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Nissan Maxima v. Mazda Millenia
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Comments
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That is precisely why it does not work. To properly work it must allow the ACTUAL price you will pay for the car. As I have laid out very plainly. It is off by approximately 25% in my case. If you consider that accurate, fine. I consider it useless.
It works only for that one "median" person. For everyone else, depending on the degree above or below that hypothetical median TMV value, it gets further and further inaccurate. That also distorts taxes and etc.
I am sorry, I can also do math, and it has served me well for many decades.
TCO simply does not accurately reflect the TCO it is named for.
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Some simple math. Two identical cars with the same MSRP and invoice.
The best deal I can get on car A at dealer number one is $200 under MSRP.
At another dealer I can get car B for $4000 below invoice.
TCO would not take those figures into account, and would give identical TCO's for the two. In reality, there is about $7000 difference to start with, with further distortion due to the difference in sales tax.
With no other discrepincies thrown in, TCO is already incorrect by $7000.
You can say that scenario is impossible. WRONG. It happened to me at two Mazda dealerships less than 20 miles apart.
I would propose that you you would never have done the deal at dealer A above. Most people transact around the the TMV value. I agree that the more they stray above or below, the TCO will be off. No doubt. The key is that this new TCO gives the consumer a pretty good guide to navigate through anticipated expenses. Knowing Edmunds, they will allow the consumer to further tailor the numbers in future versions. Frankly, I like it a lot. It is much, much better than Intellichoice Total Cost Of Ownership on numerous fronts.
I can't wait to see what they come up with next.
fwatson, enjoy the rest of the weekend.
Thanks, you do the same.
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"Good Bets and Reliability Risks are compiled from overall-reliability data covering 1994 through 2001 models with better-than or much-worse-than-average reliability. We included only the models for which we have sufficient data for at least three model years. Models that were brand new in 2000 or 2001 do not appear on these lists. Problems with the engine, engine cooling, transmission, and drive system were weighted more heavily than other problems."
http://aolsvc.aol.consumerreports.org/autos/crauto17.html
I believe that both cars are great, but they are somewhat different.
Exterior styling goes to the Millenia IMO, it has always been a beautiful design, although it's getting long in the tooth. The Maxima is not ugly IMO, but the rear end design is just keep getting uglier. I don't know why Nissan opted for the clear tail treatment on the Maxima. The "full moon" red and black taillights looked much better than the all clear tails. On light colors (Sunlit sand, Glacier Pearl, Tungsten Blue, Sterling Mist) it doesn't look so bad, but on the Black Maxima, it's downright odd looking IMO.
Interior design goes to the Maxima IMO, especially the SE with leather and the GLE. The Millenia's interior doesn't look bad or anything, but the Maxima's interior is more refined with slightly better interior materials, plus with leather equipped Maximas, you get a driver's memory seat.
Features
Both are about even on features, but the Maxima might have the slight edge here also. I like both cars in this respect.
Power
Definately goes to the Maxima. The Millenia just doesn't as much power(really doesn't matter much to me.)
My pick?!?!?!?!?:
Probably the Maxima SE: Why? Well because I like manual transmission, which aren't available for the Millenia. Resale want matter much to me on either car because really the Maximas value really isn't all that good compared to the Accord or Passat. I keep hearing people say "This is the last year of the Millenia" Well, the Maxima gets complete redesigned next year, and is said to be nothing like the previous model.
BUT...........
If I were looking for cars with an automatic transmission, I'd be looking at the Millenia S. I can get one here in Greenville for $8,000 off MSRP! You cannot get the Maxima that cheap. Although I have been offered $5000 off MSRP.
Bottom line, both cars are nice cars, and can hold their own aganist each other.
Also, I heard people complaining about the Millenia's age,isn't the Maxima still using the same platform from 1995? I know that it had been updated, but still isn't it basically about 7 years old now? Also,the new Maxima doesn't look much different from the 1995 model, which I think was uglier than the current models.
The Max interior suits me fine with two exceptions. The clock, which is styled to echo the side marker exterior lights just doesn't seem to belong. And the driver seat in the SE was much too firm for my taste.
These are obviously subjective views, and I agree they are both fine, desirable cars, although quite different in their execution.
Don't take my comments about the Max wrong! I like the new Max, the engine is smooth and robust its exterior is bland yet "clean" and not busy. I opted for the Millenia because of Nissan's pricing/option structure it's downright rediculous! I couldn't justify paying such a rip off price for the Top-of-line loaded Maxima. I do acknowledge that the Max can be loaded with some real high-end equipment though that adds a lot of class to it.
To briefly address the interior quality comments, neither of the two cars interior qualities/parts are more refined than the other! That issue is simply a matter of personal taste.
My bottom line statement: "They're both great cars!"
What state do you live in? If you're close, I'd love to prove it.
And no, I know it's not a Ferrari, but why is it I sound silly and immature when defending against acabral1's ... umm... mis-statement?
http://applications.edmunds.com/products/vc/VehicleComparison
Try a comparison... I picked my 6-speed v your S/C and it's showing 1.9 second difference in 0-60. You think 60 to 120 would be any different? I'll give you a clue...NO.
