Honda Civic Hybrid

crv16 · May 2004

I have the extended warranty and a booklet that requires oil changes every 5000 miles that has to be stamped at the Honda dealer to keep the warranty in effect

That's completely wrong. The dealer cannot force you to have service completed at the dealer in order to maintain warranty coverage. In addition, the 5,000/10,000 interval is based on severe/normal conditions.

Also was warned about going to quick change lube places because of a special gasket on the oil filter that only the Honda dealer carries and could void the warranty if not changed each time.

I'm sure your Honda salesperson told you this, right? The only gasket that is on the oil filter is one that is built right in. It's not an additional one that only the dealer carries. Complete hogwash. You may be confusing it with the the aluminum crush washer that seals the drain bolt. Honda dealers like to sell those crush washers. I've owned 7 Hondas over the past 17 years (1/2 million cumulative miles, 100+ oil changes), and have changed my own oil on each of them. I've NEVER replaced the crush washer, and never had any leaks.

midnightcowboy · May 2004

>I manually check the mileage at
>each fill up and the readout has
>been plus/minus .02 mpg every time

This is even more hilarious. You can only be accurate to a certain significant number of digits ; it doesn't matter how many decimal place you divide 2 numbers.

"To be accurate to +/- .02 mpg" Let's look at what that really means.

Let's assume you are getting 40.00 miles per gallon and you put in exactly 10.000 gallons and went exactly 400.0 miles ( most odometers are only accurate to tenths) Let's assume tha the odometer is accurate and that you travelled exactly 400.0 miles, How much variance in gallons does it take to get either 40.02 miles per gallon or 39.98 miles per gallon

39.98 = 10.0050025 gallons + .0050025 gallons
40.00 = 10.000 gallons
40.02 = 9.9950025 gallons - .0049975 gallons

This means you can exactly fill you car to the same capacity within -.0049975 to +.005025 gallons everytime you fillup.

If so, you are truly amazing and the only person capable of that. Congratulations.

Thanks for the Laugh!!!!!

badgerfan · May 2004

Budd must have found one excellent gas pump too, to be able to read all the way down to three digits to the right of the decimal point to get that fine a resolution on his fuel used per fillup!

Just goes to show you shouldn't believe all you read.

budd · May 2004

I just got back from the Honda dealer to pick up my plates. I checked on getting fog lights for my HCH in the parts dept. They are $435.00 for the lights and $15.00 for the dash switch. Didn't check on how much installation would be as I thought that was a little high. Maybe later.

gagrice · May 2004

You pose an interesting scenario. I agree the Insight is about $8000 more than the Corolla CE. Especially if dealers are gouging because of short supply. You can take that $8000 and buy 3200 gallons of unleaded @ $2.50 per gallon. If you average 35 mpg you can go 112,000 miles before you reach the price of the Insight. I personally have never owned a car that long. I don't have a long commute either. Now you take in to consideration the Hybrids I inquired about, they require Premium Unleaded gas. That is about $.40 per gallon more in CA. Where is the savings on the hybrid? I still lean toward getting the Diesel fuel in the USA up to speed and using modern diesel designs. The Accord diesel has me excited. Great performance and 60 MPG.

gagrice · May 2004

I agree with you that the Honda Civic is much closer to the Corolla in price. Midnight Cowboy made reference to the Honda Insight being $8000 more than the Corolla CE. I just want people that read this forum realize that there are down sides to the Hybrids. They are not economical on very short drives to and from the store etc. Where the other little vehicles will get the same around town mileage for 4 miles or 40. Who knows I may even buy one of the Civic hybrids. I have steered clear of Honda since I had a lot of trouble with a 1979 Accord. Hopefully they have made some realiability advances since then.

stevedebi · May 2004

Hey, doesn't the Civic Hybrid have a different engine than the Normal Civic? If so, it may not have the 10K changes, which were introduced with the 2002 Civic 1.7L engine.

