Ferrari-the Ultimate classic (Ferrari Lovefest Topic)

tsaupe1 · July 2004

I was at Lime Rock today for Ferrari Racing Days and finally saw a 612 up close. It's beautiful! Pininfarina hit it dead on. It's a bit larger than a 456. Parked beside a 360 Spider it looked quite big, but much less so beside a 575. Those sides, which look rather flat in photographs, are actually a series of compound curves. The hard edged angle which runs down the top of the fenders carries through the headlight covers ending at with a curve gently defining the nose. Just a series of one luscious curve flowing into another.

There's definitely no dissapointment in this car. The interior is wall to wall Schedoni leather. Couldn't get in the car but the seats looked luxuriously inviting. They appear to have the perfect combination of comfort and support.

The whole of the car is gorgeous and visually exciting. FNA had it on display in Azzurro blue over parchment. In the same tent was a new Quatroporte, another beautiful four seater. Obviously, the four door is much bigger but still retains a certain delicacy. I'd love to own either if them, but most especially the 612. My love affair with +2 Ferraris lingers on!

Tom

andys120 · July 2004

It sounds really exciting.

merc1 · July 2004

Details about the 360 Modena's replacement are starting to surface. A few quotes from Auto Express magazine:

"Christened the F430, a name Ferrari trademarked for use across the world in March and April this year, the car will debut a radical new look penned by Pininfarina, under the watchful eye of Ferrari design chief Frank Stephenson. The newcomer is expected to make its public debut early next year at the Detroit Motor Show in January, before going on sale in the summer."

"Based on the same aluminum chassis as the acclaimed F360 Modena, the F430 will be powered by a new 4.3-litre, 500bhp V8 designed to see off competition from the Lamborghini Gallardo and new Porsche 911 Turbo.

"It sports a body that's far more dramatic than the current machine. Sacrificing flowing curves for aggressive lines and angles, the car is fitted with bigger 19-inch alloys, larger, functional air intakes and a new rear diffuser to aid downforce.

"Auto Express's sources have suggested there's even a possibility that the new F430 will get active aerodynamics, including a rear spoiler that lifts at speed - similar to the new 911 Carrera. At the rear, the car's looks are particularly dramatic, with circular rear lights, similar in style to those fitted to the Enzo and 612."

(Dan Strong - Wednesday 14th July 2004 - Auto Express)

Sounds positively scintillating......

M

tsaupe1 · July 2004

Sounds interesting. My wife leaves for Modena tomorrow (unfortunately, I can't go this year)and is planning a Maranello/Fiorano visit. Maybe she'll get some spy shots. We lucked out with the Enzo a couple of years ago, saw the saw the 575 Competition car being tested last year, so who knows? Maybe we'll have an Edmunds exclusive when she returns.

tsaupe1 · July 2004

I was out for a drive this morning and passed what appeared to be a car show. I stopped and discovered it was a Fiero meet. Some of these folks are really innovative. A few engine swaps, like a monster supercharged V8 in a Fiero! Anyway, nice folks who really love their cars. There were no conversions there. Actually I had hoped there would be. I've never seen one close up. However, I was given some good advice on what to do to make my car look more like a real Ferrari! Until I opened the engine cover, that is. LOL

Mr_Shiftright · July 2004

You mean the fake Ferrari-Fieros? They look pretty bad if you know what a Ferrari is supposed to look like.

Actually I like the last version of the Fiero, the 5-speed. It was an interesting car at least, although not a very good one.

andys120 · July 2004

what it is that car enthusiasts saw in the Fiero.

I remember seeing one when they first came out and thinking "Wow, GM's built a mid-engined sports car".

Then I found out it was nothing special as far as performance, let's hope the do better by the Solstice.

Tom, let me guess, did they want you to paint your car red and put prancing horse stickers all over it? LOL!

tsaupe1 · July 2004

Sure, fender shields were mentioned. Which, by the way, were never installed by the factory on any 308/328 as they never were meant for competition. They thought the car should be lower! My God, I already have to touch up the chin spoiler almost weekly!

I think many of them had tongues planted firmly in their cheeks, but several owners really did assume it was a kit. As soon as I realized it was all Fieros, I expected that response and joined in the humor.

It's amazing (and disheartening) that "is it a kit?" is the first question from 80% of people who first see the car. I'm usually very polite and explanatory, saying "no, it's the real thing." I think I sometimes forget that most people rarely see them "in the flesh" and assume that it's much more likely to be a fake.

