Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

circlew · March 2007

This is not likely. The S4 competes against the M3 and MercAMG. I read there could be a C-class AMG coming to the US soon.

Your question lends more credence to the 335 regarding the power boost in this class. It already has class-leading chassis. for mid-$40K, it is a bargain vs the S4.

IMO, it will be a big challenge for the other candidates to keep in step with the improvements of the 335 as "Leader of the Pack". Perhaps someone can advise pending improvements for the 3 series for 2008.

Regards,
OW

kdshapiro · March 2007

You know what, we've also talked about coupes here. Nonetheless I don't buy your argument. It's not BMWs fault the competition doesn't offer what the public looking for and BWM does.

blueguydotcom · March 2007

Where do you get that? The TT is a sub-3000 lbs coupe:

http://www.edmunds.com/audi/tt/2008/featuresandspecs.html#100852083

Really, what an odd thing for you to say. And for my money, only the Cayman is sexier but it's also 15k+ more expensive.

Didn't mention the convertible as the S2000, TT convertible, Boxster are anything but stunning looking. They're all pretty darn ugly in my opinion.

blueguydotcom · March 2007

Actually the RS4 competes against the M3. The S4 is sorta in no man's land.

thechoson · March 2007

The first car in this segment I got to drive for an extended time was the 06 325i, which I rented last year for a weekend trip down to San Diego from LA.

My everyday drivers had been a Maxima and Civic, so this BMW blew me away. I can't really describe it, other than saying I felt like I was in total control of the car the entire time. Usually I am discouraged from speeding not just by the speed limits, but by the capability of the car. Cars seem to hit a speed where it just feels extremely dangerous and a bit out of control.

I was doing 100-110 mph at certain areas with the BMW, and I never felt out of control at all. I felt in total control at 35 or 100 mph.

The acceleration was also amazing, for a 215 hp engine. It felt much faster, and the thing that I was taken by was the it gave me the right acceleration at every point. What I mean by this is I've driven cars faster linearlly (a 3.5 Altima for example), but some of those cars just seem like a cannon ball, fast but a bit out of control. The 325i seemed fast in a useful sense, giving me the right acceleration at every point.

Also, I was doing this thing where no matter how fast I was going, I could keep myself focused on the edge of the lane divider, and along curves, just hit that lane divider perfectly where I felt like, almost like controlling a video game car or something. It just felt so in control.

Now, having said that, here is my question. Is all this I'm describing a BMW thing, or is it more of an ELLPS thing? Will I get this type of drive in cars like the G35 or TL, or is this type of drive what makes BMW BMW?

bruceomega · March 2007

hauss,

" ... 3 is too small for above average size driver ... "

I'm 6', with long legs for my height, 230 pounds, and I do not find the 3 series too small in the driving position. Once I get into the car, a 2006 3 series, I find its quite roomy.

I do not find myself wishing for a larger car for front seat room, but I would want a car with more rear seat room if I were carrying extra passengers on a regular basis.

Bruce

blueguydotcom · March 2007

BMW thing. G35 almost there. That's it for this segment.

It's exactly what makes a BMW feel like a BMW. Even at 150 the car's rock solid.

ggesq · March 2007

"To me, now that the 335 upped the power output, it is #1."

I don't get it. So prior to the e92, it was not #1? What was your pecking order before the 335i was introduced?

Is your only criteria pure hp and torque?

1487 · March 2007

Just because I dont put the 3 on an unreachable pedastal doesnt mean I believe the CTS is perfect. The current model is far from perfect. The new one could be pretty close though. We shall see in a few months.

blueguydotcom · March 2007

Maybe he rated several elements of the cars and when it was all said and done the 330i came up short on power. That shortness of power, matched to a possibly higher price pushed him to consider the G35 as a better choice. Now that the power is comparable the cars may not line up evenly.

On another board I listed about 10-12 categories and rated the 3 cars in that segment. The one with the lowest score was the winner in my eyes.

Ergonomics
Ride
Handling
Power
Transmission
Projected Reliability
Projected Resale
Cost
Features
Tunability
Interior Materials
Trunk Space
Maintenance Costs
Gas Mileage
Interior Space

Obviously you can also make one of two categories your "trump" category. If the car has a 1 for this specific category it's equivalent to a -1 (ie, it's weighted more heavily).

I'm not saying this is for everyone but I can see how someone might rate the power low on the 06 330i and in the end see the G35 or IS350 winning, while the 335i now trumps all comers in power so his focus may have shifted.

