Honda Civic Hybrid

larsb · October 2004

As an owner of a 2004 HCH with Bridgestone B381 tires, I can advise other owners that those particular tires might be hard to get in an emergency.

I unavoidably ran over a nailed board this morning, ruining my two passenger side tires, and no one in the Greater Phoenix metro area who deals with Showcase Honda has my size in stock.

They were able to find 185/65-14 tires so we are going with two of them until they can get the correct size......(what a pain)

rfruth · October 2004

B381s are 185/65-14 aren't they ? http://www.roadwaywholesaletire.com/B381-SPECS.htm
So when you say going with two 185/65-14s till they get the correct size whats that mean, does the HCH call for a special LRR tire ? Even if so I would be inclined to put the two new tires on the rear and be done with it (unless that would create warranty or handling problems)

larsb · October 2004

B381 come in various sizes.

The HCH does not "call for" a LRR tire, but the OEM tires for the 2004 HCH are the B381 185/70-14s.

And yes, the two new tires are on the rear and are going to STAY - they are not going to get the right size later.

So I've got two 185/70-14s on the front and two 185/65-14s on the back.......Odd, huh? LOL

rfruth · October 2004

As you know not much diff between 70 s & 65 s, its a shame to have a cock eyed 2004 but I have never had a level car, shocks springs or tires, something is always different.

ep_ · October 2004

Hi all, to make a long story short, I am getting an offer I can't say no to, to buy a Civic hybrid. Though I look forward to advancing the cause of this technology and saving fuel, I am prone to bouts of very spirited driving. So I was wondering,

1. Whats quicker, CVT or the 5-speed?
2. Has anyone tried to upgrade the stock air filter for a drop-in K&N or even an AEM intake?
3. Anyone considered swapping the exhaust system for something more efficient (NOT loud and obnoxious but freer flowing)
4. Weight of the stock 14" rims?
5. Is the suspension the same as other Civic Sedans? I will be considering upgrading to KYB GR2s and/or Eibach Pro-kit springs to tighten up the handling and body roll with only an imperceptible change in ride height. However, since it weighs more, Im not sure the spring rates, dampening, etc would match up.

Has anyone considered anything like this? I love the car from the few test drives I have been on, but once in awhile I would like a little more oomph and sharper handling from the car, for both performance and safety.

Thanks,
Pat

mauto · October 2004

Yes, unfortunately, the HCH has the same flabby suspension as all other Civics (except Si).

Your savings in fuel costs will instantly be gone when you pay for the upgrades.

I wouldn't upgrade anything regarding engine performance, since the engine is pretty much at its peak already and any change to the hybrid system, even a different air filter, may throw things out of tune.

It seems what you are looking for is a reasonably fuel efficient car that has excellent handling and good power. The Mazda 3 fits that profile and you don't have to upgrade anything to get it.

midnightcowboy · October 2004

1. 5-speed is faster by abpout 1 second 0-60.
2. I picked up a web sight on Insight and several have upgrade to more efficient air cleaner. Free improvement!
3. Probably won't help that much
4. There are lighter rims, which would improve mielage.
5. Your idea of suspension is a good improvement. However even the Civic line has much better suspension than some other cars, example Prius, Corolla.

Good luck!.

MidCow

ep_ · October 2004

Thanks Mauto and MidCow, I am getting an awesome incentive to buy this car which will more than offset the price of these upgrades. The Saab 9-3 that I was going for before I looked at the HCH would probably get these, if not more.

Anyways, I agree that the exhaust upgrade will yield negligible results. I still may give it a try though, if I can find a place that knows what they are doing. Does anyone know if its the same catback exhaust system as an EX or DX/LX? I'll probably go with lightening the unsprung weight with the lighter rims and upgrading the suspension. Whats that website with the free air cleaner upgrade?

Thanks for the info guys.

