Honda Odyssey vs Dodge/Chrysler minivans

4aodge · January 2002

I am speechless. I can't believe an adult would write in the manner in which arbarnhart has. I think it's sad that some people here resort to personal attacks just because they don't agree with someone elses choices on MINIVANS, among all things.

I am 16 years old. I've been participating in these message boards for almost 2 years now and I think I have made some pretty damn interesting points over the years, especially for a teenager who doesnt have enough experience to be taken seriously here.

I am very dissapointed in the behavior that has been exhibited by arbarhart. I would think, and hope, that over the last two years I have earned more here at Troll Hall than to just be disregarded as an inexperienced teenager by some adult who can't except a difference in opinion.

And yes, I have a life outside of Edmunds.com. I like girls and I like fast cars, I just value the room, utility, and economy of the minivan. These cars get much better gas mileage than SUVs and you can fit more people into them, at least most of the time.

As for your daughters, arbarhart, if they are anything like you than I would never want to have anything to do with them, and I don't know who else would!

-Adam
(16/M/CA)

dkrab · January 2002

The idea that a heavier vehicle will stop shorter because it bites into the pavement/gravel/dirt better is a popular myth. But a quick check with logic argues that a heavier object has more stored energy in the form of inertia, and will therefore require more energy be dispersed to stop it. In general, heavier cars take longer to stop.

Think of it this way, if a freight train and a motorcycle are both going 50 mph, and they both slam on the brakes at the same time, which will come to a full stop first? To make it more relevant, how about a motorcycle and a Cadillac? Some of this is a function of surface area at the tires, but the cycle has less. If two cars ride on the same tires, the lighter car has the advantage. Simple high school physics.

Carleton, a coolant leak that requires a new head gasket is, indeed, a blown head gasket. Sorry.

4aodge · January 2002

From what I have heard and read, the 3.3L Chrysler V6 is a very reliable engine and has been used since the early days of the Chrysler minivans in the 1980s. I also say this from personal experience. Our 1998 Dodge Grand Caravan SE with the 3.3L V6 went 70k miles without any problems as has our current ride, a 2000 Town & Country with the 3.3L engine that has 33k miles on it. And just about all of those miles were what I like to call "hard" miles.

Anyway, I do not believe that the leak resulting in a new head gasket in Carl's 1999 Grand Caravan SE is representative of most if not all current 3.3L engines. As the Chrysler enthusiast site "Allpar" sugguests, the 3.3L engine is "tried and true," and I believe they are right from what I have seen and heard.

-Adam

caviller · January 2002

Carleton1 uttered:

"Why do you not trust current Odyssey owners who are writing about problems with current Honda Odysseys in the Town Hall....yet you believe "Not Recommended for Purchase" CR as if it were the Bible or Quran?"

Perhaps because CR uses a survey to produce its statistics, with over half a million responses? I bet they could cut their cost by an order of magnitude if they used anecdotal usenet and enthusiast forums for their source of statistics. A solid math course might have some fundamental statistics which could help you understand why they don't do this. I highly suggest one. Means, modes, medians, variance, standard deviation, margins of error, etc. Online forums are great for discovering which types of problems may be among the more frequent ones which affect a particular vehicle. On the other hand, their nature makes them very poor for determining overall problem rates or relative comparisons to other vehicles.

Consumer Reports has its own set of flaws, but none I think nearly as major as trying to get any useful comparative statistical information from a forum like this one.

4aodge said:

I am 16 years old. I've been participating in these message boards for almost 2 years now and I think I have made some pretty damn interesting points over the years, especially for a teenager who doesnt have enough experience to be taken seriously here."

Please stick around. No one benefits if people leave discussions like this one. As it is, I suspect you are more mature than many people who wield the right to vote. Fast cars are nice, but as I recall a large back seat was also very popular. Hard to beat a minivan in that category.

carleton1 · January 2002

Why doesn't Consumer Reports state the number of owners who responded to their questionaire for EACH vehicle? They have the data so why are they hiding it unless the actual cold, hard numbers would let the public know their data is NOT statistically valid?
I have successfully completed many university level math courses and am very well educated in math sufficient to know that CR should state the number of respondents for each vehicle to have credibility.
Consumer Reports reliability data has been inaccurate on most of the vehicles and appliances we have owned. Based on being a subscriber to CR for many years and reading inaccurate information, I no longer subscribe but read CR occasionally in the Public Library to get ideas on features to consider.
I can personally verify the information told me by owners of vehicles. The facts are that 4 of 7 Honda Accords (owned by people we know and verifiable) had major problems. One had constant non-curable electrical problems. One had transmission failure and two had transmission AND engine failure. NO DC minivan had any problems as of March 16, 1999 when we had placed an order for a Granite Green 1999 Odyssey LX-C.
Call it anecdotes or any other convenient, disparaging epithet but real world, verifiable data has more significance to many people than the unreliable myths contained in CR.