gagrice · May 2004

I think you are adding to the confusion. First off I did not see anyone referring to a totally decked out Corolla CE. Base price for a cheapy commuter is about $14,300. Base for the Insight on the Honda website is $21,800. That is $7500 not $8000. It is not $1488 as you claim. To the off subject of the Honda Accord Diesel. The tests were run and I will give you the link. This is not the firste efficient diesel vehicle that was not allowed onto our shores. This holdup by whoever has gone on for decades. I have pictures of a 1998 Ford Ranger diesel that drove from the tip of So. America to Prudhoe Bay Alaska and averaged 45 mpg. I would buy one of them in a minute if brought into this country.

gagrice · May 2004

I'm not sure where you will get an HCH for $19k. I just talked to the dealer here in San Diego and he quoted me $21,800 plus tax & license, and a waiting list. The point is if you are interested in the bottom dollar for transportation the hybrids may not be your Cheapest way to go. For me I drive an LS400 Lexus and a Chevy Suburban which I am more than happy with. I only have 45,000 miles on the Suburban in 6 years and it is worth the few extra dollars for gas to have the added room and comfort. Most of the people on this forum are interested in the best bang for their hard earned dollar. I just feel that the diesel engine has been given a bum rap in this country. I don't believe the hybrid is the only alternative to energy conservation.

gagrice · May 2004

As far as the Corolla goes I was commenting to MidnightCowboy who had made the comparison between the Corolla CE and the Honda Insight. Personally I would not have either car. I became interested in the Hybrids when they first hit the shore and no one would buy them. My Toyota dealer in El Cajon, CA had his first one for several months. I test drove it twice. Once alone then brought my wife to try it. I think the concept is great. I had some issues with it that were mostly answered by the 8 year 100,000 mile B to B warranty. With the good warranty gone, the issues are back. My wife hated the looks which has never changed in her mind. We mainly use our vehicles for trips. The Lexus on shorter trips the Suburban on the long trips. The Hybrid was going to be for running to the store, bank, theater etc. We are not high mileage drivers. The Lexus is a 1990 LS400 with 71,000 miles always garaged. And it still gets 26 mpg going to Palm Springs & Vegas. What's not to like about that?

gagrice · May 2004

As for the price of the Honda Civic Hybrid. This morning the salesman at El Cajon Honda told me on the phone they were selling for $21,800 and you put your name on the list. They do not have any for a demo. That would be the day I bought any vehicle without a test drive. I can afford to sit back and let the smoke clear if it takes a few years even. Meanwhile I have the forum to entertain me. By the way the Insight may be the ugliest car since the French Citroen.

rfruth · May 2004

If a sales critter wants to sell a car above MSRP with no test drive, run don't walk away.

gagrice · May 2004

I guess that is why I have always bought my vehicles used or in Oregon, Idaho & Washington. I cannot deal with dealers that feel they are in control of the market.

midnightcowboy · May 2004

I was only suggesting that a FCD in a performance car is an oxymoron.

Toyota cost with current $1,000 rebate in Houston is apparently much less than Atlanta. Cost was $12,876 plus TTL. The Prius is an odd duck. It is not really an economy car because it has some luxury features. But it is by no means a luxury or even a near luxury car. As you and others have stated the main reason to buy a Prius is economy or at least the high miles per gallon 60/51 rating. However, when you look at Total Cost of Ownership (TCO) there are much more economical cars and the Toyota Corolla CE 5-speed is wone at 32/40 mpg rating. Another, although less reliable is a Golf TDI GL 5-speed.
However, that raises the price to $16,700.

I am glad you are happy with your HCH It is a good car but most are going for around $18-19K and most HCH owners are reporting only about 37 mpg , much less the the EPA numbers.

You are getting better mpg , but you also said you you weanied out and started driving like a little old lady and added some 10-15 minutes each way to your 40 mile commute and now you stay in the right lane. Hey man if Mpg is goal, go for it!. But the fact is the Corolla CE 5-speed has a much better TCO than either your HCH or a Prius.

YMMV,

As Paul Harvey says "Have a good day"

MidCow.

midnightcowboy · May 2004

Budd,

(#651) First Misterme states the mileage was plus or minus two gallons for actual which is a large margin of error. Never did get a response from Misterme ???