Pat

misterme · October 2004

Hello EP:
Please allow my $.02 on this:
Ive driven my 04 HCH since last February and can say that it handles quite well, especially in the hard turns thanks for the double wishbone rear suspension.

However, if you are looking primarily for a fast, sporty car then you would do much better with one of the other Civics, as they can be lower initial cost.

The HCH can be driven in fast, sporty way but if you do that you will not get good MPG results. (No matter what you drive)
My own boring story:
I drove a 94 Dodge Spirit for 10 years, almost exclusively 80-95MPH.floor it and get around the next slowpokes in the Left lanes. Does it sound familiar? Consuming so much fuel (~16MPG) a couple of times I tried to drive for better mileage but didnt know what I was doing and just drove slowly. Such a terrible bore-- I soon resorted back to my old ways.
I bought my HCH as a replacement and soon got hooked into the sport of hyper mileage. I learned from the seasoned Insight drivers how to get the best efficiency and still drive around the posted speed limits.
Gone was the day of my daily, sometimes dangerous traffic swerving habit.

Learning to drive for efficiency isnt just going slow, there are so many constantly changing variables and things to do that the drive is far from boring.
My tanks have averaged around 60MPG since last April.
I usually get just under 700 miles from around 11 gallons of gas.
My wife drives it as a normal person and gets around EPA rating of 48.
The database over at greenhybrid dot com shows an average of the same- as reported by many owners.

I see a lot of parallels with the hybrids and the diet food industry.
Someone can buy expensive diet food and neglect everything else about loosing weight. They might be disappointed and blame the food for poor results.
Others buy the food and follow other suggestionswith wonderful results.
Similarly,
Some people buy hybrid cars expecting the vehicle to do it all. Drive an HCH hard and get around 35MPG..pretty poor for that expensive car.
On the other hand drive normally as 80% people do and get good results.
Of course one could choose as I do for max efficiency and get fantastic MPG.

Please let me also mention that driving conditions can also play a major part, as many people report around 40MPG going stop light to stop light in very heavy traffic.but I guess even 40MPG in that situation is pretty good for any car.

Anyway if your main requirement is the need for a fast, sporty car then you might consider a different vehicle and save some money.

Am I making any sense?

gagrice · October 2004

That makes a lot of sense. If you want a performance car get one. If you want a performance hybrid the Accord HAH will be out in December.

ep_ · October 2004

Hey misterme, thanks for the input. I completely understand your points, but allow me delve into the reasons I would want to perform these modifications.

If I must get into a small amount of detail, I am getting money to get the civic hybrid (no such luck with the Accord Hybrid, gagrice). To put it lightly, an extremely good amount of money. My wallet will still be in positive territory after these small enhancements.

As a driver of hondas and acuras since I was 16, I do admire the mix of economy, efficiency, and the sportiness engineered into most hondas. So I will buy this car and will shift paradigms in my driving habits, but sometimes, I would like to wring out that tiny engine and take a cloverleaf above the recommended speed, as I have with my other hondas. It reminds me of my 4 door 91 civic auto....not too fast, refined ride (for the time), economical, but really fun to get those revs up and take turns. Am I going faster than anyone else? I never cared.

In addition to the money I am getting, economically, I find that the more I make a car my own by adding these very sensible performance enhancements, I tend to keep the car longer. I have just about the same mods on my 4dr integra LS 5-speed, and you would have to cut my right hand off to get those keys from me. So I think that the length of time I keep a car offsets any cost considerations....i usually wring every last mile out of them.

I hope you guys understand where I am coming from....I think there are some like minded HCH owners out there that want to advance the cause of this technology, but would like a spice the car up a bit. On top of that, I am getting a deal I cannot pass up. So, Im not trying to make it into a sports car, just enhance an already solid Civic, as I have done with my other economical and efficient Hondas.

