Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!

Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

1155156158160161435

Comments

  • souji3souji3 Member Posts: 9
    The Lexus IS with Mark Levinson sound system and LCD plays DVDs while the car is parked.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Those are aftermarket system which will play DVDs on cars. Maybe now they've got ones that play when a car is in park (are you sure it's not a mod as people are always asking for that mod on Bimmer forums). Why people need something like this is totally beyond me. All the time I see idiots driving around alone with movies playing on LCDS facing the backseats. This serves no purpose other than to draw attention.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    You can watch DVDs on a parked IS with the mark levinson system.

    And naturally people are modding it to play DVDs while the car is in motion. Because ya just need to watch Sense and Sensibility while doing 65 in the number 3 lane. :confuse:
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    Hahaha. Like spinner wheels?
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    maybe they are listening to the movie?
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Paying for a navi system from the factory is throwing money to the wind. Get a Garmin for $350 and your done. It's portable to use in any car you drive in.

    Regards,
    OW
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Got my mom a Garmin Nuvi 360 for xmas and that thing is sweet. It's small, sharp, gives great directions and she can use it on her next trip to Europe. We're programmed all her favorites local spots, so when she visits she can get around easily. The built-in bluetooth is perfect for her too.

    Personally, I use Tomtom with a PDA for work and it gets the job done for my travels around the country and outside it.

    That said I'll probably pay for my fiancee's next car to have built-in navi. Why? She's scary bad with directions. I'll say to go north and she'll get confused. It's pretty easy to figure out as we live in city on the pacific ocean! Having something that's always on and pointing her in the right direction = peace of mind for me.

    In some instances in-car navi can be useful. For the most part I think it's an exceedinly overpriced toy with limited functionality:$300 in software and parts that the manufacturers mark up to 2k. And it can only be used in the car; as we travel out of town mostly by plane, I fail to see the day-to-day value.

    When navi in cars is standard - like AC, power windows - or down around $400, I'll consider it. Until then, portables for me too.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    "Paying for a navi system from the factory is throwing money to the wind. Get a Garmin for $350 and your done. It's portable to use in any car you drive in."

    But if I try to mount one in our 911, TL or MDX it tends to interfere with the dash mounted bobble head dolls, hanging fuzzy dice and wintergreen air freshener. Not to mention my suction cup pen and pad holder and non-Bluetooth hands free phone adaptor. :surprise:
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    But if I try to mount one in our 911, TL or MDX it tends to interfere with the dash mounted bobble head dolls, hanging fuzzy dice and wintergreen air freshener. Not to mention my suction cup pen and pad holder and non-Bluetooth hands free phone adaptor.

    You must be a cop! ;)

    Regards,
    OW
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    "That said I'll probably pay for my fiancee's next car to have built-in navi. Why? She's scary bad with directions. I'll say to go north and she'll get confused. It's pretty easy to figure out as we live in city on the pacific ocean!"

    Combine that with her previous faux pas of having bought a Volvo and I can only conclude that she must be really, really cute. Congratulations. ;)
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    You see, if you get the portable, you can wear it on your belt when you go for a run and it will tell you how to get back!

    Seriously, I believe there are new detachable navi systems which will allow the interchage between cars. This way, you can still keep all the do-dads attached to the windshield and still find your way! :blush:

    Regards,
    OW
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    But my running shorts don't have a belt, as it would clash with my black socks. :blush:

    Besides, if the Garman was small enough to wear on my belt and not slow down this sorry butt, it probably isn't big enough for my tastes in a car. The TL screen is 9", the MDX is 8". Even the grossly overpriced, hard to use 911 screen is 6", with very good resolution. The portable units I've seen have 3-4-5" screens that are pretty poor by comparison. I'm sure they've improved, but I still confess an economically irrational preference for an aesthetically attractive functionally integrated factory system.

    For what it's worth, I have plopped my laptop in the passenger seat of my 1995 Maxima with a $100 DeLorme GPS unit plugged into a USB port. The super high resolution 14" screen works great, so long as you aren't trying to draft a semi while looking down at the passenger seat.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    H1, I used to wear black socks with my shorts too! HaHaHa! In your case you can suction cup it to your foforehead:)

    I just think for all of your cars with a factory navi it's pretty dear to find your way. My point is, let's get a standard format so we can interchange between vehicles or take it with us wherever we go. Why keep ticking the $2K navi box?

    Regards,
    OW
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    One thing I will grant you is that at least if a Garman malfunctions or dies after a couple of years, you can either get it replaced or toss it and get the latest and greatest.