pat84 · January 2002

CR is geared to rate appliances. Toasters, refrigerators, etc. (Even some of the appliance models they rate are no longer available). CR is a fairly poor tool in evaluating vehicles prior to purchase. I think we agree on its value.
What difference does CR make after purchasing ? It is nice for fueling flames, apparently.
We all made our purchases on what met our needs at the time. Needs in vehicles evolve with time. Vehicles also change at some greater frequency.
As I have posted, the differences are relatively minor. Some items are higher priorities for some.
I truly believe that competition benefits us all because it results in improvements in our next vehicle.
.

carleton1 · January 2002

Glad to read a posting again from you and happy that your lovely Odyssey continues to perform flawlessly. As with you, we can see advantages in either the Odyssey or DC minivans.
We like the Odyssey and DC minivans. At the moment, our choice would probably be the Odyssey LX since the closest dealer has the best salesman we currently know who sells either brand. I like the local Dodge dealership service department but whenever we meet a salesperson we like while in for service, that person has departed by the time we go in for the next routine oil change.
We have met an equally decent salesman who sells Chrysler in a location 30 miles from us. The T&C eL would be our 2nd choice.

caviller · January 2002

Why doesn't Consumer Reports state the number of owners who responded to their questionaire for EACH vehicle? They have the data so why are they hiding it unless the actual cold, hard numbers would let the public know their data is NOT statistically valid?

A valid question. Still, with over 500,000 respondents, I suspect vehicles like Odyssey and Grand Caravan are well represented.

I have successfully completed many university level math courses and am very well educated in math sufficient to know that CR should state the number of respondents for each vehicle to have credibility.

Then I encourage you to go back and reread my posts regarding averages and statistical significance. Your understanding at the time seemed very limited, unless your intention was to ignore the mathematics in favor of pure speculation.

Consumer Reports reliability data has been inaccurate on most of the vehicles and appliances we have owned. Based on being a subscriber to CR for many years and reading inaccurate information, I no longer subscribe but read CR occasionally in the Public Library to get ideas on features to consider.

Having taken these math courses and being an informed consumer, you should, by now, know about averages and variances. Even the most reliable products overall will have some instances of units with poor reliability. You may remember the classic bell-curve. Most are in the middle, then it tapers off but still leaves some on the fringes of the distribution. Yes, it is possible to buy a lemon of even the most reliable make or model, but unless you dismiss the mathematics of averages and distributions you are far more likely to get a unit that is reliable than not. Also, as a former subscriber, you should also know that with the exception of autos, reliability is not broken down by model or year. Instead it is a lumped average of many products over the previous years. That's a guideline, not a direct sampling of the particular appliance you bought.

I can personally verify the information told me by owners of vehicles. The facts are that 4 of 7 Honda Accords (owned by people we know and verifiable) had major problems. One had constant non-curable electrical problems. One had transmission failure and two had transmission AND engine failure. NO DC minivan had any problems as of March 16, 1999 when we had placed an order for a Granite Green 1999 Odyssey LX-C.
Call it anecdotes or any other convenient, disparaging epithet but real world, verifiable data has more significance to many people than the unreliable myths contained in CR.

It's nice you state your sample sizes, but merely stating them does not make them significant. Indeed, the reliability figures from Consumer Reports are not from their editors. Instead they are submitted by real world, verifiable subscribers. You should know that, having been one.

If you insist on sampling yourself and making a legitimate conclusion then I have some suggestions. Your advanced statistics (or marketing) courses would help here, too. Increase your numbers to N>100, for starters. Give each respondent a well-designed questionaire so that there is no subjectivitiy involved. Make it anonymous and voluntary. You can even do Consumer Reports one better and make it randomly sampled across a wide demographic. When you have the results, then we'll talk about mathematics.

Until then, don't be too angry at Consumer Reports. Even by their own admission, the average problem rate for new autos is 0.2 problems per vehicle over the last 12 months. At that rate, it takes a below average vehicle many years to have even one more problem than an above average vehicle. That says to me that most cars are pretty reliable. Still, despite the flaws in Consumer Reports, I put a lot more confidence in their survey than in your unverified anecdotes. No offense.

