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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • pearlpearl Member Posts: 336
    Excellent post. Agree completely, and I own a BMW which I love and which has been the best car I have ever owned.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    And an extremely poor selling hanger-on that can be had for the low 20s. It's a screaming deal. Just not a fun car to drive. It's totally un-mazda-like in how it drives and feels (heavy, muted, slow-to-respond). Love Mazdas and the speed6 is the only Mazda I think just plain old sucks.
  • dafreak1dafreak1 Member Posts: 61
    Test drove the 335i today. I loved it, blew the G35 away. I have to have this car even though I was set to get the G35. Dealer told me 1K over invoice for the sedan and 2K over for the coupe. I cant find invoice pricing on the coupe though so I am not sure where that pricing puts me. I am a little leary though after reading the overheating problems with the 335. Anyone have any real world experience with this issue? What an awesome machine!!!
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Hey dafreak, what happen to "the best value" :P

    No worries man, just playing with ya. I like the 335i too and definitely would pick it over the G if price is not too much of a concern.
  • dafreak1dafreak1 Member Posts: 61
    Well, I still think the G35 is a great value. I was surprised at how much I liked the BMW though. It felt more solid to me and more fun. It left me not wanting all the luxuries of the G35 whereas the G35 made me want them in the BMW. I am not sure i can explain it correctly but there definitely is a difference and I will probably end up paying the extra money for it.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Oh of course you'll have to pay extra bucks for it.

    What kind of package does the one has that you have your eyes set on?

    I am also expecting an "I told you so" post from either blueguy and kdshapiro in the near future. :P
  • dafreak1dafreak1 Member Posts: 61
    Not sure yet, weighing the options. Any suggestions? Also, am I better off leasing or owning? I can do either but it seems that most people lese BMW's.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Maybe those BMW guys have better answers for the leasing/buying question. However, as for me, I don't do lease, but apparently it's a very popular way to own a BMW.

    As for options, it depends on what you want. Navi? Heated seats? Sport suspension? Auto/manual? Real leather? I am pretty sure you would want comfort access right?
  • dafreak1dafreak1 Member Posts: 61
    My last two cars have had navi so I would like it although I am willing to give it up. Heated seats, yes. All 335i's have sport suspensions (I think). I would not add the sport package though as it would change my tire set up (I live in Chicago). Auto. Dont care about the leather. Comfort access would be nice too. I need to figure outthe best configuration.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Not all 335i have sport suspension. I test drove 2 335i last week and one of them don't have it.

    I guess your best option is:

    comfort access + cold weather package + sport package + Auto tranny (paddle shifter only comes with sport package).

    If you need bluetooth then it'll be like:

    comfort access + cold weather package + sport package + premium package + Auto tranny.

    Add Navi to each setup if you wish.

    BMW website has a very good "build your own" function and I strongly suggestion you to check it out.
  • dafreak1dafreak1 Member Posts: 61
    Yes, on BMW site now. I am pretty sure all cars come with sport suspension and that the sport package is the option.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Here are what the Sport Package includes:

    * Star Spoke (Styling# 162) light-alloy wheels, 18 x 8.0 front, 18x 8.5 rear; 225/40R-18 front, 255/35R-18 rear run-flat* performance tires*
    * 8-way power front sport seats (includes 2-way headrests and thigh support)
    * 3-spoke leather-wrapped multi-function sport steering wheel with audio and accessory phone* controls
    * Sport suspension calibration
  • dafreak1dafreak1 Member Posts: 61
    Ah, I have been configuiring using the coupe, you the sedan. All the coupes have the sport suspension included but not the sport package.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    After all this debating ...a slushbox in a 335i? :surprise: :confuse:

    Come to DC and my 8 year old daughter will teach you how to shift. She mastered in in my former S2000 from the passenger seat when she was 4. You'll have to work the clutch, but she never missed a 1-2, 2-3, 3-2, 2-1 shift (the most I tried keeping within my 25-30 mph limit).

