Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

fedlawman · November 2006

"(TSX is a European family sedan--i.e. Accord)."

Talk about opening a can of worms...

The TSX is arguably the nimblest, sportiest, most fun-to-drive car in this segment - even if it no longer competes in the HP war. In spirit and driving dynamics, it's the closest thing to an E30 that you can buy today.

blueguydotcom · November 2006

Acura needs to drop the RDX's engine in the TSX. Great little car.

kdshapiro · November 2006

You want that thing to get 11 mpg?

kdshapiro · November 2006

You forgot the Volvo S60.

fedlawman · November 2006

What a fantastic package that would be. Honda will never do it though - can't let the TSX out-handle AND out-accelerate the TL.

blueguydotcom · November 2006

? The RDX weighs almost 4k lbs and is a bit rough in the wind. but still gets 19/23. The tsx comes under 3300 lbs...I'd expect 22/28 or so with that turbo.

blueguydotcom · November 2006

certainly give the tsx a bump in fun. i liked that car in all ways but acceleration.

kdshapiro · November 2006

....11 mpg...yeppers. It is a very thirsty engine.

fedlawman · November 2006

Comptech will fix that problem for about $4,000. Their supercharger system adds 50 WHP and is covered by factory warranty.

flash11 · November 2006

Could somone more talented than I post the images comparing the Lincoln MKZ to the BMW 328xi interior and exterior. I tried to do a screen capture and save it as an attachment but it would not paste. I have attached their image links below so that everyone could see for themselves how awful it looks:

Lincoln MKZ interior link

Lincoln MKZ exterior link

BMW 328xi exterior link

Yes, I have driven the BMW 328xi and the MB C230, they don't meet up to the MKZ's Luxury, performance, options, and most of all the price for what you get. The BMW and MB are wonderful cars, but the MKZ is a better car for your money-bottom line. Too bad you don't want to admit it.

flash11 · November 2006

My point is even with automatic transmission the Lincoln MKZ still outperforms, has more luxury,better options and a better price than the BMW 328xi and the MB C230. If you could do a comparison-overall which beats which make and model. Do a kind of better of three evils comparison for me, just humor me and I will stop posting here after this unless Rocky and Plekto want me to stay to give my .02 cents once in a while. Most expensive car to date I have driven has been with a year 2000 M3 with Dynan upgrades and paddle shifters-the owner bragged that there was 600hp under the hood-he did a neutral drop (high revs then put it into first gear) to show me the acceleration-not impressed-had a Corvette with better O-60 speed in an automatic. I thought the M3 was overrated, even the interior in leather was barely acceptable to my standards of comfort/aesthetic appearance considering the actual price paid-but it was a sports package-you can't expect Lincoln MKZ luxury for that price and still get the performance right???...:)

brightness04 · November 2006

3, A-4 and C are European family sedans, too. How else do you call a four-door car powered by a 2 liter four-ganger or even less in some cases.

edwardsf · November 2006

From Inside Line review of the MKZ:

"Only a hard-core Lincoln wonk would notice the modified front fascia that arrives with the engine and name change. And we're not sure there are any hard-core Lincoln wonks."

Wait! I know one, I know one! My man Flash.

Also, "The overall feel is neutral and competent. It's no BMW 3 Series, nor even an Acura TL, but it handles better than most Lincoln buyers are likely to expect or demand." Ouch Flash.

fedlawman · November 2006

In my opinion, the reason why the MKZ doesn't belong in this segment is because of it's DNA.

The BMW 3-series was designed from the ground up to be a premium, benchmark setting entry-level luxury performance car. Every facet of its design, from engine, suspension, chassis, materials, etc. was conceived for the purpose of making the 3-series the most satisfying car to drive and own in this segment.

The MKZ, on the other hand, is a "parts-bin creation" conceived by Ford marketing to turn a 5 year-old, $18,000 Mazda6 into a $34,000 "premium sedan."

