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Comments
Thanks
I don’t understand something, you diesel guys all want to “throw the vehicle out” if your engine goes to heck
Post 264 “But if they need to do more work, you have to realize you can buy 300Ds pretty cheap, even very very nice ones for $3,000..”
Why are all you guys against overhauls? Seems to me you are rolling the dice buying something “very very nice” after the purchase who is to say you aren’t going to run into the same type of motor issue? a few years back I had a 190D, I had purchased it rather inexpensively. It was easy to 100k on the motor and when the time came to make a decision, had a mechanic tell me the same thing – throw it out. In that specific instance it probably was the right choice AC was forsaken and one of the windows didn’t work but if someone has the “right” vehicle it doesn’t add up
$3k for something “very very nice” that *might* be on it’s way out
or $5K for an overhaul
for the difference of $2k you KNOW what you’ll have under ya, a vehicle that could very well give ya another 150,000 mile it just doesn’t make sense to “chuck it” and start over
And it "could very well" give you another 150,000 miles. It also "could" lose the transmission next week.
It sounds like you have an honest mechanic!
I have to say that most 300D I see are running okay but really have lots and lots of deferred maintenance....it's the common problem of "cheap" cars---they usually fall into the hands of owners who can't afford to take care of them properly. I know exactly what it costs to do the proper maintenance on an old 300D...about $100 a month.
so my argument is that if you can find a used one that WAS taken care of properly, buy that instead of fixing up your old beater.
If you have a low mileage pristine 300D with a bad engine then by all means fix it; otherwise, why put a new engine in a car with dents, malfunctioning AC, two dead power windows, very old transmission or sagging suspension and squished seats?
RE: Cruise Control --- I really don't think I'd bother repairing this on an old diesel unless you live in very very FLAT terrain. If you do, then the chance it's the amplifier is probably 90%.
on a side note Any recommendations running B100?
want to do a valve adjustment very soon, I heard you need a special wrench, it that so? Are they only available through MB or are there other places to get them, are they spendy? While I have the valve cover off I wanted to check the chain for strech, how is this done? Thanks
Filthy engine means NO MAINTENANCE, and "one injector" sounds VERY scary indeed. And his explanation of the transmission or driveline noise is absurd.
Smells bad, everything you told us...really smells bad.
As for B100, this is a very strong solvent, so after the first tank of B100 you will have to change your two fuel filters at least one time, maybe two times.
Given the expense of B100 and the possible side effects, I'm not so sure you should do this. I decided against it but mostly for economic reasons. In my area, regular unleaded is .75 cents a gallon cheaper than B100, and that adds up to maybe $700-800 a year for me. I always liked the idea of processing restaurant oils, etc. but it's too much work for my lifestyle. I don't have the time to do what you have to do to use discarded cooking oils.
Kinda like the "Oh, the A/C just needs a charge"
I would run like a thief in the night...AWAY from that junker!
If someone wants to give him $3,000 cash he should grab the person by the ankles and not let go.
On that note, what would be a reasonable amount to pay for annual maintenance and repair on a car of this vintage? Thanks again.
Diesel Mercedes are going for some pretty high prices around here (Washington state). What do you think I should expect in annual maintenance and repairs on a 1980's era car?
Thanks again.
I've got my running shoes on. Thanks to everyone for the advice!
The only time I EVER see old diesels selling for a good stiff price is when they are pretty spectacular. 300Ds have two price structures. The cherry turbos driven by older owners with low miles sell for a pretty darn good price (as they should) and the beaters that sell for beer money. There's very little in between that you want to be looking at...occasionally you'll pick off a pretty decent old diesel in the $2,500 range (with a few needs but very sound) but more than likely the needed repairs cost more than the whole car. The non-turbos should be a lot cheaper, since their performance is rather marginal.
Good maintenance, which means all fluids, brakes, belts hoses, tires, filters but not gas and insurance and not MAJOR repairs (but including small repairs) should average out, over a few years, at around $100-125 a month. Some months it'll be less and some months more. I have spoken to people who claim that they run these cars for very little but when I look at the cars I know why instantly.
As for fuel costs, well, those are going to be higher than the average car...probably the same as for a gas car getting about 17 mpg.
But they are good, comfortable cars as long as you buy them in good condition and not with too high miles. Really any original 300D with 250,000 miles on it is getting pretty tired, but I have seen them run up to 350K with original drivetrains---but of course suspension, upholstery, etc. are not going to hold up that long.
Also it depends on what type of duty you put the car through. If you are just putting around town, which a diesel does best, even a tired car can run a long long time. If you are freeway commuting every day, an old diesel doesn't like this so much.
Sounds like you may have already found this out?
Thanks again for all the support....I'm sure I'll need more I find the next one!
