Ford Mustang (2004 and earlier)

baggs32 · December 2004

I wonder how all those Thuderbird buyers who paid $10K over MSRP are feeling about right now?

Is that "Thud"erbird as in how the residuals have hit the floor with a big "thud" over the past year or so?

I know, no pun intended.

graphicguy · December 2004

LOL!

I think '05 is the last year for the 'Bird. That's a shame considering it was based othe the very good Jag/Lincoln platform. I drove one from a Hertz rental, and it wasn't a bad car. It wasn't a great car, either. Headroom was atrocious and it felt "loosy-goosy" on the road. A little more development time on the suspension and a sticker that was $7K less and they might have had a "hit" on their hands.

My guess is within the next 2 months, as production ramps up, you'll have plenty of Mustangs, in every color and configuration on dealer's lots. I would think that Ford will have to get into the "rebate" game with them in a few months, too. They've got a "hit" with the new Mustang and they'll be cranking them out as fast as they can with the typical overproduction that has been the hallmark of U.S. manufacturers.

This isn't a "limited production" car. The Mustang is a "volume" model.

As mentioned before, my sister is a Ford employee. She said Ford wants production to exceed demand of Mustangs to make up for the "duds" in their line-up. Ford has to keep the production plants "churning" to make a profit this year. With SUV sales tailing off, they have to produce what's hot to get in the black.

Look for $1,000-$2,000 rebates on the Mustang in short order if you're willing to wait.

I've already seen new Mustangs on Hertz's rental lots.

mschmal · December 2004

Don't forget, Ford has backed off big time from the Fleet/Rental Market of which the Mustang was a mainstay. It was the rentals that really killed the residuals.

Suppoedly the factory is at full steam but there are some comodities limitations. You can only order the interior upgrade package on a GT for them moment.

Also to get the side air bags you must take the red leather interior.

My dealership has yet to have more than one 05 on the lot at a time or keep one for more than a week. Every one is paying sticker and X-Plan is not offered.

FMCC is giving the V6 a residual of 50% after 3 years and a little more fot the GT

Mark

graphicguy · December 2004

I can only offer anecdotal evidence, but I was at the Hertz rental facility at the Miami airport on Wednesday picking up my rental Taurus. I'd say they had 10 new Mustangs waiting to be picked up by customers.

So, from just one data point, I'd say they are going to flood the Hertz lots with them.

That said, I didn't see one GT rental. They were all V6 models.

More anecdotal evidence....at least in southern OH, there are two Ford dealerships within 10 miles of me. Both have at least 4-6 new Mustangs in front of their new car lot for sale all week..I've not looked at them closely, so I don't know if they're V6 or GT models.

Again, that's not to say the new Mustang is a bad product, just that Ford is going to be producing these in high numbers, including selling to fleet and rental companies.

john_324 · December 2004

Hertz (Ford) hasn't rented V8 Mustangs since the days of the Shelby GT-350H unfortunately. They're all V6 autos these days. But they're still fun, since (as PJ ORourke pointed out) the best handling cars around are rental cars: you can take turns harder, accelerate with more abandon, shift into reverse at a higher rate of speed, etc. than in any car you might own... ; )

bottgers · December 2004

I like the retro looks of the '05 'Stang, and I have to say Ford got almost everything right with this car......except the engine. I know I'll probably take some flack for saying this, but I've never been a supporter of the 4.6 engine. Ford did a good job of getting as much from this engine as possible, but I believe to make the Mustang a true muscle car would require a version of the 5.8 (351 ci) engine.

When GM was still producing their LS-1 powered F-bodies, the one advantage these cars always had over the Mustangs was torque. The LS-1 was, and still is a torque monster. Personally, I think they were more fun to drive because of this. Ford could solve this problem by installing the 5.8 in the 'Stang. That's all I'll say about the new 'Stang, and you can go ahead and tell me what's wrong with my opinion.

qbrozen · December 2004

By the way, Mustangs are flying off dealer lots in less than 1-days turn-around time, the fastest in the auto industry!

fastest in the auto industry? interesting perspective. I guess you could say that since you can't get much faster than "less than 1 day," but it shares that spot with every new hot car of the moment that has been produced in all of automotive history. Rest assured, like I and others have said here, once Ford satisfies all those folks pounding down the dealership doors right now, sales will cool and inventory will start piling up.