(#654) Then you state plus or minus two hundredths (.02) every time you measure.

You called us [non-permissible content removed] and jerks, but it was because you made a mistake 0.2 is two tenths. You were corresponding to post #651 and stating an incorrect accuracy.

You made a mistake and when you make a mistake you should admit it or not respond at all, instead of calling people names.

You are forgiven and all is well. I am glad you are enjoying our HCH.

Only 21 mpg YMMV,

MidCow

badgerfan · May 2004

If you post data, proof read your posts before insulting us for criticizing your statements. A .02 accuracy is much different than a .2 accuracy.

Additionally, you first quoted a 70 mpg mileage in 100 miles driven, down to more believable 44-47 in your later post. Did you measure your 70 mpg going down hill in the Rockies with a 50 mph tail wind or was it being towed by another vehicle?

Hybrids may be the greatest thing since sliced bread, but no need to misrepresent their efficiency.

Sylvia · May 2004

No personal attacks, no antagonizing posts. If they continue, messages will be removed.

midnightcowboy · May 2004

You are right I meant to say 2 miles per gallon, not 2 gallons. The discussion was around 2 mpg and .2 mpg and .02 mpg. This was a typo mistake, didn't mean to confuse. Mea Culpa.

Corolla CE - Last weeks paper in Houston actual pricing:
Fred Haas Toyota- Auto $12,988, Manual $12,588
Don McGill Toyota - $11,988
Champion Toyota - $12,299
Joe Myers Toyota -$11,990.

It is funny you mention Mike Calvert Toyota, friendly ads and radio blurps. When you get there it is a pressure cooker for closing sales. Al the managers are in a glass raised enclosure, which can be seen from each saleman's office. I am sure Mike Calvert Toyota would sell a Corolla for $13,120 ( $14,120-$1,000) or even more if they could. Maybe that one Prius buyer who paid $2,500 over MSRP and felt good about it would pay $16,620 who knows?

Current HCH pricing is around $18,239 for a 5-speed. Apparently you have gotten much better pricing HCH pricing where you live.

Anyway I am not sure how comparing the TCO of a HCH to a Corolla ever drifted to a Motorcycle. Oh well ?? If you get a new basic Harley Davidson Softail they run about about $14K

The reason I mentioned the Corolla is that it has Toyota quality and really is a very solid and good car in the economy class. Probably the Corolla is best followed by the Honda Civic. Maybe visa versa. Anyway Toyota and Honda are very quality cars. That is why I mentioned TCO. Becuase they seem like a better alternative than paying 20K-27K for a Prius, even though the Prius has somewhat better mileage and some luxury features. However, it makes you wonder why all Corolla have DRL and all but the base CE models of Corolla has seats that adjust more than just back and forth.

As for you comments about about changing your driving habits this is exactly what you said in message #647 "...it is more efficient to maintain about 54MPH.
I drive 35-52 in a 45 limit(average about 48MPH), 42-62 in 55(55 Avg), 52-65 in 65(Avg about 58) and avoid 70 limits if possible."
and "I've learned my driving techniques from the Insight pilots and they apply the same to all their vehicles and I understand they significantly beat EPA on all of them.
I drive for point A to point B like everyone else. But it is MORE than that, I play a game of it. This game adds about 10 minutes to my 45 mile commute."

In summary you avoid 70 mph highways, you like to average around 54 mph on the highway and you have increased your 45 mile commute by 10 minutes. Okay ,maybe I extrapolated and inferred too much about your new slower driving style.

YMMV,

"Have a Good Day"

MidCow

midnightcowboy · May 2004

>My last few posts are links to 2 dealerships >that clearly show MSRP is on these cars.
>Verifiable facts can not be disputed.

Except that Corollas are selling several thousand below MSRP, so what does MSRP mean ,ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

Yes the HCH is a good car but you are talking anywhere from $4,000 to $6,500 more.

I think a Corolla compares with a Civic. I don't think ,I am sure you don't either, the Echo is in the hunt.