Anyway, i dropped by a cruise event today. Figured "what the heck" and put the car in for judging. As these things are generally all Hot Rods (which I love) and muscle cars, I'm always odd-man-out. Well, today the car won a trophy! I'm not exactly sure what for, probably for being the only foreign car, but I'll take it. Now I need a good story to tell my wife when she returns from Italy. It needs to involve tough competition and a Miss Something-Or-Other, who presented the award and hit on me. Naaahhhh. she would never believe that!

Mr_Shiftright · July 2004

I don't mind people building Fiero kits or whatever gives them pleasure, but when they put a Ferrari badge on it, I have to give them some flak about it. It's simply not right to do that.

tsaupe1 · July 2004

Amen. For a while Ferrari was really cracking down on the builders of these kits but apparently they've eased off. I suppose it's the same old story that for everyone you shut down, another (or the same under a different name) springs up. The other unpleasant effect is that the kit car owners have driven up the prices, and made quantities scarce of certain badges for the 3X8 series.

Mr_Shiftright · July 2004

Well Porsche is not so bashful about cracking down. You put a Porsche badge on a kit car you are selling for commercial purposes and they'll track you down to Manchuria if they have to. BMW and Benz are pretty strict, too. I've heard of repair shops and collectible car consignors being busted for hanging the factory logo on their premises.

andys120 · July 2004

Relive the glory days of Porsche versus Ferrari as Speed Channel follows the adventures of Mario Andretti, Vic Elford and others in the 1972
World Makes Championship:

<The Speed Merchants airs @ 8pm Wednesday, be there or be...well, not much of a tifosi.

tsaupe1 · July 2004

Saw the film last year when Speed ran it. It's well worth watching.If I remember correctly, Andretti was driving the 312 P that season. One of the very best!

andys120 · July 2004

That's right, Tom. My Sebring poster shows Andretti as the co-winner of the 12 hour in '72 driving a 312P Spider. I saw Elford win the year before with Larousse in the mighty Porsche 917K.

I got to see Andretti and McLaren drive the GT-40/Mk.IV to victory my first trip to Sebring in '67.

merc1 · July 2004

Hey guys what is the official F1 site?

M

tsaupe1 · July 2004

www.formula1.com/

There are a number of good F1 sites on the web, but this is Bernie's official site.

tsaupe1 · July 2004

" be there or be...well, not much of a tifosi"

I watched again, because I'm a true Tifosi. I had forgotten that Ferrari skipped Le Mans that year. But I was surprised to see what appeared to be a 312 in private hands at Le Sarthe. I had read that these cars were supposed to be factory only. Enzo didn't think the privateers could handle them. I guess I'll have to do a little more reading.

How quickly we forget just how dangerous motor racing used to be. Seeing Jo Bonnier and Ronnie Peterson reminded me of the last time I looked through Jesse Alexander's marvelous photo book "At Speed." A vast majority of the drivers pictured were lost in accidents.

And the circuits! We've grown used to run off and foam backed walls. tire barriers and catch fences. Sebring with dirt piled outside the corners to catch the cars was a grim reminder. Thank you Sir Jackie Stewart for making those changes.

Last question. Did Vic Elford retire that season? I seem to remember that he drove for at least one more? Andy. Shifty, anyone know?

andys120 · July 2004

I guess I'm not that much of a Tifosi. Elford, who came out of rallying really didn't have that long a career. I dunno when it was he retired.

Meanwhile Autoweek highlights new go-fast goodies for the 575 Maranello including Ceramic
Composite brakes. I wonder what new rotors go for <:^O !

http://autoweek.com/cat_content.mv?port_code=autoweek&cat_cod- e=carnews&loc_code=index&content_code=04121385

Mr_Shiftright · July 2004

Looks like Ferrari won the Car & Driver V-12 GT car contest this month!

tsaupe1 · August 2004

Just read the article. can't say I agree with their summation of the styling of the 612, but I'm willing to admit my prejudices. What amazes me is the apparent QC problems of the Aston and what sounds like bad design/engineering in the Bentley.

I thought their comments about fuel economy a bit silly. Do they really think that will make a difference to anyone who can afford on of these? I care quite a bit in my daily drivers, but when the F car goes out my last concern is mileage.

sphinx99 · August 2004

Read the article too. My takeaway was that the CL600 is the amazing car of that roundup. It nearly beat out the brand-new Ferrari (4 pts off) despite being an older car that costs 1/2 the price. I had no idea the performance envelope of the new 6L was that high. It'll be interesting to see a CL65 pitted against this same crowd!

merc1 · August 2004

Well here is a video of the CL65 vs the Bentley and the Aston:

http://www.ic.sunysb.edu/Stu/kpouliki/cl65_0001.wmv

Not much of a contest at the track.

