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Describe your GM, Ford or Chrysler classic muscle car
I had a white 1968 Plymouth Roadrunner. Stock...383 CI and 335 HP. After a few tricks it was putting out 413 HP to the rear wheels. I sold the bird in 1970 and purchased a 1969 Hemi Cuda. Stock....426 CI and 425 HP. I used to sometimes scare myself when I jumped on the Cuda. Gas went to $.50 a gallon in 1972 and I sold it. How I wish I owned it today.
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It was a 1970 convertible with the 400 c.i. 2-barrel and a Muncie 4-speed (pretty rare for a convertible in 1970).
I kept that car for a year and a half before financial pressures caused me to unload it at slight loss.
The old Goat was in rough shape but it was a hoot to drive and attracted attention wherever we went (it had been repainted "Judge Orange").
It wasn't tremendously fast but it was a lot faster than anything I'd previously owned (all 4 cylinder cars). It had good brakes, handled alright if you didn't push it too hard and rode reasonably well.
I ended up pressing it into service as a daily driver when I wrecked my other car and it was laid up for three months. The gas bills almost killed me but it never let me down shuttling back and forth from Maine to Worcester.
I'd happily buy another if I could find one at a reasonable price.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
'69 Plymouth GTX convertible. This one is owned by my best friend's dad. It is red with white leather, black top, and has the 440 Magnum 4-bbl hooked to a 727 Torqueflite. This GTX is only one out of 700 built in '69, and most did come with the 440. It is very rare to find a ragtop equipped with the 426 Hemi or a manual tranny.
'70 Plymouth 'Cuda 440. This car is owned by the head mechanic at our garage; he also happens to be our neighbor. It was purchased in '91 in very rough condition, with a shot body and drivetrain. After three years worth of work and more than 2,500 man-hours of labor, the 'Cuda is in concours show condition. It has the 440 Six Pack engine, and oddly enough, the shifter for the automatic tranny is right on the column. A very rare car indeed.
'77 Chevy Camaro Z28. I don't know if you would want to classify this as a muscle car. My dad bought this new and kept it until it was stolen in Feb. 1979. I believe that the 350 was in a sorry state of tune that year, as it only produced a "puny" 165 hp.
My favorite musclecar was a 1967 GTO with the optional High Output 400/360. It was as close to a driver's car as a musclecar gets, with four speed, quick-ratio manual steering, factory HD suspension, manual brakes--and tiny drums that had trouble stopping the Nova GM took them from. I put many miles on that car in the hills and it cornered flat and with good steering feel, and of course you could bring the rear end out with a little throttle.
And it was very quick. At the strip I stayed even with a GTX 440/375 until its driver missed the 3-4 shift. I beat a stock-looking Challenger 440 6-Pak off the line and stayed ahead of him all the way down the strip. That surprised me because the built 383 Road Runners kept smoking me. Of course the serious racers like them had traction, something we "run what you brung" guys never had. They'd take off like they'd been catapulted. Very discouraging.
This was a '69 GTO Judge. I basically traded the '67 GTO for it. A dealer from Chicago was out here looking for rust-free California cars. Ironically the '67 was from Chicago but had been in California most of its life, so he bought it for $1500 and I gave that money to the guy selling the Judge.
This Judge was Hugger Orange with white vinyl top and white interior. Had the same 400/360 as the '67 but with the addition of so-called ram air, really more of a cold air setup. Very unusual in that it had a column shift automatic. What with this and the vinyl top I wasn't sure if my Judge wasn't really just a heavily disguised Buick so I called Pontiac and they sent me a copy of the original window sticker documenting it.
The Judge was also an exceptional road car, standard HD suspension plus disc brakes so it actually stopped. I didn't think I'd like the automatic but it turned out to be a ball. It was a factory heavy duty Turbo 400, very low key around town (unlike an aftermarket shift kit) but very firm if you leaned on it.
I raced it a few times and I'm realizing now that this was the car I beat the 440 6-Pak Challenger with, not the '67. I just got a feeling the crowd was into this race, seeing two of the bigger names from the musclecar era. I remember hearing someone whoop when the Judge spun its tires going into second--guys who spend their Wednesday nights at the strip are a little different.
It was just grudge racing but every once in a while you'd get a great pairing like this. The rest of the time you either raced 12-second drag cars or beat up vans. Hard to look good either way.
