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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    Car & Driver shows top speed of the G35 limited to 158 by a governor.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    This could be why infiniti redesigned the car and made improvements.

    Yeah they muted NVH, removed road feel, made the car heavier, ruined interior space and overall dumbed the car down. Luckily, BMW did the same with the e90s. So in effect the "improvements" made the cars worse but still equally far apart.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    "According to your theory, the Accord EX V6 or an Altima/Maxima V6 is a better buy than a G35 ot a TL, right? Then why buy a G or a TL at all? "

    Valid point. You dont get much more in the entry luxury class than you do with a fully loaded midsize car these days. I was trying to limit my price comparisons to cars in this class. There are plenty of cars cheaper than the 3 series, but unless they are in this class I dont think its relevant.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    There are many here who look for the budget angle - what car provides the most bang for the buck. Like those 1980s Motor Trend articles about which low priced cars give you the most performance per dollar. In this case, it seems most want luxury and some performance for the dollar.

    Others see value in pleasure. They feel their pleasure in a car is worth X cost. They may value things others do not care about or they may discount elements some take as necessary.

    eBay is a good example of personal valuation. Take two products that fulfill the same goal - like cell phones. Put them up for auction. One day you may get some nut who pays almost MSRP for a brand new Samsung SCH-U740. The other phone is a brand new Motorola V325 and it ends up selling for $100 less. Is that what the two products are worth? Well to the buyers, the products are worth at least that much because the bidding process found their personal valuations.

    I hear about people paying 50k for a 335i with active steering, premium package, automatic, sun shade, laser cruise and navigation and feel shocked. My personal valuation of such a car is significantly lower than a 335i with just the sport package and manual. I would consider the previous car only if it were sharply discounted - at least 6-7k less than my price of a 6mt ZSP version.

    BMW may mark the car at 50k; I'd mark it at 28k expressly because of the items on the car. My personal valuation is infinitely lower than the corporation's requested value. Neither side is right or wrong; we have differing views and thus will not find ourselves conducting a transaction on that product.

    So when you say a G35 is the budget alternative, it could be to you. To someone who values other things - less perceptible differences - the G35 may represent a compromise that distorts that individual's personal valuation.
  • hausshauss Member Posts: 169
    Propeller?
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    "Yeah they muted NVH, removed road feel, made the car heavier, ruined interior space and overall dumbed the car down. Luckily, BMW did the same with the e90s. So in effect the "improvements" made the cars worse but still equally far apart. "

    According to you, but road tests of the car dont back that up. Saying the 328/335 is slightly more connected than the G35 isnt the same as saying the G35 is a sloppy mess as you suggest. There is a difference between just a hair behind the best in class and being an Avalon. You are dealing in absolutes as in a car can only be a 3 series OR a piece of crap. No one (outside of this forum) has suggested the G35 isnt a great car with excellent handling, a nice engine and more than acceptable ride and steering characteristics. You have to be the only person I have heard infer the old G35 was better than the current one. I dont believe that view is widely held.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    The question I have with a statement like this...

    You dont get much more in the entry luxury class than you do with a fully loaded midsize car these days.

    is that even though it is your opinion, I would ask you why would YOU would ever buy any of these ELLPS if that is what you think?

    I know why I did but I am curious if you would buy at the "high price" in this class. I know I could have gotten a loaded Avalon for cheaper....but I would sleep in it more than drive it.

    Regards,
    OW
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    The general theme here is that the G is an inferior car for less money and the sophisticated buyer isnt willing to "sacrifice" just to save a few grand. My question is this: what exactly is one sacrificing if they buy the "inferior" G35? Same would apply for the '08 CTS or C350. We can talk about subjective intangibles all day, but in the end you arent really giving up anything if you pass on the 3 series. The G35 has a better interior, slightly more room, lower price and likely superior reliability so I dont see any sacrifice. Sure, the G35 MAY come up short in a battle at the racetrack but I'm willing to bet most owners (even BMW owners) dont subject their car to that kind of environment. In short, I dont think G35 owners feel like they took the "cheap" way out and compromised just to pinch pennys.
  • kcleukkcleuk Member Posts: 45
    Hi,

    I live in IOWA and I am thinking of getting a Lexus IS250. But I can't decide on the RWD or AWD.