Cheers.

bluffhouse · January 2002

I said the heavier vehicle stops better under certain conditions, mainly snow and ice. The light vehicles are all over the place. Trust me, I'm an avid California skier and driven and seen them all. The old full sized American cars used to blow by my small cars in the snow.
As for braking, according to the article I read, the Sedona with rear drum brakes stopped just as good as the Odessey with rear disk brakes. I'm not sure why, but apparently the Sedona made good without spending as much.
Thanks for clearing up the head gasket issue.
On the performance side the Sedona with 500 extra pounds and 45 less horsepower is good for 0-60 in about 9.8 while the Odessey comes in about 9.0. The reason they are kind of close is the Sedona has a lot of low end torque. It develops about 220 ft lbs at 3,400 rpms. The Oddessey develops it's torque way up high in a range most people will never see.
Another standard feature the Sedona has is the ability to tow 3,500lbs. The Oddessey needs the tow package to do that and most of them don't.
I realize the space is not quite as abundant as the Oddessey, at least as far as cargo space. The passenger space is amost identical, although the rear headroom is an issue on the Sedona.
With all things considered, the 75% price, 300% warranty with 95% size, it would be hard for me to justify the Odessey over the Sedonda.
On the size ratings, most of the articles compa4re the regular caravan, the Sedona, the Sienna, and the Odessey in the same size category, while the Grand Caravan is definately longer and wider. As for ultimate size, none of these even come close to the Safari size, it's probably 5 inches wider and 5 inches taller. In fact you can easily get to the rear seats without squeezing by the middle. As for cargo space, my guess is the Safari has twice that of the Odessey. The only real drawback with the Safari, is the front occupants are riding in the crumple zone. It's a shame GM hasn't done anything about their safety.

dmathews3 · January 2002

Just a thought on the horsepower. I don't know if you were around in the late 60's but for the old hotrodders out there that Ford v Chevy at the drags was the big thing. Chevy seemed to blow away the Fords all the time even though they had the same or less advertised HP. Those in the know including the car magazines all knew that a 427 Chevy with 425 HP checked out on a dyno at over 500 HP. Could be that the Sedona does the same. But it would be cool if you could get about 400 HP with a van.

tj_610 · January 2002

I just posted my thoughts re: Ody vs. Siena in that topic. Just wanted to give my thoughts here, and also solicit responses from Chrysler owners. We recently put deposit down on Ody. It really came down to Ody and Siena, but we did look at T&C. These are the reasons we did not pursue it, but I am happy to hear reasonable rebuttals or correction of my errors by happy T&C owners. I will also list the things I really liked about T&C:
1. Most important was our personal experiences with Japanese cars (good) vs. American (bad). I admit, though, neither one of us has ever owned a Dodge/Chrysler car.
2. As best I could find out, both on Dodge website and dealership, it would have been just a little too pricey to get leather, since only the upper trim levels seem to have it as an option. AWD would be great, but also pricey.
3. We have gotten rave reviews about the magic seat from friends who love and use it every day.
4. I agree with reviews that 2002 model has addressed some deficiencies that were important to me, such as leather and side airbags.

Plusses for the T&C, in order of importance:
1. I am 6'10", and the driver seat in a Limited I sat in was just spectacular. I thought I was in a La-Z-Boy.
2. I know many people cringe at the suggestion of a minivan being attractive, but the T&C is the looker of the class, to my eye. I love the exterior (something about those lower "gills" that the GC lacks) and the colors I've seen.
3. Lots of features. For about $35000, you get the minivan version of a Mercedes E class.
4. After making our decision, I definitely don't consider T&C owners naive about quality. If we were willing to spend a few thousand more, it would have come down to Ody and a nicely equipped T&C (and probably the Acura MDX).
5. The local dealer has a very nice salesman (Steve Satterwhite at Elkins in Durham, NC) who has helped us with car seats several times. I almost wanted to buy from him just to pay him back.
6. The comments re: road noise are concerning, we will just have to see if it becomes annoying. My '88 Civic sure is loud inside, but also old and runs great. My solution was to install a high-powered Kenwood stereo and speakers nyuck nyuck.

I'd love to hear from T&C owners about prices they paid to get leather, either aftermarket or factory. Thanks to all informative posters of Edmunds, this website is GREATER than sliced bread!

tj_610 · January 2002

I called many Honda dealers throughout NC, covering local places and areas we frequently travel. We were told late Jaunary for a Silver EX-L, no nav or DVD. at Greensboro. The salesman told me that Silver was the most in-demand color (reiterated by a few other dealers), but someone had reserved this one and then decided to wait for one with DVD. Silver was one of three acceptable colors to us - GG and white the others.

