Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

ggesq · June 2007

I agree completely. I also find it suspect that in the second time these cars were pitted against each other, the BMW was not equipped w/ an oil cooler.

Not to take anything away from the G37 but from a performance aspect, I think we all know who really won.

cdnpinhead · June 2007

Well, I was waiting for this, and thank you for providing it -- didn't have to wait long.

I'm the proud? owner of a MT COTY from back in '99 & am here to say that advertising dollars may be at work here.

louiswei · June 2007

habitat1, good to see you back in action.

As you may know by now, I don't have a problem with MT testing out 2 automatic performance coupes since 99.9% of the buyers will most likely intend to buy these cars as daily drivers instead of for track use. Hint: these are not the equivalence to the 911 or even the Boxster. :P

However, I do agree with you 150% that this comparo has BS written all over it. How can the car wins in all categories loss a head-to-head comparison? MT can spin it anyway they want but this one will be too hard to justify. I guess MT is desperate for more subscribers and by "dethroning" an obvious current benchmark will no doubt generate some heat.

Another good example of the current MT strategy is the RX350 vs. Veracruz comparo.

fedlawman · June 2007

The G37 Coupe has a 112" wheelbase and weighs #3800 lbs! If you want a slushbox too, you might as well buy a Crown Vic.

storrk1 · June 2007

Hi. Does anyone know if the Infiniti G sedan will receive the 3.7 liter, coupe engine? I'm considering the purchase of a sedan but will wait if it will get the 3.7 liter engine. Thanks.

ivan_99 · June 2007

I agree, nothing wrong in comparing two auto trannies.

Kinda lame in doing so, but they should be equally lame.

What I find interesting is the line
With little or no pretense to practicality, their designers are given extra latitude to help seduce the emotional right brains of prospective buyers...

No pretense to practicality...except your mom's slush box.

I haven't driven both...the G may be the better auto sports (GT ?) car.

circlew · June 2007

I can't get excited about the articles in these rags. I test what I like and make my own choice. I tested a A/T 2005 G35 coupe and my take was the car did not have as solid a feel as the 330i sedan I tested. I rather the 4 door variant and the previous G35 sedan was NOT appealing in my view.

I assume I am not a true enthusiast (just a candy [non-permissible content removed]) but I like to drive and honestly, you can have fun with an A/T. That said, I agree the purist point that Habitat and Fedlawman make regarding a comparo in this category should have the M/T. I won't look forward to the next article in the series, however. Why do they keep choosing 3'ers that get hot? I believe in one sedan test, they had to shut it down also. Not sure if MT or Edmunds, though.

Don't get me wrong, I've driven three-on-the tree and four on the floor but now I am just a drag!

Wow, I thought my car was a mini-van! The new G is 150 lbs. heavier! Holy Cow, Batman!

Regards,
OW

habitat1 · June 2007

The G37 Coupe has a 112" wheelbase and weighs #3800 lbs! If you want a slushbox too, you might as well buy a Crown Vic.

LOL! Remember the G37 coupe is from the same obese Nissan engineers that brought you the 350Z "Roadster" that weighs roughly the same as an S2000 or Boxster - with a 700 lb water buffalo sitting in the passenger seat. :surprise:

The 3,770 lb G37 coupe splits the difference between two of my previous vehicles: My 3,001 lb 5-passenger 1995 Maxima SE and my former 4,300 lb Isuzu Trooper SUV. No wait, I'm wrong. The G37 is closer to the Trooper. :confuse:

qbrozen · June 2007

well, i guess i'll just have to wait for my issue to arrive to find out who the real winner is. That scanned article doesn't contain the scoring boxes, and the way I always determine the true winner of magazine comparos is to recalculate the points by eliminating the ridiculous categories like "gotta have it factor," "number of big gulps the cupholders can handle," and whatever other silly things they want to rate.

I gotta say, however, I am impressed they got the G37 automatic to hit 60 mph in 5.4 secs. That's pretty darned good. And considering most other test I've seen of the 335 auto have it hitting 60 in under 5 secs, maybe it was a slow track day and the G37 is even better than the 5.4 would indicate. Either way, for a heavy auto coupe, that's good.

gja · June 2007

Well one good thing about the MT article is that they keep mentioning the oil temperature problem on the BMW. Maybe this will help get BMW to retrofit oil coolers on the earlier cars!

kdshapiro · June 2007

Infiniti probably has a fleet of 1 BMW 335i without an oil cooler that they keep circulating to the press for these comparos.

blueguydotcom · June 2007

smart move on their part...too bad the G35 is not as much fun as the the first gen.

kdshapiro · June 2007

Welcome back! Your unique commentary has been missed of late.

louiswei · June 2007

Nah, got too many Bimmer fans here already. Missing one or two is no biggy. :P

J/k, good to hear from you again bgdc. How you like your Mini Cooper S so far? By the way, have you heard about the 135i coming to US next year? I think your wish has been granted by BMW.