    Our MDX was in service for a total of 3 days dues to a haywire nav system. Showed us paddling in the Atlantic on the way back from Boston to DC. It took a couple of attempts to fix it, finally achieved by replacing the entire disk unit under the seat. Under warranty and my wife got a new 2007 MDX as a loaner, but still a pain in the butt. And what happens if the screen goes dead in year 5 or 6 of of our planned 7-8 year "buy and hold" strategy? I'm a little surprised there is no difference in the cost of an extended warranty for the various MDX (or TL) models even though ours has both the Navi and rear DVD/Entertainment systems and both are covered. While my 1995 Maxima runs like a top mechanically after 12 years and 155k miles, I think I've been through at least 5 desktop/laptop computers during that time.

    In the case of the 911, there was no box to tick. I took an in-stock car for $10k+ off MSRP when local dealers were barely discounting an ordered car. So even if it goes dead, I'm well ahead dollar wise.
  • rvator4rvator4 Member Posts: 84
    I have to agree with you. I have a TL with nav and I would never purchase one again in the car. We have used it soooooo few times. I will buy a portable one and take it from car to car from now on.
    Like someone else said, when it becomes std equipment for 400 extra, I might consider it.
    The portable one in my airplane sure gets used a lot though. Never leave home without it. Stay out of those controlled airspace areas.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    You never leave Class G?!?!
  • allargonallargon Member Posts: 75
    EVERY ELLPS has navigation available.

    Mobile Link? Do you mean Bluetooth? The only one that lacks it is the Cadillac CTS--sigh.

    DVD in the center stack? The Lexus IS is the only ELLPS that has it. If you are willing to go pre-owned, you can look at the Cadillac STS and the Infiniti M. Both of those allow playing of DVD movies through their center screens.

    MP3s? MP3s on CD or an AUX jack. All of the ELLPS play MP3 CD's. Current CTS's don't do this without aftermarket. This will be resolved for the 2008 model year.

    Premium sound? That's highly subjective. Toyota has a premium sound 9-speaker JBL option on the Prius. It doesn't even include a subwoofer.

    Dallas? You can get great deals up there. If they won't play in Dallas, check with the dealers in Houston or San Antonio. (I doubt the Austin dealers other than Acura will be cheaper than Dallas since there's so little competition here.)

    Good luck.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    08' CTS will have bluetooth, 40 GIG hard drive w/ Bose 5.1, Swivel bi-xenon headlamps, double sunroof, special noice cancelation hood made of aluminum, ventilated seats, heated F/R seats, SAT/NAV that telescopes up out of stack and when not in use it displays non-nav info, direct-injection, vertical LED "light pipes", Perforated noice cancelation material in tailpipes, these are to name a few. ;)

    Rocky
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    And what would want to entice me to buy this car? No doubt the CTS will appeal to diehard CTS fans, but I think Cadillac will go under when BMW releases it's tri-turbo 345i model slated as a 2010 model. Sporting 1000hp/1000 torque, it signals a new era for the 3 series and for BMW. It will run a combination of gas/diesel and or hydrogen.

    That car is rumored to have 1 terabyte of solid-state memory with a PCI-Express uplink bus as the nerve-fiber that connects all components. It's brain is rumored to be quad-core Intel chips run Linux-mobile. It will have 35 speakers on the Logic-10 system will support 10.2 surround sound. It will also support HD-DVD and Blu-ray audio discs.

    More details to follow...
  • pv2pv2 Member Posts: 37
    Suggest that posts to this board stick with currently available cars IMHO. Too often features that are projected to appear on future cars don't arrive or have different characteristics. Next maybe we'll be projecting performance figures like one car magazine has already done. Let's have a dose of reality; this board is valuable for perspectives of those who actually own or have driven some of the curren ELLPS, not the hyperbole of marketers.
    PV2
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    I agree with pv2 and will also add based on BMW's track record I doubt half of that technology you listed really works and BMW's reliability track record suggests that kind of car will spend most of it's time in the shop while I'm out cruising in my poor CTS. BTW cost of that car won't put it in the ELLPS segment as it would cost six-seven figures but perhaps in 3 years we will allow cars in that price segment to to be considered as a ELLPS ???? :P

    Rocky
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Electric and Hybrid technology will obviate the engine as we know it. This will happen in all segments. Projecting no changes except more power current performance numbers and styling cues gets quite boring. Just like the US auto industry. I love seeing all of those 12 MPG SUV's just sitting there on GM's and F.O.R.D.' s dealer lots. I do not see that at BMW, Lexus and Infinity. This tells me the bleeding continues which will force major changes that just are inevitable.

    Let's project the future in what we really want to see happen in the ELLPS of the future as well as what is happening now.