M

Mr_Shiftright · August 2004

I think the Ferrari won heavily on subjective feelings and reactions, which is really understandable. There is nothing that feels and drives and sounds and looks like a Ferrari--it is really in a different universe than any other car, even if the others cars are as fast, etc. So the subjective input factor really favors the Ferrari since it has so much personality. Call it "car charisma" or something. Maybe it's just a trick and partially irrational but it seems to work on some people. Works for me anyway. I think Ferraris are unique in a world where unique cars are getting rarer and rarer.

As for the Bentley, that marque has been mediocre since the day Rolls Royce bought it some 70 odd years ago, and it seems that while new owners have improved it mightily, it is still not good enough vis a vis the competition. "The more things change, the more they etc. etc."

Once you lose your crown in the automotive world, it's very hard to get it back again it seems.

ajvdh · August 2004

Yeah, but it only took 8 guys to out-pull it.

And what car did all three editors choose - hint: It was the most Ferrari-like one of the three.

tsaupe1 · August 2004

I completely agree that the Ferrari won on subjective points. After all, isn't that really how we make almost all automotive decisions. Sure, we play the numbers games, and we try very hard to be practical. However, I think that most often we end up using all that information just to justify purchases to ourselves. If you want a Bentley, you're going to buy one. You'll find some way to make the specs and reviews justify your decision.

On another note. I'm sad to say that my wife was unable to get spy photos of the new 360 replacement while in Maranello the past few weeks. Unfortunately she had to settle for watching Schumi and Badoer testing the F1 car on Fiorano. What a shame! I guess we'll just have to go back soon for another try.

andys120 · August 2004

Anyone see the computer-generated 420 Modena coupe in the August R&T?
It had a grille slot stretching across the lower front of the car instead of the oversize ducts on either side on the 360, IOTW it was an improvement aesthetically.

I hope the new Modena ends up looking like that.

andys120 · August 2004

appears in the new Road and Track for September, the 600 Imola slated, sez R&T, to replace the 575 Maranello.

It's a frontal "shot" and shows a strong resemblance to the 612 with slighly more aggressive shapes and detailing.

I'm glad they're planning to replace the somewhat generic looking Maranello with something that looks classically Ferrari without being "retro".
If the sim isn't an accurate portrayal of the next Ferrari GT I'll be surprised, it looks very credible.

andys120 · August 2004

on the '06 600 Imola, less clear than the R&T shot, but less virtual...

http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?n=178&sid=178&a- - rticle=7186

The Lehmann photo lacks the center hood scoop seen on the R&T virtual shot but there appears to be a bra or something covering the hood. You can clearly see the 612-like headlights and the agressive grille shape that distinguishes the 600 from the 612.

There's no Corvette like-cove along the side of the Imola in any shot that I've seen. It looks like they need something to break up that side.

I wish the R&T shot was online but so far it isn't.

tsaupe1 · August 2004

This is from the Ferrari Owner's site press release regarding the new car. Sorry, can't capture the pictures, but it's very 360 like.

"The F430 hails the arrival of a new generation of Ferrari 8-cylinder engines. The new model takes Ferraris extraordinary achievements with aluminium construction technology, which started with the 360 Modena, to a whole new level and offers a series of extremely significant innovations directly derived from the Prancing Horses Formula 1 single-seaters.
Two of these innovations are world firsts for production cars: the electronic differential (E-DIFF) initially developed by Ferrari for its F1 single-seaters but now adapted to the needs of a high performance road car, and the steering wheel-mounted commutator switch (better known to the Scuderias drivers as the manettino) which the driver uses to select the integrated systems governing vehicle dynamics.
The other main characteristics of the new Ferrari F430 are its light, compact 4,300cc 90° V8 engine which punches out 490 hp to achieve a specific horse power of 114 bhp/litre, guaranteeing the new Ferrari berlinetta a weight-to-power ratio of 2.8 kg/hp (dry weight); a braking system with optional carbon-ceramic discs for optimal efficiency even after severe and prolonged braking; a Formula 1-derived gearbox that cuts gear shifting times to 150 milliseconds, allowing the driver to make the very most of a truly high performance car (0-100 km/h acceleration in four seconds flat, a top speed in excess of 315 km/h); and lastly, sophisticated aerodynamics that adopt the very latest racing developments, especially in terms of the flat underbody and big rear diffuser to increase downforce. "

sphinx99 · August 2004

andys120 · August 2004

Indeed very 360-like....

http://autoweek.com/news.cms?newsId=100673

tsaupe1 · August 2004

Well, considering that people are still lining up for 360's and 360 CS models, I suppose you could make the case for not making dramatic changes in a winning design. As always, I'll reserve final judgement for when I see it in the flesh.