Pat

mauto · October 2004

Yeah, when you were "16", Civics were really sporty cars with high revving engines. But today, Honda has taken much of that excitement away and left that task to other competitors like Subaru and Mazda. The latest Civic engines have flat torque curves and less high revving capability (not necessarily a bad thing). The "sensible enhancements" you're contemplating for a HCH, will simply bring it up to the perfomance level of a comparable Mazda 3. I don't see how you can buy the HCH, pay for some mods, and come out cheaper than the Mazda 3 and certainly the Scion tC. Yes, the tC has worse efficiency, but for about $16.5k, its performance is unbeatable.

midnightcowboy · October 2004

When I was 16, Civics didn't yet exist LOL

. But when the CVCC engine came out it was pretty phenomenal, then VTEC, then iVTEC

I think the HCH is a great car. I once had a GL 1500, CRX HF, CRX Si, Accord SE and Integra GSR I will probably get another Honda/Acura in the future.

Good Luck,

MidCow

P,S.- Every Honda/Acura I owned was manual shift

ep_ · October 2004

Hey misterme, thanks for the input. I completely understand your points, but allow me delve into the reasons I would want to perform these modifications.

If I must get into a small amount of detail, I am getting money to get the civic hybrid (no such luck with the Accord Hybrid, gagrice). To put it lightly, an extremely good amount of money. My wallet will still be in positive territory after these small enhancements.

As a driver of hondas and acuras since I was 16, I do admire the mix of economy, efficiency, and the sportiness engineered into most hondas. So I will buy this car and will shift paradigms in my driving habits, but sometimes, I would like to wring out that tiny engine and take a cloverleaf above the recommended speed, as I have with my other hondas. It reminds me of my 4 door 91 civic auto....not too fast, refined ride (for the time), economical, but really fun to get those revs up and take turns. Am I going faster than anyone else? I never cared.

In addition to the money I am getting, economically, I find that the more I make a car my own by adding these very sensible performance enhancements, I tend to keep the car longer. I have just about the same mods on my 4dr integra LS 5-speed, and you would have to cut my right hand off to get those keys from me. So I think that the length of time I keep a car offsets any cost considerations....i usually wring every last mile out of them.

I hope you guys understand where I am coming from....I think there are some like minded HCH owners out there that want to advance the cause of this technology, but would like a spice the car up a bit. On top of that, I am getting a deal I cannot pass up. So, Im not trying to make it into a sports car, just enhance an already solid Civic, as I have done with my other economical and efficient Hondas.

Pat

ep_ · October 2004

I don't know why my earlier response was double posted....apologies...

I think both cars you mentioned are great cars....but I am not getting an incentive to get those cars. Even if I considered the Mazda 3 (which I have, but my wife doesn't like it), it will still not be cheaper than the HCH when I consider the incentive I am getting. Even the 16.5k tC, which is IMO the best car in its class, will not beat the deal I am getting (plus placing my 2 year old in back everyday would be torturous). This deal is not through the dealer, factory, or otherwise....it is a gift for getting the car. I'll leave it at that, I do not want to get into anymore detail.

Hope this clear it up for you, Mauto....I am really looking to see if anyone has performed these modifications, and for my own situation, costs are not a consideration.

Pat

PS Hey midcow, IMO, every Honda should be stick, they are the best on the planet.

blueiedgod · October 2004

PS Hey midcow, IMO, every Honda should be stick, they are the best on the planet.

Amen to that !!!!!!

mauto · October 2004

I don't know, you might get an argument from some Miata drivers about "best on the planet".

Now if we could only buy a Civic that handled like a Miata ...

blueiedgod · October 2004

Now if we could only buy a Civic that handled like a Miata ...

It is called S2000 :-)

josemedina · October 2004

It was $2000 in 2003 and $1500 in 2004.

My tax guy says it will save me about $435 in taxes this year.

next year it will be less.

6000 miles so far and I love it.