1487 · March 2007

so in summation the 3 series is flawless and every other car in the class is seriously compromised and totally unworthy of consideration. Got it.

"3 v. CTS. CTS is a joke, next. "

According to whom? It would be nice to provide some context for a statement like that. While personal opinions are everyone's right we would like to know the basis for calling any vehicle a "joke". Once it has been stated that one is totally biased in favor of one particular vehicle without regards to facts about performance, price, handling, styling, quality, etc. it becomes hard to take that person's evaluations of other cars seriously. Why bother to comment on cars other than the 3 if one has no interest in acknowledging the merits of those cars? I dont like the camry but there arent any legit reasons I could tell someone to stay away from the car. Its a great car for getting from A to be in comfort but it's not for me. I cant with a straight face say its a joke or insult those who chose to drive it.

1487 · March 2007

I wouldnt go so far as to say I am frustrated at all. I'm not surprised by the reaction here at all, I'm just surprised that so many have been consumed by the BMW marketing machine. The 3 is a very popular car and those kinds of cars generally do have a strong following. its the same thing with any upbiquitous model like the Accord, Camry, RX, etc. Fans of top sellers often believe that sales are the ultimate proof of a car's excellence when it's convenient. You wont hear any import fans saying the Impala is a great car because it sold nearly 300k units last year, but they will be quick to use sales as a way to prove excellence when talking Camry, Accord or Altima. If we are to go by the "most sales equals best car" than the 3 is undoubtedly king.

I dont know that I have "attacked" the 3 at all, in fact that is kind of funny. The 3 series doesnt have many flaws to talk about but the problem is that it's excellence does not make it's competitors nulll and void. Point is most of the cars being discussed here are excellent and some people seem incapable of accepting that. The 3 may be great but its competition is very good. Some here have contended that not only is the 3 best in class, but its peers are totally unacceptable for the savvy sports sedan shopper. I dont buy that for a second. The people at GM, Audi, Infiniti, Lexus, etc. are not stupid and they know what it takes to make a sporty sedan, even if BMW has been at it longer. I suppose it is blasphemous around here to suggest we are close to parity in this segment but someone had to make the statement. If we want to go back to the status quo BMW praise fest I'll give up and join the chorus.

blueguydotcom · March 2007

If I did the 15 categories I stated above, the CTS ends up dead last.

335i = 32
G35 = 45
A4 = 49
TL = 50
IS350 = 60
CTS = 82

I didn't include styling in my criteria as that holds zero sway over my decision. I didn't give any bonus points either. Straight up, my rankings are just my opinion on every element.

fedlawman · March 2007

"so in summation the 3 series is flawless and every other car in the class is seriously compromised and totally unworthy of consideration. Got it"

And you wonder why you get such strong responses here? Why do you have to be like that?

NOBODY here has ever said the 3-series is flawless. The only thing I've seen repeatedly is the opinion that it is the best "performance sedan" in this class, with the G35 coming in a close 2nd place.

We've said repeatedly that if "ultimate performance" isn't your priority, then the G35 or TL is probably a better choice.

My problem with your statements has been (and continues to be) that you refuse to admit that the BMW's performance advantage, however great or slight you think it is, doesn't count for a hill of beans. We're talking in a "performance car" forum, and the best performing car on the list isn't worth consideration because only badge snobs and poseurs drive them? And you know this because you've looked at people driving BMW's and you can just tell they're not enthusiasts.

A number of us here are passionate about performance, and if we didn't need a back seat and trunk on a regular basis, we'd probably be driving a Cayman or Z4 Coupe - I know I would. For many of the people shopping for an ELLPS, they are looking for a car that is the CLOSEST THING to a sports car that has four doors and some luxury thrown in.

These are the people that don't want the FWD handling of the TL or the hanging revs/awkward clutch engagement of the G35. I had high hopes when all the buzz first came out about the Lexus IS350. I imagined a sport sedan with the reflexes of a 3-series with the reliability of a Lexus. Well guess what? Lexus pulled the trigger but they missed the bullseye. Same for Infiniti - it's close, but dynamically, it's still a notch below the BMW.

If infiniti or Lexus would build a better BMW, I'd buy one. Until then, BMW is still the only game in town for an enthusiast.

blueguydotcom · March 2007

Point is most of the cars being discussed here are excellent and some people seem incapable of accepting that.

I'd say you're pretty liberal with the term excellent then. I would at best on a scale of 1 to 10 rate a 335i with ZSP and 6 speed a 7. More likely a 6 with RFTs. But I'm a very hard marker and the BMW 335i has several deficiencies I can't overlook: weight, size, interior size, RFTs, mileage, power, transmission, body roll, reliability, cost, resale.

The 3 may be great but its competition is very good. Some here have contended that not only is the 3 best in class, but its peers are totally unacceptable for the savvy sports sedan shopper.

I'd rank most of them 4s and 5s.

I suppose it is blasphemous around here to suggest we are close to parity in this segment but someone had to make the statement. If we want to go back to the status quo BMW praise fest I'll give up and join the chorus.

I don't see parity. But then again ask me about 5 restaurants and I can rattle off exactly what I like and don't like at each one. I see clear lines pretty instantly when it comes to critiquing anything involving my money, my stomach or my time.

blueguydotcom · March 2007

If infiniti or Lexus would build a better BMW, I'd buy one. Until then, BMW is still the only game in town for an enthusiast.

Amen. I recall being crestfallen when I first read the IS350 would come only with an automatic. Of course, then I drove it, saw Lexus' pricing and their inane "ordering" scheme. G35 is still the second best choice but I sure wish Infinit would make it a tougher choice.

fedlawman · March 2007

The internet is starting to buzz about the April issue of Car and Driver Magazine's shootout between the G35 and 328i.

According to C&D:

"The G35 scores points for comfort, capable moves, and thrust in surplus, but BMW still builds the best tools for driving."

About the G35 - "...ubiquitious VQ series 3.5-liter V-6...generates stocky midrange torque and, when kept below 4500 rpm keeps the many [Nissan and Infiniti users of the engine] scooting with authority...[but] things go less tickety-boot at high rpms, with vibrations up the shifter and through the floor betraying the rapid percussions of big-bore pistons."

In summary, CD said, the G35 Sport has "all the ingredients except refinement."

About the 328i - "BMWs 3.0-liter silk-weaver...simply cant be detected through the stick, steering wheel, or pedals...the steering operates with light effort but delivers copious road data...longer drag-strip times [but] who cares when rips to redline are such exquisite pleasure?"

Bottom line, said Car and Driver, the 3 Series is "worth the extra expense over the Infiniti."

nyccarguy · March 2007

You've definitely got it all wrong when it comes to the 3 series fans (myself included) being blinded by the Ultimate Marketing Machine (BMW). We're very open to new things (with the exception of the CTS, I don't care how good it is GM suckered me into giving me their money once...NEVER AGAIN). We were excited when the new IS350 was on its way with 306 hp and RWD (personally I think the 1st gen IS300 is a better driving car). We all wanted to like the 1st Generation G35 and we wanted to like the 2nd generation G as well. The cars just fall short of some people's high expectations.

Many BMW fans and owners have openly criticized the E90 3 series for being overweight, too big, not as driver oriented, and even more disconnected than the previous body style. But we just like to drive home the point that even though it isn't as good as the good old days, we still like it the best in today's ELLPS segment.

louiswei · March 2007

I am sorry...

But wanting every other ELLPS, that's including IS350, G35, CTS and TL to be like the 3-series does not qualify as "open minded" to me. Me personally I think what makes today's ELLPS market so interesting is because every car has its owner personality instead of being another 3er with a different badge.

nyccarguy · March 2007

That is one way to think of it. But you have got to be kidding yourself if you think that the likes of Lexus, Infiniti, Cadillac, and Audi didn't build their respective cars for the sole purpose of competing (sales and performance) with the 3 series.

louiswei · March 2007

Yes and no. They are trying to compete with the 3-series in the ELLPS market but they are not trying to "make another 3-series". I don't know about Infiniti but that's definitely not the case for Acura, Audi, Cadillac and Lexus.

brightness04 · March 2007

Different companies slice and dice the market a little differently. For example, BMW markets 335i Sport Package to the ELLPS segment with more sporty inclinations, and 328i Premium Package to the ELLPS segment with more luxury inclinations; MB is dividing C into C350 Sport vs. C280 Luxury; Lexus approaches the market with IS and ES (I know what the detractors would say, but with 270+ hp, performance certainly is a design factor even if handling is far from the top priority). We really don't want to bring in too much of their platform mates that are not sedans in here, lest we end up talking about a myriad vehicles with very different characterisitcs.

brightness04 · March 2007

It used to be a sport coupe thing (Triumph, 911, Celica/Supra, 240SX/300ZX, Mitsu 3000, Integra, Miata etc.) BMW accomplished a remarkable thing in the 70's and 80's by making a four door sedan to do that, and the market place rewarded it handsomely. Nowadays quite a few competitors are catching on to this; e.g. G35, TL, IS, etc.. The difference between the current G35, TL and IS vs. 3 series in that regard is probably less than the difference between difference between various generations of 3 series. Among BMW's, the biggest jump was made from E30 to E36, when the rear suspension was radically modified to make rear tracking better. Most mfrs in this segment use multi-link rear suspensions nowadays.

jmess · March 2007

The 3 has a big flaw, no limited slip differential. It should be a standard part of the sport package as it is in the G and IS.

brightness04 · March 2007

Well, the difference in handling among the most sporty models from the different manufacturers are getting smaller nowadays . . . getting to a point where the difference between different manufacturers is smaller than the diffrence between different model variants from the same manufacturer or the difference between different generations of vehicles from the same manufacturer. That makes the real life cost in a rapid replacement fleet schedule all the more relevant. The slightly older cars are becoming really non-competitive; just look at the comment people throw at TL, A4 and CTS nowadays. They are about 3-4 years out of date.

brightness04 · March 2007

We've said repeatedly that if "ultimate performance" isn't your priority, then the G35 or TL is probably a better choice.

Not if cost is a consideration; 3 series is less expensive over 2yrs, 3yrs and 6yrs.

Also, if one wants Euro chic bling, 3 series is hard to beat. Although not much of a factor for me nowadays, I'm sure it's high on many 3 series customers' mind. 3 series are very common in congested cities like NYC and Boston . . . not exactly places for passionate sporty driving. Nor is the standard equipment RFT nowadays. Some critics use towing hitch as a litmus test on whether the driver really needs an SUV; IMHO, RFT is a much more valid litmus test on whether the driver really is passionate about sporty driving, as in proof negative.

brightness04 · March 2007

hmm, I thought undetectable engine vibration and light steering were faults in sporty cars . . . when someone else (we know who) was doing it.

plekto · March 2007

1: The CTS is marketed as a 5 series competitor according to Cadillac. So putting it against a 3 is as fair as, say, putting a 3 up aginst an Elise. Afterall, two different companies' entry-level models, right? Roughly the same price, right?
(sic for the impared)

2:The best sports sedan for the dollar, though, is the RX-8. Luxury it isn't though. But it is without a doubt the most fun you can have for $25K out the door. To get a better ride, you need to spend $35K for a base 3 series. Yes, it has 4 doors - that two open backwards and it is styled to look like a coupe doesn't fool me. I count 4 hinges and 4 door handles.

But zero luxury. If they made a luxury version with a supercharger for $35K... Whole other story(300hp, RWD, 3000lbs, loads of luxury.. definite competitor potential).

P.S. There is an aftermarket supercharger for it(turbo won't work at all with it due to its design, which isn't liek the older RX-7) that does boost it to 300HP or so. Would be so nice to get it with that from the factory, though.

fedlawman · March 2007

I can see the 3-series being less expensive than a car with lesser resale (or residual factor) like a Hyundai, Audi, or Cadillac. However, the Acura's (TL and TSX) have similar, if not slightly superior resale and resual values.

Although not necessarily "Euro chic," the Acura's are likely to be more reliable over the long term too.

ggesq · March 2007

"The slightly older cars are becoming really non-competitive; just look at the comment people throw at TL, A4 and CTS nowadays. They are about 3-4 years out of date."

And for some reason, the TL is still one of the best selling vehicles in this segment.

Keep in mind, for MY 2006, the IS 250/350 and the e90 was introduced. Wasn't that long ago. BMW recognized the need for more hp and torque and within a year of the intro of the 330i, the 335i comes out. The new G was just introduced a few months ago. Soon, a new CTS, A4 and TL will be out (2008). I would hardly call those cars 3-4 years out of date.

habitat1 · March 2007

Where do you get that? The TT is a sub-3000 lbs coupe:

Really, what an odd thing for you to say. And for my money, only the Cayman is sexier but it's also 15k+ more expensive.

Odd? The link you provided is for a FRONT WHEEL DRIVE, 4-CYLINDER Coupe version of the TT. And it still weighs 100 lbs more than the Cayman, in spite of having nothing in common with a real sports car. The Cayman only costs $15k more? You could give me a FWD 2.0 TT and I wouldn't pay to insure it. Scroll down on your link - the 3.2 Quatro coupe version weighs in at 3,262 lbs, 400 lbs more than the Cayman, 300 lbs more than the Cayman S. And the convertible weighs in at a mere 500+ lbs more than the Boxster.

Didn't mention the convertible as the S2000, TT convertible, Boxster are anything but stunning looking. They're all pretty darn ugly in my opinion.

Yeah, that TT Coupe is a real head turner. Did they include the Audi version of the New Beetle's dash mounted vase in the redesign? Or did they just parts share that one directly?

(From another post) I'd say you're pretty liberal with the term excellent then. I would at best on a scale of 1 to 10 rate a 335i with ZSP and 6 speed a 7. More likely a 6 with RFTs. But I'm a very hard marker and the BMW 335i has several deficiencies I can't overlook: weight, size, interior size, RFTs, mileage, power, transmission, body roll, reliability, cost, resale.

Hard marker - ha! I'd say you're exceedingly liberal with the term "stunning". Based upon your criteria - similar to mine- I would rate the a grossly overpriced, fugly FWD 4-banger 3,000 lb coupe about a 2. But deduct 1 for false advertising as a sports car.

Just so my previous point wasn't lost: Audi is the LAST manufacturer that deserves any credit for "weight saving measures". The TT is still a COW. And, IMO, the A4 will not get any closer to being a serious ELLPS by trimming a couple pounds when it needs to lose several hundred.

circlew · March 2007

So prior to the e92, it was not #1? What was your pecking order before the 335i was introduced?

My point was that until now, there were some that perceived the past 3 series were/are underpowered. That HP "perception" is now ultimately eliminated from any argument in the E92. *MY* pecking order was the same regardless.

I can not comment pre-2006 (E90) since I do not have first hand experience but for me, it was #1 when I made my decision. In other words, 255 HP vs. 280 HP in the G for '06 did not do it for me considering all of the other factors considered.

Regards,
OW

kdshapiro · March 2007

Yes and no, the a 3 series model does include LSD.

kdshapiro · March 2007

"not exactly places for passionate sporty driving"

Wow talk about not being able to see the forest from the trees. Are you suggesting that everyone that drives in Manhattan traffic has to drive an Accent?

circlew · March 2007

How 'bout a "Smart" car? You can use Oreo Cookies for tires on that one.

Regards,
OW

quasiactuary · March 2007

There is a good reason why they are called "Smart" cars and not "Fun" cars

brightness04 · March 2007

Are you suggesting that everyone that drives in Manhattan traffic has to drive an Accent?

Not at all. Unlike some over-bearing nanny-wannabes, I don't think anyone should be told how to spend their own hard earned money, least of all by the government.

kdshapiro · March 2007

Then I don't get your point. You made a thinly veiled dig about people who drive BMWs in heavy traffic.

blueguydotcom · March 2007

Odd? The link you provided is for a FRONT WHEEL DRIVE, 4-CYLINDER Coupe version of the TT. And it still weighs 100 lbs more than the Cayman, in spite of having nothing in common with a real sports car. The Cayman only costs $15k more? You could give me a FWD 2.0 TT and I wouldn't pay to insure it.

to each his own. I have less interest in the weight, complexity and poor implementation of an AWD system, so i wouldn't go near Audi's mediocre-to-lousy quattro.

Hard marker - ha! I'd say you're exceedingly liberal with the term "stunning". Based upon your criteria - similar to mine- I would rate the a grossly overpriced, fugly FWD 4-banger 3,000 lb coupe about a 2. But deduct 1 for false advertising as a sports car.

Subjective, totally. I think the 08 TT is a brilliant design; nothing in the ELLPS is even remotely attractive on a purely aesthetic level. I can't comment on performance as I haven't driven one. My ranking of a 335i is based on the all around car. As an overall car in the world it's a 6, borderline 7 (remove the RFTs to get that high).

the A4 will not get any closer to being a serious ELLPS by trimming a couple pounds when it needs to lose several hundred.

For my money, even an acient A4 is quite a bit beyond cars like the IS350 and CTS. I'd take an A4 frontrak 2.0T for 30k before I'd pick up an IS350 for the same price. Heck, the IS could be cheaper and it still wouldn't register as a choice.

brightness04 · March 2007

I agree with you that TL and TSX have similar, if not slightly superior real life resale. However, lease residuals offered by manufacturers are not determined by real life resale but by the manufacturers' eagerness to ush new cars and bend accounting books. Right now, for the month of March 2007, the 24/24 residual on 3 series sedan is 73%, that of the TL is only 68%, and TL Type-S is only 66%. The 5-7% difference there is huge because if you can get the car for 90% MSRP, the 3 series lease would only amortize 17% of MSRP over two years, whereas the TL would be amortizing 22%-24% of MSRP. TL MSRP would have to be 33% lower to make the amortization amount equal; fat chance of that :-)

Like I said, the phenomenom of BMWFS giving out free fake money in the form of lease residual, fake but good for car payments on BMW's, is changing the cost equation dramaticly.

brightness04 · March 2007

It's a simple statement that people can buy BMW's for all sorts reasons other than being involved in sporty driving.

brightness04 · March 2007

Okay, you got me there. I meant tot say that they are _only_ 3-4 years out of date. The rationale being that TL is on a 4-yr model cycle, and the new one is coming out next year. By your reckoning, they are only perhaps a couple years being surpassed by new competition. I may even be inclined to agree with you on that. It furthers my argument that this segment is evolving really fast, and the previous generation products from each and everyone of the manufacturers (including BMW) can not hold candle to the latest competition. That's why I suggested that if we want cost to be partof the analysis at all, it has to be based on cost associated with rapid fleet update . . . because after 3-4 (or even 2 years), we are no longer talking about a competitive ELLPS vis. the new competition.

hauss · March 2007

That's fine for discussion of vehicles in general but since this is a sedan discussion the fact that BMW make coupes and convertibles is irrelevant to how their 3 series sedan compares to its competition. So, my argument is not about their product line in general but about their sedan and this forum.

fedlawman · March 2007

Of course, if you want to have a new car every 2 or 3 years, and don't mind always having a car payment, then BMW does make the money cheap.

But that's the only scenario where it pays off.

Paying $10,000 every 2 years for the benefit of having a brand new car every 2 years isn't cheap. At the end of 6 years, you've paid out $30,000 and own nothing.

I know it's apples and oranges (leasing is a great solution for many people - business owners especially), but personally, I'd rather pay cash and own the car outright. I'll keep the car as long as I want, and then pass it on to my kids if it's a good one (like my V70).

blueguydotcom · March 2007

hat's why I suggested that if we want cost to be partof the analysis at all, it has to be based on cost associated with rapid fleet update . . . because after 3-4 (or even 2 years), we are no longer talking about a competitive ELLPS vis. the new competition.

I wouldn't agree with that at all. The ELLPS is bloating and numbing at an alarming pace. Evolution usually implies improvement in the function of a species. ELLPS today v. an e46 (1998 chassis) - no contest, the e46. The only things my e46 ZHP sedan really lacked were power, weight reduction and an LSD - the M3's engine and LSD would have solved two of those.

To each his own.

brightness04 · March 2007

Well, E36 fans said the same thing about E46, and in turn were ridiculed by E30 fans who liked the jumpy rear end. Actually, E46 started the trend of bloat, by borrowing suspension geometry from E40 5 series, in order to get a smooth ride than smothers out pot holes.

When Lexus tried to listen to the "real enthusiasts" and put forth the IS300, which was more in common to E30 than E46 was in terms of driving dynamics and riding quality, the market place gave it a big thumb-down. That pretty much proved that not only people don't always buy BMW's for performance; the "real enthusiasts" are not even in the driver's seat in terms of new car sales.

blueguydotcom · March 2007

Fed, pay out 30k over 6 years on any of the ELLPS cars and you still don't own anything. It'll take another 10-15k to pay off one of those. So after 40k and 8 years you might own an ELLPS and it'll be worth about 6-7k. Just keeping 40k in the bank would work out better (about 59k).

blueguydotcom · March 2007

I'd say the original IS failed more on the poor power, origins, bad gas mileage, boy racer exterior/interior. It was hard to get past the boy-racer feel of the car and the fact Lexus wanted 30k+ for a rebadged Toyota with little power and 18 mpg.

hauss · March 2007

Hey, to each their own, right? I'm 6' 1" and also have long legs for my height. I weigh less than you at 200 lbs but mostly found myself struggling for shoulder and arm room. I just felt crowded as I do in a lot of compact size cars in this group. We all have our own requirements.

brightness04 · March 2007

Exactly! You took the words right out of my mouth. When a lease deal is amortizing only 17% of MSRP over 24 months, it means the buyer would have to keep the car some 11 years to make depreciation outlay comparable. That's not even counting any repair and maintenance cost (which are none for the first 24mo, but sizable if not huge for BMW's over 5 years old). Then there's the subsidized lease money factor that is lower than interest that one can collect at a bank.

Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

Comments

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles