Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

plekto · February 2007

Yet its clear that cars get a bit less expensive every generation as well - at least in be entry-level of each segment. You can thank Hyundai and others for putting pressure on the older players.

Afterall, the price increase on a base CTS isn't hardly a blip. The next one may be a little more money, but certainly not 3-4K more.

I think part of it is that $40K+ still sticks in most buyers' minds as "wait a second... that's expensive!" - certainly to people lokoing for "entry-level" anything.

ggesq · February 2007

Buying a 35k-45k ELLPS is not just about making the purchase. People have to factor in TCO. In reality, if folks are taking a second look at the "price" then they really shouldn't be looking in this segment.

dfc3 · February 2007

Whereas I agree that $40,000 shouldn't be a "cap" anymore... maybe something like $45,000 should. As a Mercedes-Benz C Class owner, the C350 (with options) can still be had for well under $45,000, but not under $40,000. I'd imagine the BMW 3 Series would fit the same bill for the best engine/package in the line.

plekto · February 2007

That's just plain silly.

It says at the top of this page:
Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?ncal_id=1223979&car_id=209707423
So tell me why this shouldn't be included as well. It's brand new, and it's under $43K.(a 2007 is $48K, btw)

I can hear it now. Everyone crying "foul!" while at the same time saying that the upper-end/more powerful versions of the Lexus, 3 series, or C-class somehow should be allowed. "But it's not entry-level".

And neither are the high-performance versions of the 3, C, and IS, either. $40K is a good limit because it takes almost of these souped-up sedans out of the competition.
(and technicaly, you can get a 338i for under $40K - so no whining - though it's clearly NOT BMW's entry-level offering, it does squeek under the line)

joe131 · February 2007

and VW is not a luxury nameplate and Passat is not VW's entry level sedan either. Sorry. Don't mention it in here again.
Passat fails to make the grade.

joe131 · February 2007

yeah, these 3 are entry level sedans within their luxury nameplates' offerings. Well, the IS250 is, and the IS350 is pretty much just an optional engine in that entry car.
Price does not determine whether its an ELLPS.

joe131 · February 2007

The arguments keep re-surfacing. Hahaha.
Host defines the breed, and has in the past.
Have the rules changed host?

pat · February 2007

This discussion is about the cars listed at the top of the page. If anyone wants to change the cars being discussed, please start a new discussion. Thanks.

kdshapiro · February 2007

this is precisely the reason.

http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?ncal_id=1223979&car_id=209707423

What is the MSRP on this car, $51K/$52K? Just because GM products have their value fall like rocks is no reason to include them in less expensive segments. With the 335 their MSRP is to expensive, but in the case of CTS-V their supposed retail is within the "range". I think not.

Oh and by the way, have fun buying that car in New Hampshire.

circlew · February 2007

They probably will KILL the CTS anyway....then resurrect it...NO WAIT, Lets call it Eldorado!!!

That is why the US auto industry really can't survive. No definitive direction. MKZ CTS...means nothing in terms of best of breed. Too GENERAL for me anymore.

Regards,
OW

qbrozen · February 2007

I've said it before and I'll say it again, MSRP only!

Hey, my uncle carl's roommate's brother got an M5 for under $40k! So it belongs here! ... uhhhh.... NO! Our only true provable number is the sticker.

tpjcourtney · February 2007

Loved my 98 M3/4, but the E90 335i I just got is better. The only thing I miss about the M3 is the lsd.

Besides that the 335i is better in every way from my point of view. Better brakes, ride quality, quieter, handles as well(I have the spt pkg), more comfortable seats that hold you better as well, nicer interior quality and much more power, expecially down low in the rev range.

The 98 M3 sedan was the ultimate ELLPS in it's time and for quite a few years after, but others have now surpassed it.

tpjcourtney · February 2007

Just a quick question about the list at the top of the page.

Why are the IS250 and 350 listed seperately while the A4, 3 series and C class are listed just once?

Not really important, just wondering.

robbieg · February 2007

Just my two cents. Most people cross shop vehicles based on price and people buy cars based on payments. I find it hard to believe that someone is looking at a base CTS and a 335. There is just too much of a difference in price and monthly payments. Thus, while they are both ELLPS they are not competitors.