Don't get me wrong, I think the Mazda6 is a perfectly competent sedan - a reasonable alternative to the Accord and Camry. I just don't believe that a big V-6 and a sprinkling of pixie dust transforms the Mazda6 into a premium car.

kdshapiro · November 2006

I think you have to define what you mean by some of your terms. If your idea of luxury is soft plushy seats vs the bolstering seats on the 3 series you should let us know. If your idea of performance is a mushy Lincoln ride vs the firm ride of the 3 series you should let us know. If your idea of performance is 0 to 60 that too would be a good thing to know. Is performance throwing the car around the curves and driving the car instead of being chauffeured by the car?

ggesq · November 2006

If I remember correctly, I did state IMHO (= in my honest opinion) when referring to the exterior and interior of the MKZ.

If that particular offering of Lincoln suits your needs and puts a smile on your face then great! It's your money and you should spend it on what makes you happy. I have absoultely no problems with that and I am not trying to tell you that you made a bad decision.

However, if you or anyone else wants to compare the driving dynamics of a 328 or a 335 to a MKZ and then say that it doesn't meet up to the performance level of the MKZ is ludicrous.

Bottom line- the host has excluded the MKZ from this discussion because it just simply does not belong here.

Happy motoring!

ggesq · November 2006

"My point is even with automatic transmission the Lincoln MKZ still outperforms......than the BMW 328xi and the MB C230"

:surprise:

"I thought the M3 was overrated, even the interior in leather was barely acceptable to my standards of comfort/aesthetic appearance considering the actual price paid-but it was a sports package-you can't expect Lincoln MKZ luxury for that price and still get the performance right???"

BMW is in the business of making vehicles for "drivers." They are not in it to provide every gadget and every luxury item in their vehicles like Audi, Lexus, Acura (and the 07 G).

dhamilton · November 2006

Uhhhhh, bud i got news for ya. BMW offers every gadget and luxury item that everyone else does. But yeah, their cars are still a lot more compelling for the enthusiast than a Lincoln.

I wonder if our friend flash11 is drinking water from the same well as our good friend RockyLee. If so, the damage from the 3 mile island catastrophe continues.

circlew · November 2006

I suggest that there will be a future for the Lincoln and Caddy in this segment but for now, only the CTS-V belongs, IMO.

But even at that, the re-sale hit you will take if you actually purchase this beast will kill you each year of ownership, not to mention the high cost of repair with the less than average wear and tear rating.

The MXZ is even worse for the original buyer but good if you take it off someone who took the initail hit after 2-3 years.

Regards,
OW

ggesq · November 2006

"Uhhhhh, bud i got news for ya. BMW offers every gadget and luxury item that everyone else does."

Agreed. My statement is a little misleading. I was merely trying to point out that BMW's main focus with the 3er is to be a performance sedan- first and foremost-- and then everything else follows.

pat · November 2006

We need to officially drop the MKZ and CTS-V. So the posts about them stop here.

Anyone who wants to talk about them and can't find a suitable discussion, please feel free to go the top-level of this board and use the Add a Discussion link to create a new one.

Thanks.

rockylee · November 2006

Talk about the Cadillac CTS-V or Lincoln MKZ, I'll be more than happy to accomodate you at my new board:

Current and Future-performance oriented domestic & foreign sedans forum

Rocky

qbrozen · November 2006

Volvo, Jaguar and Lincoln are all luxury nameplates. However, they don't really make entry level luxury PERFORMANCE sedans. (The X-type comes the closest of these 3.)

YIKES!! I am in absolute awe that anyone thinks the X-type is a better performance car than the S60R.

qbrozen · November 2006

valiant effort.

But, as you saw in some of the posts that followed yours, its not quite that easy to make a list that everyone agrees with or that even every car in a manufacturer's lineup agrees with.

Now, in my head, when I think of certain manufacturers, my list is very similar to yours. But then I get into the problem of, as one poster mentioned, something like the X-type. It ruins the whole brand, IMHO, and makes them actually span across multiple categories. Same with the A3 to A8 range. And let's not forget the Saab 92x and 97x. So many of them seem to have their skeletons.

kdshapiro · November 2006

See ya' there.

kdshapiro · November 2006

rockylee, "2007 Cadillac CTS and CTS-V" #2, 31 Oct 2005 7:45 pm

BTW I notice you have been predicting the demise of the 3 series for about 1+ years now. Hasn't happened yet, much to your chagrin, I'm sure.

blueguydotcom · November 2006

You think the A3 hurts the Audi image? Wow. I say a car like that can only help get people to convert to audi. Like the 1 series, I think the A3 is a great entry vehicle for that manu.

pat · November 2006

We're done talking about the MKZ. I'll be removing off-topic posts from here on (as I just did).

qbrozen · November 2006

Sorry. That came out wrong. The X-type hurts Jag, but, no, the A3 doesn't hurt audi in the same way. It just makes them span categories in the same way.

piason · November 2006

Looking to purchase the 2007 C230 but wanted to ask a few questions.