Just a different driving style,
MidCow

Sylvia · May 2004

A newspaper reporter is looking to interview owners of hybrid vehicles who live in the midwest. Bonus points awarded to Michiganders who drive hybrids and respond to this query. Please send daytime contact info and a line about your vehicle choice to jfallon@edmunds.com by Friday, May 21, 2004.
Thanks,
Jeannine Fallon
PR Director
Edmunds.com

hch2004 · May 2004

Hybrid owners do not just by the car because of some perceived savings over other small cars.

No matter how much cheaper any car is vs. my HCH, unless it is a special fuel car, it ain't getting me in the HOV lanes. You can't put a price on that. And if you could, my time is worth way more than 8, 10, or 12 thousand bucks.

Whether it is because it's green (or to flame "we love our country and environment and you don't"), it's cool ("i've got the latest technology and you don't"), it's built well ("american cars are pieces of ...."), or a combination of the above, it is more than just price.

btw, I have found my dash mpg indicator to be relatively accurate. I usually get arounf 40 mpg and it is not signifcantly more or less than that when I do the math myself. I don't drive 35 on the highway, and I only hope the mpg gets better as the car ages as some have suggested.

any thoughts on whether it matters "where you live" (hilly vs. flat, humid vs. dry, etc.)?

wrl56 · May 2004

I just bought a 2004 HCH and only get 38 mpg ... rather miffed at being 10 miles off to the EPA's rating of 48 city-47 hwy. In Arkansans we are hilly but not extremely mountainous like Colorado. Also humid.

I'm about to go to the dealership to complain, but is this normal to be 10 mpg of the EPA's rating?

john1701a · May 2004

The EPA values are nothing but estimates for the sake of vehicle comparison, no promise of performance in any way.

Look closely at your window sticker. The Prius one specifically says (sorry, I don't have a HCH sample available), "Actual Mileage will vary with options, driving conditions, driving habits, and the vehicle's condition. Results reported to EPA indicate that the majority of vehicles with these estimates will achieve between 51 and 69 mpg in the city and between 43 and 59 on the highway."

JOHN

bamacar · May 2004

Yes, from the majority of people on these boards, it appears the Hybrids rarely get what the EPA estimates. Many other cars, on the other hand, have no problem reaching the EPA estimates. No guarantees for performance, but the numbers are less relevant for the Hybrids.

midnightcowboy · May 2004

The car that doesn't make the EPA estimates is the Prius. The EPA testing is out of date with lots of stop-n-go and an average highway speed of only 48 mpg. The EPA test favors the full hybrid setup of the Prius, but many peoepl are only achieving the low 40s on Mpg. There has been a lot of discussion that the Prius mileage is based on winter resilts, which are usually 10 mpg lower, but there have also been some Californians that report only mid-40s.

Another factor is that many of these people seem to change their driving habits and drive much slower when they get a Prius just to see how high of mileage they can get. Supposedly one person drove an average speed of 35.8 miles per hour fro some 900 miles so they could acheive a screenshot of miles per gallon in the 80s. However this is more Ripley's Believe-It-or-Not than real world.

Most Honda HCH owners get close the the EPA estimates. The "mild" hybrid, in which the ICE is need all the time and the el;ectic motor assist when needed seems to have much better milage characterisitics on the highway. It is rare that a HCH owner only gets 28 mpg. It could be terrain and driving habits, but it sounds like something is wrong with the car.