    I was thinking of getting the RWD with Navi cause the AWD with Navi is too expensive. If I get the AWD, then I would give up on Navi.

    However, I've heard about RWD being really bad in the winter. Can someone please advise. Thanks.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    1487, I test drove the 2005 G35 coupe. Fast and nice handling but cheaper feel and a lot of wind noise past 70 MPH. Interior was not up to par for this class but was improved on in '07.

    I did not like the sedan looks but the new one is quite appealing. Look forward to the new TL as you have stated and I might take a look at the CTS for S&G's.

    I refuse to repeat vs. 3 series...you know the drill.

    Regards,
    OW
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    "The TL is an outstanding value and this fact is recognized my almost everyone. It gives you a lot for the money and it a far more reasonably priced than a 328i."

    Funny, I just priced a base TL and a 328i with leather (because I know some folks care about that)) and they came within $300 of each other.

    TL = $34,300
    328i = $34,600.

    So, how exactly is the TL "far more reasonably priced?"
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    For those that wont drive FWD cars its apparent they need to look in the ELS category for a car. If we put aside drive wheels and look at performance and features we find that many cars in this class seem overpriced compared to loaded "regular" cars. Of course a loaded Camry or Altima doesnt come with the same prestige as a luxury branded saloon so many people would much rather drive a base model A4 or 328 as opposed to a loaded non luxury car.

    I dont think fun to drive cars are limited to RWD so I wouldnt be pressed to buy a car in this class NEW unless I could comforably afford it. I would definitely get a used '08 CTS or G35 though. There is little value in luxury cars these days, especially since technology is racing to the lower end of the market like never before. Features that were luxury exclusives a few short years ago are now found on cars under $25k. Of course many will argue the extra money is worth it due to "driving feel" and "things you only notice if you're a BMW owner" and all that. Dont buy it. If these same cars were branded Nissans or Pontiacs interest in them would drop significantly, especially amongst sport sedan poser owners who buy based on the badge.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    Features. The TL is loaded at that price. Add memory, heated seats, leather, sunroof, top sound system, etc. to the 328. It is pointless to compare prices without mentioning equipment levels. The Maxima loaded up costs more than a base 328i but it has WAY more equipment so it would be ridiculous to say the 328 is as affordable as the Maxima.
  • goodegggoodegg Member Posts: 905
    Both the G and the 328 were too small for me, but they definitely go head to head.

    What I don't get is how everyone has decided BMW's newly turbo-ed 335 is as reliable as the G's (or others' in this comparo)proven power plant. This engine could end up being a total thorn in the paw.

    I wouldn't buy any turbo-ed car.
  • 03accordman03accordman Member Posts: 671
    "Valid point. You dont get much more in the entry luxury class than you do with a fully loaded midsize car these days. I was trying to limit my price comparisons to cars in this class. There are plenty of cars cheaper than the 3 series, but unless they are in this class I dont think its relevant"

    Exactly. Why even buy any cars in this class at all? The TL and Accord are the same platform; and both are excellent vehicles. How does one looking for value justify buying a TL over as Accord? A couple of minor suspension upgrades will put the Accord fairly close to the TL in ride/handling.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    " I might take a look at the CTS for S&G's. "

    I'm not sure what you mean by that but I assume you mean you will take a look at the CTS just for fun but have no intentions of liking the car. What are you basing this on? What do you find lacking in the new CTS? I have been in the G35's new interior several times and I like it but I would be shocked if the new CTS interior isnt superior. The curretne SRX interior is extremely nice and I suspect the CTS interior will be even better. If thats the case, I would rank the CTS interior above the G35. I am already ranking the CTS superior in exterior styling because I am lukewarm about the G's shape. A little too dull and evolutionary.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    "The TL is loaded at that price. Add memory, heated seats, leather, sunroof, top sound system, etc. to the 328."

    The "base" 328i comes standard with memory, heated seats, moonroof, and AM/FM/CD/MP3 10 speaker audio system. Add leather interior, and it costs $300 more than a TL.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    I think we all know the TL has FAR more features than the Accord. HIDs, memory, 14more hp, superior interior, Dolby 5.1 sound system, XM nav traffic, trip computer, etc. If the engine is your only concern than there is no reason to buy the TL.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    Just checked here on edmunds. A 328 with leather, HIDs, 8way seats with memory, Logic7 sound, auto and heated seats will run you $39,590 with automatic. Subtract $1275 for manual tranny. I dont think its cheaper than the TL. Where did you get your pricing? The car I just priced out is probably just like the one in the C&D issue except they had a manual and sport package. Either way their car was about $39k without nav.
  • wale_bate1wale_bate1 Member Posts: 1,982
    I wanted a RWD compact sport wagon and my sticking points were six cylinders, leather and handling. Even if I took out the handling and leather, at the time I had two choices, both ELLP. As of today, that's down to one, and not a very attractive one at that!

    If somebody could've delivered the essential elements in a non-ELLP marque, I would have taken it. The doo-daddery on the current crop do nothing to enhance the experience whatsoever, IMO.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    "I think we all know the TL has FAR more features than the Accord."

    Actually, here's what the TL has that the Accord V6 EX-L doesn't:

    +14 HP, bigger brakes, larger sway bars, and wider tires, DVD-Audio, Bluetooth interface, driver memory settings for seats and mirrors, bi-xenon headlights, and fog lights.

    The TL costs $6000 more than the Accord.
  • booyahcramerbooyahcramer Member Posts: 172
    Don't forget better brakes, better warranty, better acceleration, nicer wheels/tires, tilt-in-reverse heated mirrors, power passenger seat, rear windows that roll all the way down, free roadside assistance, better safety and insurance ratings, and of course killer looks.
  • goodegggoodegg Member Posts: 905
    Do you think that's ALL the differences between the cars?

    As the caveman says - do some research.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    CTS: I will evaluate if I could ever live with this car but seriously doubt I would ever buy it. I am talking the '08 in the late summer/fall. Too many Caddy gremlins in my past!!!

    I actually loved the shape of the G coupe but the prior sedan's lines elicit no appeal IMO. The '07, however have more appeal to me.

    I had fun with my FWD '97 GTP. I believe the more capable a given car is based on what extent it can defy Physics, the more the corners rise on both ends of your smile.

    Regards,
    OW
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Of course many will argue the extra money is worth it due to "driving feel" and "things you only notice if you're a BMW owner" and all that. Dont buy it.

    You don't believe a Honda has a certain feel? Mazda's lack a feel?

    Car companies have corporate philosophies and some design specific traits into their vehicles. A honda feels like a honda - be it a Fit or a TL there is something distinctly Honda in their cars.

    Ditto Mazda. Given the option, a Mazda tends to be my preference for all sub luxury cars.

    DNA is subjective but I think many beyond you would agree that Honda, Mazda, Porsche, VW/Audi have a distinctive feel.
  • ggesqggesq Member Posts: 701
    I have a TL and would love it more if it had the 4yr 50k maintenance free plan that BMW has.

    I guess you would have to add that into the equation. At the very (very) least, it would offset the $300 difference.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    If you're buying based on price, consider saving for 6 months and buying what you love. :P
  • 03accordman03accordman Member Posts: 671
    Im that case, are you willing to get these features at the cost difference, which at today's prices is more like 6-8k?

    How about a loaded Alitma, that will have most of these features, better yet, how about an Azera with will trump any of these cars - feature/bang for the buck wise?
  • ggesqggesq Member Posts: 701
    fed,

    your gonna have to add the premium package as well to get similarly equipped vehicles which brings the price difference higher.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    No offense to your caddy gremlins but unless your problems were with a RWD cadillac I wouldnt relate them to the CTS. The sigma models have nothing to do with Caddy models prior to 2002. Besides, I dont know how long you keep a car but the 5 year powertrain warranty should ease your mind to some degree. Caddy is no worse than the GErmans in the reliabiity dept.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Hell, just go Accord EX-L. Used. That'll run you less than 16k. :D

    Everybody is focused on the dollars but when it comes to subjective rationale, they act like they're being rational. "I got a 33k TL because it had bluetooth and leather, while the 36k A4 didn't. The A4 is overpriced because it lacks bluetooth!" Uh, but maybe someone wanted quattro?

