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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • hausshauss Member Posts: 169
    I forgot about Erie, PA - my bad. The rest of the state as you can see from this government website doesn't get nearly as much. Not sure how Channel 24 tracks their data or how far back they've been tracking.

    http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/online/ccd/snowfall.html
  • bruceomegabruceomega Member Posts: 250
    wale_bate1,

    I think you answered the so what. It all depends on what your requirements and priorities are.

    In my own case, if the car is primarily for 1 or 2 people, and only an occasional back seat rider or 2, then the 3 series is more than adequate for me.

    But if I want to carry 1 or 2 passengers in the back seat on a regular basis, or for long distances, then the 3 series is not a good choice, for me.

    We have another car that fits passengers in the back seat more comfortably than the 3 series sedan, an X3. I find it quite roomy, especially considering its only 1.6 inches longer. But that doesn't rule out my interest in one day having a sedan with more back seat room so we don't always have to take the X3 when we have 3 or 4 in the car.

    I'm surprised you consider the IS oversized.

    Thanks
    Bruce
  • bruceomegabruceomega Member Posts: 250
    hauss,

    I was saying the back seat of the GS-350 was about as tight as a 3 series. In fairness, it was not as tight as the 3 series.

    I cannot get into the back seat of my 3 series with the seat in my driving position. In the GS-350, I could get into the back seat, but it took a lot of work and I felt really snug once there. The biggest problem for me was trying to get back out - that took a lot of work. This was in contrast to the roomier back seats for other cars in that category, such as the M35/M45.

    Thanks
    Bruce
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Seriously, are we talking a quick drive of about 150 miles (less than two hours), 300 miles (3-4 hours)?

    My feeling is that if it has a back seat it's good for any normal adult for 30-45 minutes. They may not like it but suck it up.

    The 335i weighs 3600 lbs. For comparison an e46 330i was less than 3300 lbs. That's a big, big jump and no amount of HP will offset the physical bulk now added to the vehicle.

    They didn't add 300+ lbs of safety to the new 3 series. They simply fattened the calf with an assortment of worthless add-ons (sound deadening being one of them).
  • hausshauss Member Posts: 169
    bgdc, I don't think you'd want to spend even 5 minutes in the back seat of louiswei's IS350 with him driving it in his normal driving position. We'd have a hard time stuffing you in there (I think you'd just have to lay down on the seat in the fetal position). But maybe he'd be nice enough to sacrifice some leg room for himself and slide the seat forward. :)
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    Hauss, the TSX is a great car, but you cannot use racing as a benchmark. I was a TSX owner when the TSX hit the Speed World Challenge, and I really enjoyed watching the Acura mix it up with the BMW 3-series.

    During the TSX's first year, it gave the BMW a very good run for the money, but Bill Auberlein and the E46 325i dominated the series. In an effort to even the field, the following year SCCA handicapped the 3-series with more ballast and throttle body restrictor plates - it worked. The BMW dropped down to a mid-field runner and Auberlein et al left the series, only competing in a handful of races (which they still managed to finish on the podium).

    The TSX is a terrific sedan with great potential for performance (and lots of aftermarket speed parts available). On the street, it's a worthy competitor to the E46 325i (and a luxury/performance bargain). On the track, it's FWD layout and forward biased weight distribution puts a damper on the fun.

    I started doing HPDE's back in 2003 and to my mind, rather than tweak the TSX and try to turn it into a more balanced sport sedan with better tires, thicker rear sway bar, more HP, etc, I decided I'd much rather start from scratch and get a proper RWD sport sedan - which is why I sold my TSX and bought a BMW 2 years ago.

    On paint chips - try this kit. http://www.touchup123.com/default.aspx? I bought the basic kit for my M3 a few months ago, and with great care and patience, I repaired numerous chips to the point that I won't get the car re-sprayed like I originally planned. Here's a before and after shot of my front bumper (the white chips in the after photo are new chips I've acquired since doing the repair (the Pacific NW is very hard on car finishes!).

    image

    image

    You can still see the repairs if you get in close and look, but they don't jump out and grab you like they used too.
  • kominskykominsky Member Posts: 850
    If I remember correctly, it was worse than simply adding ballast, they were making him add it to the front of the car only... not allowing him to keep the 50/50 weight distribution.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    Yes, you're right - but it wasn't just Auberlein. All of the E46s had to comply.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Just saw these. I LIKE it!...enjoy!

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    Regards,
    OW
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    BTW,the claim is that the V8 is lighter than the previous engine. Fed, BGDC, Ship, et al, let us know how the performance should pan out with this new force du jour.

    "The engine is the lightest V8 in the world, weighing less than the previous M3's inline-six."

    Regards,
    OW
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Hmmm, an aluminum blocked and headed V8 being lighter than an iron blocked I6? Maybe I'm whacked, but I'm not all that impressed. That it's the lightest V8 in the world is far more impressive from my perspective. ;-)

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    I read 3483 lbs unladen weight for the E92 M3. That's about halfway between a 328i and 335i. Very close to the much less powerful E46 M3.

    Let's hope the stock suspension is dialed in better than the E46 was out of the box.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Wow, I didn't realize how incredibly portly these little cars are compared to mine. I have two Accords, a 1996 and a 2006, both are 4-cylinder models. The old one weighs less than 2900 lbs, while the new one weighs less than 3200. The compact, sporty BMW weighs 3,500-3,600 lbs! Amazing to me!

    I know guys, this isn't typically my forum, but I troll around occasionally, and just had to comment.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,188
    That is a good observation.. Excess weight is the enemy of good handling...

    I'd rather that BMW concentrate on weight reduction, rather than increased horsepower...

    Unfortunately, it seems much easier (cheaper?) to increase horsepower, than to reduce weight.

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  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Well how bout the new Luxury car in the segment the Hyundai Genesis coming out next year ?

    Any comments from this crowd ? :blush:

    Rocky
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    I can see it - they will just do the 80s GM version of luxury by adding things until the frame is straining to stay straight.

    I want a light and fast car. It's silly how a new 3 series is heavier than a 96-02 Mercedes E-Class. It's only 100lbs lighter than this:

    http://consumerguideauto.howstuffworks.com/1991-to-1996-buick-park-avenue-4.htm

    Something's just wrong if the smallest cars are now almost as heavy as a ten year old Park Avenue.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    LOL, you do have a point. It's all the electronic nannies and safety equiment we are demanded to have. ;)

    Rocky
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    OK, good point. However, the overweight car I drive can out maneuver every CURRENT US sled in this weight class. Bar NONE.

    Regards,
    OW
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    OW, what do you drive again ? A Bimmer ?

    Rocky
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    330xi. Best performing car I've had yet (even with the DGC weights designed in!).

    1966 Pontiac Lemans, 1968 Dodge Dart GT, 1969 Buick Skylark, 1976 Pontiac Grand Prix, 1988 Lincoln M7 LSC, 1997 Pontiac GP GTP, 2003 Lincoln LS

    I am ALL-Americaned OUT!

    Regards,
    OW
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,498
    may have quite a bit to do with this, along with any number of other nanny-state items. The old cars were light and were designed with the assumption that the driver would strap himself in & avoid all that he could. It's a YOYO (you're on your own) thing.

    Otherwise, you die, and there's no one to sue.

    That approach has been shown to be way, way out of date.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    ...and also due to the SUV-ramming factor for survival.

    The 330 does quite well despite the added weight, IMO. I' read the same about the E92 also. I am sure this would improve with -200 lbs. but it is what it is.

    I was in shock to see a Semi driver on the cell phone the other day negotiating a wide right turn onto the freeway with 16 wheels following his un-funfocused direction and thought about defensive driving can only get you so far...

    Regards,
    OW
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Well don't be surprised if a few Genesis, drivers next year around this time are giving you a thumbs up signaling they want to race you around a sweeper. ;)

    Rocky
  • jimbresjimbres Member Posts: 2,025
    Why are we discussing a car that's at least a year away from production?

    That's a waste of bandwidth. Let's confine the discussion to cars that are in showrooms today.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    All variations of the first 7-series (E23) which were made between 1977-86 weighed ~3250-3600 lbs. That's less than today's 335 sedan, and it is all I need to remind me of how radically things have changed.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Okay, fair enough. However I remember about 6-months before the 335i came out all kinds of bandwidth was being wasted on that model. ;)

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Well it boils down to having all these electronics being added over time which adds weight not to mention peoples expectations of having quieter interiors has added weight. I'll take todays weight, performance, reliability, over the past cars anyday. ;)

    Rocky
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Bring it on, are you kidding me? :D

    Regards,
    OW
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    I'll take todays weight, performance, reliability, over the past cars anyday.

    Not me, not with certain performance cars. I'm looking at older Porsches. There's too much sinew and gut left in them. I do like the 335 coupe and convertible though.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Well, if the E23 handled like the 335i and infused as much acceleration, then the weight today is a waste. If not, this debate about weight could be half baked.

    Regards,
    OW
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    I don't just consider acceleration. As a matter of fact, my priority is handling over power by a wide margin. The E23 was a good handling, low slung car and roomy to boot. I understand the price we are paying for safety and luxury, but something is lost on these newer cars and we don't have much choice in the matter.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Yeah, I'd be willing to bring it on and embarrass the 330xi :blush:

    Rocky
  • jimbresjimbres Member Posts: 2,025
    Well, I've been hanging out on these boards for almost 9 years, & I've noticed that the quickest way to transform an interesting discussion into a brawl is to bring up a car that is months or years away from production. People get into arguments that can't be settled because they're about non-existent cars. You might as well fight over the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin.

    The 335i? The latest generation (E90) BMW is an attractive machine, but I don't lust over it the way I did over the E46. My 2001 330i (sport package, stick) is at least as much fun today as it was 6 years ago. I won't replace it anytime soon.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Ok, but to be fair, if the Lord said: "Designman your fate in life is to be in on car accident at 60mph, it will either be a head-on collision or t-bone and you can chose between the E23 and 335". What would be your choice of vehicles?
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    My feeling is that each aspect must develop and change so the experience we seek actually expands from previous iterations. My priority would be balance in all of the essential areas of performance. Creature features and added room are lowest on the pecking order.

    Regards,
    OW
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    are irrelevant because it will be neither "entry level" nor "luxury". Performance maybe.

    The right place to discuss the Genesis is the Mainstream Large Sedan Comparison board alongside with the Charger, 300, Avalon, etc...
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    At 60 mph in both situations you're toast in either car. Your point is about safety in which case a bigger, modern car is the best bet.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    I disagree. I would rather take my chances in a high speed collision in the 335 than the older E35. It is a crap shoot, but I think if you can repeat the test a few million times as a simulation, modern engineering will prove to trump 15+ year old engineering.
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,373
    at the Javitz Center today. Of all the ELLPS sedans I saw, the only one I really wish I could have driven off the floor was a CPO 330i ZHP (Just not with that Sand Interior...YUCK!)

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    I agree the safety innovations we have today are a huge improvement considering the added weight in this group of vehicles. I am sure the additional weight of the safty gear is a fraction vs. the size increase more customers desire. BMW for one is reacting to that.

    If we consider the performance data, these cars are by far more advanced in every way than the bretheren of old.

    They just are a little more portly, may I say!

    IMO, I really thinks it's a matter of perspective. Coming out of the US boats all my life, this E90 feels like a butterfly! Does anyone really think a 335 would perform worse than the premium E46 given the extra weight in the twisties?

    Regards,
    OW
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    I have no problem acknowledging modern-day improvements in safety. The point is that sport has been compromised because of weight, and we have little choice in the matter other than choosing from a range of vehicle types. Plenty of people buy cars and don't list safety as top priority. Anyone who buys a motorcycle, sports car or cars in this thread falls into this category.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "Plenty of people buy cars and don't list safety as top priority. Anyone who buys a motorcycle, sports car or cars in this thread falls into this category."

    I disagree somewhat. Unless you are talking about driving a Sherman tank, it is my opinion that the cars in this thread are safe cars for their weight class and are at least as safe if not safer than other comparable weight/class size vehicles. Certainly the 3 series is no less safe than the CAMRY or Accord and in fact might be safer.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Plenty of people buy cars and don't list safety as top priority. Anyone who buys a motorcycle, sports car or cars in this thread falls into this category.

    Because safety is a given in this category. When you buy a motorcycle or go skydiving, safety is a priority. If you do not plan safety before hand with those, kiss yourself good-bye sooner or later.

    Sport is not compromised by weight if sport is only one factor in your preferences rather than weighted predominatly as the goal. When one is at that higher level of sporting desire, to me, you are out of this category of vehicle. You might track the car, but there are many other choices that can excite at a much higher level.

    When I buy a vehicle for the road, safety is a high priority. Better brakes, handling, ridgitity and improved systems such as airbags are a priority DESPITE extra girth.

    Again I look to racing with ever-improving saftey system for high speed sporting as a learning for the rest of the industry!

    To each his own at the end of the day.

    Regards,
    OW
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    By the numbers, the e90 may perform better. The feel of the cars, that's another story. I'll gladly surrender airbags and sound insulation of that means the car literally feels lighter and has a been more road noise/road feel coming through the chassis into the interior.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    To each his own at the end of the day.

    Not really. We're all stuck with a 3600 lb. 335i. Think of how cool it would be to have a choice for one that weighed 2800lbs. This is the basis for complaint about weight gains over the years. Even the pure sports cars have gotten heavier, ponderous.

    BTW, regardless of what safety measures one takes in any sport or endeavor, said endeavor comes with inherent risks and some are much greater than others. For instance, flying small aircraft is said to have the highest risk out of all manner of transportation. Also, hit an unanticipated oil slick on a bike and you're going down, I don't care how safely you ride.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Think of how cool it would be to have a choice for one that weighed 2800lbs.

    I agree with the idea of an ultimate 2,800 lb 335. There would be a market for that car.

    I'm not sure the pure sports cars are ponderous, however. They are gaining weight but a C6 Z06 is hardly ponderous. A Caymen S is even lighter, 2,976.

    Yes, you can always go down on an oil slick but you need to understand the risks and provide for the best result each time you play. Same with managing a Piper Cub. Pre-flights are no guarantee but without redundant safety systems, the risks grow rather quickly.

    Regards,
    OW
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Think of how cool it would be to have a choice for one that weighed 2800lbs

    Heaven. Yank the sound insulation, take out the trunk carpeting, delete the power seats, switch the roof to CF, fenders (back/front) to plastic, hood and trunk to aluminum and for god's sake let's get rid of those awful RFTs.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,685
    The Corvette reference sparks a good question: Why does a 2007 Corvette weigh 50 lbs. less than a 1988 Corvette, while making 50% more HP, while a 2007 335i weighs 700 lbs. more than the '88, with a similar % increase in power. Both increased in price about the same %.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    The problem isn't safety equipment. The car(BMW 3 series) really isn't any safer now than it was a few years ago. It's the couple of hundred POUNDS of sound deadening material(no, really - that much), power everything, heavier sheetmetal, and so on... it all requires a heavier transmission, brakes, tires... it's a vicious cycle as the car gets heavier. Long gone are the days when the 3 series was a pure sports sedan. Now, it's a yuppie luxury car.

    Now, some cars can do it right. The Altima, which isn't a small car, mind you, is 3000lbs. And a lot of people are impressed with it, mainly because it's 500-600lbs lighter than most of the competition. It needs less power, smaller brakes, and can get by without 17 inch rims.

    Or take a RX-8. 3000lbs, fully loaded. It handles almost as well as a 3 series because it weighs 20% less. With mods, I've seen people drop another 200lbs off of it for racing without hardly changing a thing in its daily functioning(mostly aluminum parts, carbon fiber hood, etc). 2800lbs and 240+ HP is a rocket in the twisties compared to the new cars. 3/4 the weight will do that for you.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Luxury content. The 20 year gap saw the BMW turn into a very quiet, very cocooned, isolated luxurious car. The vette's still a vette...just with a bigger engine.
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