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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    No circlew. Your analysis is lacking.
    Size, cost and performance are the issues.

    EPA size pass/cargo... price... Horsepower
    328i... 93 / 12... 32,400... 230
    335i... 93 / 12... 38,700... 300
    530i... 99 / 14... 47,700... 255
    CTS... 99 / 13... 32,685... 255
    750li... 105 / 18... 78,100.. 360
    DTS perf... 112 / 19... 48760... 292

    See how cost went up to get better performance? See how one trait may compromise the others? See how the small car (335i) has better performance than the bigger ones? See how Cadillacs are cheaper but bigger but not so well performing as the little BMW cars?
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Yes, I see your point. My choice would be BMW over Cadillac in every one of your categories.

    Thanks,
    OW
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    I think BMW is the ultimate driving machine. No one else compares in a sedan.
    But I've never bought one. My priorities do not encourage it.
    The Mini is the new BMW 2002. Both fun cars. And, I hear a more basic Z will come out soon too. Good moves, BMW !
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    I assume there is a wide demographic spread for the vehicles in this category. The price range is from $30K-$48K in general.

    Who is the target market for these cars and who consitently sells the most in each income break?

    Regards,
    OW
  • wale_bate1wale_bate1 Member Posts: 1,982
    Performance (and not just driving in a straight line) can be priceless.

    Smaller (than a CTS) is better.

    Axioms for a Sunday... ;)
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    The car feels huge to me - heck my e46 was big too. I guess it's all perception...
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Coming from a Lincoln LS, the car feels small to me.

    Considering I've had U.S. vehicles all my life an never any of the other ELLPS candidates, I think I did OK, considering what I've learned from all of the excellent commentary from this board and my experience so far.

    I can tell you I was never treated so well as a customer than this experience from BMW.

    Regards,
    OW
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,505
    . . . solid engineering and long-term refinement.

    This, I think, is the crux of the discussion, particularly where North American competition (to the BMW) is concerned. I bought into the Lincoln LS hype back in '99 & ended up with the first manual-transmission-equipped Lincoln in 50 years or so. I'm guessing it'll be at least that long until there's another one. I was so looking forward to replacing my V6 manual LS (the manual was only available with the 6) with a V8 manual, along with other tweaks that result from several years of production & feedback from the field -- I figured by the time I was ready to unload my car a much superior version would be available. What I got instead was the cancellation of the manual altogether, and the LS itself not long after. This is a car with an aluminum hood & front fenders, as well as suspension parts, anti-dive suspension, ventilated rear discs (ten consecutive stops from high speed with no fade) & a number of other things that caught my fancy & convinced me Lincoln/Ford was serious about the car. Oh well.

    Anyway, refinement, incremental improvement & fixing what breaks is what makes a superior product -- not throwing the whole damn thing out every five years or so and starting over. I still enjoy my LS, but would never buy another American car in this class, even though the CTS does have merit. Fool me once. . .

    I prefer to deal with an automobile company that takes sports sedans (& wagons) seriously and has done so for decades.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    You say it so much more eloquently than I. Enough said, IMO.

    Regards,
    OW
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    530i... 99 / 14... 255... 47,700
    CTS... 99 / 13... 255... 32,685
    ****
    I rearranged the data a little to read easier.

    I think this pretty much plants the CTS as a 5 series clone - or an attempt to be one. Same size, same power, and well, it looks like better handling. For less money.

    Yeah - the 3 series is its own thing. Cadillac doesn't DO small cars, afterall, anymore than say, Buick makes a S2000 competitor. :P

