. Overall it is a better car. As a matter of fact I believe that it is underrated and should be seriously taken into consideration here. I encountered this attitude with the salesman at MB, who does not consider any North American product in MB's class, seems narrow minded especially in the face of the facts. The Lincoln MKX is a great car for $29K, and oh, it comes in AWD at $31K since that seems to be a factor here, FWD=bad, cheap, low quality ?? Not sure why, I think Lincoln has outdone itself, good Job !

    What dissappointed me was the Cadillac CTS, I did not like the angular exterior design.
    Also I was not impressed with the Acura TL-S, for the money I would rather get the Lincoln MKX at $35K you can fill it nicely with options, and the salesman was willing to deal from that MSRP ie. bargain for a 6 year extended warantee etc.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    I don't know about you, but I don't want a volvo. I'm planning for my 335. Mazda is cheap to me, I won't put myself in one. RX-8 is a one trick pony.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "If they are then for sure the Lincoln MKZ surpasses them in quality, performance, luxury, standard options, price, and long term maintenance costs and deserves to be mentioned here"

    Performance and options are different your mixing and matching. BMWs are the gold standard. That said, they are not for everybody. the MKZ does not surpass BMW in quality or performance, not even close. I won't ever buy another Ford, but that is another story.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    Oh, but what a great trick the RX-8 pulls off :)

    It's the closest thing to an old 280Z that's currently for sale. Light, powerful, and handles like a true sportscar. All in a nice family-sedan format. ie - it doesn't beat you to death like a 350Z does.

    Just no "luxury" - otherwise it'd be a ringer in this comparison.
  • ggesqggesq Member Posts: 701
    Hopefully, pics are worth a 1000 words and should lay the S80 being even mentioned in the same sentence as an A8 or LS 460 to rest.....
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    I owned a Lincoln LS and it was a great car but when I test drove the 330xi, I was blown away by the driving performance. You need to drive one to know in your heart. Here is a good article on the progression at Lincoln to the new MKZ...

    Since the death of the good handling but weak selling LS sedan model, the brand has concentrated on cushy riding semi-luxury barges like the geriatric Town Car and last year's much more modern but still floaty Zephyr mid-sized sedan. As such, demanding roads like those in the Tennessee valleys were not on the agenda.

    Things have changed, however in the last 12 months. After being helmed virtually into the ground by series of ill-suited executives, Lincoln is under new management and most importantly has been given a much needed dose of fresh or revised products.

    The Zephyr has morphed into the MKZ, the Navigator underwent a major refreshening and most significantly, the MKX -- an upscale version of the Ford Edge crossover -- has joined the ranks. The Town Car still lurks in the background but it survives only to serve out an audience that is headed into extinction.

    Recognizing that the Zephyr was shy on horsepower and a little sloppy at the controls, the engineering team upped the V-6 powertrain to 263 hp (from 221), kept the six-speed automatic transmission, offered all wheel drive as an option and firmed up the ride and handling. Even without these improvements, the Zephyr has sold surprisingly well for Lincoln, so the brand rightly expects even better results from the MKZ. And while the car will never be compared with a BMW Three Series or an Acura TL in the handling department, it is certainly a match for the likes of the Honda Accord, Toyota Camry and Nissan Altima. And it is sufficiently competent to cope with the Tennessee twisters, including the infamous Deals Gap section, a road with 318 turns in just 11 miles.

    Regards,
    OW
  • ggesqggesq Member Posts: 701
    "Just no "luxury" - otherwise it'd be a ringer in this comparison."

    Exactly- that's why it doesn't belong in the comparison.

    IMHO, the RX-8 with its "4 doors" (and I use the term loosely) does not qualify it being a sedan.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    like them because it's as I said, like a European Buick. Solid, safe, dependable, and sporty *enough* to at least not feel like a GM or Ford.

    You're in the wrong forum! European Buick - that's hilarious as my buddy always calls my girlfriend's S80 a Buick. "Where's your Buick?" He asks this every time he's at our house as her European Buick is always in the shop for repairs.

    and cars like the Lucerne CXS start to approach the BMWs in quality...

    Wrong forum. Honestly, why are you in a performance forum if all you want is a big car with a soft ride?
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    Well, I was pointing out that the Mercedes and BMWs are overpriced for what you get. When you can get a vastly bigger and better optioned out competitor for less money, well, the name-brand factor starts to wear a bit thin.