    Just my opinion.

    Regards,
    OW
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    This tells me the bleeding continues which will force major changes that just are inevitable.

    I'm not sure where you live OW, but I don't see that problem in my neck of the woods.

    I think in the near future you will witness a policy change that will reverse the fortunes. (That is a topic for another discussion) ;)

    GM, is doing very well here in the Texas Panhandle and many friends are excited about the 08' CTS

    Rocky
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    I guess you and rocky were a little too slow to see that kdshapiro was exercising a little satiric humor with his post about the 1,000 hp 345i? :confuse:

    It's not kd or me or others here, but rather Rocky that seems to be the one constantly living in the future, hoping against history that somehow GM and Ford's next generation of vehicles won't be as pitifully uncompetitive as the current batch or previous 2-3+ decades worth.

    Rocky, if GM is "doing just fine" on the Texas panhandle, that's great. But I have at least two former business school classmates that have higher net worths than the market capitalization of Ford and GM. They are not doing well on any level of business metric. In my opinion, the future (if there is one) of American car manufacturers no longer rests with Ford or GM as we know them. It's time for a new compnay to be created by business and engineering professionals backed by private equity to develop and produce cars truly competitive with BMW, Honda and Porsche. The GM and Ford images have gotten to be far too heavy baggage, not to mention their legacy labor and management problems.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    habitat,

    you ran that story of how rich your buddy's by me a few months ago. I know you rub elbows with the Trumps, Hiltons, Gates. *cough* BS

    Well I'm not sure what this all has to do with ELLPS's but when I was referring to the 08' CTS it was a realistic car and sited sources to back me including edmunds. I know kdshapiro, was enjoying the oppertunity to lob a "cheap shot" my way as I don't post much in the ELLPS forum.

    Well I'm sure you enjoyed it and maybe your uncle who you will claim is the "Sultan of Dubai" will buy you one of those BMW 345i's before they come out via hitting speed dial to Stuggart ;)

    Rocky
  • allargonallargon Member Posts: 75
    Rocky, I'm hoping GM (and even Ford) succeeds as much as you do. However, you post in the ELLPS forum quite a lot. I have to call you on that one.

    I do need to make a correction. The current Cadillac CTS does play MP3 CD's. It just doesn't have an AUX jack for MP3/Minidisc/Handheld music players like pretty much every mass market car that's not a Porsche does. (Yes, it will be resolved w/ the 2008 CTS that won't be out until Aug/Sept. So, it's not available now. Therefore, it doesn't have it.)
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    I do not see a US stamp on any future next gen technology (except the privete firms that Habitat1 relates). Here is an example that will no doubt come to a 3'er real soon.

    BMW has announced the introduction of the new BMW Hydrogen 7, the world's first hydrogen-drive luxury performance automobile. The car - a vehicle that has undergone the regular Product Development Process - will be built in a limited series in Europe and driven in the US and other countries by selected users in 2007.

    That is why GM and Ford will morph into an international real soon. My guess is 2010.

    Regards,
    OW
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    What I find interesting is that so many peolpe are deriding Cadillac for things like nav and bluetooth and AWD and...

    What part of "entry-level" isn't sinking in?

    Entry-level at $30K certainly can suffer from a few less frills, IMO.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Here is an example that will no doubt come to a 3'er real soon.

    BMW has announced the introduction of the new BMW Hydrogen 7, the world's first hydrogen-drive luxury performance automobile. The car - a vehicle that has undergone the regular Product Development Process - will be built in a limited series in Europe and driven in the US and other countries by selected users in 2007.


    Don't hold your breath. Hydrogen internal combustion engines are going nowhere in the near future. There's hardly any hydrogen to put in them and creating an infrastructure is expensive and problematic.
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    How about including a device near the motor which would cheaply and efficiently remove hydrogen from the water in the water (fuel) tank? That hydrogen could be used to explode in the motor. Exhaust gas...oxygen and water vapor.
    Its been done before. But it got its inventor, Mr. Meyer, murdered.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Don't hold your breath.

    Pretty soon, without a change from the petroleum dependance and air pollution, we will not be able to take one, let alone hold one.

    I agree the infrastructure isn't there and would take time to build but if you add this tech to the hybrid and later pure electric propulsion, we can and will make "clean transportation" reality. How many 3 series would be sold if one could plug them in overnight. Better yet, as energy cell tech is perfected, we could plug our houses into the car after a long days drive!