Ford Five Hundred has 50% residual value in 3-years, just like Toyota & Honda

You mean to say the Ford 500 has a PROJECTED residual value of 50%. We'll see what really happens, but i just may keel over from shock if the car is really worth half its MSRP 3 years from now.

graphicguy · December 2004

Yeah....I'd like to see any 500 owner get 50% of its original new value 36 months from now. From my perspective, I think the 500 will do little, if at all better than the Taurus it replaces in the resale dept.

I don't think anyone who is buying the Mustang now should have any illusions as to its worth down the used road. The people who bought the first GTOs, the first PT Crusiers, the first Mini Coopers (although, those are holding their value pretty well) and paid MSRP or above should be surprised by their value (or lack thereof) in 3,4 or 5 years from the date of their purchase.

I can walk right into any Chrysler store right now and buy a PT Cruiser for about $14K-$15K. Those that bought them for 2X that price (and some did), paid for the privilege to have the first ones on their block. They didn't buy hefty resale, though.

The new Mustang is in that same category. Matter of fact, there is also some evidence that production has already caught up with demand if seeing them pile up on dealers lots, as I have, is any indication.

Still, that does not make the new Mustang a bad car, by any stretch.

mschmal · December 2004

Maybe the only exception to the depreciation rule is the 350z they are going for new car sticker used or almost because so many people are paying over sticker.

Mark

mschmal · December 2004

The T-bird started out as a 2 seater. Ford quickly realized that there just wasn't enough of a market for 2 seaters and quickly when to a 2+2. Based on this experience, I don't understand how they expected things to have changed that much that a 2 seater would now be viable in the US market.

People only consider 2 seaters to be an "extra" car. In my opinion the peeps who can afford an "extra" car as expensive as the Thunderbird don't have Ford aspirations.

I think if the Mazda Miata was any more expensive it wouldn't work.

Of course the exception seems the be the 350z and the Corvette but those are true sports cars and the Thunderbird isn't.

Notice that the Infiniti G35 coupe which is more of a Thunderbird competitor is a 2+2, as is the Acura.

Mark

qbrozen · December 2004

I find that a little hard to believe since, just looking at carsdirect, I can pick up a base '05 350z for $900 under msrp and a performance model for $1500 under. And that's '05s! Meaning that deals will only get better as the year progresses and the '06s start looming.

tennessee · December 2004

I just towed an '05 GT Mustang home from the dealership and I wanted to share my impressions from my first weekend with the car. I currently own a '66 289 auto coupe, a '93 5.0 5-speed convertible, and the new GT. I appreciate the styling of the new GT because of its use of my favorite styling cues from Mustangs past. Driving the car is as much fun as looking at it. It feels fast, tight, crisp handling, and has a wonderful sound. I paid $25,700 (MSRP). I'm so glad I didn't pay for options such as low-grade leather seats, metal-sheathed interior that glares bad,or a 1000 watt stereo that fills the trunk with a subwoofer. The 500 watt stereo sounds great. Don't worry about the future residual value of the cars, the bottom will fall out of every car you buy anyway. I wouldn't pay over MSRP though. Waiting will save you some money, but you never know what tomorrow brings.

baggs32 · December 2004

Matter of fact, there is also some evidence that production has already caught up with demand if seeing them pile up on dealers lots, as I have, is any indication.

Are you seeing GTs too? I've noticed them piling up on some lots around here too but every single one is a V6 ATX. Which really makes sense as the V6 with MTX has been on hold for a month or two.