It didn't take me to long to come to a second realization: I should have never sold it. Those cars were flat out fun. sniff sniff.
Whoda thunk they would be worth so much now?
Okay, my third favorite musclecar (and my last) was a '68 Cougar 6.5 litre. Started out as a very sedate 390-2v with automatic, which is how I bought it. Ponderous and not as quick as the 289 Cougars I'd owned. It was so overwhelmed by the 390's weight that the front structure (not the suspension, the structure) would creak if you took a freeway entrance too fast.
One day it starting smoking and I was actually happy--I could build the car the way I wanted. Pulled the engine and had it rebuilt with a very nice Comp Cam 270 duration cam, Edelbrock Performer intake and Holley.
My big (huge) mistake was converting it from automatic to stick. By this time I didn't have enough money for a four speed so bought a three speed (very very dumb). As if this wasn't bad enough I bought the wrong HD three speed, the one for full size cars instead of ponies. So the shift linkage never really worked right.
But that engine...don't ever let anyone tell you a 390 can't put out. Man that thing was strong. Had to be the cam. I never raced it--I'd probably still be trying to find second going through the traps--but it would have been interesting. I don't think it was all torque. I think it actually put out some horsepower even with the stock heads. And it had that slightly lumpy idle a nice street cam has. My wife said it vibrated the house when I pulled into the garage.
I bought it for $1500, put about $5500 (rebuild, tires) into it and sold it shortly after for...$1900. That's what you call a beating.
Surprised me too, I'm sure it was exceptional.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
Here again the highest prices are reserved for the extremes of rarity, power and prestige. A "normal" 396 coupe doesn't cut it in that department, as there are too many of them around.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
It was really a pony, not a musclecar. A '68 Cougar XR-7 with the 302 four barrel and an ultra-rare factory four speed. I read somewhere that 99% of '68 Cougars had automatic. Based on my experience most of the remaining 1% were either the standard three speed or a handful of four speed 390 GTs.
So a 302 four speed was the rarest of the rare--and not worth much. I sold it to a guy who took out the engine and transmission, then abandoned it. The cops called me because he hadn't transferred ownership. It ended up in a wrecking yard where the guy who owns the Mustang Ranch in San Jose bought it, not to restore, but for the sheetmetal. I saw it in the back of his lot when I brought the 390 Cougar in.
It's one of my favorites because it was so well balanced. I don't suppose it could do 0-60 in less than 9 seconds but it felt quicker. The 289/302 had a very mild cam that helped throttle response but it could still breathe pretty well too. The dashboard was a copy of the Jag's, with full instrumentation and fake wood.
The Cougar was a deluxe Mustang but as a used car it sold for less than a Mustang, and that's a nice combination.
Okay, my fifth favorite musclecar was a '67 GTO with console shift Turbo 400. It wasn't an exciting car and it didn't have any unusual options but it was an exceptional cruiser. And it was beautiful, a kind of medium blue metallic similar to the Cadillac in another thread, with a mint black interior. Had 175k miles but still ran smoothly and had good power. A very satisfying car to drive.
I drove about thirty miles to see it the evening it hit the Trader but didn't bring any cash "so I won't make an impulse buy". That was the first and last time I did that. Bring cash and trust your instincts.
-Andrew L
The only bummer musclecar I had was a '63 LeMans. Not usually known as a musclecar but it was the immediate predecessor of the '64 GTO, the first musclecar. '63 was the first year the LeMans was available with a Pontiac V8, in this case the 326, and that's what my car originally came with along with a three speed stick.
The '61-63 LeMans used the early Corvair swing axle rear suspension and transaxle. The Corvair four speed would disintegrate even behind the LeMans' standard four cylinder. The three speed stick was the only manual strong enough to handle the 326, and even it was marginal at best.
Just to make things interesting and potentially life threatening, at some point someone had removed the 326 and installed a 389. They look the same so I didn't know this until I ID'd the engine.
So the car handled like a Corvair with a big block in the front trunk. It was the only car I ever owned that could understeer and oversteer at the same time. And if you ever tried to use all the power you'd have had to back up to pick up all the broken transmission parts.
I had a distant cousin, a classic rebel gearhead, who had a hemi Road Runner in the late '60s. Unfortunately I never got a ride in his car. He was never much for socializing.
