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Comments
Talk about opening a can of worms...
The TSX is arguably the nimblest, sportiest, most fun-to-drive car in this segment - even if it no longer competes in the HP war. In spirit and driving dynamics, it's the closest thing to an E30 that you can buy today.
Lincoln MKZ interior link
Lincoln MKZ exterior link
BMW 328xi exterior link
Yes, I have driven the BMW 328xi and the MB C230, they don't meet up to the MKZ's Luxury, performance, options, and most of all the price for what you get. The BMW and MB are wonderful cars, but the MKZ is a better car for your money-bottom line. Too bad you don't want to admit it.
"Only a hard-core Lincoln wonk would notice the modified front fascia that arrives with the engine and name change. And we're not sure there are any hard-core Lincoln wonks."
Wait! I know one, I know one! My man Flash.
Also, "The overall feel is neutral and competent. It's no BMW 3 Series, nor even an Acura TL, but it handles better than most Lincoln buyers are likely to expect or demand." Ouch Flash.
The BMW 3-series was designed from the ground up to be a premium, benchmark setting entry-level luxury performance car. Every facet of its design, from engine, suspension, chassis, materials, etc. was conceived for the purpose of making the 3-series the most satisfying car to drive and own in this segment.
The MKZ, on the other hand, is a "parts-bin creation" conceived by Ford marketing to turn a 5 year-old, $18,000 Mazda6 into a $34,000 "premium sedan."
Don't get me wrong, I think the Mazda6 is a perfectly competent sedan - a reasonable alternative to the Accord and Camry. I just don't believe that a big V-6 and a sprinkling of pixie dust transforms the Mazda6 into a premium car.
If that particular offering of Lincoln suits your needs and puts a smile on your face then great! It's your money and you should spend it on what makes you happy. I have absoultely no problems with that and I am not trying to tell you that you made a bad decision.
However, if you or anyone else wants to compare the driving dynamics of a 328 or a 335 to a MKZ and then say that it doesn't meet up to the performance level of the MKZ is ludicrous.
Bottom line- the host has excluded the MKZ from this discussion because it just simply does not belong here.
Happy motoring!
:surprise:
"I thought the M3 was overrated, even the interior in leather was barely acceptable to my standards of comfort/aesthetic appearance considering the actual price paid-but it was a sports package-you can't expect Lincoln MKZ luxury for that price and still get the performance right???"
BMW is in the business of making vehicles for "drivers." They are not in it to provide every gadget and every luxury item in their vehicles like Audi, Lexus, Acura (and the 07 G).
I wonder if our friend flash11 is drinking water from the same well as our good friend RockyLee. If so, the damage from the 3 mile island catastrophe continues.
But even at that, the re-sale hit you will take if you actually purchase this beast will kill you each year of ownership, not to mention the high cost of repair with the less than average wear and tear rating.
The MXZ is even worse for the original buyer but good if you take it off someone who took the initail hit after 2-3 years.
Regards,
OW
Agreed. My statement is a little misleading. I was merely trying to point out that BMW's main focus with the 3er is to be a performance sedan- first and foremost-- and then everything else follows.
Anyone who wants to talk about them and can't find a suitable discussion, please feel free to go the top-level of this board and use the Add a Discussion link to create a new one.
Thanks.
Current and Future-performance oriented domestic & foreign sedans forum
Rocky
YIKES!! I am in absolute awe that anyone thinks the X-type is a better performance car than the S60R.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
But, as you saw in some of the posts that followed yours, its not quite that easy to make a list that everyone agrees with or that even every car in a manufacturer's lineup agrees with.
Now, in my head, when I think of certain manufacturers, my list is very similar to yours. But then I get into the problem of, as one poster mentioned, something like the X-type. It ruins the whole brand, IMHO, and makes them actually span across multiple categories. Same with the A3 to A8 range. And let's not forget the Saab 92x and 97x. So many of them seem to have their skeletons.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
BTW I notice you have been predicting the demise of the 3 series for about 1+ years now. Hasn't happened yet, much to your chagrin, I'm sure.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
Will this car drive in 2 to 3 inches of snow? Are there all season tires for this car since the front and rear are different sizes?
$36K sounds like the ideal price for me.
What do y'all think? Am I the only one to have issue with it?
I believe they offer the C280 and the C350 with the 4-Matic.
Check out the tire rack for the all season tires.
It has 286 hp which is about 20hp less than the G, 335i and IS 350. I don't expect the TL-S to outrun, outhandle or outperform the G or 335i on a track but am still waiting to see the numbers this thing produces.
Some folks are picking up the TL-S for 36k.
I personally don't have an issue with it so long as you can get a discount on it.
Folks might cross shop the two at any price point but the driving dynamics of each differentiate the two.
I actually lost some sleep last night thinking about how I might have dismissed the "car that must not be named" a little prematurely. Humor me before you delete this.
We (I) dismissed the MKZ as a non-performance car from a non-luxury marque, and that was that. Last night, I wrote that the MKZ is not worthy because it's based largely on the Mazda6, which is more or less a pedestrian midsize car.
Here's what got me rethinking this - consider the Acura TL. You could argue that the TL is squarly in this segment - FWD yes, but peformance oriented, luxurious, high quality, and from an agreed upon luxury marque.
But consider how much the TL and MKZ have in common. Both are FWD and both share 95% of their DNA with a 5-year old midsize car design (and the Mazda6 and Accord are direct competitors in price, performance, and features). Both marques actually exist in their own little "tweener" band of near-luxury, not actually luxury like M-B, Jaguar, and BMW.
Compare both cars side-by-side, feature for feature, and the MKZ and TL have a lot in common (HP, wheelbase, weight, features, price, etc.).