    Now I know why you didn't respond to my last post. Of course a TL automatic is a dog. But what is your excuse for going with slush in a 335i? It's got the best 6-speed in the ELLPS segment. I suspect even the GEICO caveman could shift it in his sleep. :cry:
  • dafreak1dafreak1 Member Posts: 61
    You make a me laugh. I love a manual and it is what I grew up with and most of my cars have been such (not my last two). However, there are a couple of reasons for looking at the slushbox. One, my wife (unfortunately) does not know how to drive a stick. I have offered to teach her and she gives me that look. In the end she would let me teach her. With that in mind the performance numbers between the slush and the stick are such that there is no real reason to go with one over the other, other then the pure enjoyment of the manual. I would love to get the stick but do I give up the car if I can't?
  • dafreak1dafreak1 Member Posts: 61
    I like the configuration without the slush though. I can everyhting else I want for under 45K.
  • laurasdadalaurasdada Member Posts: 4,686
    "Of course a TL automatic is a dog."

    Wearing my GEICO caveman costume while leaning on my slushed TL I am giving you a look of disdain...

    "Of course a TL automatic is a dog."

    Yes, a sleek, slick, (and non-abused, of course) fast Greyhound. With perforated leather seats and a great stereo!

    '21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)

  • shouldiwaitshouldiwait Member Posts: 14
    You are a little misinformed. It seems quite proper to compare one sports sedan to another, same category and class seems fair to me. You are biased when you thought your TL was faster and handles better than the Type S. The latter has more horsepower and has a revised and improved suspension. I had an S2000 and yet I thought this Type S handles quite well. As far as it feeling slower than your TL, you must allow a car to break in a little to feel the added power- perhaps after 5 or so thousand miles. In addition, I think you felt restraint from pushing when you test drove it and I am sure you did not use the paddle shift sport mode.

    Regarding the FWD and RWD comparison, the latter generally handles much better. However, you need to read the upcoming Road and Track magazine on the IS350, Type S and the new G comparison. The Type S actually did very well.

    My main point is about what you get for driving experience/pleasure and money. I am very happy with my decision. I still own the 2000 BMW and I would not buy another BMW from a financial standpoint. I am a lawyer and can easily afford a 335 but logic tends to dictate my decision.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Dafreak if you can swing the time or are in need of a vacation, you can get a screaming deal by getting your lease via european delivery. We're talking less than $500 a month, easy.

    Also

    Coupe: http://internetaddictionhelp.com/files/07_3_Cpe.pdf

    Sedans: http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=158308
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Thank god my fiancee can drive stick. I suggested gettinng DSG on my next car for her. She promptly drove my 330i manual for the rest of the day and told me she may own two automatics but she can do manual if pressed.

    Two best reasons to pick the manual:
    1. Cheaper at purchase
    2. cheaper to repair - thousands cheaper. A bad tranny today costs 4-6k to repair. A bad manual - less than 1000.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    3 - you can push-start a manual in an emergency.
    4 - you can tow a manual easily.
    5 - a failing transmission will give you months of warning as opposed to *blocks*. Automatics literally can fail in the space of half a mile. Then it's a rock. The manual can be shifted carefully without a clutch AT ALL, in fact - if you know the gearing and shift points. And most cars can be driven to the shop just fine in 2nd gear.
    6 - you drive the car instead of it driving you. Case in point - a downhill sweeping curve. The automatic will upshift while you can keep it in third to power up the hill in a few hundred feet after the turn(typical of many mountain roads)
    7 - better gearing ratios. Zero lag-time to spool up to the proper speed for quick transitions.
    8 - the ability to get by with a lot smaller engine. Better mpg and less weight.

    And, yes, it's tons cheaper to fix. $350-500 plus labor will get you a racing clutch put in most cars. A typical clutch job runs about 500-600, so $1000 is a BMW or something overkill for most cars.

    The only two things you gain fom an automatic are:
    1 - idiot-proofing - anyone can drive it. (also, there's no physical or mental reason a woman can't learn as well as a man how to use a manual)
    2 - not having to shift in a traffic-jam. Note - I counted - two traffic jams on Friday here in L.A. I shifted 4 times in the first one and 6 times in the second. They both covered more than ten miles. I just planned and kept my speed at where I didn't need to shift endlessly. The idea that you need to shift 50+ times... someone's been feeding you a line.
  • tpjcourtneytpjcourtney Member Posts: 34
    To point 6: FYI, in manual mode the BMW auto will hold a gear in this situation and will rev match on downshifts as well.

    I own a stick, but it's a really good auto transmition on the 335i, not your granpa's auto.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Imgine the repair and maintenance cost on that 6 speed automatic in 5-6 years. Yikes. :O A buddy with an older 540i paid over 6k to get his automatic fixed. Call BMW and ask how much repairs would be for that tricky-dicky, cool auto in the e92s.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    "With that in mind the performance numbers between the slush and the stick are such that there is no real reason to go with one over the other, other then the pure enjoyment of the manual."