Call me what you want, compare 'style' and 'fit/finish' to death. There is no comparing engines in these cars so stop.
Why not judge a car for what it was designed for, not for what you want. If you want more power than MM has, buy something else. It simply was not designed to be a race car.
The 2.5L class of engines are used extensively in Europe and Japan as well as most of the world outside the USA, Canada and Australia.
If people want to make power comparisons, they need to compare similar size engines. By the way, what people are interpreting as low HP is mostly low rpm torque.
The MM is very European in concept and execution. I believe the target for Mazda was BMW, Audi etc with the smaller displacement engines. Other than stoplight grand prix, and back highway drag racing, there is no reason for the larger engines, other than to satisfy a mental image or ego trip for the owners of the overpowered cars. Being old enough to have been driving for over 48 years, I can remember the late '50s, '60s and ealy '70's American muscle car craze. It went away with the big oil crisis of the '70s. Japan, especially Nissan are just emulating that fad. It too will pass.
When I was a teenager through maybe my thirties I also thought more power = better car. I have since learned better, and the 170 HP of my P is more than sufficient for everything a street car is designed to do. And it does it very smoothly and satisfyingly for those of us who do not feel that need to drag race on public streets.
I was just responding to acabral1's (109) and nved's (112) posts.
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That is true. However it insinuates that the Mazda engines are not. I have several times posted links to proof that the Max engine is not more reliable than the Mazda engines. That is a myth. I have also posted a link showing the Mazda engine to be adaptable to racing. And from personal experience, I can tell you the 2.5 is so smooth it is hard to tell if it is running at idle.
It seems you must have missed those links, so here they are again.
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Carpoint Reliability Ratings
Millenia http://carpoint.msn.com/vip/UsedRelOver/Mazda/Millenia/Used.asp
Max http://carpoint.msn.com/vip/UsedRelOver/Nissan/Maxima/Used.asp
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Mazda V-6 Engines
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/dorothy.bradbury/probemx/index.htm
You will also find that there are some very fine engines missing from Wards Best 10 List. I consider that list similar to Mortor Trend and Car & Driver top 10 lists. A reasonable guide, but hardly comprehensive.
In regards to reliability, I never implied that the VQ is more reliable than the Madza engine. All I know is that the VQ is reliable, and I hope the Madza engine is reliable as well, cuz I have a good 4 years left on my MM lease.
BTW Nissan does make a 2.5L V6 VQ (VQ25DD) but it is not available in any U.S. cars so we can't really compare.
Speed
my 2 dimes
Speed
The 2.5L has "RECOMMENDED" 93 octane fuel, but in real life is perfectly happy on 87 octane. That is at least 20 cents per gallon difference on gasoline prices at most filling stations. Fuel milage is virtually identical between the two.
The P comes with 16 inch instead of 17 inch wheels, which puts a little more cushion between you and the road, but I have seen no complaints from S drivers about the ride quality. You might say S=sporty ride as compared to P=plush ride. The S also has anti-sway bars both front and rear, while the P has only a rear bar.
I included the wheel info, because it is directly associated with your engine choice. Although you can put 17 inch wheels on the P if you want to, I don't think they are a listed option.
As you can see, there is more involved than an engine choice between the S and P.
Both engines are just about bullet proof, so drive both and see if the extra power is important to you, then take your pick. They are both great cars at givaway prices, so check at least three dealers to get your best deal. I ran into a completely dishonest dealer who wanted to talk MSRP, and the next gave me the rock bottom out the door price.
Happy car hunting.
Quote: "My wife ,however, found the passenger seat to be the worst that she has sat in."
Maybe she wasn't aware it is 8 way power adjustable.
My wife's was with the Maxima SE drivers seat. When she sat down, she got a startled look on her face and asked, "why is the seat so hard". She is used to the over stuffed seats in her Oldsmobile 88. I then tried it and found it too firm, but acceptable.
As a 60 yr old with hemhoroids (more than you needed to know ),and I have driven my '01 MM P 5300 miles in total comfort ( 350 mile + stretches ) except for the arthritis in my right knee that complains when I am on cruise control, for lack of a good place to rest it. I have the same problem driving her '95 Olds 88, so it is not a MM problem.
At any rate, enjoy whatever you get. But I can assure you that you are missing out on the best new car deal available by passing up the MM.
That works out well. I love my Millenia, and my wife wants to get rid of her Oldsmobile for a Mazda MPV.
1. My Millenia has 112K miles on it. Not one thing has broken down. The maxima has 11k miles on it and already has been to the dealer twice, once with a leaking engine oil seal, and second with a malfunctioning airconditioner.
2. The millenia has no rattles. The maxima has several.
3. While the maxima has more power and a smoother auto transmission, the millenia's power is quite exceptional, especially when accelerating from say 60-90mph. The automatic transmission of the millenia could be smoother and it is a bit slow to downshift. However, the millenia handles better than the maxima at high speeds, especially while negotiating a curbve. The maxima's tail seems to have a mind of its own, while the millenia stays firmly planted despite slight body sway. The maxima's body structure and chassis is not on par with its engine.