Some other larger dealers had some unclaimed EX's coming in the next few weeks. Hickory, NC actually reported SIX unclaimed EX's, one with leather, arriving over the next six weeks. Incredibly, two of these were red, which I have never seen in person despite our city being chock full of Ody's. Two dealers I called, Cary and Sanford, had unclaimed GG EX cloth sitting on lot. Both would add leather, but one quoted a price greater than the difference in MSRP for EX-L, and the other couldn't say how long it would take since their leather installation is contracted to someone in Fayeteville.

vinceburlapp · January 2002

There's a picture of it at:

http://www.thehollywoodextra.com

Just go down to tlhe link: "vince's car page"

brucevr · January 2002

Yes, teenagers can do nice things, but why is he hanging around on these "van" pages? Strange lad. Anyone who really thinks that a Dodge or CRYsler is a better purchase than a Toyota or Honda needs what us GEEZERS call "life experience." I bought a FIAT at 16 (new) and believe me, I defended them until after my third transmission (out of warrenty! ouch!). Japanese engineered cars are GREAT, look at their resale. As an Economist, I know people act "rationally" and this phenomenon is no fluke. People act in there own best interest.

As a current Previa owner (93), I'm looking for a new mini-van and only Honda and TOyota would get my business. Honda will get the nod due to the size and I'm in no hurry so the wait is not an issue. MSRP isn't a problem when the car should sticker much higher... I've had ONE problem in 9 years! The rear dome light went out, never bothered fixing it cause I never went near a dealer! I can only hope the Ody will be even close!

Move on youngster and do something productive at 16! You Ody buyers are wise (as if you need this fourm to tell you that), these Odys are nice.

Regards,
Bruce

phkck · January 2002

I guess I qualify as having life experience (over 16, job etc, etc), and I would tell you to buy a Dodge or Chrysler. IF, it fit your needs. We have a T&C Limited we truly enjoy. Also, have an Acura in the garage, and I agree Honda makes great products.
But, for our needs the T&C was what fit our family. So, I really think a Dodge or Chrysler is a better purchase.

eneth · January 2002

Everyone is entitled to express their opinion - there should be no age restrictions, no experience restrictions - and ideally, no off-topic criticism of opinions. It doesn't matter if you're 16 or 116.

4aodge · January 2002

dave210 · January 2002

One thing I've noticed is that many Odyssey owners get defensive and say the only reason Chrysler is selling so many models is because they have rebates going on them. Well, there may be some sort of incentive to go with the Chrysler versus a Honda on the lower priced models, such as being able to get a DGC Sport for $22,500, but the higher end models, I'd have to differ.

Honda has the middle market bar none. There may be the DGC EX and T&C EX with it's power trunk lid, but for the same price, you get the magic seat and dual zone automatic temperature control on the Odyssey EX. So if I was looking for a minivan with just the middle basics, I'd go for an Odyssey, no doubt about it, even if it meant sacrificing the nifty trip computer (because the auto temp control is the deal breaker IMO)

Yet, until Honda ups the luxury content or adds an Acura van, I'll stick with my T&C Limited. It has dual power seats, tri-zone automatic temperature control, BOTH heated front seats, memory driver's seat, mirrors, and radio presets, not to mention the great stereo, automatic dimming driver's outside and inside rear view mirror, trip computer with compass and temperature readout included, 4 disc CD changer and power trunk.

For the people who want space and luxury, the higher end T&C's beat out the Odyssey, and usually cost more or close to a totally loaded Odyssey, with or without the rebates.

Chrysler can load on all the rebates they want, but on the higher end models, people still choose Chrysler even when an Odyssey would be cheaper and a better short term investment.

They may have $1,500 rebates, but that still only brings the price down to $32,300 on a Limited at invoice. So it can't just be the rebates selling the cars, because people are obviously justifying the higher price and possibly (if they know about it) lower resale. The rebates are more so bringing the attention of the consumer to the Chrysler dealers, but once the consumer is at the lot and looking at $37,000 T&C Limited's, I'm sure they still realize that the rebates aren't going to substantially affect the price to make it lower than an Odyssey EX-L.

4aodge · January 2002

I was thinking the same thing myself yesterday when I was sitting in a new 2002 Town & Country Limited at our local dealership while I was waiting for the regular matinence to be finished on our 2001 PT Cruiser. In terms of luxury, comfort, and convienence there is nothing currently on the market that can compare to a Town & Country. You can dress an Odyssey up real nice with leather and DVD system, but it still doesn't touch the luxury of a Town & Country.

The model I sat in yesterday was a Candy Apple Red (200+ dolar extra cost option) 2002 Limited All Wheel Drive with the 4 disc cd changer, towing package, DVD system, power everying, heated seats, load leveling suspension, auto climate controls, and head phones for the rear passengers. The quality of these new DC minvians is very impressive. The suede accents mounted on the seat back and door trims really add a nice look. Also, the door slam is exceptional which, in my opinion, says something about how solid these cars are made. My cousins 1999 Odyssey LX with 30k miles sounds like a bunch of pots and pans rolling down the steps when you shut their doors. However, I'm sure the new 2002 Odysseys have a much better fit and finish that the first ones to roll of the production lines.