    You need more reasons? Re-read the other posts that follow. Just because the "performance numbers" look similar, the driving experience with a manual is indeed, much more enjoyable. Especially in a car like the 335i.

    "In the end she would let me teach her."

    Bingo, you have your answer. You don't need to "give up the car". You don't need to file for divorce. If she's willing to learn now, teach her. There are far too many examples of "my wife refuses" that have resulted in premature castrations of stick drivers. Don't become one of them.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    "Of course a TL automatic is a dog."

    Sorry, I didn't properly context/qualify that. I don't personally believe a TL automatic is a "dog", even though I strongly prefer the 6-speed. I was giving "dafreak" grief for his statement that his (automatic) TL is a dog. I'm not sure why he thinks so.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    You are biased when you thought your TL was faster and handles better than the Type S.

    I think you are the one that might be a little biased. The 2004 TL 6-speed which I have included as standard equipment a stiffer sport suspension than the automatic, the same Brembo brakes that are now on the TL-S and optional (which I have) high performance summer tires. It is my understanding that the previous TL 6-speed suspension was softened slightly for the current TL-S. Perhaps it is "improved" for comfort, but definitely not handling. I stand behind my claim that my 2004 TL 6-spped handles as well or better than the current TL-S, especially one with all season tires, albeit there isn't that much of a difference. If you want to claim that the TL-S is a little quieter and more comfortable over rough roads, I'll concede that.

    Regarding speed, I didn't take out a stopwatch, but as best I could tell, the horsepower increase of about 10% is MORE than completely offset, in my opinion, of going from a 6-speed to slightly heavier automatic with it's resulting drivetrain loss. And yes, I did try the paddle shifters. The TL-S automatic is just that, an automatic, torque converter and all. The paddle shifters do nothing to make up for the fact that the torque converter eats power and is slower than a manual transmission to fully engage. If Acura had put a BMW style SMG or Audi style DSG instead of an automatic, the end result would likely be different.

    I concede that the TL-S 6-speed would be quicker than the former TL 6-speed, since it does have 28 more horsepower.

    You mentioned one thing I am very curious about. As a former S2000 owner myself, I was very pleased with the TL 6-speeds gearbox having some of the same precision and feel as the S2000's short throw 6-speed. Why in the world did you get a TL-S automatic after having owned an S2000?
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    dafreak1,

    Good luck in advance. FWIW, I would lease for 3 reasons: warrantee period corresponds with making sure you are always covered (don't worry about over heat), you can afford a more expensive car without locking in the total cost of ownership, you get to experience a new car at lease end.

    As for options, sport suspension is part of the SP. Get it if you want the ultimate seats and a real performance. You can stretch the options in a lease also.

    Regards,
    OW
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    Or buy it and sell it at the end of the warranty period. Then buy another new car if you want one then. I'm not so sure leasing is a good idea for anyone unless it is more advantageous than buying for tax reasons.
    But I bet there is another board for this, right?
  • jblaze13jblaze13 Member Posts: 152
    I believe dafreak stated he lives in Chicago. Our traffic is plenty reason to stray away from the manual.
  • goodegggoodegg Member Posts: 905
    Where does leasing provide any more of a tax benefit over owning? Especially in the first few years of use.

    Ownership also affords one better flexibility to get out of the car when they want, how they want, and to whom they want. If you're gonna only drive 10,000 a year or less and want a new car every 3-4 years, then yes, lease.

    I think the included maintenance for a BMW is a big selling point. But isn't that offered to those who buy instead of lease as well?
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Leasing, if you own a business you write off the entire payment,

    Ownership and resale after 3 years (is he financing or buying outright)? is just flat out silly. BMW supports their leases in a big way.

    Included maintenance is for EVERY BMW. Leasing is the same as buying as far as BMW corporate is concerned. BMWFS leases the car, just as BMWFS buys the car and loans the customer the cash.

    Do some spreadsheets guys. Buying a brand new car off the lot and reselling 3 years later = burning money. You're paying full TTL on a purchase and for those first two years - even if you pay cash - you're so in the negative equity that car's a weight around your neck. Buy a 40k BMW (44k down then) and the moment you drive off the lot you're immediately out 7-8k.