My conclusion? If the MKZ doesn't belong here, it's only because of Lincoln's heritage as a plush car maker compared to Acura's race heritage. Acura's literature contains detailed specs about the TL's performance features (roll bar diameter, turns lock-to-lock, size and type of brakes, dampeners, etc. while Lincoln literature lacks any specifics. Other than that, the two are pretty close on paper.
One final point - I think perhaps that the base TL no longer belongs here for the same reasons that the MKZ doesn't. Years have marched on and we now have the TL-S - the base TL (which always was a little soft and floaty for my taste) now lacks a manual tranny option. All of the "go-fast" parts like thicker sway bars, 6-speed MT, etc. are all on the TL-S. The base TL is arguably more like a Buick than ever before.
I'm sure many won't agree, but I feel guilty that I've wronged a competent car, and I want to make things right. After a lot more research on my part, the MKZ still isn't my kind of car, but I think it's more car than any of us have given it credit for.
Do you think the IS 350 should be excluded as well because it doesn't have a manual tranny option? Yes, it has RWD and 300+hp but I don't think the IS 350 should be excluded much less the base TL. Although FWD, the base TL still has front and rear suspension characteristics of a sport sedan, rack and pinion steering, and a rigid body structure.
The TL also has the "steptronic" transmission. A feature not found on the Lincoln. Personally, I think the steptronic transmission is a joke because it doesn't let you hold a gear for as long as you want- the computer kicks in. Nonetheless it is still there and it is combined with the drive by wire throttle system. All of the aforementioned combined make the base TL a "sporty" FWD sedan.
Rumors about the 4G TL is that it will have 300hp+ and AWD.
Well, maybe in 08 they'll do it :>)
R
I can't speak to "most people", but for me and many I know, Acura and Lexus are not as directly competitive as your post suggests, and as such there is no intrinsic need for Acura to be less expensive than Lexus. If my 2004 TL 6-speed were to be crushed by a falling tree tonight, there is still nothing in the entire 2007 Lexus line-up that would get me to stop in their showroom. The closest would probably be the IS350, but its dimunitive back seat and lack of a manual transmission are non-starters. Lexus could sell the ES350 for $20k and, in spite of that being an extraordinary deal, I wouldn't buy it. In 2001, I bought a Honda S2000, in 2005 a Porsche 911S. There is no price that would have gotten me to give the Lexus SC430 a serious look. As ggesg indicated, Lexus is more luxury oriented, Acura is more sport oriented.
The closest we ever came to buying a Lexus was when we were SUV shopping last year. We seriously considered the GX, but ended up in a MDX due to the better 7 passenger functionality and the better on-road handling driving dynamics. The GX would have been less expensive, considering it qualified for a tax writeoff, but once again, didn't quite meet our needs and preferences.
I know of some who have cross shopoped the GS and RL, but in that category, I'd be in a 530i or 550i (6-speed stick of course).
**Medium Premium Car class hmmm...Entry level Lux-Perf.sedan class maybe ??
***Ward's 2006 Auto Interiors Show hmm..are they a reputable source to judge car interiors-all those Mercedes fans feel slighted now, what was it the interior looks awful
" the has one of the most beautiful cabins in its class, miles ahead of Cadillac and Mercedes."****The Detroit News, 2/8/06
fedlawman, Rocky, could anyone please post an interior and exterior image of the vs. the BMW 335i please ? How do you attach images to this forum ?
Flash 11">
I'm not saying any car should be bought carte-blanche just because, but each car has it's strengths and weaknesses. Each buyer likes different things. I'm not big on "fancy" interiors like Lexus. I like spartan, functional, high quality and driver friendly. To me no car manufacturer does that better than BMW.
Yes, 3 short years ago, the TSX and E46 325i were high on the list in this segment. Now they don't even blip the radar. The bar has been raised a lot in the last couple of years, and the base TL is not as competitive as it used to be (when this thread was in its infancy).
"All of the aforementioned combined make the base TL a "sporty" FWD sedan."
I agree, I think the TL absolutely belongs here. It is not the benchmark of this segment, but on a graph depicting the from "luxury" "sport" continuum, the TL is probably near the top of the bell curve (average) for the segment.
The point I was making is that, upon closer examination of the "DNA," I have decided that the base TL and FWD Lincoln MKZ have a lot more in common than first meets the eye - that, if one is to be excluded, then perhaps we should re-examine the other one more closely.
Calm down Flash. I'm willing to give it the benefit of the doubt for the time being - based on paper stats and photographs. We should reserve judgement until we actually sit in, touch, and drive it for ourselves. Only then will we know if it feels as good as it might look on paper.
Remember, American auto makers are notorious for their hideous interiors and cheap plastics. Most "premium luxury" American cars pale in material and build quality when parked next to a Honda Accord.
Lincoln MKZ:
I don't like it personally, but hey, whatever floats your boat. Here, I think this American car has a much nicer looking interior:
Looks pretty nice, huh? Unfortunately, on paper only. In person, it's just a $20,000 Saturn - and you know it as soon as you actually sit in it.
That picture came from the Japanese Nissan website. They offer that color for the Skyline 350GT, which is our G35.
I am not sure if it will ever be offered here because Infiniti has that color for the US Market M35/M45 & FX35/FX45 and it doesn't sell very well.
But, I hope they offer it...
They also did a better job on the interior lighting for the G35. No more orange, and they added LED ambient lighting.
People complained it was slow. In addition to being relatively slow, it got terrible gas mileage. People complained the ride was too stiff and jarring (that's how I like it). People complained the interior was too cramped.
So lexus stuffed a 300+ hp v6 under the hood of a softly sprung chassis. they just took all the fun out of the car.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
And yes, in the picture, the styling of the Aura makes the MKZ look all the more unacceptable.
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
Regards:
Oldengineer