Anyway, dave210 is correct about the Town & Country being in a class of it's own. As Chrysler has said, "we have created a segment within a segment with the Town & Country." I encourage anyone who is a non-believer or who hasn't sat inside a Town & Country Limited of any model year to take a visit to your local Chrysler dealership so you can see for youself. BTW, the dealer's asking price for the 2002 van I sat in was just over 41k dolars. That's hard to justify for a minivan, but you won't find the kind of luxury, comfort, and convienience features on any other minivan currently on the market, including the Odyssey.

Also, one safety feature the Town & Country has that others should borrow is their sliding doors. The DC minivans with power sliding doors will reverse if something obstructs their closing process instead of smashing whatever is in the way. This was another feature I was very impressed with.

-Adam

tj_610 · January 2002

As a soon-to-be Odyssey owner, I agree with the last few posts (see my message above #764). Again, if I was willing to spend more, the T&C decked out would be tough to pass up.

So let me ask more bluntly. Can anyone tell me if they got a T&C with leather - any trim level - for under $29,000? I'm not being cocky, see my post above, I fully acknowledge that the T&C is better equipped than the Ody EX-L. I seriously just want to know if it's possible to get in the ball park, since leather was important to us.

As for you, 4aodge, you whipper-snapper, as a former 16 y.o. who's now 35, I only have one thing to say......rock on, brotha! I've seen plenty of professed "grown ups" make less sense, have far worse spelling/grammar/typing skills, and behave like horse's backsides here and other websites.

Hey, dave210, both the front seats in the EX-L are heated! And the 6-CD in-dash changer is an option. As for all the other things you mentioned, well...er...hum...ah...*connection interrupted*

4aodge · January 2002

Thank you for the nice comments, tj 610. You are a credit to the many Odyssey owners who have and continue to post here in the Troll Hall at edmunds.com. It's very nice to have an Odyssey owner around here that doesn't freak out or go into Troll mode when someone points out the many comfort, convinience, and luxury features that can only be found on other vans, such as the Chrysler Town & Country.

As for your question regarding leather, it is a tricky one. My family and I have a 2000 Town & Country LX that has a "premium cloth" interior that we are very pleased with. However, when we bought our car back in September 2000 there was another LX model in the lot that had the very nice gray leather instead of the cloth, despite the fact that the LX model is not supposed to be equiped with the leather interior, at least for the 2000-2002 model years. That particular LX model with the leather interior probably had an MSRP of about 29k but would be very hard to come across today as Chrysler has "wattered down" the Town & Country LX model of the years, especially in 2002.

As for finding a 2001 or 2002 DC minivan with leather for under 29k, that's even more tricky. However, I have read other post here about some buyers getting a Town & Country Limited for under 30k when all is said and done. If those stories are true, you cannot beat a deal like that. Not only would the Limited have leather but it would also come with the suede accents and other nice features as well. Also, you could try equiping a Town & Country LXi with leather and see if you could squeeze that into the 29k dolar price range. I do not think you can get a leather interior or on the Dodge Caravan unless you go with the ES which will cost at or above 30k.

I hope this helps, tj 610. Thanks once again for the encouraging comments. Please tell us about your nice new 2002 Odyssey when it arrives.

-Adam

phkck · January 2002

That is the lowest price I have seen, but for a new 2001.
2002 and you are at about $32,000.

dave210 · January 2002

For some reason, I was under the impression that only the driver's seat was heated.

I remember seeing a post where someone asked if the Odyssey had two heated seats and someone responded in saying it only had two 'settings' (high/low) for the one heated driver's seat.

I suppose I should have researched my facts before quoting someone on the net :-) Thanks for the correction.

Oh by the way, at Car Max, you can get brand new 2002 T&C Limited's for around $31,600 including the $1,500 rebate. And the 2001's are around $28-$29,000. But they are already almost 1 1/2 years old.

tj_610 · January 2002

I appreciate all these posts. The price gap is not as great as I expected then. I agree with carleton1 that weather can make leather a bit less comfortable in a car than in your den. I do wish minivans would follow the lead of luxury vehicles - even SUV's like Lincoln Navigator - and have heated AND cooled leather seats. Something tells me the 2003 T&C will have it first.....Anyway, we got leather not only for the feel and a bit of a splurge (I previously never considered leather for anything but something like a Mercedes or BMW), but also for ease of cleanups. Our 13 month old is beginning to insist on controlling his own food and drink!