Alot better that my Suburban's 15MPG

45 MPG - 70 to 80 MPH during 34 mile trip.

gagrice · October 2004

Welcome to the forum. 45 mpg sounds pretty darn good on a new vehicle. Out of curiosity what was the out the door price on your HCH? Did the dealer add to the MSRP?

307web · October 2004

One 34 mile trip is hardly a test. What was the average mileage over 6000 miles?

gfedchak · October 2004

We're getting 46 mpg with mixed driving - all speeds and conditions - over the first 2000 miles with our Civic Hybrid. We're very pleased.

Better than a Suburban? It's even better than the 22-24 mpg I was getting with my 1998 Prelude!

307web · October 2004

That's good mileage.

larsb · November 2004

For those interested in MPG stories:

I bought my HCH "used" in July 2004 with 4823 miles on it. The Trip B mileage matched the car's total mileage, so the "lifetime MPG" number was and is the Trip B meter. It was 34.4 when I got the keys, which I think is pretty poor. I have no idea who the first owner was, but they obviously did not try to get the best MPG results out of the car.

After about 4400 miles of driving, the Lifetime MPG is now 38.9 and my personal MPG after about seven and a half tanks is around 48 MPG. I think in about five to eight more tanks I can get the Lifetime up above 40.

My commute is short and non-highway and I live in Phoenix where my MPG is alternately helped and hurt by the weather - hurt when I need to use the A/C, helped when it is moderate in the low-to-mid 80s and the battery performs best.

So it's a struggle to get 48 consistently, but I'm keeping up the good fight.

misterme · November 2004

Larsb,
If you are getting 48MPG doing short trips then your are doing pretty good....around the EPA of the car.

I know what you mean with the weather, Here in the Atlanta area things are currently very pleasent now.
Good for great MPG.

larsb · November 2004

Thanks for the encouraging words Misterme....I am actually surpassing the EPA ratings since my manual tranny HCH is rated 46/51.

Current tank is at 415 miles and 54.5 on the FCD, but so far that FCD has been reading 1-3 mpg high using "miles divided by gallons refueled" method, which I prefer to use...

Kirstie_H · November 2004

A reporter is looking for a Honda Civic hybrid buyer who would agree to talk to the reporter AND have his/her picture taken for the magazine. We're after regular folks looking to save a few pennies at the pump, rather than those who purchased for primarily environmental concerns.

Please respond to jfallon@edmunds.com ASAP, but no later than Monday, November 8, 2004, with your daytime contact info.

307web · November 2004

Isn't the 2006 Civic going to be a redesigned body style? I would hope they will also have an all new improved hybrid system and standard side curtain airbags and ABS.
The current Prius is a major improvement over the first generation, so maybe the new Civic hybrid will also be greatly improved.
Might be worth waiting for and since all hybrids (other than the Honda Insight) have been hot sellers maybe they will up production at the outset and not be "surprised by the demand."

larsb · November 2004

Don't know the reasons, but the PZEV version is 11.9 gallons and the SULEV is 13.2 gallons...

dsell · November 2004

I have not found a good explaination for this. I even asked my salesman when I purchased the vehicle. He didnt even know there were two different versions of the car.

Hopefully someone sheds some light on this, but from what I have found, it may have something to do with what the gas tank is made of. The resin they use to manufacture the gas tanks for AT-PZEV vehicles reduces or eliminates fuel vapor emissions.... but its tough to find out how this may play in the SIZE of the tank. Maybe the walls of the tank need to be sufficiently beefier (enough to displace 1.3gal?) or maybe some other mystery emissions devices are at play. I have yet to craw underneath my HCH.