Also, MSRP is accurate for the Japanese but is not accurate for Americans. The ELLPS segement should be defined based on model, not price. Lastly, at least we are no longer arguing about the MKZ.

circlew · February 2007

After driving a BMW, a CTS is the farthest thing from even a test drive, IMO.

We can discuss it here for it is the best the US has to offer at this point. The name will probably change soon anyway.

Regards,
OW

qbrozen · February 2007

of course i agree that many cars can be bought for less than msrp, but the reason why i am so adamant that msrp be the only measure when setting up the parameters of a discussion is because, as i posted here long ago, you are asking for trouble when you use anything else. You could have a vehicle thrust into the discussion based on anecdotal evidence of a one in a million deal. And what happens when a car fits the price cap one month due to a special rebate and employee pricing but then goes back to being too expensive the next month? MSRP is the most consistent and reliable measuring stick we have.

And as far as being defined by model, that is a topic we have covered before as well. If it were purely on model, then the TL and S60 would be excluded because they are not the entry-level models of their manufacturers.

blueguydotcom · February 2007

It's the quiet, isolated feeling that drives me nuts about the e9x models. I miss my lighter, louder e46.

frisconick · February 2007

Would you say the entry level for acura would be the TSX ? :surprise:

blueguydotcom · February 2007

I consider both the TSX and TL entry lux cars. Acura/Honda doesn't have what it takes to compete beyond that realm. For some reason they're afraid to offer a mid-size or full size luxury competitor. Then again, they also refuse to offer RWD. Weird.

habitat1 · February 2007

"Then again, they also refuse to offer RWD."

Except, of course in the case of the S2000. It is a conundrum that Honda has produced a $33k limited edition sports car that matches the $50k Boxster and, IMO, crushes the Z4 and SLK in driving dynamics and performance, but has left their mainstream Acuras struggling to compete in the ELLPS market with FWD and the LPS market with AWD and an anemic V6.

I still think my 2004 TL 6-speed at $32k was a nice balance of luxury and performance compared to the 2004 crop of competitors. But now one would need to spend $38k+ for a TL-S to get a manual transmission, no more luxury and slightly more horsepower driving the wrong wheels. The 2007 TL-S is less competitive, IMO than the former 2004 TL 6-speed, relative to its price, performance, value positioning. If I had to do it all over today, I'd likely be on a plane to Germany doing the ED thing.

frisconick · February 2007

For some reason they're afraid to offer a mid-size or full size luxury competitor

What about the RL?

blueguydotcom · February 2007

The RL sells for the high-30s to low 40s. Seriously, it's a massive swing and miss. Acura dealers give them away.

frisconick · February 2007

I agree blueguy, I have talked to dealers and they tell me the TL and TSX are thier big movers.

rockylee · February 2007

Don't mention it in here again.

Please don't ever talk to me that way again.

Passat fails to make the grade.

Only in closed minded individuals

Rocky

allargon · February 2007

I test drove both on the same day. I liked the BMW driving dyamics better. However, I liked the CTS driving dynamics better than those of the Lexus IS 350. I tested all 3 in slushbox configs.

plekto · February 2007

Just my two cents. Most people cross shop vehicles based on price and people buy cars based on payments. I find it hard to believe that someone is looking at a base CTS and a 335. There is just too much of a difference in price and monthly payments. Thus, while they are both ELLPS they are not competitors.

Yet they might very well cross-shop a 330i. $40K, or a $10K range, is more than the manufacturers themselves consider to be a "segment". Raising it to a $15K range is just too much, because, honestly, you are righ. People shop by payment almost exclusively these days. And $35K, maybe pushing it to $40K is vastly different than $45K.

We're talking abot $600 a month versus $900+ a month. That's a whole different level to the first time LPS buyer.
(hence the "entry level" part)

CarsDirect Price: $42,775
Guess what car that is? A BMW 5 series! $45K is more than a 5 series starts at, so $45K is plainly too high a limit.

CarsDirect Price: $44,417
Guess what car this is? A GS350. Again, $45K is too high a range for the sort of car we are discussing.