A friend should be taking delivery of his CS this week. I wonder if he thinks he should have waited? Would you?

sphinx99 · August 2004

Sometimes cars continue to sell despite not necessarily being at the top of their class. The F360 in recent years hasn't lost any of its gloss, but it does appear to have lost some of its class-leading verve. It's a Ferrari so it makes great Ferrari noises, but by seemingly all accounts the Gallardo is simply the better car on the race track. The Ford GT also offers an elevated performance envelope, and there's a brand new 911 showing up and, presumably, the revised Turbos to follow. I recently saw a video pitting a 360CS against a Gallardo, a M3 CSL, a NSX Type R, and a Murcielago on a curvy race track in Japan, and the 360CS came in last.

So in that sense I think the Modena replacement is needed. I also think that its power output is incredible. 114hp/L (or whatever it is) may not necessarily be the highest specific output in the land, but it's truly extraordinary when you consider that this is a big honkin' V8.

Looking at 2005 in my mind I clearly see the S2000 having the top 4-banger, the M3 with the top 6-banger, and the Carrera GT with the top V10. I haven't been sure about eight-cylinder engines but after reading the design on this new powerplant, I think Ferrari has a lock on the V8 with the new Modena.

tsaupe1 · September 2004

It's been another extraordinary season for Ferrari in F1. If any of you watched the race at Monza, it's perfectly obvious as to why they are sop dominant, best cars, both in speed and reliability, and the best drivers. Schumacher is unquestionably head and shoulders above the rest and Rubens' drive on Sunday showed how well he can do when he puts everything into it and is out of Schumi's shadow.

As the season winds down, Luca Di M., is again making noises about the financial in equities in F1 and how Ferrari might pull out. Obviously, this is posturing, but, if they were to quit F1 altogether, where would you like to see them put their emphasis. What racing form or series would either benefit from Ferrari involvement or best be enlivened by direct factory involvement of the kind Ferrari has in F1?

Mr_Shiftright · September 2004

NASCAR? Just kidding.

I can't imagine Ferrari pulling out of F1. If my memory serves, they have NEVER missed an F1 season since the company began.

tsaupe1 · September 2004

Oh, agreed. I can't imagine Ferrari out of F1 or F1 without Ferrari. Obviously, this is all part of the constructors posturing which has been on going for the past two seasons as they try and get Bernie to loosen the purse strings.

But their commitment to F1 has meant that they no longer have factory participation elsewhere. Frankly, I miss them in sportscars, I'd love to see them in ALMS prototypes, especially if Porsche would get off their butts and rejoin as well. Although it never went well for the Scuderia, I miss that rivalry and would love to see a rematch!

andys120 · September 2004

Ferrari belongs in long distance sports car racing as much as F1. They left with their tail between their legs in the 70s and it's high time they redeemed themselves.

Aston-Martin is going for the GT class next year with their beautiful DBR-9. Prodrive will run 575 Maranello GTCs in a quasi-factory effort.

Hopefully they'll step up to LMP and tackle w Audi and Porsche.

andys120 · September 2004

Speed Channel's subject in Behind the Headlights tonight was the 166 MM (Barchetta) which Luigi Chinetti convinced Ferrari to enter in the 1949 LeMans 24 hour.

Ferrari wasn't much interested because he preferred building Grand Prix racers but Chinetti convinced him to do it, Chinetti drove the little 2-liter V12 to victory, Ferrari's first major victory, and it occurred before the advent of Formula One in 1950.

tsaupe1 · September 2004

Drat! I wanted to see that show but forgot to set the VCR. Hopefully, as is their usual want, Speed will replay it soon.

andys120 · September 2004

Weds night at 8pm, the Monterey Historic Races featuring loads of Ferrari and other vintage racing greats.

I'll bet it's more interesting than the Chinese Grand Prix the promo aired in.

andys120 · September 2004

The Speed Channel Monterey Historics show was worth it just to see those GTOs piling thru the corkscrew @ Laguna Seca, what a sight!

tsaupe1 · October 2004

Saw the show last night and, now more than ever, I'm sorry I couldn't get out there for the events this year. Andy you're right, it was worth just to see all those GTOs and F1 cars on track. I wish they had concetrated more on some of the race coverage though.

andys120 · October 2004

the Oct.'04 Octane has a round-up of all the Ferrari 250 models from '55 (Mille Miglia) to '64 (Lusso). Great stuff about my favorite Ferraris.