YMMV,
MidCow

hybriddriver · May 2004

Try resetting the trip odometer. That will also reset your fuel consumption display. See if the mpg improves after that. It might be that someone driving the car before you bought it, just drove it uneconomically. When I first bought my 2004 HCH CVT at the end of last year I drove it fast to see if it was up to my performance standards. I was getting around 40 mpg going fast. By fast I mean 70s and 80s on the highway. After I was satisfied with my own performance testing I tried going slow in granny mode to see if the car would get the EPA ratings. Going no faster than 65. The best I could get on the FCD was 46 and 45 at the pump. So I decided to just mostly go fast and try to keep my FCD at 42. Funny thing happened this week. I decided to try going slow again and to my amazement I am now showing 49 on my FCD. I guess my at the pump calculation will be about 48. This must be because I now have about 13,500 mile on the car and the engine is finally broken in. I will continue to experiment to see if this new driving style is acceptable. I will probably end up with a happy compromise of high mpg driving and fast driving when I need or feel like it. It is neat watching that horizontal meter and trying to keep it to the right. It takes some time to learn how to keep that meter to the right. After a while it is like playing a game. One tip for the HCH is that full throttle acceleration at low RPMs is actually good because it maximizes the electric motor assist and minimizes engine pumping loss. This makes for more fun driving! Hilly terrain does have an affect, but usually the mpg goes down going up the hill and then you get it back coming down. I think I read somewhere that humidity has an affect too, but I'm not sure. I wish you luck with your new car.

likramer · May 2004

Hi everyone,

I am wondering whether any of you can post the price you paid for honda civic hybrid if you bought the car in the past month or so. I got a price quote 3-4 months ago from a dealership and it was $17,700 for manual transmission and $18,600 for CVT. The dealer told me the price now has increated to 19K-20K for out of the door price due to high demand.

I would like to see what other people have paid.

Thanks a lot,
Li

markn · May 2004

Just purchased my Civic Hybrid, CVT last week. There is a waiting list here in San Diego, but I badly needed one and bought one in transit. Ended paying mark-up, so out the door price was $22,000. I have been VERY happy with the car so far. I have about 250 miles on it and am getting about 44 mpg. I am driving the car a quite a bit more carefully than my Porsche, but it is not too hard to realize a lot better mileage than the Landcruiser that it replaced!!

Sylvia · June 2004

A newspaper reporter is interested in hearing from hybrid drivers in New England. If you are willing to share your story, please respond to jfallon@edmunds.com with your daytime contact information no later than Thursday, June 10, 2004.
Thanks,
Jeannine Fallon
PR Director
Edmunds.com

solar_dad · June 2004

This is exactly my experience here in Southern California. Internet quotes were in the $18.8K range until May, when they started approaching sticker due to demand. I bought a CVT on May 15 for $20.4K.

Mike

graphicguy · June 2004

I'm not sure I want to open this can of worms again, but.....

I had a 5 year old Civic VP. Due to an accident, it was totaled (other guys fault). Over the last 5 years, it averaged 38 MPG highway and 29 MPG city. For argument's sake, let's say it averaged 35 MPG for all driving.

So, one of the first stops I made was to the local Honda store to see what a new one would run me. I thought an LX with automatic would be nice. With no negotiations, they came out with a beginning price of $15K. No doubt I could have bought it for less, but lets use that figure to make things simple. Let's also assume it gets the same MPG as my older Civic

In the showroom is a 4-door Ciic Hybrid with CVT transmission. After inquiry, he said that all hybrids were selling for MSRP...nothing less, which would amount to a little over $20K, but let's use the $20K purchase price to make this easy. With the gas prices rising to $2/gal I had no reason to doubt him. To keep things simple, let's say that the hybrid gets 45 MPG overall.

Both cars are equipped similarly. I drove both. Both were nice except for the glaring fact that the hybrid was much slower than the gas only model and possessed a few driving quirks (that I'd probably get used to over time).

Let's move onto the financials.

Based on say....15K miles/year driving the Civic hybrid, it would use 333 gal. of fuel @ $2/gal. That's $666 in fuel/year.

Using the same 15K miles per year for the Civic LX automatic, it would use 429 gal of fuel per year. That's $858 in fuel/year.

The difference between the two is $192 more for the Civic LX auto for fuel used in a given year.

Let's say you keep either car to 100K miles. That's roughly about 7 years of useage. 7 years times $192 in fuel savings with the hybrid nets you $1,344 in fuel savings over the Civic LX.

Some comparisons using the $5K price differential (probably more given the deals being made on the Civic) between the real world cost of the two cars....

--you would have to drive the hybrid civic 19+ years to make up the difference in price over the civic LX auto
--you would have to drive the hybrid 180,000 more miles than the Civic LX to make up the price differential

That doesn't account for the added cost of replacing the hybrid's batteries if you did drive it that long. It also doesn't account for the much more lethargic acceleration of the hybrid when compared to the regular gas Civic LX.

