Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

flash11 · November 2006

I love that interior in the MKZ, it looks great with the exterior in Black pearlcoat and chrome rims.

ontop · November 2006

I agree. Don't care for the 'metallic' interior look of the MKZ. The Aura looks so much nicer.

dhamilton · November 2006

I believe I read somewhere that the TL has faster slalom time than the IS350 due to the electronazis.

That home boy that posted a review from the Detroit news should know that that husband and wife team that do the car section for that paper are beyond worthless. They are so worthless that comedians are just saying their names during stand up routines and getting laughs.

Sorry, actually 3 things. What the hell are we doing still hearing this nonsense about that Lincoln? Does it have the fastest 0-Luby's time?

Is their actually anybody besides Rockylee, and his love child flash11, that really believe this car is sporty?
If so, please step forward and have a pie thrown in your face for being an idiot without a village.

oldcem · November 2006

Guess you're gonna be in absolute awe then. My son-in-law owned a Volvo S60 Turbo. After driving my 3.0 X Type he indicated that the Jag had more punch and handled better than his Volvo. He has since replaced the Volvo with a new Acura TL.

blueguydotcom · November 2006

You can scoop up a 335 with gray, beige, black, terra (brownish orange) and lemon leather interiors. Yes, lemon. Most people don't realize this is available but you can get it through special order.

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=86539&d=1159193494

kdshapiro · November 2006

Does the interior define a car in this segment, or does the overall performance? I've seen the 3 series and MKZ side by side, in my estimation no comparison. BMW wins. Sleek and athletic. The MKZ is not that. (I want to add IMO). But that still doesn't mean there will not be a market for this car.

fedlawman · November 2006

"you compared it to a Saturn. I asked to compare it to the BMW, are you afraid we will see the truth?"

Sorry Flash, I showed the interiors to make my point. I didn't realize you were counting on me to perform a task for you.

My point is that you can't tell the QUALITY of the interior from a photo. All a picture can do is help you decide which interior YOU like best. Completely subjective.

Well, here you go...Flash

and Function

Personally, I find the MKZ interior almost grotesque in it's attempt to be premium. I count over 40 buttons on the center stack! It's just trying too hard to be something.

The BMW interior is just pure, simple function over form - as a true cockpit should be.

The MKZ is shouting, "Look at me, look at me!" while the BMW is whispering, "Let's go the long way today."

circlew · December 2006

fed, great line! I try to find as many twisties as possible as the hills whisper back!

Regards,
OW

louiswei · December 2006

I would declare the MKZ "Not Fit for this board" just based on that ancient-looking steering wheel.

03accordman · December 2006

"I would declare the MKZ "Not Fit for this board" just based on that ancient-looking steering wheel."

I second that

Seriously, straight from a truck.

fedlawman · December 2006

Well, I'm just trying to stay unbiased.

I agree that the MKZ's appearance doesn't really have much appeal to a driving enthusiast, but it's target audience is undeniably "entry-level luxury." What we don't know yet is whether or not "performance" is part of the equation.

Doing even more research and giving the topic of the MKZ further thought, I realized that, although it has a lot in common with the TL (humble DNA, upscale features, etc.), the Lexus ES350 also falls into the same category.

Reading the Lexus literature and reviewing the ES350 here at Edmonds, Lexus actually advertisess the size of the brakes, presence of front & rear sway bars, and the fully-independant suspension on the ES350.

We all agree that the ES is not a performance car to be considered in this forum - but the TL is. The MKZ has the potential to be a TL rival at the test track given the sporting nature of the Mazda6 (especially when compared to the Accord), but until we drive the Lincoln, we just don't know.

The enthusiast in me is guessing the MKZ is probably a wanna be ES350, but who knows - the Lincoln LS surprised everyone when it came out...

habitat1 · December 2006

Stevie Wonder would find the MKZ interior ugly to look at.

I know beauty is in the eye of the beholder but I wouldn't want to see the girlfriends or wives of anyone that found that MKZ interior attractive. At least not on a full stomach.