The one GT I saw on a lot was gone by the next day and I haven't seen one since on any lots or in their inventories. Believe me, I've tried. The recent winter weather probably isn't helping move those V6 copies off the lots either.

Production should catch up soon but it's going to slow down again when they put the vert online in early Feb.

graphicguy · December 2004

I've seen a few GTs on the lots around here this weekend. But, as you say, most are AT V6s on the lots.

For grins, I stopped into one local dealership to peruse one jet black and one red GT they had in their showroom. I asked the salesperson what they were selling for. He said they were "hot models" and pointed to the MSRP sticker. I laughed and started to walk out. He stopped me and said, "make us an offer". I'll assume I could have bought one of them for something under MSRP, but don't really know.

350z sales are cold as ice around southern OH. Lots of '03s-'04s on the used lots. You can make deals on them all day long. Same can be said for the RX8s (although I've yet to see a used one for sale). Sports car sales, in general, aren't great in the winter around here anyway.

vandil · December 2004

Spent a solid 2 weeks shopping dealers in WI. Talked with roughly 20 of them. The most 05's any dealer had on the lot was 4, 3 of which were sold. With a single white GT Premium available. A majority did have 1-2 sixers available. All the dealers stated they were selling extremely well.

Out of the 20 half wanted MSRP, with a couple over MSRP and a couple under. Did manage to find one willing to order in for a couple hundred under invoice though. Quoted delivery time was 6-10 weeks. Though I'm guessing 8-12 is probably closer to actual from what I've been reading.

graphicguy · December 2004

As the dealer's lots fill-up, I'd bet you can make a deal at towards Dec 30th or 31st. If not, hold out until the end of January. My guess is sales will be slow and production will be in full gear by then allowing you a better selection and a better price.

texas_ford_guy · December 2004

as for loads of gts piling up on dealer lots by the end of january....dont hold your breath. at full capacity, there would be about 5 gts per dealer per month by my math. as for the 50% residual on a five hundred, it is not an estimate of the value if you buy it, it is the number used if you do a 36 month lease. if it's not worth that much after 36 months, who cares?...let ford eat the loss the same way the [non-permissible content removed] manufacturers do. if you think a japaneese car can hold 50% after 3 years, you're dreaming. just try to trade one in and get that.

qbrozen · December 2004

yes, i pointed out in my post that the 50% is an estimated residual value, and not the real trade-in value.

if you think a japaneese car can hold 50% after 3 years, you're dreaming. just try to trade one in and get that.

I can currently get 77% for my japanese vehicle after 20 months of ownership. Considering the fact that car values drop the steepest when new, the next 16 months won't drop as much as the earlier months did, bringing my 3-year value WELL over 58%.

mschmal · December 2004

At my dealership our GT allocation is going to people who have placed orders. We won't have cars on the lot until the allocation is greater than the number of orders.

We did have one customer cancel his order since he was able to find a car on the ground.

Silver GT Premium with all options but the Shaker 1k. Should be in this week.

Mark

john_324 · December 2004

Out of curiosity, when do you think that will be? I figured as much, but have always wondered how many people placed pre-orders for the cars...

mschmal · December 2004

Its not that there is a huge number of orders as much as the fact that they are coming in just as quick as allocation...

This could just be my dealership though since 05 allocation doesn't just take in to account deliveries of 05s but over all Mustang delivery history. We still have 7 2004s left which are probably keeping our 05 allocation down a little.

Mark

qbrozen · December 2004

ford-guy: believe it or not, the bonafide money is actually higher. I used Edmunds number in my figure only because it is lower. I wasn't clear on your statement, but did you say you got an '01 S2000 for $13,500? Where is this? How many miles? I'd buy that in a heartbeat! As a matter of fact, an '01 was just run by Terry on the Real-World Trade-in Values board, and here is the results: rroyce10, "Real-World Trade-In Values" #23795, 19 Dec 2004 8:10 am. Now that one only has 9K miles, so that helps alot, but a $4K difference would add up to ALOT of miles. I just did a search within 100 miles of my location for all S2000s and the only one that came up even CLOSE to that was $15K and that has a salvage title. The next up is $19K with 70K miles.