EDIT: I just read that the Prius has a flexible "bladder" tank... so if this is also true of the PZEV HCH, you would need some clearance around the tank for it to expand.

electrictroy · November 2004

The Civic PZEV doesn't have a bladder. Since the purpose of PZEV is to eliminate evaporation of gasoline vapors, the missing 2.2 gallons is probably used for "traps" to prevent the vapor from escaping through the refuel port.

dsell · November 2004

Perhaps some sort of labyrinth or condenser maybe? Interesting. Thanks for the info electricroy!

lapdogman · November 2004

I just purchased a new 2004 with 157 miles on it. I drive 64 miles each way to work from a river ranch 1 1/2 miles to a two lane highway along the river through hills. At about 600 miles I started seeing the red battery light come on during the first half hour, but not before 10 minutes into the trip, so vehicle was completely warm. I drive in the dark and window defrost and high beams are on. I have to stop to open and close a gate the first 500 yds. I first noticed the light when entering the highway. It stays on a second or two and then did not come on after that. The dealer told me it is a problem, but he can't find the problem. This concerns me, because the warranty will last me only 1 year on the car and 2.5 years on the IMA. After that I am paying for that time to look for the problem. I have a 100 mile round trip to the nearest Service facility. I am not happy with this car for this reason alone. I feel the cost of repairs will outweigh any fuel savings in the future. Anybody else experience similar problems?

mauto · November 2004

Actually, the additional cost of the Civic Hybrid (over comparable EX) will outweigh any fuel savings, let alone any repairs.

dsell · November 2004

I have not seen this... I too have run with high-beams, heater, defroster uphill on several occasions and never seen the battery light ocome on... it should handle that load just fine. Under warranry, they have to fix it. Hold them to it even if they have to bring in a specialist to look at it. I dont know what state you are in, but there is a lemon law in California and its worth looking into if you live here.

Most dealers dont know how to work on these very well yet.
At best it could be the tiny battery in the engine compartment. Check the cables and the "eye" to see if the battery is good. If so, the IMA controller could need some work... all of which should be covered by Honda. They want these Hybrids to pay off for them in the long run, so they should bend-over backwards (!) to help you. If not, take it up with Honda Corporate.

dsell · November 2004

Yes... but that's not why we purchased ours. The Hybrid logo on the back of the Civic Hybrid is bordered in green for a reason

lapdogman · November 2004

I am pursuing the lemon law aspect, because I can't be sure that there is not a defect in the IMA system. I have taken it in for repair once and they couldn't reproduce the problem nor find it. My problem is I am so far away and work even farther away, I don't have time to run back and forth and prove the light is coming on. Just because we are protected by the "lemon law" it does not guarantee that you don't devote a lot of time and money to getting it resolved. I am in Oregon and they have to try to repair it four times or have it in the shop over 30 days and they can deduct a reasonable fee for usage. I had 600 miles on it when I saw the problem, 1100 before I could get it to them and they didn't see anything wrong with it. I will have over 3000 miles on it in a month. I do think Honda wants to maintain a good image, so I expect them to do what is right. Did I say, I love the way it handles.

gfedchak · November 2004

I love the way ours handles, too. I'd buy it for that alone. They got the electric power steering pretty much right, which is, I guess, hard to do, considering how GM has struggled with it in their new Malibu and Malibu Maxx and in the Saturn Ion.

Throw in 45 mpg, and it's icing.........

mauto · November 2004

If you think that the HCH handles well on its low rolling resistance (read hard, no grip) skinny tires, you must have been driving a late 70s Lincoln before

While the ride and handling are OK, I think most other cars in this class do better.

I owned a 97 Civic HX 5man. that got 42mpg. The "icing" for me was not staring at an IMA wondering whether Honda techs would be scratching their heads to fix a fault.

isellhondas · November 2004

It's just a car with it's own specific repair methods. This is why they go to school from time to time.

mauto · November 2004

I'm not saying Honda techs are incapable, but the IMA is still a rarity, and cannot be serviced by an independant mechanic yet. When hybrids become as popular as non-hybrids, count me in. Until then, I'll be happy to pump in the extra $2/tank it costs me to run my EX over the hybrid.