And some people wonder why the Big Three are lsoing money?

qbrozen · December 2006

Your son-in-law's S60 was NOT an S60R. VERY different animals. That would be like saying a 325 and M3 are the same.

qbrozen · December 2006

I had those seats in my 350Z. Nissan had them in the concept Z car, as well (whenever that was ... maybe 2000? 2001?). Nissan calls it burnt orange. I'm not sure if Infiniti would use the same name.

laurasdada · December 2006

Yes, again as shown by comparison, the MKZ interior is just wrong. Although I'm sure that George Lucas loves having his brand on a billboard in the middle of the MKZ center stack!

From what I've read/seen, the MKZ is not a bad car (but is it really worth the premium over a Fusion/Milan?) and I find the exterior to be handsome enough. But, really, other than Town Car drivers or those who look back fondly on the Aries K could admire the interior design of the MKZ??? And again, YMMV.

bigbuck14 · December 2006

I notice you had to get a real life pic of the BMW interior and a factory pic of the MKZ to make the BMW look better.Shame on u.

kdshapiro · December 2006

Believe me he didn't have to. The BMW interior is better if you're a driver.

laurasdada · December 2006

"...a factory pic of the MKZ to make the BMW look better.Shame on u."

? :confuse:

Wouldn't a factory (and by that I'll assume you mean released by the manufacturer) supplied picture put the product in the best light possible? Why would a mfg. release unflattering pictures of their products?

A "real life" picture could show driver/owner induced flaws (e.g. scuff marks, used leather, or in the case of my wife SPILLED COFFEE!!! :mad: ) that would put the interior in a less-flattering light.

No shame here, just folks opinions on the interiors of select automobiles.

bigbuck14 · December 2006

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/MediaNav/year=2007/make=Lincoln/model=MKZ/f- irstNav=Gallery#

Its got a real life pic of MKZ interior see what Im talkin bout.

bigbuck14 · December 2006

Click on the top first drive.

louiswei · December 2006

I don't see any difference, still looks like crap to me...

MKZ:

335i:

bigbuck14 · December 2006

I don't know how to post pics so why don't u post the pic of the MKZ with black interior for me.U probably don't want no one to see it cause u know the MKZ interior looks better.

fedlawman · December 2006

"I notice you had to get a real life pic of the BMW interior and a factory pic of the MKZ to make the BMW look better.Shame on u."

For crying out loud, that's what I get for doing someone a favor. For your info, I got them both from Edmonds.com and I thought I was helping Flash11 out...

If you think the pictures I posted are somehow inaccurate or unflattering, why don't you post some better ones yourself?

Find the picture you like. Right click on it. Choose "properties" and highlight the complete URL. Right click on the highlighted text and choose "copy."

Post a new message here. Put your cursor in the text area and press the "Img" button below. Paste the URL you copied and then push the "Img" button again.

There, now you know how to do it too.

habitat1 · December 2006

"I don't know how to post pics so why don't u post the pic of the MKZ with black interior for me.U probably don't want no one to see it cause u know the MKZ interior looks better."

I think not knowing how to post pics is the least of your problems if you think the MKZ interior looks anything above "nauseous". Looking at that MKZ pic, I would think it would make for an ugly Ford pickup, minivan or SUV. But they actually use that in a Lincoln "entry level luxury performance sedan" and expect to compete with Lexus, BMW or Acura. :confuse: You have got to be kidding. Why don't they just replace the bucket seats with a front bench seat? At least that would give them something unique to try to brag about.

Oh, and by the way, the BMW 335i interior shown has a serious flaw. It's shown with a slushbox. Still doesn't help the pitiful MKZ, but at least the deck wasn't stacked in favor of the BMW.

shipo · December 2006

"Why don't they just replace the bucket seats with a front bench seat? At least that would give them something unique to try to brag about."

That's for sure. It's sad really that there just aren't many cars left on the road that will allow you to execute an SOB right turn.

What! Never heard of an SOB turn? Geez, I'm getting old. ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

louiswei · December 2006

There you go, black MKZ interior compares to TL, G35 and IS350's. With black it still looks like a POS. I actually prefer the woodtrim in the MKZ.

MKZ:

TL:

G35:

IS350:

fedlawman · December 2006

I agree the grey looks better, but still not as fine as the original...

62 Lincoln

louiswei · December 2006

Striking resemblance...