He was always working on his car, and sometimes they took a little tinkering to get them to run right. I remember in the early '80s someone showed up at the strip with a rebuilt hemi Road Runner and it was doing 15s. If you read the old road tests that kind of performance wasn't uncommon. That's the one area where a Tri-Power or Ram Air GTO had it over a hemi--the goats would run great right out of the box.
But a properly set up hemi was in a whole different league. It was about the closest you could get to a streetable racing engine.
The Pontiac didn't have that kind of potential--not many engines did--but it delivered more consistent performance. Pontiac knew what the public wanted, and the public wanted a nice streetable car with a hairy image. It didn't want a hairy car, and that's why I can probably count the number of street hemis I've seen on the fingers of one hand.
Day 6 and today's featured car is a '68 Firebird with the 400/335 and Turbo 400. This was the same engine as the standard GTO 400 except Pontiac supposedly restricted the opening of the secondary throttle plate so the Firebird wouldn't embarass the heavier GTO.
But the Firebird/Camaro was pretty flimsy compared to the intermediates and the Firebird just didn't have the same feel as the GTO. And the interior wasn't nearly as nice. As I've said many many times, the GTO was just a great all-around package--lots of little things that added up.
Yeah, the goat was pretty crude compared to European high performance cars of the era but nice styling and some very intelligent tweaking of the basic platform created a very satisfying package--if you ordered the right options.
The Firebird did feel a little more nimble because of the shorter wheelbase but it still wasn't as nice to drive. Not a car I miss. In fact I barely remember it. But one with the OHC six might be better. Less weight, less power.
My Dad though, had some pretty cool cars in his younger days, although they got ragged out pretty quickly. His first car was a 1964 Galaxie 500 hardtop coupe with a 390. Not exactly a musclecar, but probably the best of all the ones he had. It was a Ford though, which in his eye was 3 strikes against it...
He got a '63 Impala SS 409 after that, but sold it when he went into the Army. When he got out, he bought a '65 SS409. Then a '62 Corvette that was ratted out, and then a '64 GTO 2-door sedan that was a total bucket. He paid about $400 for it around 1973-74? I was still in nursery school at the time, so I don't remember much about it, except following it on the way home the night he bought it, there was a shower of sparks from underneath from where the exhaust dragged. The engine went bad, and my Granddad put in a Chevy 400 for him. I know that's blasphemy today, but back then this was just an old beater, so getting it running was more a priority than keeping it original!
I've never really had a real "muscle car". Probably the closest thing would be my '68 Dart 270. It has a 318 2-bbl, dual exhaust. The guy that had it before me sunk about $4000 into the engine rebuilding it and hopping it up...why he put a 2bbl back on I'll never know! Still, it had enough power to instantly shred the tranny and rear-end, which he replaced with newer, but still used, units. Then he decided he needed a truck for work, and put it up for sale, which is where I stumbled into this car's picture. I'm sure that any number of cars today would blow its doors off, but there wasn't really too much on the road back when I bought this car that would take it. But then again, 1992 isn't exactly a high point in history for performance, when there were still tons of emasculated '70's and 80's cars on the road, and even the '90's hadn't really started boosting hp yet.
This car had power steering, but the pump was broken, so it was a good tricep builder. Once you got used to driving it and accustomed to all its quirks, and threw some muscle into the steering, it actually handled pretty well. Guess I was just born too late to experience, first-hand, all the really great musclecars though!
I'm getting to the bottom of the barrel. Let's see, oh yeah, there was a '66 GTO 389/335 with two-speed automatic (not Powerglide). It had relatively low miles (less than Irv Gordon's Volvo) but it just felt kind of loose and flabby. Maybe that's what they all felt like with standard suspension.
That's a less-than-inspirational drivetrain too. It pinged like heck and I don't know if it was carboned up or if it was just the pre-'67 heads getting in the way. The '67 400/Turbo 400 combo was a big improvement.
Anyway I ended up selling it to some skid who scared the whee out of me and his friends when he took it for a test drive. A week after he bought it he blew the transmission.
http://www.jimwangers.com/woodward2.html
Well, we finally arranged to order a 1969 Camaro SS 396 from Timmers Chevrolet Truck and Fleet sales department. I got the 396/350 HP, RS package, 4-speed (close ratio), 373 positraction, ralley wheels, console, guages, black vinyl roof, spoilers, special interior group (trim on the pedals and woodgrain), AM radio, tinted glass and endura front bumper. Cortez silver, black interior and black stripes. The list was $3610.06 - drive out was $3238.80 (I'm doing this from memory - don'tcha know this car left an impression on me!)
