Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

qbrozen · January 2007

if we're going outside of ELLPS, number 1 could also be a Legacy GT.

but, yeah, based on who posted it, its an ms6.

qbrozen · January 2007

its going to depend on where the numbers came from.

For instance, I would guess #3 is the 335, but if that's the correct guess, that MSRP is jacked up with options.

kdshapiro · January 2007

Cars should be designed not to catch fire when in a crash period. Every car I've ever seen burning on the road, has been some piece of ill-maintained junk, where the fire was doing the owner a favor.

"This could be the most unintelligent statement in world history. Please enlighten us, your holiness, with why Japanese and German cars will never catch fire."

Actually your post contributed a lot to the forum.

pucks · January 2007

"Cars should be designed not to catch fire when in a crash period. Every car I've ever seen burning on the road, has been some piece of ill-maintained junk, where the fire was doing the owner a favor".

Does this answer my question? No. You have no stats to back up your claim, just a bias towards the car. Judging by the comments from some of the regulars, your post was greeted with scorn, as it should be. Your credibility is zero because of posts like that one.

blueguydotcom · January 2007

Seen several late model cars burning. No big deal...it's to be expected that objects with combustible materials and lots of friction/heat/moving parts will catch fire eventually.

fedlawman · January 2007

MazdaSpeed 6 is definitely the first car on your list. But why include a car with cloth seats and no moonroof on a ist of "luxury cars?"

Also, you forgot to include the $28,920 Legacy GT and the $28,655 Impala SS (which both come with heated leather seats and a moonroof for under $30,000).

The only way to get leather and moonroof on the Mazda is to get the Grand Touring model and add an optional moonroof. Price - $31,220.

The European Delivery MSRP for a 335i sedan is $35,990. I suspect most folks on this forum would pay the extra $4770 for the extra refinement, performance, and features of the Bimmer.

joe131 · January 2007

Mazdaspeed 6 can probably be bought at your local dealership for around $6000 to $8,000 under MSRP. The cars on the list were reported in magazines. I could not tell them which cars or trim levels to test so I did not include some I would have liked to.
Here, I'll add one more to the list:

MSRP 0-60 1/4 mi top 70-0 skid cityMPG

$28,555.00 5.4 14.0 149 155 0.87 20
$34,620.00 5.3 14.0 137 177 0.87 20
$45,720.00 4.9 13.6 144 160 0.87 19
$36,000.00 5.2 13.9 158 160 0.87 16
$35,565.00 5.6 14.2 145 169 0.78 17
$54,720.00 6.9 15.3 150 176 0.82 19
$40,000.00 5.1 13.7 142 167 0.85 19
$45,055.00 5.5 14.2 132 175 0.83 20

mz6greyghost · January 2007

Cars should be designed not to catch fire when in a crash period. Every car I've ever seen burning on the road, has been some piece of ill-maintained junk, where the fire was doing the owner a favor.

All cars, including the dreaded American cars like Cadillac, are designed to prevent MOST fires/injuries/deaths from MOST accidents. Are they perfect? Far from it, but so is every other automaker. BMW and Lexus can't prevent everything, including fires. The risk of any accident is one that is assumed when getting behind the wheel of, or being a passenger in, any moving vehicle, not just the American makes.

frisconick · January 2007

Cars generate tremendous, surprising more don't burn.

blueguydotcom · January 2007

335i sedan ED price is 33805 (including shipping) before dealer profit - so add a grand and you're at 34805.

http://bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=158308

designman · January 2007

"...from a "beauty" sort of speak perspective I would rather to have those 18"s."

That's what's ruining todays' suspensions. They have to soften them up to accomodate the low-profile tires. They have upset the optimal relationship between suspension and tires. I don't even see what's so good looking about big wheels. They look like Conestoga wagon wheels.

joe131 · January 2007

Ok. Here's a couple more to make 10. Any more guesses?

Columns are price, 0-60 time in seconds, 1/4 mile time, top speed, braking 70-0, lateral acceleration skidpad, EPA city mpg

MSRP 0-60 1/4 mi top 70-0 skid cityMPG

$28,555.00 5.4 14.0 149 155 0.87 20
$34,620.00 5.3 14.0 137 177 0.87 20
$45,720.00 4.9 13.6 144 160 0.87 19
$36,000.00 5.2 13.9 158 160 0.87 16
$35,565.00 5.6 14.2 145 169 0.78 17
$54,720.00 6.9 15.3 150 176 0.82 19
$40,000.00 5.1 13.7 142 167 0.85 19
$45,055.00 5.5 14.2 132 175 0.83 20
$35,870.00 5.9 14.6 152 170 0.91 20
$32,064.00 7.1 15.4 142 170 0.?? 20

shipo · January 2007

"They have to soften them up to accomodate the low-profile tires."