    Buy and hold for 6 years - that pays off. Buy and resell in 3 years...silly.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    If one's to buy just make sure of one thing:

    The car is PAID OFF before you either trade it in or sell it.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Trade it in is almost always a negative for the seller and a big, big positive for the dealership.
  • goodegggoodegg Member Posts: 905
    Leasing, if you own a business you write off the entire payment

    Yea, but the interest on the loan payment is probably the same or higher than the lease payment. Also no money down, flexibility to get out of the contract easily and quickly without taking a bath.

    You pay full tax title and tags on a lease contract also. And being locked into a lease is as much 'weight around your neck' as having the negative equity, which is minimal if you buy a car that has excellent resale.

    For a business yes, lease the vehicle. For personal use there are a lot of advantages to owning the car instead of just renting it if you're gonna keep it at least 4 - 5 years. I've done both. I doubt I'd lease again unless the contract is subsidized and laden with incentives.
  • tubulustubulus Member Posts: 25
    Any reason? Is it hated on this forum? I've been shopping for a car in this class, and I think the A4 seems the right choice. I'm not much of a "driving enthusiast," just looking for something a little more fun to drive than the Accord I've been driving. Loved the 328xi, but it's just so much more expensive. I liked the G35x, but hate the mileage and not-quite-as-nice look. The only thing I am worried about on the A4 is maintenance costs - I drive 20k a year, and worry that it will add up quickly once I am out of warranty. Is everyone here just down on it because it's not a 6?
  • nkeennkeen Member Posts: 313
    re You mentioned one thing I am very curious about. As a former S2000 owner myself, I was very pleased with the TL 6-speeds gearbox having some of the same precision and feel as the S2000's short throw 6-speed.

    I had a 2004 TL 6-spd also. Liked the TL's engine, chunky gearbox action and great stereo; disliked the on/off switch clutch, uncommunicative steering which loaded up heavily and asymmetrically, it's tendency to wander around if not watched constantly, it's flatspotting std EL42s. I drove other loaner auto TLs that weren't so bad, but didn't like mine. I now have the lowliest E90 with ZSP which I enjoy getting into every morning. It's just a sweet car. I always thought my TL was a bit of a pig to drive -- a seriously fast pig, but a pig nonetheless. Having intended to keep it for the duration, I got rid of it and took a soaking. The lesson here for me -- a 335i would be great, but in the end there's more to it than horsepower, and I just can't afford it, and travel where I want to, etc., so that's that. One car can be a sweetie, the next one in line just never feels right whatever you do to fix it.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Maybe in your state you pay full ttl. in california you only pay tax on the monthly payment.

    also, interest on a car loan is minute compared to an entire lease payment.

    bwm backs their leases with crazy incentives. i've seen 5 series leases for less than $400 a month and 0 down.
  • nkeennkeen Member Posts: 313
    Also drove the TSX -- much nicer, more agile car than the TL.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    "I had a 2004 TL 6-spd also. Liked the TL's engine, chunky gearbox action and great stereo; disliked the on/off switch clutch, uncommunicative steering which loaded up heavily and asymmetrically, it's tendency to wander around if not watched constantly, it's flatspotting std EL42s"

    It just goes to show you that everyone can have different impressions and opinions of the same car. On your positives, I agree with you on the gearbox and free revving engine. I am not that impressed with the stereo. Seems like it is clarity and power challenged.

    On your negatives, normal steering is not a problem with me as much as torque steer and wheel hop under hard acceleration. Also, I have no problems with the clutch. The tires I had were the high performance Bridgestone Potenza's rather than the standard Tourenza's. No flat spotting issues, but wore out after 19,000 miles and sucked in even light snow.

    The 330i w/ZSP is a very nice car and the TL is definitely a rung down from that car in steering and handling. But so are a few of the other RWD alternatives such as the IS and G35.

    I do wonder why you took a "soaking" to get rid of your 2004 TL. I bought mine for $33k and at nearly 3 years and 24k miles, I think I could get around $25k, if I'm to believe the Washington post ads for 2004's w/ navigation in the $25k-$28k+ asking prices. In the last 15 months, I've only put 4k miles on the car, as I have found our "fun" car (911S) to be a darn good daily driver. Perhaps I'll go fishing and see what I can get.
  • ontopontop Member Posts: 279
    Interest is miunte on a car loan? Huh? Run an amortization schedule and relook at that assertion. Maybe in the later years of a loan, but the first year is a bunch of interest.