    That Cadillac will have a CTS this next fall for roughly $35K that's close to a 5 series is no mean feat. $15K buys a LOT of goodies on the CTS and then some.
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    HOw about posting road test complete performance stats for the two cars?
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    the interior room thing has been tried before, why don't you open a new thread to talk about interior volume per dollar. If I were in the market for 550, the CTS = 550 with $20 grand saved would not compute.
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    huh?
  • hausshauss Member Posts: 169
    Just curious but does anyone over 6 feet tall and 180 lbs find the BMW 3 series to be spacious and comfortable? I'd love to hear from that contingent what they think. I've driven and been a passenger in several of my friends models over the years and I've always felt cramped and miserable. My friends that are a similar size to me have felt the same way. I'm 6' 1" and ~200 lbs. To me I have to be comfortable in a car to qualify it as something I'd drive every day which is why I'd never drive one of those (or a MB C or Audi A4 or Volvo S60) every day. Those models are just WAY wrong for me. It's hard to notice or appreciate the chassis when I'm struggling to find a comfortable spot in the driver's seat.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    Have you ever thought that maybe, just maybe, BMW is gouging a TAD for that image? I mean, there's just no way a Porsche SUV is worth what they charge, either, yet they seem to have no problem jacking up the price because of that little logo on the hood.

    The current CTS is already better than the 525i, so something's just not right considering the price difference alone.

    Trust me. The 2008 CTS will be better than the 5 series for a lot less money. Shoot, the 5 and 7 series aren't as good as some of the Japanese competitors, either. The 3 - yeah, it's a rocket and worth the money, but the 5 and 7 need some serious updating and vision because the competition is coming for them with both all blazing.

    2007 CTS 3.6l. 6.6 Seconds 15.0 quarter mile
    1993 Porsche 968 6.6 Seconds 14.9 quarter mile
    2007 525i 7.3 Seconds 16.7 quarter mile
    2007 530i 6.6 Seconds 14.7 quarter mile

    BMW's got very little breathing room in 2008 by the looks of it :)
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    "BMW's got very little breathing room in 2008 by the looks of it"

    By the looks of it, your postings of 0-60 and quarter mile times shows that you've got very little clue as to what driving dynamics are all about and why BMW has little to worry about from GM. And if you are simply trying to win stop light drag races, you can do a boatload better than a CTS which depreciates to half its value in about the time it takes to complete that quarter mile. :P

    P.S.

    Porsche Cayenne S: 6.4 seconds; 14.6 quarter mile :P
    Porsche Cayenne Turbo: 4.9 seconds; 13.2 quarter mile :P :P
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    2008 528i zero to sixty: 6.5 Seconds
    2008 535i zero to sixty: 5.5 Seconds

    Just keeping things up to date. ;-)

    Oh, and superior driving dynamics compared to a CTS? That my friends is in the base suspension. Add the Sport Package and things get even better. ;-)

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • nkeennkeen Member Posts: 313
    Ah, but the Cayenne is neither car nor Porsche. ;)
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    Did I miss something?

    Since when did the BMW 5 become a member of the ELLPS class? Has it somehow fallen out of favor as an LPS member?

    Or, somehow, has the rumor and speculation about the new CTS allowed it to join the LPS class before it is even reviewed?

    If we're going to talk about wheelbase, cubic this thats and the other thing, why isn't there mention of similarly sized cars from Hyundai? That spanky top o' the line model is, after all, comparable to a BMW 7 (in size). It says so in all the adverts. :confuse:

    Spent wheel time again this weekend in a 2007 Chrysler 300 AWD "Limited." Lovely car, great MSRP, considering it has "a lot" if not almost all the amenities that come in the ELLPS and/or LPS class.

    Yet I get out of a 2007 300 with 1,000 miles on the OD into a 2005 Audi A6 with 30,000+ miles on it, and the Audi feels newer, tighter, more controlled, refined, smooth, etc. The 300 seems somehow looser, not quite as precise in its steering, a little bit unrefined and floaty at speeds over 65. But with a nice long wheelbase, good leather, a decent stereo with Sirius Radio, and power pedals even -- what a lot of car for the money. Heck it has ESP and some fine Mercedes underwear. Upgraded 18" wheels and tires round out the package as do easily modulated and smooth four corner disk brakes.

    For the money, apparently, nothing even comes close -- but for pity's sake, it isn't in the same class as the other LPS cars (or even some of these ELLPS cars.)

    The current CTS (also a car that I've driven extensively) is very competent and nearly as tight as the "real" LPS cars. But, to keep comparing cars based soley on wheelbase or 0-60 times or cubic hectares per fortnight seems (to me) to miss the point.

    Shipo, the question stands, did the 5 series somehow fall from grace? Could the new CTS, not even out yet, already be the newest LPS? :confuse:
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    Right...and wrong ;)
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    No worries Mark, I was just responding to some marginally accurate statements regarding the acceleration of the current (and very soon to be discontinued) 525i and 530i.

    As far as I know, the 5-Series is still and will continue to be one of the benchmark holders of the LPS class of cars.

    Oh, and the CTS? Even with the impending new model, I trust it will continue to be an also-ran in the ELLPS category. :P

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    To elaborate on the Caddy representing this segment, the true test of even staying on the list in this forum is apparently more appropriate.

    As usual, this US manufacturer is off the mark because the CTS tries to compete with too many models in different segments. I can't expect anything unique coming from the Catera family line. Hopefully, they kill it off soon.

    It is up to the Host, of course, to decide that for this forum..

    Regards,
    OW
  • hausshauss Member Posts: 169
    Can you even say those numbers are accurate when the cars aren't even coming off the assembly line yet?
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "Can you even say those numbers are accurate when the cars aren't even coming off the assembly line yet?"

    I could tell you how I know that, but then I'd have to kill you. ;-)

    FWIW, I believe that the cars are now coming off the assembly line and will start appearing on our shores sometime between mid April and mid May. As for the times I posted, ummm, let's just say that BMW has a habit of being conservative with these numbers, and that the tests that'll start showing up in magazine in a month or two will most likely best these times.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • hausshauss Member Posts: 169
    My only point is that we can only speculate on the performance of those cars because no one has driven one of them yet.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    Based on your posts I would assume you are an avid BMW fan. First of all the current CTS (and many other RWD vehicles) is very close to the 5 in terms of handling, especially if you're talking about the V. I see that your perceptions of CAdillac are stuck somewhere in the 1990s but most of the press and those who follow the industry realize Cadillac is capable of building sporty RWD sedans. If you think the current or next CTS will be an also ran than you dont know much about the car at all.

    The 535 better be fast when you consider how much it costs. Sure it will be fastest in class, but how much will you pay to get that extra .3secs in the quarter mile?
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    "I can't expect anything unique coming from the Catera family line. Hopefully, they kill it off soon. "

    A new CTS is coming out in august with a 300hp DI 3.6 V6, AWD and 6 speed auto. The car sold well so your contention that the car was "off the mark" is somewhat baseless. The CTS didnt outsell cars like the 3 series because it only has two three engines and one body style. COnsidering the lack of depth in its model lineup the car did well and it increased in sales from 2002 through 2005 topping out at close to 60K units I believe.
  • wale_bate1wale_bate1 Member Posts: 1,982
    equal success.

    Volume, however, is no indicator of greatness. Lexus sells a whole lot of the ES; personally, I'd rather shove my head up a dead goat's butt than be stuck in an ES...

    CTS is a crossover, IMO. It prices against a 3, but sizes against a 5. Way too big for my tastes, as has become the 3.

    When we were talking E39 (especially 2003), the 5 was worth taking along the extra bulk, IMO, if for nothing else than just to look at.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "Based on your posts I would assume you are an avid BMW fan."

    There are fans and then there are fans. Personally I would have no problem buying a competitor, IF, they built a better and more enjoyable car. Case in point, Lexus hyped the Gen2 IS as a better 3-Series. Went there, drove it, walked away shaking my head. Sorry, not even close, rather have a G35.

    "First of all the current CTS (and many other RWD vehicles) is very close to the 5 in terms of handling, especially if you're talking about the V."

    The "V" is a factory tuner special and for the purposes of this discussion, completely irrelevant. As for the current CTS being very close to the handling of the current 5-Series, don't be ridiculous. I've driven both, several times, and the base non-SP 5-Series will easily keep up with the best a CTS has to offer. Add the SP to the 5-Series and the CTS is left in the dust.