    But for luxury performance undre $30K - something has to give. And I favor luxury over absolute performance if I had to choose which to go for.
  • ggesqggesq Member Posts: 701
    Does the MKZ offer a manual tranny? Nope. Sometimes- it's just that simple to be considered in this segment.

    I don't share your enthusiasm that a MKZ surpasses the 3er or C class in performance.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Ok, in basic terms please describe the criteria for entry level Luxury Performance Sedan that fits into being acceptable for this forum.

    Manual transmission as standard equipment
    Suspension tuning with an emphasis on handling over ride quality
    Driver-oriented interior
    Smaller size - ideally a compact but that's getting tougher to find.
    RWD preferable, with FWD as passable and AWD if one really must.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Just test drive the G35, 335I, Acura TL and the Lexus IS350 for a test of this segment.

    Unfortunately, (and believe me, I've felt the pain for a lot of years), our U.S. manufacturers dropped the ball a long time ago and are still looking for it. There is no reason why one of the big three could not provide an offering in this and other segments to trounce the Euro's and Asians. But reality bites. Big Time.

    Just drive and learn. Remember, you get what you pay for...my guess is you will lean toward Acura RL or Lexus GS, both outstanding cars.

    Best Regard,
    OW
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "Well, I was pointing out that the Mercedes and BMWs are overpriced for what you get."

    We'll they are only overpriced, because you can't get the same driving experience anywhere else. Besides if they are so overpriced, why are they selling like hotcakes?
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    They are "overpriced" because they don't benefit from "parts-bin" engineering like the domestics. The Ford Fusion, Mercury Milan, Lincoln Zephyr, and MKZ are all worked over Mazda 6's.

    The Mazda 6 is a fine, sporty family sedan, but it's no luxury car. The difference between the 6/MKZ/Fusion and BMW 3-series is obvious the moment you climb in and close the door. The BMW has such a rigid structure that you can hear and feel it when you shut the door. The materials may not be "plush" by Buick standards, but the quality is a notch or two above the domestics - just touch the plastics or actuate a control stalk/button to feel the difference. Drive a BMW over rough pavement or expansion joints, and the rock solid structure screams quality and engineering prowess - not just suspension tuning.

    Finally (and most importantly), wind the engine past redline, brake late entering your favorite corner, trail brake while you heel & toe downshift, and then add gentle throttle to settle the car. Now feel for that little seam in the pavement through your hands, feet, and seat (you know the one) that tells you it's time to set up for the apex. Get on the gas smoothly, shifting weight to the rear wheels and tighten your line mid-corner. Nail the apex and smoothly unwind the wheel while adding throttle. Do this repeatedly and you'll understand why a BMW costs as much as it does (and why it's worth every penny).

    It's all about giving the driver precise control and feedback, possessing neutral, razor-sharp yet forgiving handling characteristics, and amazingly, still maintaining a compliant ride that's comfortable for everyday driving - all with 4 doors and a back seat. Nobody does this better than BMW.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    It's all about giving the driver precise control and feedback, possessing neutral, razor-sharp yet forgiving handling characteristics, and amazingly, still maintaining a compliant ride that's comfortable for everyday driving - all with 4 doors and a back seat. Nobody does this better than BMW.


    Well said...I am a recent convert and was "hooked" on the first test drive. What a rush from all other cars I've driven.

    Regards,
    OW
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Nice post
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    That happened to me on the first test drive. If you're a driver you can't imagine how precise the Bimmer feels if you've never driven one.

    Ok so it may not have an M/L steroe, but it is by no means a cheap interior. A BMWs 3 series engineering goes into the chassis, motor and suspension, not the cup holders.
  • flash11flash11 Member Posts: 98
    Good point, stick vs. automatic does make a difference to some people.
    Engineering a manual shift into the Lincoln MKZ would be too much to ask from Ford right now I think but I will bring it up with my Ford buddies maybe the word will trickle to the right people :) That said, I found the MKZ a better buy overall, stick be dammed, than the BMW or MB I tried. I will try the 335i or a used E class within the next year before I make a decision. The MKZ sure was sporty at 263hp, really liked the power, the ride, and the interior/exterior design is perfect including the solidity at high speed. I will admit it is beefier and probably would not beat your BMW or MB in a race off down hair pin turn roads. Its just that its got this look, especially in dark colors with those chrome rims-very beautiful. Talked to a MB sales person today and she said its normal to feel that way, some of the North American products are actually good, but the major factor she said was how I would feel about it in 5 years, and upon resale or trade in, the loss in value is substantial. So if you want a BMW, MB, or Jaguar XK (Beautiful 007 look alike car by the way), you will have to pay the price. Myself, I guess I will suffer with a MKZ unless otherwise proven wrong. I firmly believe you are making a mistake not considering it comparible to BMW and MB. Strip the Beemer and MB badges and compare car to car, the Lincoln MKZ is definately comparible. Sorry you don't share my enthusiasm, you give too much credit to BMW and MB IMHO. Not having a manual stick option does not bother me in the least, but my MKZ will have the Nav.system,beefed up stereo,sunroof, chrome rims, the luxury group and hp to boot for the same price $35K vrrrum vrrumm ! I will have to deal with the resale issue after I have had years of driving pleasure with it :)
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Everybody has their priorities in what they look for in a vehicle. The reason people give instant credit to BMW is due to the reputation they have earned. Frankly overpriced is a value judgement.