Buying a Civic VP? The above figures are even more dramatic.

Point being, give Honda (and Toyota) credit for their entry in the hybrid sweepstakes, but from an economic point of view, they aren't quite ready for "prime time".

john1701a · June 2004

> they aren't quite ready for "prime time".

It would be best to judge each hybrid individually, rather than generalize.

The upcoming Accord-Hybrid will put putting more emphasis on power, than efficiency.

The primary purpose of Prius is maximum emission reduction, not MPG. That's a big difference from Civic-Hybrid. And yet, it still delivers greater efficiency. (I'm averaging 54 MPG at the pump with my 2004 Prius.)

The hybrid SUVs will place an interesting twist on things too. The Escape will be a good all-around balanced hybrid. The RX400h will instead put emphasis on power & speed.

JOHN

midnightcowboy · June 2004

I ran into the same thing at a Honda delaership last Saturday. They were selling for MSRP, salesman said the sold 46 Hybrids last month. The other Civics wee selling for a couple of hundred under invoice.

Rising gas prices and fear and uncertainty, makes hYbrids go up in price. WOW.

But with the HCH you get auto temperature and the cool blue instrumentation.

I can order a 2004 Isight for MSRP with 90 day delivery. I'm just not sure.

YMMV,
MidCow

graphicguy · June 2004

Everyone makes good points, but the Honda Civic Hybrid is the topic here.

I can appreciate the hybrid cars being cleaner. That may be advantageous for some, but in all honesty, I've seen reports which show that even the largest SUVs have cut down their emmissions to the point where cows emit more pollutants than than they do.

IMHO, the only other reason to have a hybrid Civic would be a financial one. I'm having a very hard time making that justification. The cool blue lights and temp control just aren't going to get it done.

Now, if they offered some sort of performance gain, then that would get my attention. The current one's in the showroom today aren't there yet, however.

Even using the previous mention of the Prius getting 54 MPG (that sounds a big high given just about every other report has the average closer to 42 MPG for the Prius, but we'll use the 54 number). That means it will use 278 gal of fuel in a year's use of 15K miles. That's $556 in fuel usage in a given year. That's a yearly difference in fuel costs of $302 over the Civic LX. You'd still have to drive the Prius approx 14 years to even out the cost differential between the Prius and the Civic LX. You'd also have to drive it approx 110,000 more miles than the Civic LX to make up the difference. You'd still have the cost of replacing the batteries during that period, which would make the equation even more lopsided.

I think for the most part, hybrids are being bought more as a knee jerk reaction to the present gas prices without many doing any real financial comparisons.

john1701a · June 2004

> I've seen reports which show that even the largest SUVs have cut down their emmissions to the point where cows emit

That seemingly tiny difference is actually quite massive when you step back and look at the big picture...

There are 60 MILLION new vehicles sold every year worldwide!

JOHN

graphicguy · June 2004

Yeah, but how many cows are there?

john1701a · June 2004

> Yeah, but how many cows are there?

Just because there is one type of poison does not mean we can allow another to go unchecked. We reduce where we can.

Remember, we are dealing with tolerances, not absolutes. Our goal is to keep below a threshold.

JOHN

blueiedgod · June 2004

Cow as well as humans and other animals emit CO2, carbon dioxide, cars emit CO2 and... NO2, NO3, CO, SO4, SO3 (all acid rain causing pollutants), as well as particulates such as soot. I have yet to see a cow that emitted soot. Manure may stink, but it is an excellent fertilizer. What does a car emit that is helpful?

As to fiscal reasoning behind the hybrids, there is none. A motorcycle will cost you well under $10K, and runs 60 miles to a gallon, has great acceleration. Heck a bike costs $100 and no opertating costs besides the tires and maintenance.

graphicguy · June 2004

Hey guys, I'm not trying to start a flame war here.

