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Comments
I do appreciate how leather smells, but I'm guessing (as was pointed out, with respect to "wood") that, at this price point, real leather & real wood are well out of reach -- what we get is a pale imitation. Surprisingly (or not), that's adequate, most of the time, to keep the cars selling.
When Infiniti presented a real (non-shiny) wood finish in their M series, many didn't like it. It appears that plastic has carried the day.
You get what you pay for (plus that negotiation bit).
The other just is the pressedboard crud - Ford is famous fo this as witnessed by the 4-5 year lifespan of their "Leather" interiors.(when you see it coming apart and you see white backing, that's the stuff that's put together like particle-board. Real leather is solid and if you get a rip in it, it's all the way through the same, like say, ripping a cotton T-shirt.
But the real stuff costs about 800-1200 per car in actual labor and materials - before profit and such is factored in. MOst people don't want to spend $2000-$3000 for real leather these days(though Cadillacs should at least offer the option to those who want it)
In the UK, E90s appear to be sold with cloth, cloth/leather combinations and leather, but no leatherette.
Rocky
I want to rephrase myself. I understand what you are saying but their is more to a ELLPS than just driving dynamics. IMHO that's all that BMW knows how to do very well and they sell many for that reason along with people seeking to buy for the badge. I however think theirs much more to car than strictly handling performance. Honestly how many people are going to take their BMW's to the track and use all that handling performance ???? Are you going to race louiswei, around a track in his IS350 ????? I personaly would rather enjoy the creature comforts of a IS350 that has 90-95% of the 335i's performance every day than have a car that is a great performance machine but does nothing else better than the competition let alone better than the gadget filled IS 350.
If you want a performance machine their are better alternatives on the market which are cheaper to own and operate. A couple off the top of my head is the STI and EVO if you wanted to stick with a sedan. The next EVO, like I said is IMHO a ELLPS even though this board and host doesn't recognize it as such because it's not a luxury brand and that's okay.
Rocky
:P
Do you derive any pleasure from driving? I do. I look forward to driving. It's not a chore. It's not a have-to. It's a desire, a longing, almost an addiction. Coupled with that need is a strange desire to always draw the perfect line on a corner. It could be a simple 90 degree turn or a banked 270 degree corner that I take daily. The line, carrying speed through it, transitioning the weight just right, nose pointing in the perfect place for exit. I get ultimate glee from the "perfect corner" or taking a series of Esses just right.
Unfortunately, lifestyle demands a 4 door with room at least a little room. I demand xenon headlights, leather and some sense that the car i'm in wasn't built for someone working at target (Subaru, Mitsubishi) That's why I drive a BMW. The only other guys who come close are Mazda - not the Mazdaspeed6. VW is a distant third.
Everyday, I drive my car. how it handles is of the utmost importance. You seem to prefer passively piloting. to each his own. Most people drive like they're dead; if I drove like them I might as well have a banal auto-equipped 03 Camry 4 cylinder then.
Great explanation of enthusiasm in daily driving. No need to push the absolute limits of the car but enjoying the experience and the skill to do it well (a little like golf; you're really competing with yourself).
I enjoyed the 2 BMW coupes I've had but practicality dictates a 4 door (2007 Acura TL-S) and FWD for Northeast winters (though this year has been an exception).
Using enjoyment and enthusiastic (but not dangerous) driving as an evaluation mechanism allows for a lot of individual choice in ELLPS (among the agreed brands). Many of the cars would be good choices but personal preferences, price, etc., make the equation different for everyone.
Enjoy your daily drives; I certainly do.
Jack
M
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=119252
The article says the car is a little higher and shorter than the one it replaces. Darn! My main beef with the C class (besides the perceived lack of reliability, uncompetitive powertrain and high price) is the lack of cabin space for even the DRIVER.
-Loren
Quality driving dynamics and precision engineering are infinitely more important to me than the difference between BMW leatherette and Cadillac leather. As for "that's all BMW knows how to do"? What planet are you living on Rocky? BMW's can be equiped with virtually all of the luxury amenities a normal person could ever want. And style is highly subjective.