Six weeks later I remember going to the dealer and finding the car parked at the back of the lot with the fleet milk trucks - what a beautiful car! When driving it out of the dealer I screeched the tires (not trying to) and was yelled at by my father. He drove it when we got home and did the same thing - then apologized.
Sniff sniff - I sold that car with only 6000 miles on it - the car attracted so much female interest - hottest car in my high school. I started dating an older woman - a senior - and I could not afford the payment, insurance and her demands for dates, dinners and movies. Sold the Camaro and bought a 1966 VW Beetle with a sunroof. That same girl is the mother of my three children and grandmother of two now.
Until you got to the part about being married to your high school sweetheart, I would have told you to keep the Camaro. I think you got the better end of the deal.
60s Beetles (especially with sunroofs) aren't so bad, my parents had a red '64 with a roof when I was a kid, rumor has it we (twin bro and I) were conceived in. A scary thought on so many levels.
Do you know if your Camaro is still out there? Assuming you have the VIN, it should be easy to find out.
This article raised a big fuss in the gearhead community for several reasons:
-It implied that the '64 Goat could be compared in some ways to the legendary 250 GTO, a clearly absurd proposition. (It was followed by an article comparing a '65 421 Catalina 2+2 with a Ferrari 330GT 2+2, a less absurd proposition, at least looking strictly at the numbers.)
-DED and the C&D crew were clearly shilling for Jim Wangers and GM and supporting the shameless ploy of naming Ponchos after Ferraris.
-The '64 GTO in question was a "Royal Oak Bobcat"
with a host of dealer-installed enhancements (e.g. re-jetted carbs). This was pointed out in the article but they didn't make a big thing of it.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
But it shouldn't take away from the fact that of the Detroit automakers Pontiac was the most committed to street performance, over a longer period and with more consistancy, and with an inspired and highly successful blend of engineering, styling and marketing. They had their act together better than anyone else from 1959 to maybe 1969. That's a long time in terms of market cycles, and rarely during those years did they make you ask "what were they thinking?".
That doesn't mean their cars were superbly engineered world-beaters, but the whole package from design to execution was consistently a winner in their target market.
Jim Wangers was a big part of that success. You can say he's over the top and poke fun at his hairpieces but there aren't too many of us who can win a national racing championship and go on to be the marketing brains behind such large-scale success.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
http://www.boyleworks.com/ta400/psp/The60.html
As Uncle Tom Cahill said, you could land a Piper Cub on the trunk of that car.
A few years ago I ran across a '59 Catalina with what appeared to be a factory four speed--it didn't look like the steering column ever had a shifter attached to it. Red over black. Probably a Tri-Power--why else order a four speed the first year it was available in sedans? Just a nice, straight, rust-free original. What a time capsule that would be. Maybe not a musclecar but certainly a proto-musclecar.
http://www.ncws.com/goodrich/1959_Pontiac.html
This is either a really lousy amateur photo or the '59 was one ugly car (yeah I know, "or both"). I'll see if I can't find something better.
Oh yeah this is better...
http://www.classicroad.com/vintads/pontiac1959.JPG
Not accurate ("artist's conception") but a lot more flattering.
The first Pontiac that made people sit up and take notice was the '57. At 347 CID the engine was starting to make some power and Tri-Power was available for the first time. They made a handful of fuelie Bonnevilles too. But even the standard 252-hp four barrel was quick for its day.
Here it is...
http://www.classicroad.com/vintads/pontiac1957.JPG
They hadn't got the styling quite right, more like a Chevy wearing Buick hand-me-downs, but it takes a while to turn around a company.
I think the '58 was pretty cool, compared to an Olds or Buick of the time and the '59, while it may still be considered ugly to many, I think is a really cool looking car. To me though, 1961 was the year that Pontiacs really started to look good.
Here's a pic I found... http://www.valenticlassics.com/images/1961BONNEVILLEWHITE.JPG
Somehow, everything about this car just seems "right"...
The one great thing about the Bonneville compared to the Catalina or later Grand Prix is that it still had the four speed hydro instead of the funky Roto-Hydramatic they brought out in '61. Bonneville and Star Chief kept the four speed through '64, then went to the Turbo 400.