I was moderately interested in the hybrids. Personally, I don't see what they offer for the price differential over the Civic LX. The LX has power everything, crusie control, A/C just like the Civic hybrid (or the civic EX). The EX costs about $1K more than the LX. The same numbers apply. I still couldn't make the justification for a hybrid regardless of the comparison you want to use...emissions, financial, equipment levels, model, etc.

I think one big mistake is that some are not comparing real world out of pocket costs. Hybrids are selling for MSRP. In the real world, Civic LXs, EXs are steeply discounted. These are real dollars that come out of your pocket. If you want to compare MSRP to MSRP, that's OK by me. It doesn't reflect what's happening in reality, however.

I can't make the case for hybrids over the regular Civics. Maybe someday they will get to the point where they make sense. That day, IMHO, isn't here yet.

warner · June 2004

I agree with others who can find no financial justification for buying a Hybrid, which is why I bought an LX instead. Using Carsdirect pricing, the automatic LX can be bought for $15,011 and the Hybrid can be bought for $19,744 - a difference of $4733. Someone mentioned all the extra "options" that the Hybrid has (in an attempt to justify the cost difference) - what exactly ARE those great options for $4,700? Front side airbags (available on the LX for $228), antilock brakes, automatic climate control, trip computer, variable-intermittent wipers (mine are intermittent as well, just not "variably intermittent"), rear spoiler (dealer offered this to me for $575 installed - didn't like it), and alloy wheels (I got the EX alloy wheels for $419). So, the options that are available for the LX to bring it closer to the equipment of the Hybrid would have cost me $1222. That leaves anti-lock brakes, automatic climate control, trip computer, and variable intermittent wipers making up the $3,511 difference. The anti-lock brakes would be a nice option - let's say those are worth $1,000. That would leave the climate control, trip computer, and variable wipers at a cost of over $2,500. Worth it??? My neighbor bought a new Hybrid and she loves it.....I don't see much difference between it and my LX (in fact, I hate the aluminum wheels on the Hybrid - like the EX Alloys much better). Everyone has their own motives I understand, I just don't think it's possible to justify their additional cost. Also, my LX is an ULEV so I doubt there is much if any difference in the emissions between the two vehicles. As long as everyone is happy with their choice, it's working out the way it should - I just could never justify that additional cost. The lowest mileage that I've gotten out of my first 3 tanks of gas was 35 mpg; the highest was 40 mpg. On this 4th tank I already have 250 miles on the first half tank, so this will probably be 40 or better as well.

Warner

warner · June 2004

Oh, and due to the batteries taking up the space they do, you also lose the fold-down rear seats with the Hybrid....

Warner

graphicguy · June 2004

The financials really become glaring if you add in the cost of replacing the batteries in the hybrid. To justify the cost differential, you would have to drive the hybrid a long, long time for hundreds of thousands of miles. Probably, you'd have to replace more than one set of batteries if you want to keep the hybrid long enough for it to make economic sense. With the cost of those batteries thrown in, it never makes any economic or environmental sense.

I didn't even include those costs in my analogy. I also didn't take into consideration disposal of those batteries. While some may be refurbished, some will not and end up in landfills....not the environmental impact we would hope for.

Now, as you said, if your motivation is strictly to have a "gee whiz" hybrid in your driveway, then I have no issue with that. Their shortcomings are many, though.

I find it impossible to make economic or environmetal sense of the hybrids so far.

john1701a · June 2004

Where is your proof that the battery-pack with *EVER* need to be replaced?

The few real-world accounts we have of hybrids exceeding 150,000 miles have supported the fact that the battery-packs are still working just fine, with no evidence at all of replacement being needed.

JOHN

lngtonge18 · June 2004

Where is your proof there is a such thing as a lifetime battery? Batteries degrade over time and will eventually need to be replaced. It's just a fact of life and no proof is needed that the batteries will eventualy fail in hybrids. Why do you think the nickel metal hydride batteries in my solar powered accent lights say they will need to be replaced every 3-5 years?? Granted, those are simple cheap batteries but they are made of the same thing.

john1701a · June 2004

> no proof is needed that the batteries will eventualy fail in hybrids.