4. The interior of the millenia, in my opinion, is more tasteful and elegant. The automatic air conditioning system works exceptionally well (as opposed to the maxima's), and the auto tilt is a feature that is very easy to get used to.
5. I think that the pre 2001 millenia, especially the 95-98 models (with the original grill), are extremely elegant looking. The maxima is ugly, especially from the rear. Looks do matter.
All said and done, I prefer my ols 95 millenis S to my new maxima despite the latter's power advantage.
With 7000 flawless miles on my new Millenia, I have absolutely no reservations. I am totally convinced I got the better of the two cars.
Just go read the Honda boards.
I was not in love with the tail end of the car yet a friend that saw my new car looked at the rear and said "I really love the back end, its so different"
To each his own.
I was trying to say that I think most people who buy Accords and Camrys buy them NOT for their looks(as neither are lookers), but for other qualities they possess(or think they possess). Then, I was trying to get him to deduce that maybe you bought the Max for other reasons, other than looks - just like ppl who buy Camcords...
I just bought the Max because IMO, it is the best car available for the money. For a lot more money I could have gotten a better car for sure but I found no other car had the combination of options, comfort, performance and looks that I liked better. And that seems to be the view of most Maxima owners I have been in contact with. Maxima... the BEST car for the money.
BTW... What car do you have? Max or Mil?
I love Mazdas though, thats why I patrol the Mazda boards. I like the Maxima too but its a little to big for me I think. Although its cool that they have a manual V6 option though. I couldn't drive an automatic, which is why I like Mazdas, they are pretty good about having a standard as an option in most of their cars.
My sister-in-law has an '89 Maxima that is in pristine condition and has had very few problems, so I know they're good cars. I like the design of that model year too. I like the current Maxima too, its conservative but not boring like the Camry and Accord.
But, I'm waiting for the MAZDA6 hatchback to come out before I really start shopping though. Its hard to wait though because it seems they are giving away Maximas, Altimas, Millenias, 626s, Accords, just about everything.
My wife and I seriously considered a 2002 Max for her but instead purchsed a V6 Honda Accord. It has virtually all the features of a MM or Max GLE for only $22,500. Yeah, it looks like millions of other cars on the road but it is a terrific value and a very nice car to drive.
So, over a year ago I picked Mazda Millenia S as the better car - in my opinion - and cheaper, too. It has complicated engine... that delivers 100% in the power department, costs me $23 for oil change, and gets me 28mpg on the highway. And it looks soooo much better than the 25 Maximas in my company's parking lot!
Cheers,
Tomek
P.S. Isn't the Maxima completely redesigned for 2003 or 2004? They did it because it's not competitive anymore... :-)
-Getz
I test drove both Millenia S and Maxima SE and GLE in the summer of 2001, and AT THAT TIME MY PERSONAL PREFERENCE was by FAR the Millenia. Two significant factors in favor of the Millenia: it was effortless, straight and true on the highway like a German car (both Maximas I drove required countless small steering correction all the time to keep them going straight... just like the 1990 Stanza I once had - with which, by the way - the Maxima still shares significant number of switchgear elements), and it cornered much better than the Maxima. Millenia stayed completely flat, and I was comfortably going 10-15% faster around corners than in the Maxima. Acceleration wise it was more than enough for me.
Both Maximas also had a lot more road noise - that's a factor for me, too.
Take it easy,
Tomek
P.S. Sorry for the uppercase, but I'm trying to make a point. Again.
Later
-getz
:-)
Tomek
in 2001 I did test drive Acura TL, and TL-S, and Maxima. Plain and simple, for the money, Millenia S was the best deal AND I liked it the most. I won't go into details and analyze it to death, but ... the Maxima was just plain awful (IMHO!, before you start flaming), TL had a seat I hated (you don't sit in it, you're perched on it - I just wouldn't be able to live with it) and TL-S was 8-9K more than the Millenia when my trade was considered.
Now, how can you compare it to BMW 330i? That's a $45K car. $45K!!! Almost 2 Millenias S. And they do sell it within $1.5K within sticker. BTW, today at lunch I test drove BMW 325i (2002 leftover) and yes, it's a nice car - but it has a fatal (again, for me) flaw - the thing revs at 3600+ RPM going 70-75mph. Try to take it on a longer trip, and you'll vibrate for hours after getting out of the car. The sticker was only $33.5 :-)
So, is Acura NSX a better car than the Millenia? Sure... unless you want to put 2 pairs of skis in it !!! And it's not selling well, and it is being redesigned. How did you end up comparing it with the Millenia again? Never mind.
OK?
Tomek
The Millenia is still a remarkable car.
Funny thing happen the other day-I was in the Trumbull Mall (Connecticut) and the three cars were parked next to each other.The Bimmer,The TL and The Millenia.Out of no where my wife says to me "WOW, thats a nice looking car".The Millenia caught her eye instantly and to be honest with you,it really was the better looking car.