Will this car drive in 2 to 3 inches of snow? Are there all season tires for this car since the front and rear are different sizes?

louiswei · November 2006

Although I am a hardcore Acura/Honda fan and I love the current gen TL but I am having a hard time to digest that Acura is charging over $38K for a FWD, sub 300 HP car.

$36K sounds like the ideal price for me.

What do y'all think? Am I the only one to have issue with it?

from_fl · November 2006

I loved Honda/Acura product during Senna era(Civic, CRX,Prelude, NSX, F1 cars). After his death, Honda/Acura product no longer excite me. The halo is gone.

robbieg · November 2006

When the current generation TL came out, what was the price something like 32,000 without the nav? 34 with it? That was a great price point for the time. Same thing goes when the last generation was introduced in 1999 for 28,000. Right now, the closer you get to 40,000 the closer you get to the ES 330, not too mention the remarkedly improved IS. Most people who buy Acura's buy them because of the value that they get in comparison to a Lexus. Therefore, an Acura should be a lot less than a Lexus. At 38,000 it ma be too close to the Lexus.

bmwlov3r · November 2006

I think if you plan to drive the car in that much snow, you should consider getting a model that offers 4-Matic all wheel drive.
I believe they offer the C280 and the C350 with the 4-Matic.
Check out the tire rack for the all season tires.

ggesq · November 2006

The TL-S is 2k more than the TL-P. For the extra 2k, you get the RL engine, manual tranny option, S seats, steering wheel and pedals, different exhaust, tail lights and other minor things. Some folks might see that as 2k well spent- others won't.

It has 286 hp which is about 20hp less than the G, 335i and IS 350. I don't expect the TL-S to outrun, outhandle or outperform the G or 335i on a track but am still waiting to see the numbers this thing produces.

Some folks are picking up the TL-S for 36k.

I personally don't have an issue with it so long as you can get a discount on it.

ggesq · November 2006

The TL and ES even at 40k are still two totally different types of FWD vehicles. The TL is a "sporty" FWD sedan and the ES is a ultra luxury boulevard cruiser IMHO.

Folks might cross shop the two at any price point but the driving dynamics of each differentiate the two.

fedlawman · November 2006

You know Pat, after I posted my last message last night, I started thinking that we might be wrong after all.

I actually lost some sleep last night thinking about how I might have dismissed the "car that must not be named" a little prematurely. Humor me before you delete this.

We (I) dismissed the MKZ as a non-performance car from a non-luxury marque, and that was that. Last night, I wrote that the MKZ is not worthy because it's based largely on the Mazda6, which is more or less a pedestrian midsize car.

Here's what got me rethinking this - consider the Acura TL. You could argue that the TL is squarly in this segment - FWD yes, but peformance oriented, luxurious, high quality, and from an agreed upon luxury marque.

But consider how much the TL and MKZ have in common. Both are FWD and both share 95% of their DNA with a 5-year old midsize car design (and the Mazda6 and Accord are direct competitors in price, performance, and features). Both marques actually exist in their own little "tweener" band of near-luxury, not actually luxury like M-B, Jaguar, and BMW.

Compare both cars side-by-side, feature for feature, and the MKZ and TL have a lot in common (HP, wheelbase, weight, features, price, etc.).

My conclusion? If the MKZ doesn't belong here, it's only because of Lincoln's heritage as a plush car maker compared to Acura's race heritage. Acura's literature contains detailed specs about the TL's performance features (roll bar diameter, turns lock-to-lock, size and type of brakes, dampeners, etc. while Lincoln literature lacks any specifics. Other than that, the two are pretty close on paper.