    Leasing almost always sucks unless you get great incentives to take the plunge.
  • laurasdadalaurasdada Member Posts: 4,686
    In the words of Pete Townsend, "You are forgiven, you are forgiven..." Can you hear the music in your mind? If not, just pop the CD into the ELS in the TL...

    Long day of work, watching football, household chores, etc. so please forgive the obscure reference above. But at least the Pats are on their way to San Diego. Now that reminds me of another song. But, as it is not on any Who album, I'll just move on...

    '21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)

  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,373
    Did anybody see the IS commercial during this afternoon's Giants/Eagles (I don't really want to call it a game, because the score didn't tell the whole story) debacle? They ran a commercial for the IS350 showing off its straight line acceleration. They showed one IS350 getting dropped from a helicopter and another one racing on tarmac through a target trying to avoid IS350 #1 being dropped on it (Uh, yes boss I can't come to work today because a car fell on me). Even Lexus knows their IS is only good for Straight Line performance. Truth in Advertising I guess :P

    Blueguy: You've got to be pretty hopped up for next week's Bolts vs. Pats game. Now that my Giants have been put out of their misery, it is the game I'll be watching next week!

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • skobolaskobola Member Posts: 207
    Where did you see the 5-series going for $400/month with 0 down? Provided that it is an about $45k car with residual of 60% (3 years), it would be very, very difficult to achieve such a price... So, I would be very interested to find a deal like that! Please, let me know. Thanks.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    skobla - ED 2 year leases on 5 series cars. Check bimmerfest. When BMW runs leases with inflated residuals (mid 70s on 2 year leases) and super low MFs (less than a percent equivalent) you end up with stupid cheap leases.

    Consider ED is usually 85% of MSRP and a 75% residual means you're only paying for 10% of the car's value (figure 5-6k). Finally add, in the 1k on the BMWCCA rebate and you'll see leases for under $400. Hard to believe but people get them.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    "I had a 2004 TL 6-spd also. Liked the TL's engine, chunky gearbox action and great stereo; disliked the on/off switch clutch, uncommunicative steering which loaded up heavily and asymmetrically, it's tendency to wander around if not watched constantly, it's flatspotting std EL42s"

    It just goes to show you that everyone can have different impressions and opinions of the same car. On your positives, I agree with you on the gearbox and free revving engine. I am not that impressed with the stereo. Seems like it is clarity and power challenged.


    I used to have a 1998 A4 and bought a 2005 TL (auto, unfortunately - wife doesn't like stick).

    I agree with a few of the posts. The TL has been more reliable than the A4 as of 36K miles. Pros/cons:

    - TL very reliable
    - No rattles initially, some started around 25K
    - Standard Michelin tires are fine, I probably have about 5-10K more on them
    - Stereo IMHO is overrated. I had Bose in the Audi.
    - Ride is pleasantly firm but wallows in turns when bumps are present. Steering not precise enough.
    - Bluetooth wasn't a big consideration, has turned into a fantastic plus
    - Nav system is another big plus
    - Handling not comparable to the Audi. I feel I'm driving in more of a luxo-cruiser than a sport sedan.

    In summary, while I like the car it doesn't inspire a lot of passion. I'm going to keep it for probably 100K and then move to a sportier sedan with a manual. :P
  • readerreaderreaderreader Member Posts: 253
  • nkeennkeen Member Posts: 313
    I do wonder why you took a "soaking" to get rid of your 2004 TL.

    Not that much of a soaking -- a trade but in that ballpark. Resale is good on the TL, but any trade after 18 - 24 mos is hardly a winner though.

    Mine is a 325i. The TL has considerably more power, but that differential was addressed somewhat when the revised SEA criteria forced the TL down from 270 to 258 (while it bumped the Corvette up -- here's to the wounded heart of good old Chevrolet!).
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    The 2008' Cadillac CTS............I'm not trying to stir the pot but would like to here from a generally anti-gm crowds response to it is all ?????

    Rocky
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    I'm not trying to stir the pot either.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Even Lexus knows their IS is only good for Straight Line performance.

    I don't think that statement is entirely true.

    Lexus knows their IS is VERY good at straight line performance and ALSO good at other areas. By the way, R&T's editors apparently agree when they rank IS ahead of G35S and TL-S in both steering and handling.
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