:P

rockylee · December 2006

The Z's aluminum interior is sharp

Rocky

meateater · December 2006

The TL looks better with the quartz interior (grey).

habitat1 · December 2006

It looks like that 62 Lincoln will accomodate a SOB right turn! I am assuming the center armrest flips up. Which makes it a more attractive package than the MKZ.

Is it just me, or is the MKZ dash and center stck perfectly vertical. It's hardly the approprite profile for a driver oriented cockpit in a performance sedan. More like a UPS delivery truck. Looks like you are supposed to stand up while driving.

dhamilton · December 2006

counciling to understand the continued defense of the Lincoln being on this thread.

The Lincoln's interior is like a catheter = painful.

The BMW'S is like viagra = you figure it out.

bishop4 · December 2006

why don't you guys act like you are over 16 and get off this interior spitting contest.

fedlawman · December 2006

"counciling to understand the continued defense of the Lincoln being on this thread."

We are very fond of telling people to hold their opinions about a car unless they have actually driven it.

I have tried to put aside my bias and consider the Lincoln based on it's potential as a member of this segment. Most of us enthusiasts here dismissed the MKZ without the benefit of seeing it in person, let alone driving it. We are quick to toss it aside because as enthusiasts, we are averse to it's appearance, brand identity, and pedestrian underpinnings.

I have already made my point about how similar in concept and DNA the MKZ is to the TL - and I think my argument is sound.

So, here's another observation - the majority of us also dislike the interior and/or exterior styling of the Cadillac CTS. Even with this consensus, we all pretty much agree that the CTS is an "entry-level luxury performance sedan" and a member of this segment - even if it's not our favorite member.

So let's put aside our prejudice and reserve judgement until we see how the MKZ performs. We may hate the way it looks and what it represents, but if any of the Mazda6 responsiveness is hiding under all that chrome and wood, it might just be a demon on the track, OK?

laurasdada · December 2006

Sorry, bigbuck. And again, this is just imo, but while I like the exterior of the MKZ, that entire dash area just ruins what I'm sure is a decent ride. Wrong, wrong, wrong (but maybe not in '62, '72 or '82?). Especially compared with all the other ususal suspects as per the pix posted here. But, your opinion is no less valid than anyone else's. So, vote with you wallet, buy the MKZ and tell us all about it!

laurasdada · December 2006

Agreed, which is why my Abyss Blue TL has the Quartz interior!

autoedu · December 2006

According to GMInsiderNews GM revitalization plan depends largely on Saab competing in the luxury segment. Look like Saab is coming out with best line-up ever, if successful GM will be on the road to recovery

9-3 vs 3series
9-5 vs 5series
9-9 vs 7series

http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40042

9-3 Sedan - Coming in 08 move aside 3-series. Born from Jets, founded by 16 aircraft engineers is really true with this A-pillarless, smooth roofline aerodynamic design

9-3 Convertible - WOW - the legend continues

oldcem · December 2006

Read Car and Driver's review on the S60R, and, owners comments. 300HP is great - but, here in the mountains where I live - the little peaky turbo engine would drive me nuts. Its not a car I'd lay out $40+ grand for.

Regards:
Oldengineer

edwardsf · December 2006

Mr. Fed, I love your posts but please spare us from more photos of the seriously ugly MKZ. The rectangular radio panel looks like the robot on the Jetsons. The big problem though with most American cars is their lack of nimbleness and road manners. This is not because Detroit has failed at it, it is because of the fools in management in Detroit who continue to make cars for Uncle Fred in Des Moine. Opel and Ford Europe have had wonderful cars for years but they are rarely if ever marketed here.

Speaking of employees of Detroit, Flash, Rocky and Pletko glow over ONLY Fords and criticize every other car make out there. Either they are employed by Ford to pump their cars or these are some serious America homers.

Um Ford guys, U.S. cars have never been nimble or good handling performance cars. I had a 68 Mustang - it was great car but my 71 Capri was much more nimble, had better road feel and was much quicker in the twisties. Things have only gotten worse for Detroit since then.