Baggs - $4K-$4500 for an 8-year-old Civic is certainly nothing to sneeze at. Heck, my 6-year-old Volvo, which cost 3 times the price of a Civic when new, is only fetching $6K as a trade-in. So figure they will be very close when both are 8 years old. Pretty amazing resale value on that Civic.

But, yes, ford-guy, I'll be the first to tell you that the books are typically optimistic. That's why I always check on the Real-World Trade-In Values board.

texas_ford_guy · December 2004

your point is made. i received an 01 s2000 silver color with 70000 miles. trade in was 13500.....no kidding. good condition other than the miles.

qbrozen · December 2004

I forget... what was the point? LOL

Even after all this, mind you, I still like the new Mustang (it IS the mustang board, after all).

kyleknicks · December 2004

your point is made. i received an 01 s2000 silver color with 70000 miles. trade in was 13500.....no kidding. good condition other than the miles.

seems like you could sell your s2000 to a dealer for 13,500, but no way you're going to be able to buy it for that price.. otherwise i would've picked one up myself

graphicguy · December 2004

mscmal...Can I assume you are a salesman at a Ford dealership?

It's snowing like crazy in southwestern OH right now. I bet I can make a below MSRP deal at the local Ford dealership right now on the two GTs they have in stock if I walked into their empty showroom with checkbook in hand.

I would feel good about making a bet that there will be more than 5 Mustang GTs/month/dealership for the MY '05. If the GT is the hot model, you can pretty much bet that Ford will crank those out at an elevated pace.

rorr · December 2004

Well, you may be able to make a swinging deal now in SW Ohio, but I did a quick internet survey of the dealers here in central Texas and this is what I found listed on their websites as current inventory:

14 dealerships checked.

Mustang GT: 7 cars (2 autos / 5 manuals)

Mustang V6: 79 cars (77 autos / 2 manuals)

As an aside, it looks as though the V6 manual model is finally being produced, but in VERY low numbers.

texas_ford_guy · December 2004

like i said...about 5 a month. trust me. heres a heck of a way to get a low price though...contact a dealer far away from where you live and have them order one....a small profit from business you would not otherwise get sounds like a good business decision to me.

rorr · December 2004

Interesting thing about inventory (especially here in Texas): when you check the Dealer's inventory of F-150 trucks against their inventory of Mustangs.....

Well, the dealer who listed the most Mustangs (17, all V6's), shows 157 F-150 trucks in stock. Another dealer who listed 12 Mustangs (again, all V6's), shows over 350 F-150 trucks in stock (and I drive by this dealer everyday; I believe that number).

Looking on the bright side: the new F-150 has been in production for a few months longer. I don't know how many of those trucks listed in stock are leftover '04s but I think the vast majority are '05s. Obviously, Ford has the production capability to keep up with (and then some) whatever demand the market may have for the new Mustangs.

Just be patient; inventory WILL build and purchase prices WILL fall.

graphicguy · December 2004

texas...not a bad suggestion at all. My father used to do that all the time. We live in the Cincinnati area. My father would call a couple of dealers as far north as Detroit. He would make a deal over the phone, ask other local dealers to match it. When they said they woudln't/couldn't (in the belief my Father would never drive 5 hours one way to buy a car), he and I would make the trip (in my car, of course). He'd drive back in his new car.

He said the same as you. A dealership would get business they wouldn't have had otherwise by him buying from out of town.