And as you say a longer wheelbase and rear deck really helps the longer/lower/wider factor.
Yeah, that 1961 model is nice looking. I don't much like the later-1960s Pontiacs, where the center grille bar began protruding further and further outward in "beak" fashion.
-Andrew L
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
http://popularmechanics.com/popmech/auto2/9612AUCCEM.html
(Be kind to the '65-up beaksters. One of us owns one.)
http://www.motionalmemories.com/1965-Pontiac-Catalina-Convertible.htm
Here's another '65 Catalina convertible from what I think is a Finnish web site, proving that Pontiac speaks the universal language of world peace.
http://www.rustylife.com/clina/clinafi.htm
I'm not sure what the "rusty life" refers to, but if this guy is selling old cars his marketing needs a little beefing up. How do you say "rust-free original" in Finnish?
I had a friend with some type of law enforcement try to trace that Camaro back in the early 80's. I had not really thought about trying again today. Carfax maybe? I still have the original tag receipt and keys.
A guy working at another grocery store bought the Camaro from the VW dealer and had it about a year. The original VIN trace showed the car going to Virginia and then no further records.
I would like to run it down because the 396/350 HP combination in a Camaro was pretty rare (even rarer than the 375 HP ones) Most 396's were the 325 HP models.
The nice thing about my wife is she would be very supportive of me buying back the car (if I could find it) - she wants me to go get a Boxster to jazz my life up. My 1991 Camry Wagon embarasses her. She will not ride in it with me! 50'th birthday coming up next month....hmmmmm....
and whomp on ! Sundance orange too !
Bought in 1974 and still have it !
It was my 2nd car...1st car 67 chevelle SS 396
Only had that one 8 months (crash)
Have taken my goat to high school
reunions over the past 25 plus years
or drive around my old stomping grounds
or car meets and people STILL come up
to me and say GEO...You still got that
DARN car !!!!!!!!!!!!
http://sti.br.inter.net/rubener/mi6134.htm
Too bad they didn't offer the 4speed hydramatic in the Catalina and Ventura. I always wondered why they bothered with that weird Roto-Hydramatic. At least Pontiac offered the 4speed hydro in its senior lines-but Oldsmobile was stuck with the Roto in all its models from 61-64. I always wondered why.
Really too big a car for a "muscle car", but the '55 Century had the right idea. Basically more like the 90s Impala SS concept. BIG car with BIG engine, not "compact" with BIG engine, which is what a "real muscle car" has to be. Muscle cars are not full-size cars, and they got their performance in part from running with lighter smaller bodies. A classic case of gaining horsepower by losing weight.
Wildcats and the like.
They need a name.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
Plus, size is all relative...those early full-size musclecars were probably lighter and smaller than some of the overblown musclecars of the later '60's and early '70's!
How was the Century originally marketed? Was it marketed as a high-performance car, along the lines of the SS Impala, 300 Letter Series, etc? Or was it just a the lighter Special body with the bigger Super/Roadmaster engine? If it's just the small car with the bigger engine, then I wouldn't call it a muscle car. However, if it had a hopped-up version of the Roadmaster engine, and put out more hp than it did in the Roadmaster, and was in the lighter body, then I'd consider it a musclecar.
"Muscle Car" means cars with large engines stuffed into compact bodies, and refers to 60s and early 70s cars and MAYBE a couple of early 80s cars (debatable one way or the other). There is no such thing as a "50's muscle car" or an 90s muscle car per se, although both 50s and 90s have "muscle car roots".
In other words, the term muscle cars is both period specific and car-specific.
Of course, it's hard to be cut and dry about it. There will always be some debate about this car or that.
But full size 4-door sedans and wagons are definitely OUT.
Mustangs and Camaros are "pony cars" not muscle cars, and the full-size sedans and coupes dont' really have a name.
This car was that medium metallic blue with a black vinyl top - it was the one with the swing out rear window and no stripes. Torqueflite trans on the column and black vinyl bench seat interior. It did have the fancy wheels.
Before driving it he went to the Plymouth parts counter and bought the 383 emblems for the hood to replace the 426 ones 'cause the car was a factory Hemi! He also bought a set of steel wheels and the "dog dish" hub caps to finish the illusion that this was the run of the mill cheap Roadrunner.
That guy blew away just about everything in Decatur, GA during the 1969-70 golden years!