tj_610 · January 2002

Hey, I just read your user profile, carleton1. I had no idea the Vatican had such unpredictable weather! LOL

tj_610 · January 2002

Using Edmunds New Vehicle Pricing calculator, I just equipped a T&C LXi FWD 3.3L to be similar to the Odyssey EX-L. I added the CD/cassette with rear audio, electronics convienence group, leather, removable center console (Ody console slides), roof rack, security alarm, side airbags, steering wheel mounted stereo controls, and traction control. I even skipped options I would definitely get, like full-sized spare, because Ody doesn't have it. Also, the Ody has a 3.5L engine. I went with 3.3 instead of 3.8 to get as close as possible in price. There may be mismatched features that only Ody or T&C have, but this is as close a guesstimate as I could get without poring over brochures side-by-side. Here's the numbers:
Invoice: $30,078
Retail: $32,815
TMV: $30,381
So, if the $1500 rebate would apply to this model, it may be possible to get in the ballpark of the Ody EX-L MSRP of $28,690 (inc. destination).

I apologize for three straight posts. I work in central NC, and the ice/snow are still creating very slow work days.

sweingast · January 2002

Hi Guys-

I am looking at purchasing a T&C or an Ody EX-L as soon as possible. I donated my car to charity (Cancer Research) and the charity needs to pick it up next week. I was looking at the Olds. My wife liked the features and I liked the price, but after the crash testing stats, no amount of money can let me risk my family.

So I am pricing an EX-L at $28,700 (MSRP) to the least expensive T&C LXI with leather I can find which is about $33,100 (invoice) but prior to any rebates. I want to add the best 7/100 warranty. The EX-L is $900 with a $50 deductible. The T&C was $1,200 with a $100 deductible. I am told the T&C price goes upto $1600 if the powertrain special is not extended.

Now the EX-L is very well equiped, but the T&C comes with that electric convenance package and the rear audio. I would not have added those items for the $600 cost but I will use them. The magic seat is nice, but the auto hatchdoor and the cargo tray is an even swap.

I don't know about the '01 Ody, but the '02 Ody with its new engine and trany at 240 hp feels as good (not better or worst) than the T&C with the bigger engine (215 hp?).

So the question is price, availability and quality. Is there a reason the Chyrsler warranty is more? Is because of added profit or the amount of times it will be used. I don't want to wait three weeks for the EX-L if two of those weeks will be in a rental.

If Chysler does not reup the incentives, the cost difference is $5,000. This is not realistic, but I think the new incentives are going to be less not more. If so, does anyone know where I can but an EX-L at MSRP without waiting 3 three weeks within 200 miles of Washington DC?

dmathews3 · January 2002

Don't know about the DC warranty but you can pick up the Honda 7/100K/0 deduct for about 895 here on the edmunds site. There are a number of dealers here who go that price. Don't know if DC does that here or not.

dave210 · January 2002

This is just my opinion, but I don't think the rebates will get smaller. If anything, they'll get bigger. It's not like the T&C is selling any better than it did before. In the past, I can't recall Chrysler downsizing the rebates. The reason they're there is to move the vans off the lot. Lowering them would be stupid on Chrysler's part. On the 2001 models, they carried a $1,500 rebates, THEN a $2,000, and now a $3,000. I'm guessing they'll either stay the same or get larger.

dchopp · January 2002

Chrysler offers 7 year 100000 mile warranty free of charge on all their 2002 products.
DCH

phkck · January 2002

We have a 2002 T&C warranty, but the 7/100 only covers powertrain. You have to upgrade to the bumper to bumper. We wanted to make sure that things like the power lift gate and sliding doors were covered so we upgraded.
Honda's B/B warranty is cheaper for 7/100 than our upgrade.
FWIW Paul

dchopp · January 2002

On my two recent trips to Las Vegas , I rented two different D/C Sports. One came with power doors and one with out. I found the power doors are to slow and the nonpower doors closed on their own with a flip of a latch. I like the idea of being able to close them at the speed I want and no expensive motors to replace. I had no trouble opening the tailgate either.
Just my 2 cents--DCH

carleton1 · January 2002

We do NOT want power sliding doors or power liftgate. That is why we would get either the Odyssey LX, or the GC / T&C eL.
Cast wheels look nice but we would prefer to keep the $$$ and get the nice wheel covers instead.

stever · January 2002

Jan 15th: Imports vs. Domestics: Is there a quality gap?