I'm still trying to see how the Civic HX fits into the whole picture. It's highway mileage is almost as good as the HCH at a considerable lower price. I had a 97 HX which I liked but had no cruise. So I guess after many owners complained, they added cruise, but in true Honda fashion, took away the power windows.

gfedchak · November 2004

The HCH handles very well on its low-rolling resistance tires. I drove a 1998 Honda Prelude previously. The Prelude won a handling competition in Car & Driver as "the best-handling car under $30,000."

It's interesting to note that since the Prelude and prior to the HCH, I drove and quickly passed on to my wife a Toyota Camry SE V6. The Camry, even without low-rolling resistance tires, truly handled boing-ily and, especially, numbly.

The HCH gets nicely close to the '98 Prelude in terms of both raw handling and driver feel.

And it gets close to 50 miles per gallon in the process..........

mauto · November 2004

Well since the HCH has exactly the same suspension setup and tuning (except for the 14" rims) as the EX which I drive, I can say that my EX is no prelude - not even close. The Civic (all trim levels except Si) isn't a bad handling car, but I'm sure your mentioning "Prelude" in the same sentence will produce a few chuckles amongst the readers of these posts.

You won't get any arguements about your description of the handling of the Camry.

dsell · November 2004

Ill have to agree with the "HCH handling worse than the Prelude" camp. I have only drivin a 1990 Prelude, but I would trust it much more around a hairpin curve than an HCH or an EX stock. In my opinion, the HCH does corner well with the skinny little tires, but it has a much higher center of gravity than the Prelude had. On the freeways I find the HCH rear suspension a bit spongy over small dips.

The Camry has never catered to those who want a good cornering car. When I rented a 2000 Camry for a week, it bothered me how much the car pitched front to back when accelerating and braking. I felt like I was driving a Ford Bronco.

isellhondas · November 2004

Well, this isn't exactly true. Honda has had IMA cars on the market for five years now and they have sold a lot of them. Hardly a rarity at this point. Independants are more than capable of working on them as well provided they have taken the time and trouble to know what they are doing.

I too, am puzzled as to WHY honda continues to produce the HX! I'll bet it's been five years since I've sold one! By the time A/C gets added they cost almost as much as an EX!

lapdogman · November 2004

Corporate Honda is now pissing me off. They refuse to give me a new car. They are actually thinking of flying in a Technical Expert. My warranty will not last that long with the miles I am putting on it. Just think how much it will cost me to have a Technical Expert flown in to resolve a minor problem after the warranty runs out. For all of you thinking of buying one, I would get a Prius, if I were you.

lapdogman · November 2004

You got that right mauto. I wish I could have read your message before I purchased mine. To all those who think Honda will do the right thing, think again. They are putting me through hell.

gagrice · November 2004

If the battery light comes on it is probably the battery that will last forever. Maybe one of these hybrid gurus can give you the voltage you should see across a fully charged NiMH battery. The Battery is made by Panasonic and should have a part number on it. It is probably an OEM Part number so it will take a bit of research to find the specs on it. The dealer probably does not want to get involved as they don't want to replace a $5000 battery. Isn't your warranty on the battery 100k miles? You cannot have near that many miles yet.
PS
DO NOT let them put anything but OEM battery in the car. All batteries are not created equal by a long shot.

dsell · November 2004

If you think a Prius is any easier to understand for a Toyota tech, you are fooling yourself. We all feel for ya man! All I can offer at this point is keep all documentation for this problem, and keep the number for your small claims court handy. Good luck with the Tech Expert... I hope he can fix it.

Please keep us updated with the news. I too am a high-mileage user of the HCH. 9000 miles since September and no problems yet. <knock on wood>

mauto · November 2004

"For all of you thinking of buying one, I would get a Prius, if I were you. "

I think everyone IS getting a Prius based on the fact that you can't buy one for many months, but you CAN have your choice of HCH on the dealer lot - same day delivery.

Honda Civic Hybrid

Comments

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles