Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

kdshapiro · May 2007

"Sometimes being myself to much gets me in trouble"

That is *not* what gets you into "trouble". What gets you into trouble is the slippery slope of {name you manufacturers} model will take over the world and render all other vehicles on the planet obsolete (sic) and totally crush the competition

pat · May 2007

Well, some might say that is being himself!

Rocky is very well-intentioned as are most in the community. In any case, let's not make this discussion about a participant instead of the actual cars.

rockylee · May 2007

kd, I guess I am a Automotive Enthusiast and sometimes get over optomistic. :P

Well speaking of ELLPS's is the Lexus IS 350 going to get a Manual tranny this fall ???? any words on the 09' TL ????

Just a couple topics that fit this forum I'm interested in.

-Rocky

louiswei · May 2007

Besides that Lexus is just not into manual :sick: I think there is another reason why we won't see a manual on the IS350 anytime soon. That's out of all the markets Lexus is in, IS350 is only being offered in NA and Japan. In other markets:

China: IS300
Europe: IS250/IS220d
Korea: IS250
Taiwan: IS250

In NA, the IS350 only accounts for about 30% of the total IS sales (don't know about Japan). It is just simply not profitable for Lexus to drop a manual tranny in it I guess. Don't get me wrong, I would love to see a manual in the IS350 more than anybody but I guess to Lexus it is a business decision rather than an emotional one. Oh well, that's Lexus for ya...

Now, why won't the IS-F get a manual is totally beyond me...

andres3 · May 2007

Well, doesn't Porsche have a ELLPS in the woodworks?

Well, maybe without the "E" part.

Also... Consumer Reports begs to differ with you I believe with many a black dot on Porsche.

blueguydotcom · May 2007

No. Porsche has a performance sedan coming but it's gonna be a monster in the same vein as a CLS.

Andre, do a little research on Porsche. They commonly in the top - if not top.

andres3 · May 2007

Well, I think I will, because if I ever win this State lottery, a Porsche dealer will see me within the next week.

I think Porsche would be the first dealer I'd visit if I won the big one in the lottery... although an RS4 or R8 wouldn't be bad :shades:

habitat1 · May 2007

"Well, I think I will, because if I ever win this State lottery, a Porsche dealer will see me within the next week."

That's what I thought about 15 years ago. But fortunately, I neither wasted my money on lottery tickets, nor on buying and trading ELLPS's every 3-4 years.

I'm NOT suggesting to anyone that they run to the Porsche dealership and cross shop a 911 with a 335i or IS350. However, consider what your money bought you 15 years ago in 1992 (base MSRP's):

$16,865 - Honda Accord LX
$19,995 - Nissan Maxima GXE
$23,275 - BMW 318i
$24,340 - Acura Vigor
$25,385 - Infiniti M30

$67,750 - Porsche C2 Coupe
$76,750 - Porsche C2 Cabriolet
$86,780 - Porsche C4 Cabriolet

As you can see, even a base 911 in 1992 ran 3 times the price of a base 3 series. Back then $25,000 was a heck of a lot to spend for a sedan.

Now, 15 years later, in this ELLPS forum, we are all discussing "entry level" cars in the $35k to $50k range. A well equiped 335i runs twice what a 318i ran in 1992. Arguably, the 335i is twice the car of a 318i, but the dollars have still doubled. Except for Porsche. The base C2 Coupe runs $72,800, a mere $5k and 7% more than in 1992. Not to mention that, now, Porsche dealers will even discount. They didn't have a German word for that concept in 1992. My dealer recently sold a reasonably optioned, brand new 911 C2 for $69,000.

Like I said, I'm NOT advocating the 911 as a potential replacement for the family sedan. But relative prices have changed a lot. It wasn't that long ago (1994) when I bought a 1995 Maxima SE for $21,000 and nearly had an anxiety attack trying to justify to myself the extra $3,000 it cost over a 4-cylinder Altima GXE. Now $3,000 is barely the cost of a navigation system or Mark Levison sound system.

Want a Porsche 911 in a decade? Buy a Honda Accord now and keep it for 10 years. Put the difference that you would have spent in your "future fun account". No lottery tickets needed.

blueguydotcom · May 2007

Damn you and this 70k Porsche. Listen man, I'm supposed to get married and have puppies and junk. I'm supposed to be responsible. I see 70k brand new Porsche and I get visions of stopping by the doctor for a quick snip. "Sorry, honey, no kids. But we can get a 911 brand new!"

circlew · May 2007

Blue, don't give up the good fight. Just reading into your posts and based on your passion, just have patience. The ultimate will come for you, no doubt.

I can envision a Porsche in your hands, however. It would make the corners of your mouth reach for the stars!

Regards,
OW

plekto · May 2007

There also is the Cayman, which is a lot less expensive. I've seen those on discount for just around $40K. It's not a 911, but it's also not a slow car, either.

circlew · May 2007

Plekto, I agree. My neighbor has the Cayman S which again would be on the upper end of performance but there's that lofty price again at $65K. Really nice car but not as pure as Habitat's 911.

BTW, at UNDER 3K lbs., that would be smack in the middle of Blue's desired weight class!!

I'll bet Blueguy could get into one of these for a LOT cheaper.!

Regards,
OW

habitat1 · May 2007

"Damn you and this 70k Porsche. Listen man, I'm supposed to get married and have puppies and junk. I'm supposed to be responsible. I see 70k brand new Porsche and I get visions of stopping by the doctor for a quick snip. "Sorry, honey, no kids. But we can get a 911 brand new!"

Don't even think about it. If I had to make the choice, I wouldn't trade the fun I had just this past winter coaching my 3rd grade girls basketball team for a lifetime of 911's.

You may think there is a big difference between a 911 and a Mini-Cooper S. But in the overall scheme of things, not really. "There is no substitute" for family. And if anyone here thinks that a Honda Accord is better alternative than a 335i given those priorities, I'd be the first to applaud them.

circlew · May 2007

"There is no substitute" for family.

No truer words have ever been written, IMO.

All cars are not worth a plugged nickel compared to the experience of raising a family.

Regards,
OW

plekto · May 2007

Half of the fun is being a grandparent someday...

You get to see them deal with the crap you had to and see them suffer as you spoil their kids rotten and then they go home - not your problem anymore (evil grin)

I'm so looking forward to it

Only another 15 years or so to wait with my son...

Still, you *can* get a 3-5 year old Porsche for the price of an Accord V6... Something to think about, definitely. Oh, and there IS a back seat, technically.

pat · May 2007

A number of off-topic and/or personally directed posts have been removed.

Let me remind everyone that the subject here is ENTRY LEVEL performance sedans. Please take conversation about vehicles not in that category to the appropriate discussions and please leave off the personal comments altogether.

andres3 · May 2007

Find me a 3 year old Porsche for the price of an Accord v6! I dare you! Salvage Title? Severe Body damage? Flooded car?

Maybe!

Also.. a Porsche really isn't a Porsche unless you get the "S" model or move up to the 911.

I suppose you could drive cheap efficient dependable car(s) for 15 years and save up to buy something 70,000 dollars, but I'd like to own a sporty car while I still am young and have the reflexes to drive it properly! No offense to you old timers in here!

But thats 15 years of suffering until you can have bliss. I'd rather live in semi-bliss for my entire lifetime.

circlew · May 2007

I suppose you could drive cheap efficient dependable car(s) for 15 years and save up to buy something 70,000 dollars, but I'd like to own a sporty car while I still am young and have the reflexes to drive it properly! No offense to you old timers in here!

So get a cheap 2007 335 and live in semi-bliss before you dry up!

Regards,
OW

qbrozen · May 2007

actually, its not all that far fetched. Depends on how you do the calculations. I've found plenty of 4-year-old Boxsters with average miles in the mid-$20s pricerange. So if you compare to MSRP of an accord, you could feasibly find a 3-year-old boxster for that money.

Of course, the reality is an accord can be bought for far under msrp. So i think the buying price of a 4-year-old boxster would be about the equivalent.

I could post about a dozen examples, but here's just a few:
'03 with 40k miles
'03 with 50k miles
'03 with 47k miles

andres3 · May 2007

Hey!!!! That's why I mentioned it should be a "real" porsche, meaning it should have a Boxter S, the all important S! Without the S in Boxter, you pretty much are not getting your monies worth!

Also, 3 years instead of 4 makes a difference.

What about something other than a Boxter too?

qbrozen · May 2007

but that's stretching pletko's quote big time.

he merely said a 3-5 year old porsche.

texases · May 2007

the all important S

I imagine that a non-S Boxster would a great ride on a back road this time of year. Why worry that it's not the most powerful one around? Miata's are great fun, as was my GTI with all of 90HP! I'd much rather exercise 80% of my HP than 50%.

plekto · May 2007

http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?car_id=219625536

With a 5 year old 911 going for around $35K(if you shop around and avoid dealers), a 4-5 year old Cayman will be easily in the mid 20s.

If you really WANT a Porsche, my point was that for the price of a loaded Accord or a basic entry-level sports sedan, you can absolutely own a Porsche. Not brand new, but to 99% of people a 3-5 year old, mint condition Porsche feels like a brand new car to them.

habitat1 · May 2007

he merely said a 3-5 year old porsche

Pletko also said "with a back seat", implying he meant a 911. Move up to a 3-5 year old 911 and you can probably jump the starting price to $45,000. Just a bit more than an Accord.

cdnpinhead · May 2007

". . . .a non-S Boxster would a great ride on a back road this time of year. Why worry that it's not the most powerful one around? Miata's are great fun. . . ."

A person after my own heart.

I appreciate excellent handling, even if it's not paired with top-of-the-line power. I think I've heard it called finesse, but what do I know?

That's probably why a 328 RWD estate/avant/whatever is probably in my future.

Oh, and I've owned two Miatas & my #3 son autocrosses one now. It's possible to have fun in a car without 300 hp.

It's not the meat, it's the motion.

blueguydotcom · May 2007

Oh, and I've owned two Miatas & my #3 son autocrosses one now. It's possible to have fun in a car without 300 hp.

It's not the meat, it's the motion.

Amen. I enjoy driving my 172 HP Cooper S far more than my now departed e90. And my mom's Miata is far more fun to drive than either car.

circlew · May 2007

But 300 HP doesn't ruin anything, either, don't you think?

Regards,
OW

fedlawman · May 2007

It's all relative...

Remember just 5 years ago when 200 hp was the magic number in this segment? Remember when 0-60 in 6 seconds was fast?

Well it is fast, and when coupled with tight body control, quick steering, and "not-too-excessive" grip, it's damn entertaining.

You could give the E90 500 HP - all you'd have is a faster pig.

circlew · May 2007

I guess the new M3 will be a fast porker out of the gate.

Oh, well, some of us will just have to have a lower level of entertainment.

Regards,
OW

louiswei · May 2007

all you'd have is a faster pig

I'll take the pig that runs faster than a slow jaguar...

:P

kyfdx · May 2007

I'd say it's more like a Flying pig...

fedlawman · May 2007

I'll call a 3600 lb car a sport sedan when pigs fly...

circlew · May 2007

Regards,
OW

fedlawman · May 2007

Well, I guess that's it then...

It's a sport sedan

circlew · May 2007

I KNEW you could take a joke!!

The thing is, I was shocked at the size of the E90 as I am used to US pork bellies. This thing is still tiny in my experience. But it is perplexing at the weight which is the bane of ALL performance, straight-line or weight distribution while cornering.

When I look at the E46, it really is a personal sedan. Real personal!

But I would assume that the quest for fuel economy and the desire for performance will drive the weight down using new tech.

Look at the air transport manufacturers...they know how to reduce weight. Since the history of BMW and SAAB are linked to aviation history, why can't we get a good non-pork edition of a sedan you can fit your family in without a shoe horn?? Think high-strength and light-weight and damn the accountants!

Regards,
OW

fedlawman · May 2007

"Look at the air transport manufacturers...they know how to reduce weight."

In the air transport industry, low weight means higher speeds and lower fuel consumption, which equals higher profits for the airlines.

Low weight sells airplanes, but not cars.

"why can't we get a good non-pork edition of a sedan you can fit your family in without a shoe horn??"

You can - it's called the E30.

circlew · May 2007

Wonderful kids! Nice ride (and home), too! You've got it all covered. BTW, if I ever did get into your back seat, I do not think I could get out without your help!

Heck, if one of your kids drive alone, that's even less weight around the course! I'm sure they are eager to try one day.

Why did BMW keep adding on the tonnage?

Regards,
OW

nyccarguy · May 2007

The tonnage was added from the E30 to the E36 to accomodate an ever so slightly larger car. The chassis gets a little longer & wider (adds weight), The suspension components are beefed up to accomodate the new chassis plus new safety equipment (more weight), and a more powerful engine is plunked into the bay to "compensate" the excess weight.

People complained the E36 was too small, so BMW made the car a little bigger when the E46 rolled around. Same weight adding process happens.

...

qbrozen · May 2007

he said "technically with a back seat."

I could take that in a number of ways. my dog sits on the parcel shelf in my alfa. so ain't that "technically" a seat? she'd say so.

;b

andres3 · May 2007

And I have extreme fun driving around a 200HP Audi A3, but if your going to spend 30K or so on a 4 year old or so vehicle, or 70K on a new one, I think you might as well hope your getting something significantly more in the HP department; something like 300HP or more.

circlew · May 2007

Lucky for the ELLPS folks that the drive-in movies are a thing of the past. Can you imagine if a pick-up parked in front of an A4?

Heck, you'd have better ordered the moon roof to see the screen!

Also, good luck getting close to your date in one of these sardine cans! Houdini would have had trouble in, say, an IS250 . Just stick to holding hands for the duration of "Night of the Living Dead". Heck, that's why us guys took the babes to see the horror movies, to get up front and personal. In these cars, even the back seat is off limits!

These are pretty tight flying pigs to me! :P

Regards,
OW

fedlawman · May 2007

"hope your getting something significantly more in the HP department; something like 300HP or more."

There aren't too many Lotus Elise owners complaining about a lack of HP...

blueguydotcom · May 2007

Went to a drive-in with my 06 330i last July - a friend had 20 of us go to the only drive-in around San Diego for her b-day - and we saw just fine. The spots are tilted.

Horrible movie by the way - Pirates 2. I wanted to gouge out my eyes and set myself on fire for even sitting through it.

fedlawman · May 2007

You went to the drive-in and actually watched the movie?!?!

blueguydotcom · May 2007

We were there with 20 other friends. We want to get frisky, we go to our home. It was a party - BBQs, lawn chairs, liquor, etc. (I didn't drink alcohol as I was a driver).

BTW, the stereo in the BMW was horrid for a movie soundtrack. It was the only time I recall ever using the radio reception and the speakers/reception/etc sucked massively.

circlew · May 2007

Blue, that's real funny!

That's why you need bench seats...it's not really about the movie anyway!

Regards,
OW

ggesq · June 2007

http://forums.nicoclub.com/zerothread/260025

louiswei · June 2007

I don't think this is the first time that a G beats a 3er. Isn't that several years ago when the G35 first came out that it beats out the E46 3er to become the best ELLPS? However, this one is definitely more significant since the 335i is new as well as the G37.

mayberryguy · June 2007

Does anyone else find it suspicious that Infiniti supplied the 335i for the MT article?

Is Motor Trend so lazy they can work a clutch anymore? Pathetic. :mad:

habitat1 · June 2007

Mind you, I have NEVER owned a BMW and I still think my 1995 Nissan Maxima SE 5-speed was one of the best cars I've ever owned, but that Motor Trend article is so full of crap I can smell it coming out of my computer.

First, the absolutely pathetic (I agree mayberryguy) excuse for comparing slushboxes that Motor Trend quotes: they are more "popular". For crap's sake, you Motor Trend idiots, you are comparing two performance oriented coupes (not the more "popular" sedans or some Camry/Accord lookalike) that cater more to the "enthusiast" buyer. And then you do the test of slushbox against slushbox and actually think any serious enthusaist gives a crap? Save the trees and stop printing such garbage.

But, guess what, the BMW still wins in EVERY single performance category. Acceleration, skidpad, braking (tie actually). And it gets almost 20% better gas mileage. Pretty easy to see who the "winner" is in this slushbox comparo from my seat.

Oh, but wait, the BMW costs $8k more than the Infiniti. Well, I hate to break it to those MT rocket scientists, but if you take BMW's 20% better fuel economy, BMW's included maintenance and BMW's much better resale value there is NO real difference in cost over 4-5 years. But that's way above their math skills.

As best I can tell, the marketing department of Nissan paid Motor Trend, big time, for a complete BS comparison. If they didn't, they should send Motor Trend a big box of chocolates. Too bad, because I would have actually liked to see an honest, unbiased comparison of the G37 coupe against the 335i coupe equiped the way anyone who really wants to DRIVE these cars would - with a manual transmission. And without some assinine concluding comment like "considering the micro performance margins and macro price differential".

MT needs to take a macro walk off a micro pier on this one. Utter crap.

Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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