Cars Direct Target Price: $43,395
This is a Porsche Boxster. And we all know Porsche vastly inflates its prices. Someone looking to spend $45K on a car is in a whole other world than "entry-level" these days.

It and the upper-end/pimped-out/big engine models of the other cars don't really fit the description of "entry-level". The original poster actually said that as well - no souped-up "V/R/etc" type cars.

And, yes, since the 338i is technically under $40K, I have no problem keeping it - though it's obviously probably the most expensive car ANYONE wold possibly consider in this segment. ie - they'll splurge for a base model 338i.. maybe. But certainly not anything else.

bruceomega · February 2007

I'm curious to see what the opinions are after test driving the 2008 CTS when it becomes available. The interior of the new car seems to be a pleasant surprise, so I'm wondering if the driving dynamics might be better than anticipated from the current model.

I haven't looked at an American car in eons, but I have to admit I like the styling from what I've seen in the pictures.

Thanks
Bruce

plekto · February 2007

It should be nice, *If* GM can actually make a proper interior. I'm 110% with Top Gear on this one - American manufacturers idea of luxury is to make a bigger version of the same thing or slap some leather on it. They just don't get it, with maybe 2-3 exceptions.

Hopefully the CTS will be one of them.

NOTE - GM and Ford make excellent luxury cars outside of the U.S., so it's not that they can't - they just choose to nerf us.

cdnpinhead · February 2007

We're talking abot $600 a month versus $900+ a month.

Well, not exactly.

In the first place, most people who find monthly payments of this nature a problem don't buy, they lease. Even beyond that, BMW & Benz (among others) subsidize leases (through money factor and/or residual) to a fare-thee-well. The only time a lease makes sense to me (I can't write it off as a business expense) is when the manufacturer makes the monthly lease payment artifically low. I may actually lease a car next time -- amazing, at least to me. I generally buy & hold.

The people who can actually afford cars in this segment either make the payments you cite, pay cash (or a large fraction) or lease.

If you can't pay, you don't get to play.

dhanley · February 2007

"NOTE - GM and Ford make excellent luxury cars outside of the U.S., so it's not that they can't - they just choose to nerf us."

Hm. Don't agree with that assessment.

The problem(imo) is that the average domestic buyer isn't going to pay $5000 extra for the sort of thing that tends to differentiate us/foreign luxury cars. Perhaps GM could build a caddy as good as a merc. But the average caddy buyer won't pony up the extra $10K not being spent on a bigger vehicle, and the average merc buyer will take their sweet time warming up to cadillac.

I have a buddy with a CTS and even he says the interior sucks. But he wanted a big decent-handling luxury car for cheap, and he likes the exterior.

frisconick · February 2007

I could have afforded a 45k car, but chose the TL because I liked it. :P

blueguydotcom · February 2007

Price is a secondary consideration. I want to find something I enjoy, then figure out my best price on it.

frisconick · February 2007

The instant I saw the TL on the road, I knew I had to test drive it. I didn't know how much it cost, but knew it was a top candidate. I test drove all kinds of cars, but the TL was for me.

kdshapiro · February 2007

Agreed 100%. I would rather drive a stripped BMW than a loaded Lexus or loaded G35. I figure out what I like and then make the price fit. I don't try to see how many gadgets and knick-knacks I can get for a certain price and then say I have a car that has more value because mine has leather and yours doesn't.

rockylee · February 2007

I'd rather have the bells and whistles I'm going to use every day than be worried if my car can out corner the car next to me as it is likely that isn't going to happen except on a track and how many of us actually do that ?????

I think straightline performance is most important for everyday use and pretty much all ELLPS cars can out handle most other cars they will face and if such a occasion does arrive where you are racing another person I doubt it's going around a track. High speed stability probably will be your #1 concern. The bottom line is for the majority of users the luxury part is most important but I suppose many like knowing I guess for bragging rights their car handles better than yours ? :confuse:

Rocky

blueguydotcom · February 2007

While the power is nice, I tend to opt for handling over other features. There are plenty of legal opportunities to take advantage of our cars' handling prowess.

My favorite on the daily commute:

A banked, tight 270 degeee 3 lane on-ramp.

A series of banked corners and switchbacks that transition me from a feeder road onto a variety of different freeways (3 freeway choices, usually pretty open at 8 am).

Feeder road that runs parallel to the freeway - use it quite often as a shortcut. Sweeping corners, hills, twists...good stuff.

Those are every day. Things for me. If I didn't have that, man, I might go loco.

You can take the sound systems, navi, butt-massaging seats and window shades. Give me a manual, a decent chassis and a good amount of power...I'll take the fun from there.

fedlawman · February 2007

It looks nice in metallic grey with those gunmetal wheels. I peeked inside to see the interior and saw - a slushbox!

Who would spend the extra $6000 over a base TL and then get the slushbox on top?!?!

What a waste.

kdshapiro · February 2007

"The bottom line is for the majority of users the luxury part is most important but I suppose many like knowing I guess for bragging rights their car handles better than yours ?"

You hit the nail on the head. But then it depends on what you like to brag about. If you like to brag that your car has a 1000 watt 20 speaker system, more power to you. If you like to brag about your cars HP and handling prowess more power to you.

designman · February 2007

There are plenty of legal opportunities to take advantage of our cars' handling prowess.

Not quite. Take a look at posted speeds on ramps. You can exceed those speeds in a rickshaw. The good news is that I can't recall seeing anyone pulled over for speeding on a ramp. It seems the man just doesn't look for that. Big knock on wood here.

blueguydotcom · February 2007

Got me there. It's exceedingly rare for a cop to snag you for taking a 35 mph freeway offramp at 70.

kyfdx · February 2007

I always assumed that those little yellow ramp speed signs were just suggestions?

That's my story and I'm sticking to it..

venture · February 2007

I always assumed that those little yellow ramp speed signs were just suggestions?

That's exactly what they are.

The yellow signs with speed "limits" on them are Advisory signs, not Regulatory signs and are not enforceable...at least in Pennsylvania, and not unless something has changed in the last year or two.

nyccarguy · February 2007

I have to disagree with rockylee. Pretty much any vehicle out there can move on the highway at way above legal speeds (evidence was the '97 2 Door Explorer riding my rear end at 80 mph this AM on my way to work). I see (on a regular basis) '89 Toyota Camrys (the boxy ones), '92 Explorers, & beat up Dodge Neons exceeding 85 mph (not a lot for you California People, but here in southern NY the speed limit is 55, 50, & even 45mph on many highways). I ALWAYS move over and let people pass. When the exit ramps come up going from a Northbound highway to an eastbound highway I can take those ramps at least double the suggested speed limit (with my winter wheels/tires). They've got to hit the brakes! The twisties & exit ramps keep me going! Driving straight along a highway is so mundane.

plekto · February 2007

My friend in high school got a Hyundai Excel as his first car. And he routinely drove 90mph on the freeway with it.

So even the worst cars ever made can still get you a ticket.

circlew · February 2007

Perhaps Mercedes has learned what I have felt for years! What were they thinking in '98???

I just pray for the thousands of folks who will get the pink slips soon. Again, management confusion results in big changes.

Regards,
OW

cdnpinhead · February 2007

You're right, in ALL states. I drove professionally in most of them, and orange signs are, just as you said, advisory.

The regulatory ones are black on white. That's why the temporary construction speed limit signs (which everyone seems to ignore) are white.

I too enjoy certain 270 degree on-ramps. It's fun to leave the hotshot who was tailgating at 70 a quarter mile behind as I take the ramp (posted 25) at 60.

meateater · February 2007

It's fun to leave the hotshot who was tailgating at 70 a quarter mile behind as I take the ramp (posted 25) at 60.

And then what? Have the hotshot pull up beside you at the next stoplight?

fedlawman · February 2007

"My friend in high school got a Hyundai Excel as his first car. And he routinely drove 90mph on the freeway with it."

His name wasn't Rodney, was it? :P

rockylee · February 2007

lol.....

Rocky

cdnpinhead · February 2007

It sounds like you take no pleasure from going around corners quickly.

I do.

Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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