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Okay, so following your line of thought...
After we take out the 335i, we then have to take out the IS350 because without the 335i, it is thousands highter than the competition. After that the G35 Sport is out, then the TL then at the end we'll end up with NOTHING.
There is nothing wrong for the 335i to be the most expensive of the pack, it's performance speaks for itself. If someone don't like it he/she can opt for the lesser 328i. After all, we are in a free country right?
Can EVERY customer whom wants a CTS-V use the GM employee discount? Someone works for BMW can make a same argument on the 335i as well. Ditto a Toyota employee on the IS350.
I was only kidding on the year end fire sale. :P
Rocky
Rocky
The key word being, "straight," like pretty much every American made vehicle...
Since the current price ceiling being discussed is around $40k, that's ok.
Again I realize this is a no domestics allowed forum
didn't i say no sulking? ;b
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
And if you followed the rest of that particular discussion, she said she was looking at those with a $50k car in the stable. Lincoln has one.
So drop this "lincoln isn't luxury" BS. If you want to exclude it, then so must you exclude Acura. They are priced almost identically ($28k to $50k). Lincoln is excluded for now due to lacking performance.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
I just built a 335i with "Dakota Leather Upholstery." MSRP is $40,845. Invoice is $38,187.
The base 335i already comes very well equipped with everything the "average buyer" needs in a luxury car. Sure, you could spend thousands of dollars on "power folding outside mirrors" and "active cruise control." I wouldn't.
Personally, my head hurts if i try to break down the manufacturers to such a degree. If we really tried, we could break manufacturers down into a dozen categories ... but that would just make too many damned discussions to follow.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
GMS (supplier) and GM Employee pricing are two different things. Also, while I haven't checked on the Cadillac "V-cars" specifically, I do know that dealers generally don't extend Employee/Supplier pricing on specialty cars (like the Z06 for example).
I'll give it a try... :P
Common Brand:
Everything that's not listed in the following 3 groups.
Semi/Near Luxury:
Acura
Buick (maybe, maybe not)
Lincoln
Infiniti (this could go both way, luxury/semi-luxury)
Volvo
Saab
Luxury:
Audi
BMW
Cadillac
Jaguar
Lexus
MB
Land Rover
Ultra Luxury/Prestigeous/Sports-Oriented:
Austin Martin
Bentley
Ferrari
Lamborghini
Lotus
Maserati
Maybach
Porsche
Rolls-Royce
If someone wants carbon fiber trim and laser cruise control, well they have to be willing to fork over the extra $$$$. I don't think the inclusion of these features should be considered when pricing the car for the "average buyer."
Anyone who buys a Porsche, for example, knows to be careful with the options list. A $70,000 911 can quickly turn into a $100,000+ car just by checking a few boxes - with not a single performance upgrade among them!"
The GM supplier program goes by a different term..
I know.. that makes no sense... but, there you go....
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There used to be two employee plans - an "A" and "B" plan. One was a flat discount off MSRP and the other was 5% off your best negotiated deal from dealer stock.
I think those plans are gone now.
Well, that's good to know.
My LS has RWD, a manual & a number of other features that people discuss here a lot. The company is certainly clueless & the car is extinct, but I only learned today that the Lincoln nameplate isn't luxury.
Is Cadillac?
Buick - no. *One* model that's maybe an Avalon competitor, but at 35K, it's still not by anyone's definition, "sporty".
You might add in the upper-end VWs, though - a couple of nice models appear every so often. If the 350Z had a back seat and four doors... There are a few oddballs out there that might fit in like this, so don't count everything out.
I think $35K is a good limit. $40K+ after delivery and taxes and such is really mainstream luxury territory. $35K also gives you enough room to add a few options and so on and end up out the door for under $40K.
IMO, the MKZ fits the category. The CTS does as well. I suspect even maybe one of the upper-end VWs also might make the cut. It's a pretty wide category, afterall.
Rocky
Rocky
What's that suppose to mean ? I didn't know most BMW owners are out at the track every weeked racing around the Nurenburing, thus meaning great handling over straight-line performance is a stupid argument since most will use the straightline performance 90% of the time...
Rocky
P.S. I can name a few american cars that out handle your BMW's
You don't think in your heart of hearts a 335i, which can outhandle and out perform a Mustang and cost $39 to the Mustang's $34K will be confused by anybody?
Same with the CTS-V. Get a $39K 335i, save $15K and beat the pants off the CTS-V.
Get over the fact you don't think a stripped 335i isn't a luxury car. The 335i is the consumate entry level vehicle and meets all of the criteria more than the other brands you have been mentioning.