One final point - I think perhaps that the base TL no longer belongs here for the same reasons that the MKZ doesn't. Years have marched on and we now have the TL-S - the base TL (which always was a little soft and floaty for my taste) now lacks a manual tranny option. All of the "go-fast" parts like thicker sway bars, 6-speed MT, etc. are all on the TL-S. The base TL is arguably more like a Buick than ever before.

I'm sure many won't agree, but I feel guilty that I've wronged a competent car, and I want to make things right. After a lot more research on my part, the MKZ still isn't my kind of car, but I think it's more car than any of us have given it credit for.

drewsrx · November 2006

I wish that Infiniti would offer this color interior for the new G35, as they do in Japan. I think that the wood looks fantastic with it. The carpet treatment is interesting as well. I like how they are bringing back the use Japanese art and culture into their design. Reminds me of what they were trying to do with the original Q45.

ggesq · November 2006

"Years have marched on and we now have the TL-S - the base TL (which always was a little soft and floaty for my taste) now lacks a manual tranny option. All of the "go-fast" parts like thicker sway bars, 6-speed MT, etc. are all on the TL-S."

Do you think the IS 350 should be excluded as well because it doesn't have a manual tranny option? Yes, it has RWD and 300+hp but I don't think the IS 350 should be excluded much less the base TL. Although FWD, the base TL still has front and rear suspension characteristics of a sport sedan, rack and pinion steering, and a rigid body structure.

The TL also has the "steptronic" transmission. A feature not found on the Lincoln. Personally, I think the steptronic transmission is a joke because it doesn't let you hold a gear for as long as you want- the computer kicks in. Nonetheless it is still there and it is combined with the drive by wire throttle system. All of the aforementioned combined make the base TL a "sporty" FWD sedan.

Rumors about the 4G TL is that it will have 300hp+ and AWD.

rjorge3 · November 2006

drewsrx where did you find the pic? I loved that combo, when my A4 lease experies, I am strongly considering the 07 G35. I was leaning towards the grey leather interior, but after looking at the "burnt orange, brick or marroon" interior, I really hope that they offer if in 2008.

Well, maybe in 08 they'll do it :>)

R

habitat1 · November 2006

"Right now, the closer you get to 40,000 the closer you get to the ES 330, not too mention the remarkedly improved IS. Most people who buy Acura's buy them because of the value that they get in comparison to a Lexus. Therefore, an Acura should be a lot less than a Lexus. At 38,000 it ma be too close to the Lexus".

I can't speak to "most people", but for me and many I know, Acura and Lexus are not as directly competitive as your post suggests, and as such there is no intrinsic need for Acura to be less expensive than Lexus. If my 2004 TL 6-speed were to be crushed by a falling tree tonight, there is still nothing in the entire 2007 Lexus line-up that would get me to stop in their showroom. The closest would probably be the IS350, but its dimunitive back seat and lack of a manual transmission are non-starters. Lexus could sell the ES350 for $20k and, in spite of that being an extraordinary deal, I wouldn't buy it. In 2001, I bought a Honda S2000, in 2005 a Porsche 911S. There is no price that would have gotten me to give the Lexus SC430 a serious look. As ggesg indicated, Lexus is more luxury oriented, Acura is more sport oriented.

The closest we ever came to buying a Lexus was when we were SUV shopping last year. We seriously considered the GX, but ended up in a MDX due to the better 7 passenger functionality and the better on-road handling driving dynamics. The GX would have been less expensive, considering it qualified for a tax writeoff, but once again, didn't quite meet our needs and preferences.

I know of some who have cross shopoped the GS and RL, but in that category, I'd be in a 530i or 550i (6-speed stick of course).

flash11 · November 2006

Cheers fedlawman ! From the website.** In fact, it was voted the "Best Luxury Car Interior" by both industry and automotive journalist voters.gee I guess Edmunds journalists need to change their tune*** doesnt hold anything back in performance, either. It boasts a 263 hp V-6 engine and available Intelligent All-wheel drive system to deliver a smooth, powerful and exciting ride.
**Medium Premium Car class hmmm...Entry level Lux-Perf.sedan class maybe ??
***Ward's 2006 Auto Interiors Show hmm..are they a reputable source to judge car interiors-all those Mercedes fans feel slighted now, what was it the interior looks awful
"the has one of the most beautiful cabins in its class, miles ahead of Cadillac and Mercedes."****The Detroit News, 2/8/06

fedlawman, Rocky, could anyone please post an interior and exterior image of the vs. the BMW 335i please ? How do you attach images to this forum ?
Flash 11">

kdshapiro · November 2006

How do you post a picture of the 335 leaving these other cars in the dust? Seems to me the focus of this forum is on performance. BMW has the best drivers interior in the group, I love the simplicity of the dashboard. Simplicity does not mean cheap.