Tom, the October Classic and Sports Cars has a good article on one of our favorites, the 330 GTC illustrated by photos of a really nice bright metallic blue car.

tsaupe1 · October 2004

Andy, I picked up the Octane issue the other day. The photographs are beautiful! I wish the writing had been up to the same standards. A bit cursory for my taste.

The new Forza has some interesting stuff in it this month including a gentleman in France who has been using his GTO as a daily driver for years. Funny there are issues of Forza which I take a glance at, perhaps read a couple of short articles, and then put away, and others that I read from cover to cover. The magazine seems to lack some consistency.

I'll have to pick up Classic and Sports Cars. I love the 330 GTC. Recently I was at Boston Sports Car, where I have my car serviced, and they had a 365 GTC in for an alignment. Rare as hen's teeth. It basically a 330 body with slight nose and hood mods (slightly larger grill opening, etc.) with a 365 engine/drivetrain. I think they built about a dozen of them towards the end of the 330 run.

Actually, it was a good day over there. Also in the shop was the '52 250 PA Prototype, a '56 (?) Benz 300 SL roadster (prettier than a gullwing) and the new Lambo Murcielago Barchetta press car. I have to admit, the Lambo was exciting, but I'd have jumped over it to get to either the Benz or the 250 (a prototype yet!).

andys120 · October 2004

FORZA item about the GTO daily driver. I agree about the lack of detailed analysis in the 250 article and I'm not sure all their facts are straight but it's one of the few places I've seen all those 250 types together.

tsaupe1 · October 2004

Nice write up on the new 8 cylinder car on Edmunds. Let's see, the 612 is reasonabley new, deliveries are taking place and pretty soon we'll start seeing them on the street. So i guess the next new car, revamp or what ever is a replacement for the 575 M. As soon as we see a 575 Barchetta we'll know its days are numbered. How do we replace another great series of cars? Front mounted 12? Midships? Paddles only? Baby Enzo? What's next?

andys120 · October 2004

of the 575 replacement called the 600, I think it was in a recent Road & Track. It looks much like a 612 (an improvement IMO).

Dunno where they go after that except that there are new Maseratis coming out (Crossover & new Coupe/Spider)

It looks much like a 612 (an improvement IMO)

andys120 · October 2004

a good day. I saw a very nice silver 456M parked in front of a rinky dink looking local tire store. It was parked in the driveway w a motorcycle and no other vehicles around.

I thought both vehicles complemented each other nicely. We only see F-cars two or three times yearly in Concord NH.

tsaupe1 · October 2004

Last Sunday was likely the last run for the FCA/NE folks. It was a drive through the country side ending at Ferrari New England for lunch and viewing the Brazilian GP. About 50 cars showed, ranging from 3X8s and 355s to TRs. We even had a definitly not street-legal 355 challenge car running with straight pipes. Somehow the owner had talked a NH repair plate off of someone. It sounded beautiful, although the folks in some of the neighborhoods we went through might not have agreed.

The ride went well, right up until we hit the police roadblock. No tickets issued, but some stern finger shaking was done.

While at FoNE, I looked at a 512 Boxer on the showroom floor. Although the price was reasonable, there were several questions about the car. For one thing, the seat wear didn't match the indicated mileage on the odo. I'll take a pass on it. Besides, Boxers are notorious for service, constant and expensive.

For those of you in the NE area, Peter Wright, who wrote an excellent book on Ferrari F1, will be lecturing December 4th at the Lars Anderson Museum of transportation in Brookline, MA. As I get more details, I'll keep you posted.

T

billymay · November 2004

I'm looking at a couple of '87 328GTS, both with approximately 40K miles. Both are California cars with clean Carfax, legit service records. One was stripped and repainted. The other is nearly pristine and original. Both are priced in the mid $40K's.

Question for all of you: Is a 328 with 40K a few years away from being a parts car? I plan on using this as a weekend car only - figure 2-3K miles per year. I've talked to the service manager at the local Ferrari dealer, and I'm OK with the maintenance costs and schedule. However, I've read horror stories about Ferrari engines needing a rebuild before 50,000 miles.

Any input appreciated -- I'm a Mercedes and BMW guy, never owned an F-car before. Oh wait, a Fiat X1/9 in high school. Mid-engined F-car. Vroom vroom. ;-)

Ferrari-the Ultimate classic (Ferrari Lovefest Topic)

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