Please share some advice on the turbo. What's the best approach? The reason I think its not working is it accelerates without that slight feeling of "boost" as the engine revs. Its as flat as my 300D with the A/C on. Is the Boost Pressure switch something to look into?
With the A/C I know this car does not have the A/C Servo Unit my '79 has. The previous owner said an A/C Shop said the Pushbutton control Unit was bad. Any feedback would be appreciated.
Well, there goes my free time for the next several months. (My wife says I'm a masochist!)
You got some real scary problems there pard.
When I bought my '79 300D I had some similar scary problems. A little persistence and a lot of patience go along way. I try to look at the problems as being basic in nature and some are easy to fix. Just cleaning electrical contacts, replacing vacuum hoses/fittings, lubricating moving parts, changing all fluids/filters, makes a world of difference.
I really enjoy the challenge as my project progresses. My '79 300D gave me a real sense of accomplishment as I worked on it. It now runs great, looks terrific, and is a joy to drive. My wife drives it everyday to work.
I take great care in picking out a car. I give it a 100% inspection and a good test drive. Understanding how the previous owner treated it is HUGELY important. A good engine and a sound tranny are the keys. Shopping for parts saves big bucks.
As always thanks for the feedback and I enjoy the forum.
You can also usually find climate control units on Ebay or through places like www.mercedesshop.com.
If you had vacuum leaks generally your engine would not shut off as I recall, as it bleeds the vacuum reservoir, but I'm not sure on your model whether the engine has that same vacuum shutoff mechanism as the earlier cars.
Thanks for any answers.
Sandra
Unless it's been converted to R134, that year would use R12 freon. If you don't want the expense of having it tested and repaired then my gut feeling is to have it recharged and see how it does. If it stops working real soon then you know it has a major leak and needs major repairs. If it keeps working then it's probably a minor leak and you can charge it from time to time as needed (but more than likely it will only get worse). R12 freon isn't cheap, you need a license to buy it legally.
Be aware that in many locations in the US it's illegal to recharge an R12 system that is KNOWN to be leaking. If you take it to a licensed shop then they will have to go through all the steps to insure that R12 isn't released into the atmosphere, which is where a lot of the cost comes in.
By the time I paid the tax & title and $1,000+ in these repairs, it has become too expensive to get rid of, and I'm hoping everything will let up and run problem-free for a year or so till I catch up. In hindsight, I wish I'd just bought a Ford pickup truck. My husband's has NEVER been in the shop in the 4 years we've been together. Between my old 300D and this one, I seem to always be needing a ride to/from work because the car is in the shop. I keep sayin' its cheaper than car payments, but maybe I am making some poor car choices just to have that 3-pointed star on the hood. I had the other car for 15 years.... I don't know any other vehicle that could have run for over 300,000 miles.
Back to freon, I have a shade tree mechanic who is damn good, so I can get around quite a few things that way. I just wish it didn't require that problematic R12 freon.
Sandra
You might start off by checking to see if your AC compressor clutch is even working. If it isn't, you can start with that problem as it is the primary cause of your troubles.
Now, it seems I had heard somewhere years ago that you have to have a/c running/working on a diesel engine or you''ll get big trouble after awhile. I kept telling them so whenever I saw the car, and next she was raising the hood to shut off the engine.(sheesh) I've got the gist of the problem from reading most of this site,lol, I couldn"t stand too much repair and would dread looking for the right mechanic (after dad, who could meet up!) Oh, and if I want to buy it, the bosses' husband will put a 'pulling lever thing" onto the starting-knob 'til it gets fixed. Hows that sound? Is this deal worth it? It is a beautiful car, I would love to get it, I just want to be able to get it right. ( I'm in socal)
I wasn't aware that diesels sold in California had any emission controls or requirements. Shifty, do you have any comments on that?
I believe it was $6 for the same 12 oz. Dupont R12 in Mexico. It is all tax in the US.
1992 300D Purchase: Well, look, if the car was in good mechanical and cosmetic condition it might be worth $6,500. So you have $4,500 worth of room here, which is pretty good.
I'm not a big fan of "Mickey-Mousing" these cars to get them to work. The climate control issue can be diagnosed and you can get an estimate....always think "worst case scenario"...be a complete and utter PESSIMIST when the buyer. The seller can afford to be an optimist, you can't.
As for the "starting problem", you weren't clear what that was about but if the mileage is very high on this car you may very well want to have a compression test or cylinder leakdown test done. Most Benz diesels don't start because of minor things like bad fuel or bad glow plugs (they do need replacement every few years) but sometimes they are just tired in the cylinder head region. Diesels rely purely on compression to ignite the fuel so if it's low the car isnt' going to start easily no matter what you do.