I read a study three or four years back that tested a couple of different cars with wheel/tire sets ranging from 16" through 20" (all with the same rolling diameter as the factory spec for the car, and all roughly the size of a typical 3-Series BMW wheel/tire) to see if they could quantify the better handling aspects of larger wheels and lower profile tires. IIRC, the rather surprising result was that 17" was deterined to be the optimal size, and beyond that, the extra unsprung weight started negatively affecting the handling characteristics.

I have no idea if suspension tuning combined with light weight wheels (expensive) and tires will offset the findings of the study that I read, but there it is.

Best Regards,
Shipo

designman · January 2007

IIRC, the rather surprising result was that 17" was determined to be the optimal size...

Yes, that's also what I've heard from the track rats and the E46 3-series. If you really want a good feel for what has become of this, try a 996 911 with 17s, then a 997 911 that is bling laden with 19s, both with and without the electronic damping they call PASM. I don't think BMW has gone to that extreme yet with the suspension and I think I would choose the smallest wheel I could get on a E90/92 3-series... without runflats of course. On the Porsches, the smallest wheels get you a mushy ride, for a Porsche that is.

piason · January 2007

Move to Japan! :mad:

frisconick · January 2007

How do you know I am not in Japan? :P

qbrozen · January 2007

335i sedan ED price is 33805 (including shipping) before dealer profit - so add a grand and you're at 34805.

STOP! Yer killin' me!

or... i should say ... you're going to make my wife kill me. that bargain is so hard to get out of my head. ;b

I keep promising myself I'm buying an inexpensive beater after my current lease is up.

plekto · January 2007

If you read the original post that stated this discussion/flamewar/diatribe-fest, a manual transmission was a non-negotiable item.

So the IS350 is out. So are any of the others that don't offer it as standard equipment.

blueguydotcom · January 2007

I'm in the same boat. I keep repeating to myself: GTI, Mini, Mazdaspeed3. Then I think about 0-60 in under 5 seconds...argh.

Logic dictates a GTI - room for a kid, easy exit/entry, DSG for the lazy-fiancee - but desire screams: 4.8 seconds before you chip the 335i!

habitat1 · January 2007

"If you really want a good feel for what has become of this, try a 996 911 with 17s, then a 997 911 that is bling laden with 19s, both with and without the electronic damping they call PASM."

Bling laden? :surprise: Those are fighting words! :mad:

Seriously though, my (bling-less) 2005 911S w/ 19" wheels and 295/30 series rear tires does not ride much harsher (with PASM set on normal) than my 2004 TL 6-speed w/ 17" wheels and 245/45 tires. And it rides much smoother, with no more body roll (i.e. none), than my friends former 2001 996 Turbo with 18" wheels and 285/35 series tires. A few rides and drives in that 996 Turbo required a trip to the dentist to have my fillings reset.

That said, I would agree with the general comment that many, if not most, manufacturers have not advanced their suspensions to the same degree they have increased their wheel size. The former involves real engineering, the latter appeals to image over substance. In the ELLPS segment, only BMW, in my opinion, has the suspension to match anything larger than 17" wheels.

P.S. Louiswei - all in good fun.

Even I thought my old Supra on 14" wheels looked out of proportion. Within 3 years they were up to 16's or 17's.

joe131 · January 2007

From Car&Driver magazine.

price MSRP 0-60 1/4 mi top 70-0 skid EPA city

$28,555.00 5.4 14.0 149 155 0.87 20
$34,620.00 5.3 14.0 137 177 0.87 20
$45,720.00 4.9 13.6 144 160 0.87 19
$36,000.00 5.2 13.9 158 160 0.87 16
$35,565.00 5.6 14.2 145 169 0.78 17
$54,720.00 6.9 15.3 150 176 0.82 19
$40,000.00 5.1 13.7 142 167 0.85 19
$45,055.00 5.5 14.2 132 175 0.83 20
$35,870.00 5.9 14.6 152 170 0.91 20
$32,064.00 7.1 15.4 142 170 ?.?? 20

Mazdaspeed 6
Subaru Legacy GT spec B
BMW 335i
Infinity G 35
Dodge Charger
BMW 530
Lexus IS 350
Mercedes C 350 sport
Acura TL
Lexus IS 250

habitat1 · January 2007

Does C&D indicate whether these are auto or manual transmissions? Which model TL is #9 - base or TL-S (2007).

Thanks, by the way, for an interesting quiz Mr. Trebek. I did get #6 correct, although I think I forgot to give my answer in the form of a questions as: "What is the BMW 530i, Alex?"

joe131 · January 2007

I don't know about the trim or TL transmission. I only memorized the numbers as I read the articles. Nice skidpad # though.
You get full points for the 530i.
Alex has always been way too uptight about that sort of thing. I'm his brother, Joe Trebek.

louiswei · January 2007

That's the base TL's. The test date is 10/05, by then the TL-S hasn't been out yet.

louiswei · January 2007

From Inside Line:

"For us, the 2007 Honda Civic Si Sedan reminds us of the BMW M3 E36-series sedan. The coupe might get the billboard signage, but the sedan proves to be a more mature piece, a grown-up performance car instead of just a hot rod."

Full Story

jimmy81 · January 2007

Pardon my neophyte status, but how do you get the car to the States and how much does it cost? Can you select your port of entry or does it need to be Baltimore or Charleston? And is the car ready to register and title just like any other BMW sold here? What about sales tax?

Thanks in advance.

jamesspot · January 2007

All part of the deal - shipping and "redelivery" is just like any other purchase - you just own and drive your car in Europe. Comes with free insurance (as part of the deal) while you drive there, too.

All you really have to do is take delivery in Munich and drive it a couple of miles down the road to the drop off. Your choice if you want to spend a month cruising the Autobahn, crossing the alps, touring Tuscanny or the French vineyards in your new BMW.

shipo · January 2007

Grasshopper,

All of your questions will be answered here:

http://www.bmwusa.com/bmwexperience/europeandelivery/

Have fun. ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

blueguydotcom · January 2007

I drove an 06 Si coupe. Low power/no torque, skateboard ride, zero luxury and crazy slow. No xenons either - can't live without 'em.

I'll look at the sedan but given how lousy the Si is vis-a-vis the GTI, Mini and just basic Mazda3, I sincerely doubt it will intrigue me.

blueguydotcom · January 2007

The normal 695 shipping that ALL BMW customers pay. Pick it up in munich, drive it in europe and drop it off at one of a bunch of locations.

The car is registered just like any other car: all is handled by the dealership. Salestax is based on the purchase price in your state - the dealer sold you the car in your state, but you picked it up elsewhere. Same nexus laws apply.

Your port of entry is you dealership. After you drop the car off in europe for re-delivery it gets shipped with all the other bmws to your nearest port and on to your dealer. Your dealer calls you when they get the car. you pick it up as if you had ordered.

joe131 · January 2007

Acura TL type S with a 6 speed manual is #11. Costs $3000 more and is a little quicker than older TL tested by C&D.

price MSRP 0-60 1/4 mi top 70-0 skid EPA city

$28,555.00 5.4 14.0 149 155 0.87 20
$34,620.00 5.3 14.0 137 177 0.87 20
$45,720.00 4.9 13.6 144 160 0.87 19
$36,000.00 5.2 13.9 158 160 0.87 16
$35,565.00 5.6 14.2 145 169 0.78 17
$54,720.00 6.9 15.3 150 176 0.82 19
$40,000.00 5.1 13.7 142 167 0.85 19
$45,055.00 5.5 14.2 132 175 0.83 20
$35,870.00 5.9 14.6 152 170 0.91 20
$32,064.00 7.1 15.4 142 170 ?.?? 20
$38,795.00 5.7 14.3 147 999 0.91 20

Mazdaspeed 6
Subaru Legacy GT spec B
BMW 335i
Infinity G 35
Dodge Charger
BMW 530
Lexus IS 350
Mercedes C 350 sport
Acura TL
Lexus IS 250
Acura TL type S (Road & Track, 70-0 braking not given)

ivan_99 · January 2007

...the rather surprising result was that 17" was deterined to be the optimal size, and beyond that, the extra unsprung weight started negatively affecting the handling characteristics.

My engineer brother told me the same thing a few years ago. He actually said most people shouldn't go bigger than 16 if they care about performance.

He set up his auto-cross car with very light 17's.

Though I must admit...I like the look of larger wheels; and part of me thinks they must be better handling as well

circlew · January 2007

I just heard yesterday while I was traveling about a horrific crash where I live in NJ.

There were 4 deaths reported, 3 teens in a new CTS and one woman in a van. The CTS burnt to the ground after impact. The kids all died on impact, however. My prayers go out for all families involved.

I will try to find out regarding the fire.

All cars will burn. Only when there is no oxygen, fuel or heat, we will find the solution.

Regards,
OW

tpjcourtney · January 2007

Better off depends on your ultimate goal for the car. I will assume this is an E65 5 series CPO your talking about.