We should have this conversation about the Mustang GTs availability this time next month or in February. My guess is the selection will be quite large at the bigger dealerships.

nedc2 · December 2004

Regarding F-150 v. Mustang inventories, you have to remember that the F-150 is produced at several plants, Dearborn Assembly, Norfolk, and Kansas City, whereas the Mustang is produced only at Auto Alliance in Flat Rock MichiganI where it shares the line with the Mazda 6 series cars. Really big inventories and price cuts/rebates on the Mustang won't be coming anytime soon unless demand really tanks. And also remember the Mustang convertible is due out in a few month, and they are gorgeous.

qbrozen · December 2004

I'm really shocked at how many optimistic people there are regarding Mustang production, sales, etc. Its as if none of you have bought a Ford car before and tried to sell/trade it a few years later. I'm not bashing, mind you, I think optimism and hope are great things. I just don't possess those traits, I guess.

rorr · December 2004

Oh, I'm well aware that the F-150 is produced in several plants and the Mustang in only one. But there is a reason for that: demand for F-150 trucks (particularly here in Tx) and the profit Ford makes from them. I'm sure if sustained demand were high enough for the Mustang, Ford would SOMEHOW find a way to fill that demand.

You can't swing a dead cat around here without smacking some urbanite in his new F-150.....

Have you even known ANY model of Ford (in the last 25 years) where production was simply unable to keep up with demand 1 year after introduction? I say for those who really want a Mustang (and I certainly can understand the longing), just wait. Inventory WILL build and prices WILL fall.

mschmal · December 2004

This idea is still missing the boat. I can only order cars AFTER I get allocation. If a dealer has more orders than allocation then they will have no motivation not to insist on sticker price.

Mark

mschmal · December 2004

One out of every new vehicles sold in Texas is a Ford F-Series truck.

Mark

mschmal · December 2004

Check this out if you want to see how crazed people are about this car.

http://www.detnews.com/2004/autosinsider/0412/21/A01-37497.htm

Mark

kyleknicks · December 2004

i dont know folks... i mean, after reading the reviews and getting the feeling that the new mustangs are a hit.. afterall, its still a car... i mean, every year, there's always some hype of some new model coming out and people are paying msrp or over for these cars.. just look at the PT crusier... overtime, maybe not next month, but i'm sure in 6 months.. folks will be paying invoice or around invoice for this car.. i think there's always excitment when it comes to a new car purchase, but a car like this which plays alot into people's emotions with the 60's.. tend to make a few of us out there a lil nuts.. (example..paying more to be the first to have it)

madmax9 · December 2004

I have a 20 year old Mustang, and a 10 year old Mustang, both in tip top shape. I *know* I can get more for each one of them than a 10 year old Camry.

john_324 · December 2004

That's very true, with virtually any mid-end American car. But Mustangs are a special case I think and as such, there are some different considerations in the buying decision.

While the decision process for your average American car is largely one of economics, it's hard to think of Mustangs solely (if at all) in this fashion. I'd imagine a good amount of Mustang buyers do not consider resale at all, esp. with the 2005s; it's a car they plan to hold onto and enjoy for a long time. I still see plenty of mid-1980s Fox bodies, unmodded but well-maintained, being driven around by everyday people...

It's said that true enthusiasts don't care about resale values...they care about the enjoyment that ownership and use brings to them. So maybe Mustangs have an odd power to make enthusiasts (at least for a single car, for a while in their lives) out of everyday drivers? After all, how many people do you know that wax nostalgic about a Camry or Taurus they owned years ago?

graphicguy · December 2004

qbrozen...I'm with you on this topic. I hope all the Ford dealers get MSRP for every Mustang they sell. I just don't see it happening for much longer, though. I kind of view this the same as when the VW "New Beetle" came out. There was a flourish of "over sticker" buying. Then, just as quickly, demand tapered off once the lots began filling up and "deals" started to become prevalent.

I see the same thing happening with the Mustang. Matter of fact, I'd say it's starting already. I'm seeing stock on even the GT models starting to become easier to find at Ford dealerships.

Historically, Ford (as well as GM and Chrysler) have produced at capacity regardless of demand of any vehicle. That's the way they are set up....keep those plants humming for 3 shifts.

One of the hottest cars on the market, the Chrysler 300C Hemi, was going for MSRP and above when they were first introduced. It's pretty easy to make a deal on one now since the initial "buzz" has died down and stock is rising at the dealerships.