AC and diesel operation have no connection that I can recall, unless you mean that if you have a leak in the vacuum lines that control some AC systems, then yes, this vacuum leak can affect engine operation. But if your vacuum lines are tight, you can just throw away your rather fussy and marginally cold 300D AC system if you wish. Climate control problems are especially bad on the W123 models, gas or diesel. A common issue is that dirty coolant (a maintenance boo-boo) jams the valve on the servo that controls coolant flow. Another common problem is the loss of vacuum to the ducting (air flaps), and of course, the electronic issues associated with a bad control head in the dash. These systems really aren't very good and you will have to deal with them time and time again, so suck it up W123 owners and be of good cheer about it.
EMISSIONS -- yes, starting in 1985 Mercedes fitted diesels with a "trap oxidizer", which is upstream of the turbo and was meant to trap particulate matter in a ceramic shield---this particulate matter was theoretically burned off during hard acceleration. Unfortunately, the oxidizer on these cars usually either clogs and causes power loss and overheating, or worse, the mesh inside broke up and sent metal into the blades of your turbo (ouch!). The oxidizer got better for 1986 and 87 and then quit using it for obvious reasons.
So the problem cars with the oxidizer are:
US models: 1985 300D, 300CD, 300TD 300SD (California models, sold in western states of the USA); 1986 300SDL (again, California version) and the 1987 300D turbo, 300TD turbo and 300SDL (California AND federal versions).
You'd be advised to avoid these models or if you are having problems with one, this is no doubt why.
No there is no cure, you just keep replacing the defective part when it dies. I don't recall the replacement cost but I'd presume it is substantial given the labor involved.
As for climate control issues, you might be sure to flush your radiator coolant.
Other good things to do is always add a fuel additive when you fill up. Redline diesel fuel conditioner is a good product. Read the label and follow the instructions.
Let's see....if you have a Becker radio you can throw that over a fence, it won't last long.
But don't worry, the oxidizer could last quite a while. If you are in California that's a plus as you have fuel with a lower sulphur content.
Still, for some perverse reason, I like these cars. Not enough to go out and buy one but I do like them.
Some cars get this kind of "mythology" built around them, so when you actually bring out the true facts behind the myth, it makes it sound worse than it is. It's all relative. If a hyped-up Hollywood celebrity ends up selling shoes it's a tragedy, but if a drunk sobers up and sells shoes, it's a great thing.
All cars have faults and it's best to know them and with this knowledge you can anticipate them and work them out. If someone tells me "I just bought a 300D and the seller says all it needs is a recharge" well I know that if probably not true, because we are dealing with a chronic problem here.
I've learned that when a car's A/C isn't working, it's never "just a charge" that's needed. That freon had to go somewhere and that applies to ALL cars!
Well here is a success story that didn’t have anything to do with a “hospital” :0).
5 years ago I was Sunday driving in Gastonia NC and I happened across a 1984 Mercedes Benz 190D forsale so I stopped, checked it out and drove it, the guy was a car dealer selling the vehicle off a private lot. He seemed honest enough and had a whole list of things that he thought was wrong with the car. I went back the next morning unannounced because I wanted to verify that the vehicle started up ok and didn’t smoke, it did and it didn’t, I bought it for $2100. I drove it almost 80,000 miles (pur. OD reading was 194,000 and 270,000 +/- when I got rid of it.) and I probably could have gotten another 20,000 out of it. The week before I got rid of it I took it to an inexperienced non-diesel mechanic, he over filled the vehicle with oil, instead of blowing out any number of gaskets, it blew a huge spooge of oil straight into one, many or all of the cylinders that day will be forever known to me as “the day I shutdown the road”, Interstate 85 Concord exit looked like a white cloud all 6 lanes. I had the vehicle towed to back to my house outside of Charlotte. I called my buddy in Charleston SC and asked him if he wanted it for scrap (thinking I blew it up) he came up, tinkered with it a little and drove it home, 180 + miles. To this day he still runs it around town
When I was younger buying a vehicle with 100k on the motor was foolhardy at best and with very few exceptions Mercedes Benz Diesels being one of them. Now, not only is the reliability and dependability well known, but the environmentally freindy aspects are being highlighted and with biodiesel and B100 on the front pages, those old vehicles are drying up. People are buying the hell out of ‘em in the Northwest as can be testified to by the $3600 purchase price we had seen a few posts ago from where is it I come from, we call them treehuggers under our breath but watch fad after fad, turn trend into trend, turn commonplace into commonplace the old diesels are drying up here in NC as well diesel mechanics better be honing their skills...
But cheer up little Honda dood, there is hope for you yet if you are still not buying a MB, from the looks of things, one day you will be able to “get in the game”
“..Honda’s new Accord 2.2 i-CTDi Sport has this week set no fewer than 19 world speed records and achieved 3.07 litres / 100 km (92 mpg) fuel economy to boot. British racing driver Robin Liddell and freelance journalist Iain Robertson were part of the European record-setting team ”
Honda diesel set record
for the rest of us that don't want to wait around for a *concept* car, wondering if Honda "got it right"...the MB is the answer :0)
The big problem I have is the outrageous price of diesel. If it were priced where it should be...much less than gasoline, it would make a lot more sense!