    It reminds me of the insurance commercial with the cave men...It's so easy, (read:inevitable) a cave man could make it happen! After all, they did invent the wheel, whose earliest version was the first run-flat ever used! WILMA! :)

    Regards,
    OW
  • pmaenterpmaenter Member Posts: 6
    I'm in the market for a slightly used 06 or 05 G sedan but notice that prices range considerably not necessarily linked to mileage. Are there different (and 'preferred') pkgs that I should be looking for? Thanks!
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    How about including a device near the motor which would cheaply and efficiently remove hydrogen from the water in the water (fuel) tank? That hydrogen could be used to explode in the motor. Exhaust gas...oxygen and water vapor.

    Excuse me while I (hahahahah!!!!!). Uh, it takes the same amount of energy to separate the water into hydrogen and oxygen as you get back when you burnt the hydrogen to produce the same water again. Ain't going to happen unless you want to power that with gas or something silly like that.
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    Your statement, "...same amount of energy to separate the water into hydrogen and oxygen as you get back when you burnt the hydrogen..." has no basis in fact at all. There is no reason for you to think the two would be equal.
    Granted, many devices which can disassociate hydrogen from water use more electricity than it would have taken to power the car with electricity in the first place, but not ALL devices are so wasteful of electricity.
    And another thing, those of you touting all electric pollution free cars may be disappointed to find out that some of the electricity producers pollute the air and water to make that electricity needed to charge the cars.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Granted, many devices which can disassociate hydrogen from water use more electricity than it would have taken to power the car with electricity in the first place, but not ALL devices are so wasteful of electricity.

    This is basic thermodynamics. The energy required to decompose water

    2H20 >> H2 + 2O2

    is exactly the same amount of energy you get back when you burn the hydrogen

    H2 + 2O2 >> 2H20

    but since no machines are thermodynamically perfect, you in fact would get less energy back than you spent in the decomposition of the water in the first place. If this were not the case (and don't we all wish that were the case) then you could build a perpeptual motion machine.

    You can use electricity, gasoline, solar power, nuclear energy -- but you are not going to get more energy out of burning the hydrogen than you had to put in to decompose it in the first place. That is why hydrogen is best thought of as a carrier of energy, not a source of energy.

    Please show me the devices you mention that are "not so wasteful of electricity". This sounds like Nobel prize winning material, as new physical laws have been discovered!
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    I don't have one of those devices so I cannot show you. Mr. Meyer did, and was murdered because of it. Do a Google search.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Oh puleeze, "Mr. Stanley Meyer" was a con artist who singularly failed in his attempts to repeal the laws of thermodynamics.

    Previous statements:

    "How about including a device near the motor which would cheaply and efficiently remove hydrogen from the water in the water (fuel) tank? That hydrogen could be used to explode in the motor. Exhaust gas...oxygen and water vapor.
    Its been done before. But it got its inventor, Mr. Meyer, murdered."


    Hark! Conspiracy theorists unite, here is another cause célèbre.

    "Granted, many devices which can disassociate hydrogen from water use more electricity than it would have taken to power the car with electricity in the first place, but not ALL devices are so wasteful of electricity."

    Nope, the laws of physics and thermodynamics are quite rigid and don't bend even for the likes of "Mr. Meyer".

    "I don't have one of those devices so I cannot show you. Mr. Meyer did, and was murdered because of it. Do a Google search."

    Murdered? You've got to be kidding. The dude was found to be a fraud in a court of law in 1996 and died of a cerebral aneurysm a couple of years later. What perpetual motion machine? What murder? Didn't happen and didn't exist.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    "Please show me the devices you mention that are "not so wasteful of electricity". This sounds like Nobel prize winning material, as new physical laws have been discovered!"

    Agreed. And from the looks of it, we have a few more posters in need of remedial physics and chemistry courses than are candidates for the Nobel Prize. ;)

    Attempting to first split water into hydrogen and oxygen and then recombining them to produce energy is a SIGNIFICANT net energy LOSS, as that first step is very energy inefficient. Producing hydrogen from natural gas is more efficient, but requires the burning of fossil fuels. The company, H2Gen, based in Alexandrai Virginia is one of the leaders in the development of Hydrogen fuel cell technology. If anyone cares to learn a little more google their web site.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Try this discussion: Infiniti G35 Sedan.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    However, you post in the ELLPS forum quite a lot. I have to call you on that one.

    I use to post here quite a bit which I admit. I don't as often because of certain circumstances.

    Rocky
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    I also agree. Let's talk about what can be bought in the showroom today.

    As far as your projection of BMW reliability, you have blueguys perspective on one end and my perspective on the other. As far as CTS quality, I'm sure you understand, that surveys tell the whole story? Right? So if you think you'll be cruising around while my BMW is in the shop...think again. BMWs will go the distance, much more readily than a Cadillac.

    And you're right about the 6 figure 3 series not being an ELLPS, just like the CTS which isn't an ELLPS either.

    I stopped posting here as well. Was very bored of the CTS hyperbole.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    The benchmarks which define this are the BMW 330 and the Audi A4 3.0. But there are many contenders, such as Acura TL-S, Chrysler 300M, Jaguar X-type, Infiniti I35, Mercedes C-Class, Volvo S60 T5. Some companies have contenders that emphasize performance Lexus IS300 or luxury Lexus ES300. And the field is continously growing, with the recent additions being the Cadillac CTS and Infiniti G35.

    The common charateristics of this entry level perfomance luxury group seem to (be) a price around 30 to 40k (US dollars) and 0-60 times between six and eight seconds.


    I quote from Post #1 originating this discussion.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    What ????? The CTS, doesn't fit the bill of a ELLPS car now ??? Good God.

    Well IMHO and others the Lincoln MKZ is here today and is a legit "Entry-Level Luxury Perforance Sedan" It has a V6 with 263 hp that out powers the Acura TL, it also has FWD like the Acura TL, and it also has a more sportier 6-speed automatic, where the TL just has a 5 speed. The other sporty option on the MKZ is the fact that it has a sport suspension and can be bought with AWD which improves handling.

    On the luxury side of the equation the MKZ, has the only ventilated seats in the segment with the exception of Lexus IS 350. The MKZ, also offers it's customers a 500 Watt THX II DVD-Audio surround sound system which is more powerful than any of the competitors. It won awards as having the best "luxury car interior" by wards.

    So in summary if you want a ELLPS that offers just enough sport with even more luxury at a inexpensive price Lincoln, has built you a car. ;)

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Well that fits the MKZ's criteria........ ;)

    Rocky
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    So in summary if you want a ELLPS that offers just enough sport with even more at a inexpensive price Lincoln built you a car.

    Muhahahahahahahahaha.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Muhahahahahahahahaha

    What is that suppose to mean ?

    Rocky
  • laurasdadalaurasdada Member Posts: 4,686
    I think it means that he respectfully disagrees...

    But I'm sure he'll elaborate.

    '21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)

  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    The idea of calling a Lincoln a entry lev lux sport sedan is humorous. Very humorous. It's a FWD Lincoln built on a 6-7 year old Mazda chassis. :)
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Color: Blue Graphite
    Interior: Black w/Nappa Leather Seat Trim

    Base MSRP†: $ 32,130
    Destination Fee: $ 640
    Blue Graphite $ N/C
    Driver & Front Passenger Sport Seats $ STD
    Bi-Xenons Headlights w/AFS $ 950
    Dynaudio Premium Sound System $ 1,000
    DVD Navigation w/iPod Adapter $ 1,800
    Adaptive Cruise Control $ 975
    Rear Side Airbags $ 350
    Rubber Mats (Set of 4) & Trunk Liner $ 185
    Rear Spoiler $ 479
    Ground Effects Kit $ 1,650
    SIRIUS Satellite Radio $ STD
    Nappa Leather Seat Trim $ STD
    Package #1 Sport $ 4,030
    Leather-Wrapped Gearshift Knob & Boot $ STD
    3-Spoke Leather-Wrapped Sport Steering Wheel $ STD
    Brushed Aluminum Trim $ STD
    Manual Side & Rear Sun Shades $ STD
    Automatic Headlights w/Coming Home Feature $ STD
    Climatronic Dual-Zone Automatic Climate Control $ STD
    Fog Lights $ STD
    Heated Front Seats $ 225
    Heated Washer Nozzles $ STD
    HomeLink Garage Door Opener $ STD
    Park Distance Control $ STD
    Rain Sensing Wipers $ STD
    Trunk Storage Net $ STD
    Self-Dimming Rearview Mirror $ STD
    Power Heated Memory Side Mirrors $ STD
    Wheels: 8J x 18" Samarkand Alloy $ 600
    Sport Suspension $ STD
    iPod Adapter $ 199
    Total MSRP: $ 44,189

    Now this is a very safe ELLPS and offers many features not found on BMW's, Mercedes C-Class, Acura TL, Infiniti G35, to just name a few. When this car debuted in Motor Trend they said it was like riding in a Bank Vault. I see quite a few of them roaming the streets of the Texas Panhandle. :)

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    I respect his opinion but I've seen many forum posters elaborate how the Acura TL, is a ELLPS and I just proved why the MKZ is a ELLPS for once and all. ;)

    Just mine and a few others opinions and it's hard to argue facts. :)

    Rocky
Sign In or Register to comment.