The GM-Supplier is about 5% off and a savy buyer can beat it quite easily.
Rocky
Rocky
So by your logic the amount of luxury is controlled by the feature set of the vehicle? The WRX STI has driver defined variable differential control and a watercooled intercooler, not found onn 99% of all cars including the MKZ? Therefore it has more luxury then the MKZ?
Rocky
In the first group are Volvo, Saab, Acura, Infiniti (though their prestige is rising again), and Cadillac.
Next group, which is more prestigious, BMW, Audi, MB, Jaguar (minus the the x-type, no one thinks this a real Jaguar) and Lexus.
While Lincoln and Buick have all of the bells and whistles, they are not in the same category as the others because they are not perceived as being as prestigious. The Hyundai Azerra has the bells and whistles but it misses mark for the same reason.
I was using the Mustang to be sarcastic but once I mention Shelby, then it becomes a different ball game. (I won't go there)
Same with the CTS-V. Get a $39K 335i, save $15K and beat the pants off the CTS-V.
We've already had this discussion and as I proved to you already the CTS-V does everything better than the 335i
Next Question:
Get over the fact you don't think a stripped 335i isn't a luxury car.
If a stripped 335i is a luxury car then a kia sophia is then also. Come-on dude you are losing credibility. What is luxurious about a pleather 335i. For god sakes it doesn't have heated seats standard which is one of the basic gadgets found in a luxury car. Hell my moms G6 GTP has heated seats :confuse:
The 335i is the consumate entry level vehicle and meets all of the criteria more than the other brands you have been mentioning.
I'm not debating whether or not the 335i is the best. I was simpily pointing out the MKZ, should be allowed to stay since it has the credentials.
Rocky
Me I'd drive a stripper 335 anyday over an MKZ. At least the smile that's plastered to my face will never go away.
Actually you've proved nothing because it isn't so.
"If a stripped 335i is a luxury car then a kia sophia is then also"
Okay by me.
"Come-on dude you are losing credibility"
Please don't even go there.
Please stop with the CTS-V, it does not do one thing better than the 335i other than cost $15K more. Ok, it's slightly larger, if that's your fancy. Wait, you are referring to the 2008 model that will kill off the competition....
Rocky
You've been doing that for a while.
Rocky
Rocky
Rocky
Rocky
Once again, please create a discussion that suits your interests instead of trying to change this one.
http://www.lincoln.com/reachhigher/?section=MKZhome&sReferrer=189394|14539740|53- 561043|0
I clicked on every link. I read the every bullet. There isn't a single reference to the suspension, sport-tuned or otherwise.
If this is a sport sedan, Lincoln sure doesn't want consumers to know it.
Rocky
MSRP is $41,845. Invoice is $39,097.
This car also has Dynamic Stability Control, Xenon headlights, Power seats/headrests with 2-driver memory (seats and mirrors), Multifunction steering wheel with Bluetooth controls, Engine start/stop button, Vehicle/key memory (retains HVAC, seat, mirror, and audio settings), Auto-climate control with rear controls, 2-way power moonroof, Dynamic cruise control, Rain sensing wipers, Logic7 surround sound with Aux input, and all the latest safety technology (brake fade compensation, brake drying, adaptive brake lights, etc.).
You lost any trace of credibility you might have had when you compared this car to a Mustang and a Kia.
The double-wishbone design is tuned to provide sporty performance. Understeer is reduced, and better contact with the road is increased for more consistent handling."
That's all you could find?!?! The Honda Accord has had this for more than a decade.
Not sure what that says about BMW, though...
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#1 criteria on my list and several others as well as the original posting...
MUST HAVE MANUAL TRANSMISSION.
I don't care if it's a $35K Ferrari(if such a thing existed) - no stickshift - not a sports sedan.
Chrysler and Hummer got left of the near and luxury brands list. However, I wouldn't put either here.
IMHO, the listed cars belong here. Volvo, Jaguar and Lincoln are all luxury nameplates. However, they don't really make entry level luxury PERFORMANCE sedans. (The X-type comes the closest of these 3.)
Now, back to the cars...sedans only
3-series sedans (No M as it's a coupe anyway)
9-3 sedan
A4 sedans (NO S4,RS4)
C-class sedans (NO AMG)
CTS both engines (NO V)
G35 SEDAN
IS250/350
TL (TSX is a European family sedan--i.e. Accord)
I know a lot of people in this forum like to pick on BMW and Lexus for their higher MSRP's. However, I wonder if anyone has actually looked at the MSRP for the C350? (Hint: It's well in the mid 40's, too.)