I've never known any U.S. brand to hold huge resale until some of the models garnered "antique" status. That said, I don't think resale of an antuque AMC Pacer will ever be much.

nedc2 · December 2004

" Historically, Ford (as well as GM and Chrysler) have produced at capacity regardless of demand of any vehicle. That's the way they are set up....keep those plants humming for 3 shifts. "

Not at Ford, not anymore. Just ask the folks at Michigan truck, Wayne Assembly, St. Thomas Assembly, Oakville...

cgalen · December 2004

I've looked at ford's own site, which links to various dealers' prices, and the odd thing is that some identical cars at the same dealerships have a base MSRP for the 2005 V6 of 19,370, while another has an MSRP at 19,770. Same cars, same features, $400 difference.

Any ideas why? I called Ford' "customer car" line and they said it's all up to the dealer, even though it's clearly the "MANUFACTURER'S" suggested price.

akirby · December 2004

I think they made some changes in base equipment due to supply problems and that could change the base MSRP. Not positive but it's possible.

john_324 · December 2004

Saw my first V6 Mustang on the road last night...in that cool lime color.

Very impressed with the sound...it sounds almost like a V8. Great job Ford.

However, I didn't care for the new rocker panel tape stripe...the "Mustang" lettering in the stripe is centered in the middle of the door, not at the front where it was historically. Just doesn't look right to me.

graphicguy · December 2004

I've yet to see any evidence that Ford is producing any differently. I see tons of F150s on dealers lots. Same way with their "new" 500 sedan.

Still looks to me like they will build all the vehicles that their plants are capable of producing, regardless of demand.

They may or may not run 3 shifts 7 days a week, but to keep plants profitable, they have to keep them humming at or very near production capacity. Otherwise, Ford (or GM) can't make any money.

That's the entire reason we've seen such big rebates become the norm in the industry.

kyleknicks · December 2004

this sunday evening.. i crashed my v6 mustang convertible on i95 in CT.. i was on the left lane, going about 55, it just started with some dusting of snow, but it had just turned dark..so i guess i could've slipped on some black ice.. but i spung from the left lane, did a 360 and landed against some the barriers along the highways that uses metal wires... all in all, the car was solid, luckily no other cars were near me.. but i need some major body work on my car.. but this is what i want to say.. if u're driving a mustang, please use snow tires.. i suspect that my front wheels hit a patch of ice, lose control..my rear wheels kept pushing, my car started to sway right to left to right.. and i lost control... oh well, time to go to the junkyard to find a front bumper, rear bumper and front left fender..

Mr_Shiftright · December 2004

You know, if it was really ICE, no tire in the world would have saved you except perhaps studded ones with serious spikes in them.

dan1 · December 2004

I drove my 87 LX 5.0 through six New England winters on regular all season performance tires. You really had to pay attention, but I never got stuck or in an accident. I remember getting caught in a blizzard going from Framingham to Cape Cod. Fifth gear at about 25 to 30 mph and the car still fish tailed on me. I should have had snow tires but I was young and didn't have lot of money. Now you couldn't pay my to drive my Mustang on the snow. Well mybe you could!

briham · December 2004

I just drove a silver GT with red interior...loved it. The exhaust sound makes you want to hear even more. I loved the throwback interior and found it interesting how Ford subtly mixed in modern technology such as a digital readout of average mpg etc. This car is a winner.

Review

http://www.automedia.com/autoReviews/2005/ford/500/rts20041101fh.- asp?affid=

silver_bullet · December 2004

I agree about that rocker panel tape - it looks bogus. Luckily, you only get it if you order the exterior sport package with the rear spoiler, and I won't be ordering my car with a spoiler. Re: the price increase, I believe the freight charge has been bumped up, possibly along with the base price of the car. My local dealer finally has a few V6 cars with manual transmissions, but I haven't been able to drive one yet - has anyone had the opportunity to drive a manual?

Ford Mustang (2004 and earlier)

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