    With my $10/mo VZ Nav couldn't care about navigation and I like a basic stereo with CD. I can use the VZ Nav when not in my car. What's important to you is not at all important to me.

    There are all sorts of choice out there for consumers. BMW and Infiniti have built a reputation and you know what their vehicles will do. The MKZ is up against some serious competition.
  • butchbr73butchbr73 Member Posts: 325
    I drove a loaded Maxima rental during a collision repair last year. It was fine, but not what I would consider luxury (interior), let alone performance (handling). I've not driven a G yet, but extrapolating the Maxima doesn't get me very excited. .......

    .... 2 completely different cars. for starters, built on completely different frames, maxima is obviously fwd and G is rwd. Do yourself a favor and testdrive a G35 and compare to the maxima... no comparison.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    , but my MKZ will have the Nav.system,beefed up stereo,sunroof, chrome rims, the luxury group and hp to boot for the same price $35K vrrrum vrrumm ! I will have to deal with the resale issue after I have had years of driving pleasure with it

    Enjoy. A 35k lincoln based on an ancient Mazda6 platform and sporting a lackluster 260+ hp engine mated to an automatic doesn't sound like fun to me.

    Strip the Beemer and MB badges and compare car to car, the Lincoln MKZ is definately comparible.

    Uh, I'd assume if you strip the badge from a beemer you'd have a motorcycle. Take the badge off a bimmer and you'd still have a tight RWD chassis mated to a sweet inline 6 and manual. Did you read the review of the 335i coupe in Inside Line this week? The e9x car is pulling sub 5 second 0-60 times and slalom speeds on par with an M3. We're talking about a track ready car that marries sublime performance to everyday civility.

    I paid under 36k for my 2006 330i. The 07 335i sedan is only $1800 more so sub 38k pricing for performance on par with an e46 M3 sounds like an insane deal.

    As for resale and cost to operate, the BMW is a tough nut to crack. Check out the 3 year true cost to own for the lincoln v. BMW 3 series. Look at that depreciation on the lincoln! :O
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    We may not agree on everything, but I so admire your diehard enthusiast slant it makes for very stimulating reading. Makes me want a BMW.

    M
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    I didn't know we were comparing a Volvo S80 interior to that of the Hyundai Azera ? I thought we were doing a S80 vs. Audi A8 interior comparo :confuse:

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    kd, I agree....I However think the S80, is way better looking. Just because I threw the S80 into the mix I wasn't expecting to get slammned. I was justifying the S80's place in the luxury segment and anybody can get some REAR LCD screens for their headrests. If $30k LCD screens are your thing then by all means select the A8 option. I'd rather pocket the dough and buy some LCD screens at Best Buy.

    Rocky

    P.S. The wood in the Azera, I mean A8, looks Hyundai Faux. ;)
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    A8 rear cabin...you get what you pay for.

    Well, that isn't always the case even though I tend to agree with you. In this case I disagree with you. $30K for a center console and limiting my number of passengers from 5 to 4 isn't worth $30K to me.

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Well in yours and a few others minds perhaps. The comparo of pics further proves to me the 2007' Volvo S80 might just be the best luxury car money can buy. The others might do this or that better but to me even if I had $80 or $90K to just blow on any car in the segment I'd still pick the S80. I'd get more car for my money, and wouldn't have to drive a car with a "eyesore" interior. I was kinda surprised you guys didn't throw in the LS 460. I suppose you didn't want make the A8 look that bad ? What's up with Audi anyways ? Whats that BMW i-drive BS gadget I see on the center console ? I see Mercedes using a similar device in the new S-class. I would assume after all the complaints about those devices the car manufactors would of scraped that idea. :confuse: What's wrong with voice recognition, or pushing a button ? :lemon:

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Well, I was pointing out that the Mercedes and BMWs are overpriced for what you get. When you can get a vastly bigger and better optioned out competitor for less money, well, the name-brand factor starts to wear a bit thin.

    But for luxury performance undre $30K - something has to give. And I favor luxury over absolute performance if I had to choose which to go for.

    Plekto, I agree with you....BMW's, Mercedes, and Audi's are like going to the mall and paying "Sean John" prices at Dillards or Marshall Fields, when Levi's will fit the bill at Meijer's at 50-75% of the cost. So childish IMHO.

    I guess some couldn't be seen walking out of anything but a yuppie store with the so called "best".

    Rocky
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Resale will kill you in the MKZ...even if it cost you a few thousand more to upgrade to the 335, you need to do your homework because at the end of your US ride, you will be out the cash you thought you saved. Happens evertime with US made. Reality bites...from the many times bitten.

    Regards,
    OW
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Good post flash11, you also can take your savings and if you choose you can beef up the 3.5 with aftermarket performance upgrades for a fraction of the cost those Bimmer drivers spent. they might beat you in resale, but they better have opted for the extended warranty because those bimmers aren't cheap later on in life where your MKZ, won't be expensive to repair and maintain. So let em' talk resale, but you I both know once the BMW's get a certain age they will try to sell it ASAP to avoid maintence and repair costs. ;)

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    I paid under 36k for my 2006 330i. The 07 335i sedan is only $1800 more so sub 38k pricing for performance on par with an e46 M3 sounds like an insane deal.

    As for resale and cost to operate, the BMW is a tough nut to crack. Check out the 3 year true cost to own for the lincoln v. BMW 3 series. Look at that depreciation on the lincoln! :O

    Sure if you want PLEATHER, and no comfort conviences !!!!
    How many people are going to buy just a basic 335i ???? sounds like a waste to me....To get one half-way nice you need to spend $45K

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Well that depends alot on how long he decides to keep it. If he's going to drive a car for a couple of years perhaps you are right. If he holds on to it he's definitely better off owning the MKZ.

    Is the MKZ going to depreciate $10-$15K faster over the # of years he owns the car ?
    ($29-$38K MKZ vs. $38-$50K+ 335i) Since we don't know the actual market-value of the MKZ or 335i we won't know the truth for a couple of years. We can only assume he's better off owning the 335i in a average lease cycle with the same amount of mileage allowed per yr. However if you factor in cost of ownership if he holds onto it outside of warranty the MKZ, will easily save him money on repair/maintence costs along with a significant lower price paid up front. ;)

    Rocky
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Let's say the MKZ cost him $37K. After 39 months, 36K miles it's worth around $17K residual. That's where you loose. There is no way around it. Unless you sell it private to someone who will give you the 17K.

    Only a few very desired US models hold their value. Very few.

    2007 Lincoln MKZ, AWD 4 Dr Sedan



    Window Sticker


    $37,540

    Purchase Price


    $36,495

    Odometer


    0 miles





    Program


    Bank Lease A

    Lease Payment


    $661 per month

    Term


    39 Months

    Mileage Allowance


    39,000 Total Miles

    Residual Value


    $16,698

    Purchase Option


    $17,048

    Money Factor


    0.00241

    Gap Insurance


    Included

    Down Payment


    $0

    Due At Signing

    $661 + sales tax and title fees
    Includes: First Months Payment

    Best Regards,
    OW
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    The reason you got "slammed" is because you're posting like the buying public is stupid and more specifically we are stupid. Comparing an A8 with an Azera, who are you kidding?

    In your mind the S80 represents the best thing going. If that were a fact, Volvo would be ruling the world instead of being owned by Ford. The Volvo has it's place, but I think the entire model line is ugly and unbalanced and drives the same way. The S80 has nothing in comparison to the LS, A8 or 7 series. It is not better looking, better handling or has a better interior. It is cheaper in eveyway possible than the luxury class cars you mentioned.

    In addition, the 335 will also dust every car in this segment in performance, you cannot do enough after-market upgrades to non-turbo models to make it as fast as a turbo. A little chip in the 335 will make it even faster. You get what you pay for.

    If price is your main concern you should not be looking at luxury automobiles as a comparison, because the S80 falls short compared to them in everything. Maybe you should head on over the high end luxury marquees forum and post an A8 is the equivalent of an Azera. See how you can convince these folks that own the automobiles. Maybe an Azera would be the car you are seeking?
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