As for those seeking to buy the "badge", let's cut to the chase on that one. GM lovers should be envious of the BMW badge. Better yet, they should learn from it. It represents more than a half century of dedicated commitment to producing some of the finest engineered cars in the world. As, by the way, does the Porsche badge. BMW earned the right to "badge" loyalty. GM, on the other hand, did everything possible to piss that kind of quality engineering heritage and customer loyalty in the gutter. You yourself can't proudly live in the present. You are always promoting that the next thing to come out of Cadillac will be "the best". Wishful thinking - but one thing is for certain, brand loyalty doesn't work that way. If you've screwed up for a couple of decades straight, you either need to fold your tent or be prepared to do it right for a consistent decade or two before arrogantly thinking that you deserve any brand loyalty. That's how long it took Audi to overcome their debacles in the 1980's.
Lastly, please don't speak for me, Louiswei, blueguydotcom or anyone else in this forum when you attempt to proclaim the "top three" ELLPS's. That's your opinion, which you are entitled to have, (despite, IMO, your warped metrics of "gadgets" being king). I think most of us here are mature and intelligent enough to come to our own opinions and conclusions without the benefit of your "obvious" proclamation that the next Cadillac will, finally, be "the best".
I agree with habitat regarding the "toilet" treatment and arrogance regarding any need to change to market dynamics or to recognize the reaction from customers as their products suffered from real and perceived quality/value degradation. That was/is the mentality of some of the large car manufacturers today as well (Merc, Watch Out!...don't get Chrysler fungus). Bleeding quality and loyalty led to the current state of affairs for the US contingent. Yes, they can and will turn around because they can no longer exist by the "driving by looking in the rearview mirror" mentality. The past is gone. The competition is better. Time to get real.
Heck, if my GM car performed close to this BMW I own, you think I would not line up again and again? When you expect a certain level of return in any investment and there is never a smile on your face anymore, loyalty evaporates. As to the gadgets, give me a break! The parts bin at BMW is a couple of steps up from the best US has to offer, hands down.
Regards,
OW
But they aren't the only competition in town anymore.
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
2007 Cadillac CTS
Sport 4dr Sedan (3.6L 6cyl 6M)
MSRP Invoice National Base Price
$36,285 $33,926 $34,562
Regional Adjustment
for Zip Code Change - - $83 Optional Equipment $4,950 $4,109 $4,365 Y41 3.6L V6 Luxury Package (w/o wheels) $1,550 $1,287 $1,367 MX0 5-Speed Automatic Transmission w/Driver Shift Control $1,200 $996 $1,058 CF5 Power Glass Sunroof w/Express Open $1,200 $996 $1,058 U2S AM/FM Radio w/6-Disc In-Dash CD Changer $1,000 $830 $882 Color Adjustment - - $105 Blue Chip Destination Charge $745 $745 $745 Total with Options $41,980 $38,780 $39,860
OK, a quick stupid question: Do you prefer the look of the Azera to the Sonata? Is it me, or does the Azera look older. I am NOT saying it looks bad, but rather the dating of the look a bit say early 90's. Anyway, is it better looking or just larger? Any vote for it being included with entry luxury? Is it there yet?
-Loren
The radio - aftermarket. Always been true for any GM product.
Don't forget the end of year incentives and 0% financing - that's a huge plus as well.
I like Bangle-Butt though.
Personally, I find the new CTS to be in a different league (better- interior and exterior) looks wise to the previous model. That said, the headlamps on the new CTS are an example of what you speak of.
RE: Azera and Sonata- Any vote for it being included with entry luxury? Is it there yet?
-nope
-Loren
Live longer and stronger is my motto. And they switched to automatics in the fastest cars on earth a long time ago. :P
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDDh0MhVb68&eurl=
I know someone's going reply simply: It is you...
Why can't those manufactures just stick with the simple touch-screen. Acura used to have a very good touch screen nav system but I think they have started to use those joystick/knob type of control as well.
Perhaps it's the lack of wood.
Could the Ultimate ELLPS be a used car? Not just any used car, but a '97-'98 BMW E36 M3 4 door. I saw 2 great examples listed for sale in ROUNDEL (BMWCCA's monthly magazine).
1998 M3 Sedan: Black/Grey, 83K miles, 5-speed $15,000
Then another one posted by some nut-job: 1998 M3 Sedan: White/Black 13K miles $30,000
Personally I'd take the car with 83K miles on it!
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
Looks so WRONG compared to the current model.
Long ago grilles used to define a car.
Now everybody calls them "SUV" grilles (whatever that means).
A grille is a grille.
What else is there to put in front there?
I hope we can return to the days of truly daring design and leave behind the Consumer Reports-inspired resale-value madness that has sent all of us into a beige and silver hell. :shades:
P.S. Is this a rendering of the first reported incident of road rage?
Blame the new "pedestrian-friendly" crash standards for the grille and hood. I like it, though...
Interesting how these cars not only retained their value but have increased exponentially according to the condition. I knew I should have put some of these classics on moth balls in the 70's! Just like all of those Mickey Mantle, etc. cards my Mom threw away!
But it's not to late for those E36's! Now's the time to invest.
Regards,
OW
Stop fantasizing and pull out your financial calculator.
I was an original owner of one of the roughly 460 BMW M1's produced in the late 1970's. Paid the godly sum of $65,000+/- in 1979. Decided to sell in 1982. My brother said I was nuts, that I should keep the car and it would go up in value. Indeed it did, and if I had taken the time to properly store it in a climate and humidity controlled environment, I could probably get $125,000 for it today, maybe even $200,000 from a crazy collector with more money than brains.
The $55,000 I sold it for in 1982 went into a conservative investment fund. My wife and I were just getting married and we agreed that, assuming we didn't need to use the money for a house, kids, etc., I could "splurge" some day on another sports car. Fortunately, we've done pretty well and I've been able to have my cake and eat it too. But we kept that money sequestered from our other funds and the conservative investment has returned an average of 14.5% annually. Not exactly hedge fund type returns, but enough to grow that $55,000 into $1,432,000+/- (pre-tax) as of December 31.
I cringe when I hear of people speaking of cars as investments. Yes, there are some collectables in which you could do pretty well if you were at the right place, at the right time, and knew exactly what was a good deal or not. My brother did make a very nice return on a Ferrari Dino. The guy that bought it from him in the late 1980's did not.
An E36 as an investment? You have got to be out of your mind.
No what I meant is that obsession with resale value has pushed everyone toward the lowest common styling denominator.
Nobody wants to take risks, because they want to appeal to the widest cross section of people as possible.
So, they will refuse to buy a car with a red interior--or the lovely browns that BMW has--simply because it may not sell as well as one with beige.
But, overall.. I like it. C-Class sedans haven't exactly been great looking cars, in general. I think this one is better.
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"Ummm, I sure as hell do."
"No you don't, it will destroy the resale value of your car."
"So? I have to drive the car for three or four years first, and I damn sure want to enjoy it to its fullest in the meantime.
Best Regards,
Shipo
And there is poetic justice on the manual transmission example. I was never actually discouraged from buying a 2004 Acura TL 6-speed, even though 80%+ of TL's were automatics. But now that for the 2007's you have to jump to the TL-S to get a 6-speed, my dealer called me with an offer to buy my car for cash (i.e. not a trade in) at 100% full KBB trade in value. They would not make that same offer for an automatic, since they are in ample supply.
Thanks for waking me up!
Regards,
OW
-Loren
I agree 100%, I think Mercedes makes very pretty cars, but I wouldn't buy due to reliability problmes.
Very well put.
The least common denominator is alive and well.
I in a quandary! I'll soon be purchasing either a 06/07 MB C280 or 06/07 Volvo S60. My research here on Edmunds and other places tell me that neither is the perfect car. Reliability is pretty important to me, as is decent gas mileage, but I also want a car I LIKE. Is that too much to ask?? (I already know the answer to that - "yes.") So, both cars are around the same sales $$, same depreciation, etc. The MB I'll feel a little pretentious in (I can get over it.) But, will the S60 turbo cause me suffering in the long run (maintenance)? :sick: I keep my cars ~8-10 yrs.
Wathca think?
-Loren