    "But wait!" You cry, "The specs indicate that they're virtually the same." Uh-huh. Maybe on a glass smooth road with nary a single inch deviation for the next 100 miles. However, put them both on real roads and it's "Bye-bye CTS."

    "I see that your perceptions of CAdillac are stuck somewhere in the 1990s but most of the press and those who follow the industry realize Cadillac is capable of building sporty RWD sedans."

    Ummm, please show me where I said that weren't capable of building sporty RWD sedans. Compared to a Honda Accord, yes, the CTS is sporty, compared to either a 3-Series or a 5-Series, sorry, the CTS is sorely lacking.

    "If you think the current or next CTS will be an also ran than you dont know much about the car at all."

    Are you suggesting that I bow to your superior automotive knowledge? Sorry, no thanks.

    "The 535 better be fast when you consider how much it costs. Sure it will be fastest in class, but how much will you pay to get that extra .3secs in the quarter mile?"

    Hmmm, the cost is the cost, pay it or drive something else. Who cares? As for your stated 0.3 second difference, ummm, compared to what?

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    I have never driven a CTS and do not plan to even if it had 500 HP and 1.5G in the skid pad and was $10K less than a comparable BMW (read M-Car). All of the other not-so-great factors that apply to the U.S. brand stick very close to home with me. Resale, service, fun factor, looks, etc.

    When I think about the top of the U.S. Auto Manufacturers, I look over and see Mt. Everest in the rest of the world! Trucks are still OK but watch out for those mountains!

    Just my personal experience talking here.

    About the only car that is made by a U.S. name I would buy would be a C6 'Vette because of heritage, fun factor and resale.

    Regards,
    OW
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    Call me a pervert if you want.
    Ok, I own both a Lexus ES and a dead goat. C'mon over, I gotta see it to believe you.
  • wale_bate1wale_bate1 Member Posts: 1,982
    Zat mean you're giving the ES away? :P

    I get stuck in either an ES or RX whenever my services are due. Can't stand them personally. Make me feel totally disconnected from the road.

    Diff'rent strokes, to a certainty...
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    No, but I'll offer to stick you in it or let you stick your head in the other.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    1. Sorry, but I would rank the opinion of various auto magazines over yours. Since most agree that the CTS is a capable RWD sports sedan I think at this point its pretty much an accepted fact. If you chose to disregard this fact based on your high speed test drive, so be it.

    2. The CTS has a sports package (or model) just like BMW and thus your test drive experience may have been affected by what you drove. Since you apparently dont like Cadillacs I doubt this really mattered to you but I thought i would make the point.

    3. The current CTS was only considered an also ran once all of its competitors were revamped. It wasnt an also ran compared to the last gen G35, IS, 3 series, A4 or 5 series. The new car has impressed all the journalists that have seen it and most cant wait to test it this summer. Also ran isnt even a consideration.

    I can tell by your comments that you are unwilling to give credit where its due to 3 or 5 series competitors so I wont pretend facts will change your position. If you honeslty believe that the IS350 and CTS arent even in the same ballpark with the BMW models than you are not being realistic.

    "Series, sorry, the CTS is sorely lacking. "

    According to you, but not to those who own or have test driven the car over the last 5 years. In 2004 it beat 6 other luxury sedans in a R&T test. But hey, what do they know? If you said it stinks than it must be so.
  • wale_bate1wale_bate1 Member Posts: 1,982
    You in Jersey, Joe?
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    Only 'til dinnertime. After I eat I'm back to Arkansas. But if you come over this afternoon, I'm skipping dinner.
  • wale_bate1wale_bate1 Member Posts: 1,982
    The new IS is a pig with forward thrust and isolation chambering as its character references. It doesn't even approach joyous expression unless the sport package is purchased.

    Talk about the wrong emphases.

    Not a contender, IMO.
  • wale_bate1wale_bate1 Member Posts: 1,982
    I'll bet! LOL!
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    Actually, if swine-like, more like a piglet.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    "I have never driven a CTS and do not plan to even if it had 500 HP and 1.5G in the skid pad and was $10K less than a comparable BMW (read M-Car). All of the other not-so-great factors that apply to the U.S. brand stick very close to home with me. Resale, service, fun factor, looks, etc. "

    Maybe you should drive and research the car before trashing it. Just a suggestion but then again you seem to be a CTS expert already so why bother. As for looks, many would argue the 5 series isnt the prettiest car on the road. I think the current CTS and 5 series are OK looking but not great. The new CTS however is great looking and addresses all the styling weaknesses of the current car. As for service, Cadillac always ranks high in dealer satisfaction and I have yet to see BMW at the top of the rankings. Usually Cadillac, Lexus and Jaguar do very well. German dealerships arent known for top notch customer service so I dont get your point. I think if you drove a CTS or STS you would reconsider your "fun factor" hesitation. IN normal service on regular roads I am sure the CTS is more than capable of entertaining you. The car was developed on the Nurburgring track contrary to what Shipo would have you believe.

    German cars have better resale but they better do something well considering how much they cost.

    People who buy German cars and act like the extra money is for more than brand image are delusional. Sorry, but there is no subsantive reason to pay $10k more for a German luxury car vs a Cadillac or Lexus. German automakers have convinced Americans that their vehicles are worth a hefty premium over other luxury cars when there is nothing to back up this premium in terms of warranty, dealer service, reliability, performance, etc. There was a performance edge at one time but the new Cadillac and Lexus models are erasing that fast. For an example compare the 2008 CTS and C class.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    "Hmmm, the cost is the cost, pay it or drive something else. Who cares? As for your stated 0.3 second difference, ummm, compared to what? "

    I would say the 535 is likely to be slightly faster than the 300hp CTS due to its abundant torque. My point is I wouldnt pay a $5k premium to get a 535 just because is imperceptably faster than the CTS, especially when I like the new CTS' interior better.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Clearly anything I say will be discounted by any and all CTS apologists, so I won't even bother going there again..

    As for the IS, their corporate executives made all kinds of glowing promises as to what the car was going to be able to do and what you'd be able to do with it.

    Then the car hit the streets. Ugh. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and so I won't go there. That said, my (then) eight and eleven year old children couldn't get comfortable in the back seat with me in front, and I'm only 5'8", meaning to me that the IS is only a sedan in name. Once under way the isolation from the road was so pronounced that I couldn't "feel" where the limits of the car were and as such, the car felt very dangerous to push anywhere near the limits. Then there is the whole manual transmission thing. If you're going to promote your car as a 3-Series beater, you damn well better offer a manual gearbox. Infiniti tried that back in what, 2002? At least they learned their lesson.

    So, comparing a Gen2 IS350 to the now defunct 330i, the BMW was able to comfortably accommodate my family, it had a very communicative suspension (in spite of the RFTs) that completely blew the Lexus suspension out of the water, and it has a wonderful 6-Speed manual gearbox instead of some mind numbing slushbox. Given these criteria, the IS really isn't even close.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "My point is I wouldnt pay a $5k premium to get a 535 just because is imperceptably faster than the CTS, especially when I like the new CTS' interior better."

    You actually like the CTS interior? And you accuse me of being biased. :P I will admit one thing here, while the exterior of the new CTS is still as butt ugly as the old one, the interior is MUCH improved. Still doesn't do it for me though.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    Its not about CTS apologists. Its about you disregarding a lot of evidence that the CTS is a decent RWD sports sedan because you personally dont like it. Sorry, but you should take up your beef with the auto writers whos said the car was a legit contender to the 5 series when it came out in 2002. Nothing you say can prove the CTS is an also ran sports sedan so lets just agree that you dont like the car and could care less about its merits.

    You are saying the the IS was way too small but the 3 series was spacious? OK, thats the first I've heard of that. The IS doesnt offer a sport suspension but everyone who has tested the car has had mostly positive comments about the suspension. I dont recall anyone saying it was as soft as you're saying.

    If you want a manual (which most people do not want) with the big V6 than obviously the IS350 isnt the car for you. BTW, I dont even like the car due to its styling but its a great value in this class. You say you value manual trannies and the CTS has one but you are trashing the CTS. Interesting.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    Most people like the new CTS interior. Do you read any online or print car mags? No one has criticized the CTS interior as far as I can tell. As for the exterior, that has been the focus of much praise as well. Most auto journalists have agreed the new CTS is a great looking car and should be a formidable competitor in this class. I dont see how sharing that viewpoint makes me biased. Perhaps you could explain that. In my book biased would be if I was saying the CTS was potentially best in class when all evidence available says otherwise. I am merely agreeing with what many respected experts have said after seeing the car at the NAIAS.

    Only a die hard Cadillac hater could honestly say the 2008 CTS is butt ugly. You are the first anti domestic guy (and there are thousands here on Edmunds) to say with a straight face (i assume) that the new CTS is ugly and you arent impressed in any way. Wow. I guess if Bangle had designed it you would have been on board though.
  • wale_bate1wale_bate1 Member Posts: 1,982
    The IS has an optional sport supension as part of a $3K or so "sport pkg". It may or may not be playing at a dealer near you. Depending on zip code, it doesn't even show up on the configurator.

    Without it, the car is a good moderate handler in the class. As Shipo says, the isolation chamber feeling is disconcerting to anyone who actually enjoys driving a car.

    For those who can't fit their kids in the back seat of an IS or 3... well :confuse: is all I can say.

    Lexus rediscovered its core customer doesn't really give a rat's about the real driving. It's the Mark Levinson cocoon that sells...
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    I wasnt aware of the sport package. I suppose the IS350s that have been tested had that feature. BMWs without the sport package are just average (for the class, not compared to FWD family cars) handlers as well so I dont see a big deal. To say the non sport IS is an isolation chamber like the ES or LS seems to be a gross exagerrations. I think you are making that statement based on Lexus' reputation as opposed to reality. Not that care either way because I am not really a Lexus fan. I just give credit where it's due.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    I've driven the IS350 twice now. It's isolated and not at all fun, for me. That said, my e90 is too isolated too.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    The problem with the CTS is that it will never be as communicative and responsive to the likes of the BMW and Audi because it is not engineered to do so. The chasis changes so many times, you loose something each time and the necessary tuning never is established to meet any particular criteria of performance.

    You need to experience the difference yourself. Have you ever driven one of these BMW babies for any length of time?? This car is like putting on a set of wheels, chassis and engine and hooking it to your brain. The best is when you drive something else and you are at a loss!!

    Not so with any US designed car. Let me know when you can experience this by driving one vs. the CTS. Then you will know which is better.

    Regards,
    OW
  • wale_bate1wale_bate1 Member Posts: 1,982
    "To say the non sport IS is an isolation chamber like the ES or LS seems to be a gross exagerrations..."

    But that's about what I'm saying. The difference is slight, and only an expression of bulk.

    Handling NVH is one thing, but plushing out what is supposed to be a "sport" offering to near morphine extent goes a step beyond, thus proving, by the commercial success of this latest iteration, that the core Lexus customer cares little for the actual driving, but for the trappings, some bragging rights, and an array of techno-garble and padding that passes somehow for luxury.

    They (Toyota) do have a leg up in one regard: they make and install, without doubt, the best non-upgrade brakes available shy of Porsche. IMO, of course.

    Staying out of the 5/CTS comparo mostly, I can say that Caddy hasn't yet proved they can do a world class interior, so I'll be very, very surprised if the '08 will turn my head in that regard. As for exterior styling, well Art & Science never worked for me. It's cartoonish. Like the 300, there is a certain gangsta quality that appeals to me in no way, and yet is has worked well for them. OTOH, what Bangle has done for the 5, a car that used to make me drool (even more than goats), is criminal at best by comparison to its previous gen...
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