Most old 300Ds I see are worn out pieces of junk and buyer beware is definitely the rule.
But if you find a well cared-for 300D or SD or TD, they can be great cars and quite reliable (mine was, after I fixed all the botched up things done by previous cheapskate owners). I'm sure mine is still running happily.
My point was this: Just because it's a 300D doesn't mean it's any good. It could be the biggest money pit you ever walked into if you aren't careful. People "bought the hell" out of tech stocks, too, some years ago, but it wasn't being smart, because they didn't know what they were buying, they were just following a mini-trend.
B100 is great, but it's expensive, so it's really a "feel-good" thing and in some ways quite noble----but it's not economical and therefore will not be any wave of any future until it makes sense in dollars AND cents. That's how new tech succeeds, in the realm of the user's checkbook. (see SOLAR energy as an example of this).
Right now, where I live, driving a 300D on biodiesel is the financial equivalent of driving a gas car getting 17 mpg. If it were a totally modern 2005 gas car, the emissions differences between it and a diesel running on B100 would be negligible, and perhaps the gas engine actually better. The area where the B100 car does best is that it is using a renewable energy source.
California doesn't even allow new diesel cars at the moment, but they should be back in a couple of years. I"m not sure how manufacturers are going to meet the Calif. standards. Low sulphur fuels will help, and possibly they will use urea injection to eliminate nox. Whether owners will refill their urea supply to keep the engines clean enough is a problem for the EPA.
You wanna jump on the B100 bandwagon? GREAT! GOOD FOR YOU! But have that old 300D checked out top to bottom and keep shopping, shopping, shopping.
4 out of 5 300Ds you see for sale will be beaters and not worth fixing. This is why when you shop for used parts in the wrecking yard, you will see LOTS of them.
The reason 300D prices are going up is because of supply and demand. The old ones are getting junked out, the beaters are on the road limping along, and finding a nice clean one is getting harder and harder.
Well we could go on all day about the political aspects of gas and oil prices and point fingers at just about any (if not all) of the Presidential Administrations over the past four decades. But you are correct the price of diesel "round these here parts" was at $1.35 not 4 years ago. The price held pretty constant even when the fluctuations of regular unleaded drove the price per gallon to $2.00+.
"..B100 is great, but it's expensive, so it's really a "feel-good" thing and in some ways quite noble----but it's not economical and therefore will not be any wave of any future until it makes sense in dollars AND cents.."
I think what we are currently seeing is artificial manipulation to bring the cost of petroleum diesel comparatively equal to the cost of the latest and greatest technologies. Or maybe we are seeing the governmental subsidies being removed to bring the cost of fuel to where it should really be based on economic growth over the past decades. In either event after taking the advice of Mr_ShiftRight (Thanks!), this week I filled my tank with B20 biodiesel blended fuel ($2.19p/g) , I am unprepared to run a B100 as it will probably blow "gunk" into my fuel filters ...I'll need to figure out how to change them out in short order...and I need to replace hoses, seals and o-rings with viton. It is my understanding that this has to happen to any vehicle pre '93.Some people are claiming B100 for 70 cents a gallon although I think it might be pretty far fetched and alot of work...
Taking into consideration that many warranties on new diesel vehicles (more specifically VW) are void if you run blended fuels greater than B5 (please see owners manual if you drive one), older model diesels are probably the right way to go...
The Benz Diesel is a tough car to beat and of course the story of my 190d is only one story, as requested - a success story, but show me a 1984 vehicle that'd go 200,000 + miles? It can be done but on a VERY limited basis...
I like my '92 300D and after I get some of the quirks addressed, the black smoke when the turbo kicks in is my biggest concern but I found out today high heat and black smoke appear to be a problem while running the AC as well :0/...I am sure I will love it. I have scheduled an appointment for next week... unless you own the tools and have the time, the most dreaded part of owning an MB (or any import really).... is the "appointment" ... :0)
No reason why you can't get many years of use out of it but 340,000 miles is quite unrealistic unless you're planning to sink a lot more money into it. Another 100K is more in keeping with the fat part of the bell curve. A 340K car is like a 100 year old man...it happens, but not very often and the odds definitely aren't with you. Get those numbers out of your head and lower your sights to the achievable is my advice.
"dependable" is a strange word these days. Most new cars are more dependable than old ones because very weird stuff happens when you crank over 200K on a car---stuff that engineers never planned for---like metal fatigue and stresses from 20 years of constant pounding.
You must remember that the 300D earned its reputation for dependability in the 1980s, when most other cars were really second rate. There was no Lexus and 10 year warranties were unheard of then.