You will get more room in the 5 although the E90 3 series has almost the same size interior as the older E39 5 series.

The 335i will be much quicker and more agile but slightly rougher ride quality.

335 you can choose idrive or not to idrive (my choice), 530 it comes standard.

335 is better looking imo, 530 is a bit awkward, although it looks better with the sport pkg and big rims.

I believe BMW sells more CPO's than anyone else. The 6yr/100k warranty is a pretty good selling point. I would have no problem buying one if there was a car I wanted.

Last, I chose a E90 335i and I'm pretty smart.

Really outstanding car, very happy with my choice.

blueguydotcom · January 2007

Great article in autoweek about a year ago concerning why BMW keeps free maintenance and how that impacts their CPO program and sales for new car/used cars.

allargon · January 2007

I can't believe people actually think BMW has "free" maintenance. It's pre-paid maintenance (4 yrs/50k miles) with the cost of the car. If it were "free", it would be free for the life of the car. Okay, I'm off my soap box.

Does anyone have the 2006 sales figures for all the cars in the class broken down?

laurasdada · January 2007

There's an idea! FREE BMW 335i (fine print: Mandatory minimum $39,395.00 maintenance charge, possibly higher depending upon options chosen. Additonal maintenance charges will apply after 4 years/50,000 miles, whichever comes first. Plus tax, title, license, registration, undercoating, fabric protectant, paint sealant, fuzzy dice and power/heated ashtray charges).

Patent/Copywrite pending...

blueguydotcom · January 2007

We're all smart enough to understand we pay for the maintenance when we buy the car. It's an included cost of purchase. It's far easier to type "free maintenance" than "included maintenance."

I checked the maintenance costs on an IS350 at my local dealership and it came out to well over $2000 over 50k miles. The IS350 was significantly more expensive than my 330i before adding the cost of maintenance - that number pushed the IS to well over 41k.

blueguydotcom · January 2007

Extremely lazy. I don't get what the point is of people babbling "it's not free maintenance...you pay for it," Yes, we pay for it. Just like buy one get one free really isn't about getting anything for free at the supermarket. the point is, people don't have to pay any money post-purchase. buy the car and you don't fret about dropping another couple grand over the course of a lease: your costs = lease payment, insurance, tires and gas.

habitat1 · January 2007

"There must be some really lazy typists around."

Lazy? How many IS350 (or TL, or G35, or...) purchasers even bothered to do what blueguy did in getting an actual estimate of maintenance costs over 4 years and 50k miles before making a (supposedly) informed purchase decision. And how many have taken it the next step and estimated resale values over the time they expect to own the car?

Virtually everybody here in this forum that has claimed the IS, G, or TL are cheaper than the 335i by XX,XXX dollars based their figure on nothing but the up front purchase price. Talk about LAZY ... and imprudent. I am virtually certain for a 4 year ownership period, the 335i is less expensive than the G35, if you consider maintenance, gas and resale.

So if you don't like the idea of calling BMW's program "free" maintenance, perhaps yourcould provide us the complete list of maintenance costs for all of the other ELLPS models so we can compare apples to appples with maintenance included for all? That would be a lot more valuable to this forum than complaining about semantics.

ggesq · January 2007

According to my local Acura dealer's maintenance schedule and pricing:

At 5k,10k,20k,25k,35k,40k & 50k = $70.35 (x 7)= 492.45

At 15k= $109.56

At 30k= 160.60

At 45k= 226.77

Grand total for 4yr/50k for my TL at my local Acura dealer is - $989.38.

gooddeal2 · January 2007

"According to my local Acura dealer's maintenance schedule and pricing:

At 5k,10k,20k,25k,35k,40k & 50k = $70.35 (x 7)= 492.45

At 15k= $109.56

At 30k= 160.60

At 45k= 226.77

Grand total for 4yr/50k for my TL at my local Acura dealer is - $989.38."

I think that's just waste of $$ to spend on those silly maintenance. I bought at least 7 new cars during the past 8 years and all I spend on maintenance is "oil changed" ($25 for Nissan or Toyota and $40 for my G35 - 3 times/year)

I spend a lot of $$ on depreciation and Im not interest to hear those minor check this and that for an addition 200-300$. Ive never had any issues with warranty repairs. :shades:

ggesq · January 2007

gooddeal,

I agree with you (for the most part). However, I was merely trying to provide objective and standardized 4yr/50k maintenance costs for the TL since BMW provides it for free. Hopefully, others can chime in with the other ELLPS' so folks can have those figures when making their purchasing/lease decisions in this segment.

gooddeal2 · January 2007

ggesq,

I dont mean to go after you. I quote your post b/c it provides a good detail and is not a bad pricebut still I dont think people should spend 200-300$ just to have those people to check this and that for about 15 minutes or so.

kyfdx · January 2007

I'll throw my $0.02 in here..