Pat, Can we just get back to the subject of this thread?

dhamilton · December 2006

Those guys are GM homers, not Ford homers.

rockylee · December 2006

Oh I thought I worked for GM, not Ford ? Oh well that's what I was told a few days ago. Perhaps in a few day's some will say I work for both Ford and GM. :surprise:

Rocky

kdshapiro · December 2006

GM will probably end up by battling this out with Infiniti not BMW. To battle it out with BMW, they will have to on up the MKZ.

Now if GM produce a car that was 90% of the performance at 60% of the price, and the car had balance, poise and grace, they might have a shot.

Remember the G35 is the 3 series closest competitor. That is what GM has to aim for. Infinity is considered a brand that is above average in reliability. So it will be interesting to see where GM goes with those statistics.

qbrozen · December 2006

Read Car and Driver's review on the S60R, and owners comments.

First of all, the opinions of others should weigh in very little on your car of choice. Second of all, being a longtime volvo fan and recent owner, I've read tons of owners comments on the dedicated volvo boards. The only negative ones I've ever come across usually center on the 5-speed geartronic models (and, honestly, what the heck were they expecting when they bought the automatic anyway).

As others here have said, you really should hold comments unless you actually drive a vehicle. I suggest you try out one of the less pedestrian volvos and resist passing judgement based on anything you simply read.

Its not a car I'd lay out $40+ grand for.

And alot of folks agree with you, which is why it doesn't sell for anywhere near $40k.

ontop · December 2006

Living pruf of the problems at GM, when a lifer there can't spel and compose sentances moar bettar.

Seriously rocky. Most domestic products just can't compete at certain price points. Do ewe no what I'm sayun?

plekto · December 2006

I personally hate most of what Ford puts out. You'll notice I like Volvo, the bigger late 90s Mercedes, the RX-8, and a few others... but Ford?

A couple of vehicles that don't belong here:
- MKZ - no manual. Sorry - manual is required. Has been from day one.
- Anything else without a manual transmission, NO EXCEPTIONS. Shift-o-matic doesn't cut it either.
- IS250 also is right out(underpowered). The 350 is mainstream luxury - and belong in the next segment up. The older IS300 Sportcross *did* belong here, though - quick and fun.
- The C-class is out as well. Too "190" series. Plastic and fake lux and handles like a slightly improved Civic. Mercedes seems to have abandoned this segment lately.
- The Volvo S40 is a joke - toss out as well. The S60, though, definately belongs like the CTS - it may not be a BMW, but it still makes the cut.

We should also add in specific models that are not quite sedans as well, if, like the IS300 Sportcross, it's the only manual equipped version of the vehicle. For instance, a small 4 door crossover *might* apply(though I've never seen one that handles like a car instead of a truck) or something that's a 4 door hatchback like the older Saabs used to be. Or even a 2-door might work, like the older Mercedes C230K. It was drastically different from the other models in how it drove and yet was virtually identical inside to the sedan.

edwardsf · December 2006

Indeed, you could work for a consulting company that contracts with both reamaining dinosaurs to defend their awful U.S. made cars on Carspace and other forums. Not that I am saying that Ford and/or GM are getting their moneys worth. But that would not be new - look at their stock price.

BTW, weren't you the Yugo spokesman a couple of decades ago?

kdshapiro · December 2006

That was one of the your more balanced posts. I disagree about talking about anything that isn't a sedan though. We could then add vehicles such as the X3 because it does a great sedan imitation.

Nah. It really should be a sedan, although sometimes we talk about coupes.

fedlawman · December 2006

The IS300 sedan was also available with a 5-speed MT - just not during the first year.

circlew · December 2006

Let's talk about the top of the entry level segment with the S4. Price tops $51K with premium+audio upgrade. How does this rate with this group vs. the other candidates here? I assume it's at the top end but does this additional price deliver the commensurate performance? I ssume this is competition for the M3 but the new version will not debut until '08.

For now, let's here any feedback on your thoughts vs. 335, A4, TL IS, cts, c-class.

kdshapiro · December 2006

With MSRP starting at $47.5K it's the most expensive of the bunch. The 335i starts at $40K. The 4.2L is the fastest in the bunch and will outrun the CTS-V, especially with mods. This car is more of an M3 buster than a IS350/335i buster.

Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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