You are claiming (based on speculation) vehicle will stop working once the battery-pack gets too old, requiring replacement to be able to use the vehicle again. I am claiming (based on actual data) the battery-pack will outlast the useful life of the vehicle. That is a massive difference that you are not acknowledging.

What are the reasons traditional vehicles die?

For many, they just fall apart due to things like rust, fatigue, and growing annoyances. In other words, where is your proof that the battery-pack will fail *BEFORE* this? That is what you are claiming.

In reality, the battery-pack, will likely outlast other components.

Your assumptions are based on usage facts that don't apply to hybrids. The big one is that the batteries are used the same way as they are in rechargable devices. That is *NOT* true. The pack in a hybrid is never allowed to be deep-discharged like what routinely happens in laptop-computers, cell-phones, and power-tools. Avoiding that kind of stress is what allows for much longer battery life.

JOHN

graphicguy · June 2004

In all fairness, John, there's also no reliable widespread proof that these batteries will last past 100K miles, either.

Fact is, they are warranted to last between 80K to 100K miles. Some will make it to 150K miles no doubt. But, that would be the exception rather than the rule as they are still nickel based batteries.

Of course, all of this is dependent on how they're used. If you are "gentle" in driving your hybrid (light in town use and little to no highway), you will achieve the highest MPG. But, that's where battery use is maximized and the need for replacement will come sooner.

If you do more demanding driving and spend more time on the highway where the gas engine gets the bulk of the work, it's reasonable to think the batteries would last longer, but you sacrifice MPG for the increased battery life.

Climate also plays a part. If you live in wintery areas, batteries won't last as long as they would in warmer year round climates.

Current replacement costs are around $3,000/battery pack. It's estimated that when more hybrids are on the roads and more replacements are needed, then manufacturing efficiencies will bring that cost down to $1,200/battery pack. That's assuming that more than just 10-12 models of hybrids come to market in the next several years, though.

By that time, the hope is that fuel cell vehicles will be viable.

midnightcowboy · June 2004

>> cows emit

>> 60 million vehicles sold worldwide

Over 60 million cows can't be wrong! Maybe the numbers of cows worldwide has decreased since the mad cow disease, but how do we control bovine methane?

Wait those are only new vehicles and since the service life of a vehicle is 7-10 years and increasing the big picture is that there 110 or 100's of groups of "new 60 Million cars" added each year. The poor cows don't stand a chance with methane flatulation.

But the point is emission reduction and hybrids are two independent variables. You don't have to have a hybrid to achieve significant emission reduction. A lot of cars that are not hybrid have a PZEV and California is gearing toward ZEV. The biggest problem is the 600 million or so polluting cars still in service!

john1701a · June 2004

> that would be the exception rather than the rule as they are still nickel based batteries

How can you conclude that?

The fact that the battery-pack is warrantied for 150,000 miles should be a big clue that they last at least that long. Why would an automaker knowingly incur that kind of replacement expense?

> If you live in wintery areas, batteries won't last as long as they would in warmer year round climates.

Exactly the opposite is true.

Batteries love the cold. Yes, it reduces their capacity. But it also protects them from getting hot... which causes the chemicals to break down and corrosion to build up.

Hot climates are much harder on batteries. Just ask someone living in Arizona. It is common to replace a 12V every 3 years or so. In Minnesota, they last around 7 years.

JOHN

graphicguy · June 2004

It's reasonable to assume that the answer is not PZEV or ZEV cars, but the need for effective mass transit to reduce the numbers of cars on the road.

Can't disagree with you there, but that's been a thorn in the side of U.S. trasporation needs since our country expanded to both coasts.

graphicguy · June 2004

John...we're just going to have to agree to disagree. I live in a winter climate. Winer months are always more of a problem with batteries than the warmer months. That's the reason for so many battery failures in winter months. You ever try to crank over your car in the winter? Very slow and hard on the battery. That's also the time when the battery is most likely to go into a "deep discharge" state.

This is all getting away from the issue of trying to justify hybrids over plain ole' regular fuel efficient gas cars. A reasonable case can't be made.

Honda Civic Hybrid

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