Edit: The 135i has been confirmed.

What's up with BMW and ugly rear end lately? I hope it's the angle because that Bangle butt looks so out of place in a small car like the 1-series.

blueguydotcom · June 2007

Super busy. Plus I got rid of the ELLPS 3 months ago, so I mostly drop in to read/lurk.

fedlawman · June 2007

2007 Kia Rio:

blueguydotcom · June 2007

I don't see it. I see something that looks great - small, tight and RWD. A 4/5 door 3.0TT version would get my money without a moment's hesitation.

stevecebu · June 2007

What's up with BMW and ugly rear end lately? I hope it's the angle because that Bangle butt looks so out of place in a small car like the 1-series.

We have the BMW 1 series hatchbacks here and they look really good. I'm sorry but the 1 series coupe looks like it was designed as an after thought.
Of course it might look better in person and of course how it actually drives is very important. It looks like there is no room in the back seats so maybe it's a 2+2?
The price point is really going to matter with this car. The MINI isn't available in most places like BMW's so if they price it well over a MINI which for me is going to be about 100 miles away, service would be a big problem. So no MINI for me. This has possibilities but not if they overprice it. I think they need to base the 135i at about $27K. Much higher and you start competing with all kinds of cars.

qbrozen · June 2007

That is exactly the discussion we've been having over on the BMW 1-series thread.

stevecebu · June 2007

That is exactly the discussion we've been having over on the BMW 1-series thread.

Yep I'm reading that discussion as well. But the posted pics are not flattering to the Coupe. The new Accord Coupe looks much better from a styling perspective

blueguydotcom · June 2007

The accord coupe is much bigger and it's a FWD. There's no comparing the two. The Accord coupe is titanic-sized, like the e92 3 series coupe.

stevecebu · June 2007

The accord coupe is much bigger and it's a FWD. There's no comparing the two. The Accord coupe is titanic-sized, like the e92 3 series coupe.

Sorry but if the price point is going to be the same or more it's pretty comparable. If these guys who are saying it will be $28K for a 128i and $35K for a 135i. You can bet it's going to be compared with a lot of cars in that price segment which will kill off the 1 series.
i'm BMW fan but I also know they can only charge so much for a 1 series which is very small and limited and unless that back seat is comfortable and/or the trunk or back seat can hold gold clubs many BMW owners will not buy it and new buyers will be turned off by such a high price for such a small car.
I know the Accord is FWD but it's a lot less after discounts than $28K and it holds 4 people very comfortably.
BMW should make just an M1 coupe if they want $35K for the car. I still think they will charge less than people are thinking. Because for almost the same money the 3 series is considerably more useable. Yes the Accord is huge but it sure looks better from the pics I've seen. The new 1 series screams rental car to me.

blueguydotcom · June 2007

Steve, you sound like the people who bash the 318ti. And yet the that car's value is through the roof today as many bimmer fans realized how great it is.

25-26k for the 128 and 31k or so for the base 135i. As all non-M car BMWs are sold at a discount, expect to buy them for about 1500-2k less than MSRP. ED pricing puts them a good 5k below the MSRP.

The 3 isn't the car for people looking for a fun, small, nimble RWD coupe. I had one...it didn't fit the bill.

stevecebu · June 2007

Steve, you sound like the people who bash the 318ti. And yet the that car's value is through the roof today as many bimmer fans realized how great it is.
25-26k for the 128 and 31k or so for the base 135i. As all non-M car BMWs are sold at a discount, expect to buy them for about 1500-2k less than MSRP. ED pricing puts them a good 5k below the MSRP.
The 3 isn't the car for people looking for a fun, small, nimble RWD coupe. I had one...it didn't fit the bill.

I'm not bashing the 318ti. I just don't think it compares well to the 1 series.
Price is going to be a factor even tho some factor in eliteness. I maintain my guesses for pricing but that's for base MSRP. What you can get the car for is another matter with too many variables. Let's see how well BMW does at selling the 1 series at a high price point. Honda sells more accords which sticker out about that price yet sell for considerably less. But of course the Accord is a huge car.
The 3 series sadly is now overweight hopelessly so. Great car but not what it once was. The 1 series can do a lot but not if they price it as high as cars which will be more desirable to the average car buyer. I know, I know BMW isn't for everyone. But BMW wants to make money and they need new blood in the showrooms. The 1 series is small and will probably be a great car if they don't kill it with over pricing.

Karen_S · June 2007

Full Test: 2008 Mercedes-Benz C350 Sport

Post your comments in this topic:

Article comments for 2008 MB C350 Full Test

blueguydotcom · June 2007

The 1 series can do a lot but not if they price it as high as cars which will be more desirable to the average car buyer. I know, I know BMW isn't for everyone. But BMW wants to make money and they need new blood in the showrooms. The 1 series is small and will probably be a great car if they don't kill it with over pricing.

I don't know what overpricing is for a BMW. The 3 series supposedly is overpriced yet they move 100k of them a year. 31-32k seems totally reasonable for a RWD performance coupe with 300 hp. I can't think of another coupe with rwd and 300+ hp for that kinda money.

For me, if they had a 1 series sedan, I'd be at the dealership today putting down my deposit for a summer of 08 delivery (I'd do ED to save 4-5k off MSRP). Shrug, 32k seems like a steal for that kind of performance, luxury and quality. Nothing else exists like it.

habitat1 · June 2007

Shrug, 32k seems like a steal for that kind of performance, luxury and quality. Nothing else exists like it.

I agree.

I'm pretty sure it wouldn't match the 3 series in sales numbers given that it's more of a niche market, but I think it would do quite well. Probably at least as well as BMW have done with the Z4 which is also a niche market and where they face (IMO) superior competition in the form of the lower priced Honda S2000 and higher priced Boxster S. The 1 series represents a niche that they could potentially dominate.

qbrozen · June 2007

31-32k seems totally reasonable for a RWD performance coupe with 300 hp.

i think steve and i have been on the same page on this one so far. and, yes, we both agree with you. but many folks here seem to think the car will be $35k, and that's the pricepoint at which it won't seem like a good deal.

plekto · June 2007

Well, purists who want a REAL 3 series of yore experience will get the 1 series with nothing but a stereo and AC. It'll be going out the door in stock form for a tad over 30K I bet.

Shoot, I remember my friend's 2002 in college. That's a real BMW and always will be. A 3600lb+ jellybean...

My mother's 2000 LeSabre weighs about the same as the new 3 series. No, really.

Park Ave:
39.5 ft turning circle
112.2 Wheelbase
206.8 L x 73.5 W

BMW 335i
3593 lbs
36.1 ft turning circle
108.7 Wheelbase
178.2L x 71.5W

Looks good so far, right?

Guess which one is which? This is the real shocker.
3593 lbs
3591 lbs

blueguydotcom · June 2007

35k is unrealistic. That would make it 3k less than a 335i. There's no way they're gonna price it that close to the 3. The gap between the 3-5-7 is much larger than that.

If you're claiming 35k, then you're also saying the 128 will start at around 31k. That simply can't be. It'd be starting 1k lower than the 328i.

26k-27k would put the 128 a few k over the Cooper S and that'd leave the 135 to roll in at 31-32k. Add sport and premium and the car is already at 35.5k then.

stevecebu · June 2007

26k-27k would put the 128 a few k over the Cooper S and that'd leave the 135 to roll in at 31-32k. Add sport and premium and the car is already at 35.5k then.

The MINI is not a factor it is a niche car with no BMWNA support. They have their own dealerships and are very limited in the markets they sell in. For me I'd consider one but the dealer would be 1.5 hours away and that's a long haul for an oil change and never mind a repair where they have to keep the car for a few days.
BMW will price the 1 series below their own 3 series. Realistically they have a certain Gap between all the cars.
I'm going with the Coupe because the 1 series is initially a coupe. Oh and this is MSRP not what TMV is since it doesn't exist on the 2008's 3 series the 5 series is 2008 prices and the 1 series is a 2008. Still the numbers should hold.

The Base 328i Coupe MSRP is $35,300
The Base 335i Coupe MSRP is $40,800
Difference between the two cars $5,500

The Base 528i Sedan (no coupe available) MSRP $44,300
The Base 535i Sedan MSRP $49,400

The difference between the 528i and the 535i is $5,100
The difference between the 328i and the 528i is $9,000
The difference between the 335i and the 535i is $8,600

There is no way the base MSRP on the 1 series Coupe will be $30K

Looking at the figures it makes sense for BMW to slot the 1 series under the other car makers noses. based on the above figures and sure it's all MSRP but discounts cannot be counted on, MSRP is a given.
I see the Base 128i MSRP at $26,300
and the Base 135i MSRP at $31,400

I think this is what is most likely based on extrapolating figures between the 3 and 5 series.
However I think to pull in more buyers and of course with obvious discounts the 128i could sell for as low as $25K base and the 135i at $30K. Options will boost up the prices. I still think it's high for the market but what the market will bear is another thing.

I think a lower price will draw in more customers and new blood but I'm not BMW. But these figures seem to be pretty close. Value at this price point will be determined by the buyers.

Oh I grabbed all figures for MSRP off of the Edmunds Website. I did not use TMV.

circlew · June 2007

But which one hits the wall first on a skid pad test?

Regards,
OW

qbrozen · June 2007

we are all in agreement. It is not each other who we need to convince. All 3 of us think the 128 should be somewhere around $25-$27 and the 135 to be 29-32.

if you read through the 1-series discussion i posted a link to previously, there are others here who think quite differently, however.

stevecebu · June 2007

if you read through the 1-series discussion i posted a link to previously, there are others here who think quite differently, however.

Yes we agree, I was just posting to the read not just to an individual in this case. My bad.

I think people can think whatever they want but when it comes to buy it that's when the tires hit the road.
At least the guys who think it will sell for $35K will be able to get a few options with the extra money.

I think I am posting on 2 BMW groups for the 1 series and I think I have a 3 series group as well as some others.
I've gotta add a couple more threads and remove a few as well.

fedlawman · June 2007

I hope and pray that you guys are correct and prices are as low as you predict. Personally, I don't see it.

Consider this - how much did the E46 330i coupe sticker for? On paper, the 128i should be a dead ringer for this car in performance - and it's even built on a version of the same platform.

According to NADA, Edmunds, and KBB, $25,000 doesn't even buy a used 2003 330i coupe! Why on earth would BMW sell this much performance for the price of a VW Jetta?

qbrozen · June 2007

how much did the E46 330i coupe sticker for?

i don't see why this matters. its a smaller car. that's like pricing a mazda3s based on a mazda6 4-banger just because they have the same powertrain.

kyfdx · June 2007

Actually, I think you can buy the Mazda6 for less than the Mazda3 S.. :surprise:

qbrozen · June 2007

well, MSRP and street price are 2 entirely different things. the cheapest mazda6 is PRICED $2k more than the cheapest mazda3s.

blueguydotcom · June 2007

Fed, the world has changed. An e46 coupe was outclassed power wise by 2005. And Nada is on crack; their numbers are always wrong.

The 1 series will compete with the Jetta GLI and GTI for buyers. The other close competitor will be the A3. Those start at 24k. It's fighting in a different division than the 3 series. The 3 series battles the IS, G and A4. The 1 will duke it out for the high end economy performance cars (WRX, GTI, Mazdaspeed3) and top out at the mid end of the entry-lux world (probably max at about 40-41k).

blueguydotcom · June 2007

Easily. They have deals and rebates that make the 6 a 16-17k car with the 2.3 while the Mazda3 with the 2.3 doesn't get the fat rebates.

mz6greyghost · June 2007

"Street price" or not, that doesn't mean that you can't get a 6i for less than a 3S, and I think that's the point they're trying to make.

Locally, a 6i sport with no options retails for $19,825. a 3s Grand Touring with no options retails for $20,490.

kyfdx · June 2007

I never stated that the 128i and the 135i would start at $30K and $35K, respectively... Just that those would be typically equipped coupe prices.

If you price out a 328i or 335i coupe, with any sort of typical options, you'll see prices of over $40K and $45K, respectively...

I think my guesses are spot on... but, they are still just guesses. I think the rest of you are over-estimating BMW's desire to be price competitive. These are niche vehicles.

Plus, in almost every case, by the time cars arrive in the USA, they are priced several thousand higher than early speculation. Guess high, and you have a better chance of being correct.

Guess low at your own peril...

regards,
kyfdx

blueguydotcom · June 2007

Kyfdx, I agree about typically equipped. In fact you might be low. As an automatic, zsp and prem add about 5k to the price. I'd figure 31k for the average MSRP of the 128 and 37k MSRP or so for the 135.

qbrozen · June 2007

then it is a point that has no bearing on the discussion. we are discussing it in terms of MSRP on the 1-series, NOT street prices. Comparing street prices of one car with sticker on another is never valid. the point is where it will be priced in relation to the manufacturer's own lineup.

Whether or not a 3-series coupe will need to be discounted because of the existence of the 1-series is a WHOLE nother topic, and THAT is where we could compare actual sale prices of other cars (and, honestly, not a bad discussion, i don't think).

qbrozen · June 2007

well, we'll just have to wait a little longer and see if fedlawman has to eat a bug. ;b

mz6greyghost · June 2007

then it is a point that has no bearing on the discussion. we are discussing it in terms of MSRP on the 1-series, NOT street prices. Comparing street prices of one car with sticker on another is never valid. the point is where it will be priced in relation to the manufacturer's own lineup.

Let's check the replay, shall we?
Locally, a 6i sport with no options retails for $19,825. a 3s Grand Touring with no options retails for $20,490.

Last time I checked, when a car "retails" for a certain amount, that pretty much means MSRP, not "street prices".

kyfdx · June 2007

Okay...

It's my fault for continuing to lead us off-topic.. Just follow the link about "eating a bug" above, and we can continue the 1-series pricing discussion, in the 1-series thread...

Sorry,
kyfdx
visiting host

qbrozen · June 2007

and... a loaded up model vs a base model means??

Last time I checked, when a car "retails" for a certain amount, that pretty much means MSRP, not "street prices".

nope. you are still buying from a retail store, even if you pay a discounted price. when best buy has a computer on sale, the sale price is what it "retails" for. MSRP = manufacturers suggested retail price.

but, really, this is getting silly. the plain and simple of it is a matter of showing how the BASE MSRP of a 1-series, regardless of the fact that it has the same powertrain as a 3-series, should and probably will be cheaper than the BASE MSRP of the 3-series with said powertrain. That's all. That's the comment I responded to with my comparison of how a BASE 6i MSRP is more than a BASE 3s MSRP.

I guess to answer your comparison ... YES, I agree with you and totally expect a loaded up 1-series to exceed the MSRP of a base model 3-series.

stevecebu · June 2007

I never stated that the 128i and the 135i would start at $30K and $35K, respectively... Just that those would be typically equipped coupe prices.
If you price out a 328i or 335i coupe, with any sort of typical options, you'll see prices of over $40K and $45K, respectively...
I think my guesses are spot on... but, they are still just guesses. I think the rest of you are over-estimating BMW's desire to be price competitive. These are niche vehicles.

I think you will find that BMW has to start being competitive the 3 series has cars that are catching up and for less money. Sure BMW is great but it's like playing king of the hill back when we were kids.
sooner or later you're going to go down. BMW has pretty much been the class leader for a long time. That tends to make them lazy and their competitors very motivated.
As someone points out the 1 series is going to have a lot of cars to compete with and BMW is not as much a niche market as before. It's car used by average guys, accountants commuting to work. It's not a Blue Collar muscle car but BMW's are pretty common place. Th e1 series might be great but it's got some work ahead of itself to remain the class leader. Price for small cars really matters and the 1 series is small. If the price is big it will be cross shopped heavily and while many guys can and will throw $35K at one that won't be common after a while.
Low or high it doesn't matter They sell the hatchbacks here and I can call up and get a price but it's about $35K for a 4 door hatch with a 4 cyl. But cars are all overpriced here especially foreign cars but I think BMW is actually made here. It's like 1.5 million PhP a bit over $32K actually for their lowest base model. Very few sales tho and imports are a lot cheaper. Here you'll pay $36,740 for a 2007 V6 Honda Accord! No chance of a discount, no free floor mats, nothing, pay or don't buy it. The price is set in stone. Oh wait you do get free window tint, sorry for the error.
It's going to be interesting to see what the 1 series MSRP's at and that will also position BMW for the future.
For me if it's too high for what you get I'll just buy something else. :shades:

stevecebu · June 2007

then it is a point that has no bearing on the discussion. we are discussing it in terms of MSRP on the 1-series, NOT street prices. Comparing street prices of one car with sticker on another is never valid. the point is where it will be priced in relation to the manufacturer's own lineup.
Whether or not a 3-series coupe will need to be discounted because of the existence of the 1-series is a WHOLE other topic, and THAT is where we could compare actual sale prices of other cars (and, honestly, not a bad discussion, i don't think).

Absolutely spot on! How can we compare all options and trim or invoice and rebates and everything else? We can't! I don't know why some guys don't understand MSRP. It's the easiest way to make a close guess on the value of a car that has yet to be released.
street prices are meaningless because a dealer in one area does volume and discounts heavily and another wants full MSRP.
The 1 series has to slot under the 3 series, if it overlaps by too much then it will eat into the sales.
I know we see pretty much eye to eye on this. I don't know why some people to expect it to be an overpriced car which will not hold up in the market place at a high price point.

The 3 series will probably not compete too heavily as it's a much larger car and more luxury for more money. That is why the price has to be low on the 1 series. It won't do any good if it steals sales from the 3 series. It's supposed to add sales.
You're right, it is a good discussion.

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