dchopp · January 2002

Hello again Carleton. I remember you back in 1999 anxiously waiting
The arrival of your Odyssey when all of a sudden you bid everyone goodbye and announced you just bought a Dodge Caravan. I had a 2000 Odyssey on order for 5 month
And when it got down to the last month, my wife announced she didnt want the van anymore. She wanted an SUV. It must be a womens thing. After renting a few vans, she liked them and told me, I can have the SUV and she wants a van. I always wanted the Odyssey, but after renting a few D.C., I am at the cross roads on what to buy. I read your comments on the 2002 Odyssey. I only wish Chrysler had that disappearing third seat.
That seat would come in handy as I travel across the U.S. visiting my kids. I would hate to leave it at home to make room for our entire luggage and then wish I had it when I arrived at my destination. I will have to take another look at the Chrysler Vans at the auto show next month. BTW my Suv and my Wife are up for sale.
DCH

jmnygaard · January 2002

Since the weather is keeping business slow, you might have the time to check out the latest news reports re: DC minivans catching fire. It seems there is an easy fix but Chrysler has been slow about doing the fixing. The Sienna has apparently also had a fire problem, although it hasn't been to quite the same extent as the DC minivans. No matter what people say to trash the Odyssey, no one has ever claimed they are fire traps.

carleton1 · January 2002

The Odyssey would be the logical choice and the Magic Seat would fit your needs. On the other hand, you can get extra space in the DC minivans by sliding the one piece rear seat forward and folding it flat or fold and tumble the 50/50 rear seat forward. However, you would not get as much total room for luggage keeping all seats in the DC as you will with the Odyssey.
Each van has advantages and either is a good choice.

4aodge · January 2002

I'm curious, when was the last time you saw a Chrysler, Dodge, or Plymouth minivan burst into flames?

dkrab · January 2002

My '91 Plymouth Grand Voyager with the 3.3L engine would certainly have "burst into flames" if I had not noticed the smell of gasoline. It was leaking fuel in EXACTLY the same location as described in the Detroit News article:

http://www.detnews.com/2001/autosconsumer/0112/16/a01-368263.htm

What really bothers me, I mean REALLY bothers me, is the fact that Chrylser is forced to recall only the 96-00 model years. Obviously, they have lied to the government by telling them the '95 and older vans are somehow different. The body is different, sure, but the drivetrain is THE SAME. Either the NHTSA is too understaffed or just too stupid to know better. Chrysler should be forced to recall ALL 3.3L and 3.8L, no matter how old. It's not just a simple defect, it is a safety risk. And it affects them ALL.

Chrysler is counting on it's customers to be so uninformed as to believe the '95 and older vans are not affected by this issue. THEY ARE! It's as if they want you to believe that the '96 vans were completely different from the ground up. I am truly insulted by that. It's not even a clever lie.

Sorry to get on my soapbox about this, but it really infuriates me that a car company would be willing to risk lives to save money, and at the same time insult it's own customers (I know, welcome to the real world). I know that most of them don't leak gas, but it is beyond question that they have a greater potential to leak than most other fuel rail designs. Chrysler has acknowledged this with their proposed fix. Come on, DaimlerChrysler, do the right thing by your past customers! Spend the money to foster goodwill. You will reap benefits later. If these companies (it isn't just DC) would just stop living quarter to quarter, maybe they would fair better against foreign competition.

Thanks for letting me vent.

wholigan · January 2002

Just wanted to let you all know how completely entertained I am by this discussion! I had been off the web for a couple of weeks and the SPOON comments were fabulous!

My daddy is bigger than yours! He He!

Everybody relax - its a discussion about a frickin car. In the scope of what is important in life, does it even matter?

dchopp · January 2002

Hi again. I plan to put that third seat to the test at the Autoshow. Then I will see if it fits my needs. I sure do like there looks. I also like the fact that I can put in the acc. that I want with out having to step up to another model and getting crap I don't want like power doors and climate control. Have you looked at all at the Ford Windstars?--DCH

carleton1 · January 2002

Our DC dealers never had any brochures to look at and I had not seen the Odyssey when we started looking seriously at minivans in January 1999. The GM FWD troika were unappealing, the Quest/Villager and Sienna a little too small, so we looked at Windstars which we liked very well except it was very difficult to get into 3rd seat.
We were negotiating a trade and the used car manager would not believe me when I told him our 91 Astro CL had never been in a wreck and we got it NEW. His arrogant attitude caused us to walk.
We had decided to get the Odyssey but with a 5 month waiting list we got a 99 GC SE instead. We have been very pleased with our GC but I feel we would have liked the Odyssey just as much.
We are going to look at all minivans side by side at the Annual Auto Show this month. It will be fun to sit in and compare all of them under one roof once more. We test drove a Kia Sedona and were favorably impressed with the power, the smooth quiet ride, and the entire van. However, the Sedona feels about the size of the short Caravan/Voyager, Sienna, Quest/Villager.

carleton1 · January 2002

Closely compared minivans again where all were under one roof.
DaimlerChrysler had the most variety with 4 T&C (LX, LXi, LXi AWD, Limited), Voyager eC, Caravan eC, and 4 Grand Caravan (eL, eX, Sport, and Sport AWD). Most brands were represented by only one model: Odyssey EX-RES, Sienna Symphony, Windstar SEL, Mazda MPV EX, Venture WB, Montana Extended Length 7 pass, Silhouette Premiere, Eurovan MV (camper), Quest ?, Villager ?. There were 2 Sedona: an LX and EX with leather.
Each minivan has nice features. Eurovan has by far the most interior volume while MPV, Quest, Villager, Sienna and Sedona felt the smallest with Voyager/Caravan almost as small.
For us it is a difficult decision between Odyssey LX or GC eL / T&C eL. The Odyssey has much more cargo space behind 3rd seat, the most powerful engine with 5 speed transmission and the Magic Seat. However, the GC / T&C eL have Triple Zone Temperature Control, complete overhead console with compass/outside temperature/Trip Computer, and the padded armrests on front doors.
I talked to the Honda salesman who took a customer on a test drive of the 2002 Odyssey EX-NAV-Lthr on December 29 just after we drove it. The customer has ordered a 2002 Odyssey EX and will be trading in his 2000 Odyssey EX. Used Odysseys are selling for as much as they did new.

dchopp · January 2002

Thanks for the info on the Vans. Somehow I wasn't surprised that you narrowed it down to the Odyssey and the T&C.Its my choice also. I will be driving to Cleveland, OH in March to attend their Auto Show.They have over 900,000 sq ft of space and about 1000 auto's on display. They feature the present and the future vehicles and I am looking forward to seeing the hybrid vehicles comming out in the near future.

pat84 · January 2002

I own a 99 Odyssey and have previously owned a 96 DC. I recently went on a business trip and was offered an 02 Ford Windstar at the same price I was quoted for a mid size car. I took the Windstar ( it was an SE) as I had never driven one before. It had 7 miles on it when I left the lot.
It is not even in the same league as the Odyssey or DC. The seats reminded me of my old 68 VW bug. They were firm, unpadded and rather cheap. The driver's seat could be electrically adjusted further from the steering wheel and pedals than either the ODY or DC. This may be an advantage for very tall drivers. The steering for such a new van was sloppy. It seemed to wander a bit in lanes. This was my biggest complaint. The brakes were progressive and had a good feel to them but weren't any thing outstanding as far as stopping the van. The acceleration and cruise control were quite good. It had a tire air pressure system that I had never experienced on another van. In general, it seemed that a lot of corners had been cut, giving an overall cheap impression.
I have rented a few newer DC short version vans and have been very favorably impressed by them. The Ford left me unimpressed.

shipo · January 2002

Hi gang,

I have been following this board for a few weeks now as my wife and I are about to trade in our 1998 GC Sport (3.8). I am spending the week here in Taipei and given the Japanese car centric nature of the car population I was surprised to see not so much as a single Odyssey here, however, in less than 24 hours, I have seen dozens of DC (short wheel base) vans. What gives, is the Odyssey just a U.S. only product?

Best Regards,
Shipo

dmathews3 · January 2002

Could they have been rental vans? DC sells lots of vehicles to the rental fleets, where as Honda sells none. One of the reasons why Honda vehicles have a higher resale.

pat84 · January 2002

The older pre-99 Odyssey is still made and sold abroad. It is a shorter version than the 99 Odyssey. The Honda Odyssey is called Le Grand in Japan.
But Carleton is right. The Ford Windstar was the only non DC van I ever saw for rent. All the other vans I 've rented have been the short DC version. I had the luck to get a Sport DC van in Denver last Summer .I even took it up Pike's Peak.

dmathews3 · January 2002

I know DC vans are the best selling but my guess is that most short wheel base DC vans go to rental fleets, that was why I answered it that way, not to get you wound up.

tomtomtom · January 2002

I was visiting Hong Kong a couple of months back. To my surprise, the Ody over there is still the 4 doors version and I think they do have the sliding doors version but it is called something else. Also, the minivan market over there is dominated by Toyota (great styling, I wish they bring that style to the US) and Honda. You will also see a few Meceredes' minivan from time to time (one ugly minivan!) but all vans are short wheel base (I guess people there don't carry plywood nor sofa). DC products is not being sold in Hong Kong.
Here is the link for the pic of the Toyota:
http://www.crown-motors.com/toyota/previa/intro.htm

Honda Odyssey vs Dodge/Chrysler minivans

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