    No, no, no. It's rational to pick the cheaper object because it has more, but it's irrational to pick the more expensive car that has a feature/ability you deem essential.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    Since I do 90% of my driving in urban areas and have little use for .88g skippad ratings and 50/50 weight distribution I would probably opt for a much cheaper, nicely optioned FWD car for under $30k. If I suddenly got a 20% raise I might recondider and get a new CTS. Since I've driven so many of these cars at various manufacturer events I have come to see them as regular cars and question their price tags. I like the cars, but not for nearly $40k. FOr those with the means to drive these cars it may be a different story but anything over $35k is a lot to pay for a car when you're in my income range. Not that many people with my income arent driving luxury cars because that couldnt be farther from the truth.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    "No, no, no. It's rational to pick the cheaper object because it has more, but it's irrational to pick the more expensive car that has a feature/ability you deem essential. "

    Dont see your point. What "essential" features are the cheaper cars in this class lacking? RWD isnt an essential feature for many car buyers. I'm talking luxury or technology features.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Dont see your point. What "essential" features are the cheaper cars in this class lacking? RWD isnt an essential feature for many car buyers. I'm talking luxury or technology features.

    Muhahahahah. You're proving my point. You've decided RWD is not a feature some of us can deem essential. You're saying it's all about features-per-dollar but fail to see many people place RWD or manual as a feature that's worth more dollars than bluetooth or leather.

    Thank you for proving my point.
  • 03accordman03accordman Member Posts: 671
    The important thing here is: Your preference and that's totally respected. Only you can decide for yourself if $35k is the threshold, not someone else.

    Similarly, you may not decide for someone else if its worth their while to buy something over 35k, or 25k or even less. Hell, today even a Sentra comes with a Bluetooth and a cracker of an audio system, if that's what one is looking for.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Ok. If you doubled your income, so money was no object, I would think this ELLPS segment would look different to you. So, it's the CTS, I assume.

    Regards,
    OW
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    I'd like to chime in on a general comment with AWD vs RWD. It's a personal decision, but RWD with all-seasons and snow don't really mix. You will want to get a dedicated set of rims and snows with RWD. If the idea of acquiring more rims and tires doesn't appeal to you then AWD would be they way to go.

    I prefer AWD with the associated compromises in handling.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    "A 328 with leather, HIDs, 8way seats with memory, Logic7 sound, auto and heated seats will run you $39,590 with automatic."

    Sorry, the BMW website didn't give me the option to add the "premium package." On Edmunds, a 328i with Premium Package (power leather seats with memory, reverse-tilt mirror, etc.), Logic7, HIDs, and heated seats has an MSRP of $38,745.

    Yes, about $4000 more than a base TL. But the BMW's HID's are swiveling and auto-leveling. The BMW's leather seats are all-leather, not "leather-trimmed." The BMW's heated seats are 3-stage instead of 2-staged. So, how much more do these features cost compared to the Acura "equivalent?"

    Also, How much does brake fade compensation and brake drying cost? What about Dynamic Cruise Control? These safety features are standard on the 328i.

    And what if you want headlight washers? Comfort Access? Active Steering? Sport Package? manual transmission? RWD? All-Wheel Drive?

    RWD performance notwithstanding, if I decide I want a sport sedan equipped with EXACTLY - 100% leatherette (instead of the TL's 75% leatherette), 6-speed MT, HID's, and Logic7, the 328i costs $35,100. Is that really a significantly poorer value than the $34,300 TL?

    I think not.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    Imagine one ice cream store that sells one flavor - chocolate cherry funky monkey mint chip ripple and it costs $1.90 a scoop.

    Imagine another ice cream store that sells 31 flavors - vanilla, chocolate, cherry, etc. cost $2.00, combination flavors cost $2.50, and toppings cost $.30 each.

    Which store will you visit?
  • laurasdadalaurasdada Member Posts: 4,726
    "What "essential" features are the cheaper cars in this class lacking?"

    Subjective, subjective, subjective... One man's "essential" is another man's folly... e.g. XM is not an essential to me, hence I did not renew the subscription. For other folks, they won't drive without it.