I'm not saying any car should be bought carte-blanche just because, but each car has it's strengths and weaknesses. Each buyer likes different things. I'm not big on "fancy" interiors like Lexus. I like spartan, functional, high quality and driver friendly. To me no car manufacturer does that better than BMW.

fedlawman · November 2006

"Years have marched on..."

Yes, 3 short years ago, the TSX and E46 325i were high on the list in this segment. Now they don't even blip the radar. The bar has been raised a lot in the last couple of years, and the base TL is not as competitive as it used to be (when this thread was in its infancy).

"All of the aforementioned combined make the base TL a "sporty" FWD sedan."

I agree, I think the TL absolutely belongs here. It is not the benchmark of this segment, but on a graph depicting the from "luxury" "sport" continuum, the TL is probably near the top of the bell curve (average) for the segment.

The point I was making is that, upon closer examination of the "DNA," I have decided that the base TL and FWD Lincoln MKZ have a lot more in common than first meets the eye - that, if one is to be excluded, then perhaps we should re-examine the other one more closely.

fedlawman · November 2006

"it was voted the "Best Luxury Car Interior" by both industry and automotive journalist voters."

Calm down Flash. I'm willing to give it the benefit of the doubt for the time being - based on paper stats and photographs. We should reserve judgement until we actually sit in, touch, and drive it for ourselves. Only then will we know if it feels as good as it might look on paper.

Remember, American auto makers are notorious for their hideous interiors and cheap plastics. Most "premium luxury" American cars pale in material and build quality when parked next to a Honda Accord.

Lincoln MKZ:

I don't like it personally, but hey, whatever floats your boat. Here, I think this American car has a much nicer looking interior:

Looks pretty nice, huh? Unfortunately, on paper only. In person, it's just a $20,000 Saturn - and you know it as soon as you actually sit in it.

drewsrx · November 2006

rjorge3,

That picture came from the Japanese Nissan website. They offer that color for the Skyline 350GT, which is our G35.

I am not sure if it will ever be offered here because Infiniti has that color for the US Market M35/M45 & FX35/FX45 and it doesn't sell very well.

But, I hope they offer it...

They also did a better job on the interior lighting for the G35. No more orange, and they added LED ambient lighting.

nyccarguy · November 2006

the last and only sport sedan Lexus ever made was the 1st generation IS. It had great steering feel, tight handling, a taut suspension, RWD, LSD, a nice I6 engine, great looking 5 spoke 17" wheels, and an outside the box gauge cluster (which I happened to like).

People complained it was slow. In addition to being relatively slow, it got terrible gas mileage. People complained the ride was too stiff and jarring (that's how I like it). People complained the interior was too cramped.

So lexus stuffed a 300+ hp v6 under the hood of a softly sprung chassis. they just took all the fun out of the car.

laurasdada · November 2006

While the MKZ interior materials may be top notch, the design, to me screams, "K Car!" I could not live with that interior. While I prefer wood to aluminum, I do not like the lighter woods in any car. YMMV, of course.

And yes, in the picture, the styling of the Aura makes the MKZ look all the more unacceptable.

oldcem · November 2006

Sorry - I disagree. The X-Type may have upset the Jag purists, but, more X's have been sold than any other Jag model to date. Sales may have fell well short of Ford's unrealistic projections, but, about 400K of them went out the door so far. Those of us who own one love 'em.

Regards:
Oldengineer

flash11 · November 2006

Thanks fedlawman but you compared it to a Saturn. I asked to compare it to the BMW, are you afraid we will see the truth ? C'mon show us the interior of the BMW also, side by side. The exterior of the MKZ is gorgeous, K car please...I will get a posting of the MKZ against the BMW in the Current and Future performance sedans forum created by Rocky. I wont have to put up with this hypocrisy there.

Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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