Your Acura dealer may have the world's cheapest service prices.. The 30K service on our last Acura was around $400.00. The 30K service on my Honda CR-V was over $200.00. I commend your dealer.

My guess is the typical Acura (or Lexus, Infiniti, etc.) dealer will be 50%-100% higher than that, over 4 years..

However, you may end up spending 50% more on tires for the BMW over the same period.

regards,
kyfdx
not the host here

keitha3 · January 2007

I too question the reasoning behind taking the cars to the dealers for scheduled maintenance.

When I look at what they do for $300-400, it just doesn't add up. Local independent mechanics in my area laugh at the prices being charged. They usually do the same work for somewhere in the area of $100.

I'm lucky with my Accord and will continue to be lucky if I end up with an Acura. Two of the chief mechanics for our local Honda dealership left to open their own garage for reasons including what they considered overpricing by dealerships. They do better work and for a fraction of the cost, but only work on Acuras and Hondas. For years, though, we took all of our other vehicles to a local garage where they saved us literally thousands off of dealership prices.

m1miata · January 2007

What could they possibly due to your Acura at 30K miles that was worth $400? Cars pretty much tune by computer. You get an oil change, and check fluid levels, I would say. Sometimes I change the air filter at around 30K to 35K miles = a few bucks. I think people just love to spend money. As for tires, the Tire Rack or Costco have about the lowest prices these days, though I am sure there are many other discount places. With good tires from Kumho, great Yokohama tires, and many-many great choices at lower prices, I am thinking people hung up on the couple to three big name companies are paying more for less tire. This is not to say Michelins can not be bought with discounts from say Costco. For quite tires, my Dad's Toyo tires are amazingly quiet. And then they make the Ts-1 for handling. Moderate prices?
-Loren

habitat1 · January 2007

I think that's just waste of $$ to spend on those silly maintenance. I bought at least 7 new cars during the past 8 years and all I spend on maintenance is "oil changed" ($25 for Nissan or Toyota and $40 for my G35 - 3 times/year)

I spend a lot of $$ on depreciation and Im not interest to hear those minor check this and that for an addition 200-300$. Ive never had any issues with warranty repairs.

I guess silly is as silly does. So you think it's silly to do recommended dealer maintenance, but not to buy 7 (or more) new cars in 8 years and spend a lot on depreciation. I would probably take the other side of that coin.

I stretched to buy a new 1995 Nissan Maxima SE in September 1994. Fortunately, I bought form one of the few good, honest Nissan dealers in the DC area. I did do my own oil/filter changes every 4,000 miles, but I also did the 7,500 service intervals by the book, sometimes skipping to the 15k interval if I had been doing mostly highway driving. Having the tires rotated, brakes checked, fluids (transmission, brake etc) changed regularly at the dealership probably cost me a little more than Joe mechanci would have charged. But that car gave me 11 good years and 152k miles before it was retired to our second home. It still runs perfect and now has 156k miles. Original clutch, brake pads lasted 90k in front, 110k in rear, no rotor repairs or replacements ever, etc. The service manager took as much pride in servicing that car as I did in owning it.

I have no doubt that one can save a few maintenance bucks going with an independent mechanic or, in your case, simply buying new cars every year or so. But I decided in 1994 that I wanted the option of getting 150k miles out of my investment. And doing the preventive maintenance seemed to help me succeed.

P.S. And the "lots of $$" I saved on depreciation over those 11+ years by not buying a new car every spring allowed me the luxury of buying a new 911S Cab in 2005. To each their own as they say. :shades:

groovevicky · January 2007

Hello

I am new to this forum and just checking on the following...

I got a deal for $36,300 with all tax and tags in philadelphia, pa. is this a good price please help me with rates here...

also i am debating on wheather to buy Lexus ES 350 or Acura TL. Any views on that...lexus ES350 i am getting a quote of $41,000 all inclusive...

danilo · January 2007

The best advice to you is to drive them both. I mean really drive them like you would normally drive. See if you can take them home for a night or two and take them around town, drive them to the market, on the highway. Load the trunks, try to function while drinking a cup of java (if you do so normally). Put the price aside for the moment and see which one fits you personally. For me, the TL was a ok and the ES350 was ok as well. I ended up with a BMW. I know. It was the most expensive in the end (330Xi $42,000), but in the end I love my car and the way it feels. It fits ME well. So to that end but what "fits" you rather than the "price". PS: The BMW is way cool :shades:

Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

Comments

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles