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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    If you are in need of a FWD car, and the Lexus ES350 is looking good to you, why not try out a loaded Camry, and save the difference in price. Same car really. May want to consider the Cadillac CTS, which is $31K and has RWD. For $4K more you can get the 3.6 V6 if more power is required. Acura TL looks pretty nice. The classy Honda, again with FWD, if you live in snow country, or in some other way have that preference, it seems pretty good. And then there is Volvo and Audi FWD. My absolute last choice would be the Lexus ES 350 which is too close to being a Camry. Camry is fine and with a V6 starts at $24K. If bells and whistles, and leather seats and the like is important, I am thinking around $28K to $30k does it. Ah, but you could own a CTS.
    -Loren
  • nkeennkeen Member Posts: 313
    My folks bought one to replace a '66 (ouch) when I was a teenager. A V6 with aftermarket A/C and 8-track. The A/C used to spew condensation and then freeze up completely. My brother and I made short work of the C6 auto transmission.
  • crkline2crkline2 Member Posts: 20
    I am leaning towards buying the 2007 G35 Journey, but the 2008 Cadillac CTS, as shown at this year's Detroit Auto show, looks fantastic. So wait till mid-year and look at the next gen of the CTS or pull the trigger and buy the @007 G35?

    Thoughts?
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Loren,

    A ES 350 isn't a ELLPS car or is it now ? :confuse:

    Rocky
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    He's just helping out a new member.
  • bruceomegabruceomega Member Posts: 250
    tpjcourtney,

    When you say "The 335i will be much quicker ...", I assume that is because of the different engines. How do you think the 535i will compare to the 335i?

    Thanks
    Bruce
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    slower. While the 335i is a stuffed pig at 3600-3700 lbs, the 5 series is just a land yacht.
  • piasonpiason Member Posts: 55
    Has anyone found the crash results on the 2006/2007 IS250?
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Considering that the 2006 530i weighs only 55 pounds more than the 2006 330i in manual transmission trim (and only 44 pounds in automatic transmission trim), I don't expect the new 535i to be noticable heavier than the 335i. Yes, no?

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    55 lbs makes a big difference in roadfeel/handling, imho. I can feel far less than that in my car. A 10 lbs container of cat food is noticeable in my trunk. Yes, when I fill up with gas, the car feels different.
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Member Posts: 1,681
    I don't recall...but didn't the 335 gain a couple hundred pounds over the 330i? I thought it was the heavier block, and beefed up drive-train...

    I do miss the days of sub 3000 lbs vehicles.

    Not that it really matters, but when I compare the 335 to the competition its no heavier...they're all pretty portly...heck, even an 07 Rabbit 4 dr auto is just under 3000 lbs...and Rabbits are supposed to be paper weights.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    2006 530i weighs only 55 pounds more than the 2006 330i

    :surprise: :surprise: :surprise:

    How did the 3er got so heavy and why's the 5er so light?
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Remember to take the radio out too, before hitting the drag strip. ;)
    -Loren
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    One word: ALUMINUM ;-)

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Does the 5-series use all aluminum frame like the jags?
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    It's been a while since I read the specs on the E60, however, IIRC, all suspension and chassis/body components north of the firewall are made out of alumnium, as are many other body parts elsewhere on the vehicle. If someone has more definitive information, please feel free to correct me. ;-)

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • booyahcramerbooyahcramer Member Posts: 172
    My thoughts are that the G35 interior is cramped, so that rules it out all together for me. Tried to like it.

    My left knee hits the door handle. The cockpit seems narrow. I'd wait to see the Caddy and hope to be surprised by it.
  • perunestperunest Member Posts: 42
    Congraulation! You have the only Audi S4 in the world that's faster than a BMW M3. The Cabrio is even a little slower than the sedan. Every Magazine (R&T, C&D, Automobile) has faster 0 to 60 times for the BMW. You've even "easily blown by M3s". That would happen only if the M3 driver weren't trying. I have a 2006 BMW M Roadster (C&D 0-60 in 4.6 vs. 4.9 for the S4; R&T 0-60 in 4.7 vs. 5.3 for the S4) that would pull away from you at a stop light, unless the road was very wet and your four wheel drive got you better traction. I like Audis. The S4 is a nice car and Audi provides a beautiful space for the driver, but you need to get realistic about the acceleration.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    ""55 lbs makes a big difference in roadfeel/handling, imho. I can feel far less than that in my car. A 10 lbs container of cat food is noticeable in my trunk. Yes, when I fill up with gas, the car feels different".

    Bull. I am a strong promoter of lighter is better. I think a 3,300lb 350Z is indeed a "pig" compared to a 2,850 lb S2000. I think AWD at a 100-300+lb disadvantage is NOT a good tradeoff in a sports car or sports sedan.

    But your claim that 50 lbs makes a "big difference" in the handling and road feel of a 3,500+ lb sport sedan is taking the point to the extreme. Not on any public roads, and probably not on a track. If it did, the car couldn't even make it around a corner loaded with 4 passengers.

    As far as noticing 10 lbs in the trunk, double bull. Unless you have that bag bouncing around in .8g slalom turns, and hear it, there isn't a human being on earth that could tell it's there. The fuel tank in my 911 holds 16.8 gallons = 135 +/- lbs. I can tell the difference between full and empty, but not between 9/16 and 5/8. Crap, I've lost 8 pounds since the holidays and looking to drop another 20. I hope to feel a lot better driving my 911 if I get get my 6-pack back by spring, but the car won't perform any differently. How much does Schumacher weigh, anyways?

    Congratulations on your recent engagement. Perhaps your post is attempted justification for you and your fiance to drive around naked, but I don't really think you have science or engineering on your side. ;)

    P.S. The lighter is better principle is one I fully agree with. The issue, IMHO, however, isn't that a 530i weighs 44 lbs more than a 330i, it's that a diminimus sized IS350 sedan weighs over a quarter ton more than my 5 passenger 1995 Nissan Maxima. 3,500 lbs seems to be the new standard, compared to 3,000 not that long ago.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    I've always looked at the 545/550 weight, not the 530i.

    So I checked:

    http://www.bmwusa.com/vehicles/5/530iSedan/techdata.htm
    3472 for a 530i manual.

    http://www.bmwusa.com/vehicles/5/530iSedan/techdata.htm

    3593 for the 335i sedan manual.

    Oh my god! That's sick. There's something so wrong with what BMW has done to the 3 series. And for 2008 the 5 series will supposedly get the 3.0TT.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Habitat, my 330i feels totally the different the moment anything goes in it - especially the trunk. Humans in the car - well it just becomes outrageous how bad the car feels. One 110 lbs passenger - my fiancee - and the the car's balance is totally different.

    And yes the weight in the trunk is moving around - slamming from side to side which will naturally exacerbate the problem. A 20 lb bag of feline pine sliding back and forth on every corner...ugh.

    The spongy suspension, the silent interior, the massive size, the clunking HVAC, the grinding brakes, the spotty comfort access...Feb of 2008 can't come soon enough for me.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    Still funny - you at 145, your fiance at 110, and your 330i becomes "outrageously bad". :D

    Back when I had my S2000, I had it in for service and as it was being brought up to me, a guy comes over and asks, "hows the suspension on yours?" Fine I said and then he explained that his seemed to ride too low and would bottom out on his driveway. I sized him up to be about 6'2" and 230. I commented that he shouldn't have any trouble sinse the passneger capacity of the car was 400 lbs. Then his wife comes around the corner and must have been 5'10" and about 250. :cry: I wanted to stick around to see how they both fit in the car - but decided against watching that train wreck.

    So I guess the only thing I could recommend for you two is to indeed drive naked. Even my gym clothes, running shoes and i-Pod add 3+ lbs to my weight. You may not feel the difference in the 330i, but it will make for more fun leisurely drives.
  • nkeennkeen Member Posts: 313
    These cars are getting way too heavy, no doubt. The Corvette (base = 3179), for one, seems to have things under better control. How about an Exige?
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Studio on wheels
    Navigation system
    14 speakers + a truck load of subwoofers
    A/C seats
    The list goes on...

    How can these cars not getting heavier and heavier. The new CTS is over 3,800 lbs. :surprise:
  • nkeennkeen Member Posts: 313
    3340 for the base 328i sedan + 66lbs for ZSP. I wonder how much electric seats and the active headlight mechanism adds.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,295
    neeners. these cars have lots of power, big tires, big brakes, and an electronic nanny to lend a hand if your knees start to get weak. i don't see any posts about gas mileage. so why worry about weight? ;)
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Member Posts: 1,681
    handling...

    Continental GT also has “big everything”…but I wouldn’t want to take one around a slalom (ok I would ;) )
  • nkeennkeen Member Posts: 313
    Right. If Chevy can do it with a big fat V8 up front and steamroller runflats, BMW should be able to manage better too. Get rid of some of that sound deadening -- I'd like to hear more road noise and some of that engine hum and transmission whine that the older cars had. At the same time get rid of some of that high end exhaust raspiness that compromises the turbine like quality of the engine and seems to have been added just for effect. Ditch the non-performance related electronic junk, or at least make it all optional (e.g., dual zone auto a/c). The E90 should be in the 3,000 to 3,200 lb range, depending on config.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,295
    funny, you and ivan signed up the same day, what a co-inkydink!
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Who cares what the weight is....I'd rather have a solid feeling car than some flimsy "tinament". You know how you counter balance weight ????? You just add more muscle ;)

    Rocky
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Anyone who was a member before we switched to this Web Crossing platform has the same "member since" date. It means we've been around longer than the Forums have been on WebX.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    http://www.lancerproject.com/

    The EVO Prototype-X :shades:

    Guys this is IMHO the greatest foreign car ever made !!!!

    I've swallowed the EVO-X hook...... :blush:

    Rocky
  • ggesqggesq Member Posts: 701
    When did Mitsubishi become a luxury automaker?
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Why is BMW, a recognized luxury car when they still offer standard Vinyl Seats ? :P

    Geeez......I was just sharing some info on a new product and yes the "X" doesn't have standard Vinyl seats like some other cars we know of that are considered quote: "a luxury brand" ;)

    Rocky
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    That's why there are other boards on this forum to share this information. Noteably:

    Mistubishi Lancer EvoX
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Here's an example of a more weight being balanced by extra HP.

    http://www.metacafe.com/watch/122116/2007_audi_rs4/

    Over 500 lbs. difference only 80 more HP. It's a start.

    Regards,
    OW
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Damn dude the car is every bit as luxurious as many that are mentioned on this forum. I wanted to show the ELLPS crowd the "X". You always have the option to skip over my post. ;) I didn't know you were elected as the judge of this forum ???? I get frequent posts by some of the guests in this forum in domestic car forums I frequent and if they post something of good knowledge I don't get my panty's in a twist. Some of you guys get caught up in brand names instead of looking at the product. I guess you are one of "those people" :confuse:

    Rocky
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Rocky, there are manufacturers who produce "luxury" vehicles and manufacturers who don't. A criterion for this forum is that the vehicle is manufactured by a brand recognized as a luxury manufacturer. Mitsubishi is not one of them.

    It's certainly okay for you to make a passing observation about an off-topic vehicle, but please don't insist that the vehicle then be included as a subject.

    Let's invite everyone to join you here to discuss the Evo X Prototype: rcpax, "Mitsubishi Evo X Prototype" #1, 18 Dec 2006 8:05 pm.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Okay.....fair enough even though I disagree with the brand criteria y'all have set in place. ;)

    Rocky
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Well, it is the founding premise of this discussion so it isn't something that just gets changed on the fly by anyone who wants to change it for whatever reason. You know that you can create ... or continue in ... your own. ;)
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    "Why is BMW, a recognized luxury car when they still offer standard Vinyl Seats ?"

    Perhaps because BMW's leatherette is of better quality than the Big Three's "fine Corinthian leather". Or because BMW puts their leatherette over seats that are attached to a chassis that has more engineering quality than anything ever produced by the Big Three.

    You and I have sparred before on this. Could we agree that (1) You'll begrudgingly accept that "leather" isn't the holy grail of "luxury" and (2) I'll begrudgingly accept that Cadillac and Lincoln are accepted here as luxury brands even though their very best offerings are two rungs down from anything I'd ever be seen dead in. Or alive in.

    If you think leather makes up for inferior build quality, exterior and interior designs that make most ELLPS buyers cringe, fit and finish that's marginal at best, and resale values that look like falling meteors...well that's your perogative. But I'd take a leatherette BMW (or 911, for that matter) over all of the dead cows in the world stuffed into a GM or Ford.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Why is BMW, a recognized luxury car when they still offer standard Vinyl Seats ?

    I think it's just a matter of keeping MSRP as low as possible, then zapping you with the options. When people hear leatherette, the knee jerk response is e-e-w-w-w-w. And if you mention leatherette to the sales people, they intimidate you with resale etc. Buyers will spend years trying to figure out how save money when getting a new car, but mention the L word and you get a catatonic stare. The thinking is that leatherette is tantamount to being castrated. You have to admit, the tactic works.

    "Show me the MONEY!"

    ;-)
  • robbiegrobbieg Member Posts: 346
    I have a friend who has a 2001 325i with black leatherette and it looks like leather.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,929
    i feel the same way. Its really tough to tell these days unless they are side by side, IMHO. 99% of observers who were shown a leatherette bmw first would not know its not real leather.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    Most of the cars in this segment are "leather trimmed" anyways, meaning only the part of the seat that touches your backside is actual leather. 80% of the interior is leatherette.

    Personally, I can't tell the difference and I've heard BMW pleather is more durable and easier to care for than the real stuff.

    If and when I ever buy a new BMW, it will have pleather.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    Porsche puts leather on the sides (bolsters), leatherette in the center sections of their seats as their standard seats. My 911 came with the $1,500 "full leather seating surfaces" option, but I never would have ordered it. My butt would be just as happy either way.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    I meant Nissan(Infinity) instead of Mitsubishi.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    I thought the primary advantage of leather over leatherette is "permeability." Leather "breathes" whereas pleather does not. Therefore a sweaty butt is best at telling the difference :-) To be honest, with the leather industry so nortorious for "bonded leather," which is minced up leather pulp with polymer added (as bonding agent, i.e. glue), a product analogous to fiber board in the building industry, it's hard to tell what can be called "real leather." When I look at most car interiors, how flawless the large swaths of the interior "leather" look, it's hard to imagine where they found so many cows handled with kid gloves all their lives. Real cow hides have scars and blemishes. Cattles are pretty dumb animals that injure themselves quite often, not to mention the skin folds and strech marks from larding up on good days. None of it is visible in "leather interior" . . . makes one wonder :-)
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Member Posts: 1,681
    Leather does have a nice aroma; though I do believe they can remove that “smell” for markets that find it objectionable.
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    some leather in cars, maybe most of it is actually painted with plastic paint. Any breathing quality of the leather in that case is compromised or lost.
    Sitting on plastic seat material or on plastic coated leather? What's the big difference?
    It is like the fake wood on the dash compared to real wood on the dash which has had layers of plastic varnish sprayed on it and polished to a plastic like surface. Wood made to imitate plastic. Haha.
    I suppose leather has more of a heat insulation factor which might make it comfortable sooner after entering a car than vinyl seats, that is, when your butt is at a temperature much different from the seat cushions
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