    As is "value," subjective. Folks keep saying that a BMW is not a good "value." However,if you want a BMW and you get it for the best price you believe to be possible, you've gotten a good value! Sure, a G or TL can, similarly equipped, cost less $, but if it is not the car you want, it is not a good value. Unless you yourself can reconcile the fact that you got your second choice and decide there is more "value" in this fact than acquiring the BMW.

    I drive a TL. Best car for me. Better than a CTS, 3, A4, C-class. For now, at least. Until I decide something is better. YMMV.

    '21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)

  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    If I like the way chocolate cherry funky monkey mint chip ripple tastes, then I'll visit that one.

    To me, TL is more like a vanilla/chocolate/strawberry type of ice cream, the kind of flavor that appeals to a broad range of people. Might not be everyone's cup of cake but to Acura, one sale to an enthusiast is just as good as a sale to a regular Joe.
  • quasiactuaryquasiactuary Member Posts: 50
    Terrible analogy. You can't compare buying decisions on $2 products that are used up within 15 minutes to buying decisions on $35K-$40K products that are kept for 3-10 years.
  • jiaminjiamin Member Posts: 556
    Very interesting to read various oppinions here.
    After my 96 Maxima was totalled in 2002, I decided to buy something a little nicer. Test drove TL one time, ES300 two times, I30 3 or 4 times. Very difficult to decide. I wanted to have ES which was the quietest, but everything else of it was a bit short.

    I don't know why but something trigged me and I ended up with an 02 QX4.

    However, I remember that when I had hard time deciding, anything could suddenly swing my decision. It could be just one car has real wood (ES) but the other does not (I30), or one car has cold air vent at back but not on the other...

    I like some performance(0-60, 1/4 mile...) but definately not my main factor. My car is basically for home-work-home.

    Yes, "value" is vague to me. If I really like one car, I will see value in it.
  • jiaminjiamin Member Posts: 556
    "For an average driver, FWD is better; for performance, RWD is better..." I heard it from my friend who used to drive sports cars.

    Is it? I need to learn...
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    It depends if you are interested in driving while you're driving or listening to the radio while your driving. FWD is easier to navigate in snow, RWD is more fun after you get used to it.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Totally agree.
  • bruceomegabruceomega Member Posts: 250
    kdshapiro,

    " ... I prefer AWD with the associated compromises in handling"

    For me and my own personal priorities, AWD is a requirement, not just a preference. About 4 years ago, when I bought my first ELLPS, and had AWD as a requirement, I only considered two choices, an Audi A4 quatro and a BMW 3 series Xi model. I did not like the interior of the G35x at all (new one is much nicer), I got the impression the Mercedes 4 matic C series was not very sporty, the small Jaguar AWD model had poor reviews, and I can't remember if there were any other choices.

    Today, there are more choices in AWD ELLPS cars, and the number of choices is growing, so that is a good thing from my perspective.

    I've had sporty cars in the past (Alfa Spyder, GTI, SHO), but was driving a 98 Accord V-6 coupe when I took a test drive in a previously owned 2001 BMW 330Xi. It took me all of about 2 microseconds to say wow, this is a completely different animal, and I bought it on the spot (have since traded it in on a 2006 330Xi).

    I would not have purchased a BWM if they only came in RWD, but I do understand the performance advantages of RWD (and owned many RWD cars earlier in my driving career). I have never driven a RWD BMW, but their handling must be something else as I am quite impressed with the handling of my 330Xi.

    Bruce
  • jiaminjiamin Member Posts: 556
    Thanks for the answer.
    I remember one time I was driving very slowly like a few MPH, on a ski site road covered with snow turning into ice. For fun I switched my QX4 from auto to 2WD (real). Right at that moment the car started slipping towards the curb. I quickly switched it back and the car went back without hitting the curb.
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,504
    Kudos.

    Two excellent posts in a row.

    Hang in there. They're tenacious.

    Some of us wish to pay only for what we want. If what we want is a RWD platform with a manual transmission & not much else (besides what comes with a car with those two things). . .
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    I agree with you. AWD is my thing also.

    Regards,
    OW
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