It's gonna cost HOW much???

alcan · May 2002

You're welcome. Good luck with it.

andre1969 · May 2002

We're having some work done on my Grandma's '85 LeSabre Limited. My uncle wants to start driving the thing on a regular basis to keep the mileage off his truck, so we took it to my regular mechanic to have them check everything out and find just about everything wrong they possibly could.

Well, there was plenty wrong with it, but the most critical items were the center link and idler arm in the steering, front brake pads, and the brake rotors, which are below spec and can't be turned anymore That's probably not a shock though, for a car with 156000 miles or so on it.. So to have new rotors and pads put on the front, the rear drum brakes cleaned and adjusted, plus the idler arm and center link replaced, is going to come out to about $682.00.

There was a time when I would've balked at a price like that, but nowadays, that's probably not even 2 months of payments on a modest new car!

Anybody have any comments on that price? I've never done much suspension work, except for helping a friend replace ball joints on a '71 Duster, so I really don't know how involved it is. Those old-style rotors are pretty expensive and require a lot of labor too, don't they?

Just out of curiosity, let's say my '00 Intrepid needed the same repairs? Any guesses on how comparable the price would be?

isellhondas · May 2002

Back in the days when I managed a large auto repair shop, an older lady brought her Buick in for a much needed set of tires. It was an Electra, probably around a 1966 as I recall.

Anyway, my tire installer (who knew nothing about cars) mentioned to me that the steering felt funny when he drove the car into the bay.

I looked at the old tires and it was obvious that the car had a severe alignment problem.

So, I asked her f she wanted it looked at.

" Are you trying to sell me something?...I've never had a bit of trouble with it"

But, she did agree to have us look at it.

I remember the strut rod bushings were gone, the center link was completely shot and the upper control arm bushings had twisted out.

You could grab one of the front wheels and move it back and forth two or three inches!

When I went to move the car I noticed the left motor mount was broken in half.

She didn't believe me..." I've read about shops that try to sell women repairs they don't need"

And she left....

isellhondas · May 2002

Well, I'm pretty much out of it lately but that doesn't sound like a bad price.

I do have to question whether or not that high mileage Buick is worth it though?

I guess that's not a lot of money if the rest of the car is in good shape.

fleetwoodsimca · May 2002

I must agree with your drift on this. That is a big price to sock into an old car with over 150K on it, in order to keep miles off another vehicle. That is, it may make the transfer of mileage from one to the other not a very good financial thing, unless the Buick can provide many thousands of miles of transportation. Only Andre's uncle can answer that one, I suspect. It's a tough call.
If I am not mistaken, the 2000 Intrepid has a rack and pinion steering system versus the old Buick having a recirculating ball steering system. You can't compare the two! A new rack installed in the Dodge would go $500 plus, then the front brakes for what, $100 plus? I must admit I am thinking the quoted price for the Buick repair is rather high.

andre1969 · May 2002

...for the input. I think my uncle's reasoning is that he just wants to forego replacing his truck for as long as possible. It's a '97 Silverado, with about 80,000 miles on it, and he's down to the final few payments.

Full-size pickups nowadays are expensive as heck, so I guess he figures that the longer he can make his current one last, the better off he is.

Body-wise, there are only a few parking lot dings, and the typical paint of the era that's long-since faded on the hood and trunk. The rear bumper is rusting, but the frame, floor pan, and most of the other underpinnings look fine. No water leaks yet. Also, the 307 and driveline feel like they'll go on forever and truthfully, I think most modern GM cars squeak and rattle more than this one does!

If it were up to me alone, I would get rid of the car simply because I do not need it. My grandmother doesn't drive anymore, and she signed it over to me about 3 years ago, and my uncle and I just used it as a spare car. In fact, I checked the mileage records, and it's gone a whopping 12,000 miles since it's been in my name! So if things were going to stay the same, I'd just get rid of it, but with him wanting to start driving it more, it may be worth it to put some money into it.

Otherwise, my uncle was thinking about getting a cheap, brand-new car like an Echo to drive around. So again, putting some money into the old Buick will keep him out of a car payment for awhile...just as long as the costs to upkeep the Buick don't start exceeding what a new car payment would be!!

andre1969 · May 2002

...thanks for the input about the Intrepid versus Buick thing. I knew the steering systems are different between the two, but it just didn't hit me that they were so totally different that you couldn't compare the two!

As for brake disks, aren't the newer ones actually less expensive than the older ones? I've never replaced a disk before (done plenty of drums though!), so I don't know, first-hand. I've just heard that the newer ones are more "disposable" and easier to replace than the older ones.

leadfoot4 · May 2002

That you're probably looking at about $250 worth of parts and 2-3 hours of work, if you were to do it yourself. It's probably not too bad a job, and IMHO the car probably would run several thousand more miles.

fleetwoodsimca · May 2002

You make an excellent point-- Do the work yourself and the old Buick starts sounding like a good bet.

oldharry · May 2002

It depends on how much he will drive it. Name brand centerlinks list for over $100, idler arms about $50, and brake rotor include the hub and may be $50 to 80 each. Off brand parts for a do-it-yourselfer are about half the price, but most shops (including me) won't sell them or put them on. When they wear out, the customer remembers that your repair didn't last as long as the original, not how cheap it was. One other shop I know used to install customer's parts, and in one case when they wore out, the customer got new, took the old back for warranty credit, and was told there was nothing wrong with the parts except bad installation.

On the brakes, first see if the bleeder screws can be opened. Use pentrating oil, wait a couple days and use it again. If they can, put new seals and boots in the calipers. (e-mail me, and I'll tell you the tricks to do it easily, I won't post them because people who don't follow the direction exactly can create a dangerous situation.) If not "loaded" rebuilt calipers have pads and necessary hardware already installed. Just hang and bleed.

You should have the alignment checked after replacing a centerlink and idler arm.

Harry

catam · May 2002

I have heard the arguement that doing it yourself doesn't really save you any money. This may be true for the fortunate few who really make more than $100/ hr and would be getting paid to work instead of doing car repair.
For the rest of us this just isn't true.
Even the simplest of tasks (ie oil change), you will save both time and money. Doing my own oil changes costs me about $7.50, plus about 30-45 minutes. (I plan ahead enough that I pick up the oil and filter when I am at Walmart for any other reason.)
Unless you live next door to your auto shop and know the owner, it takes more time to drive to/back from the repair shop, not to mention the 30 min or more you sit in their waiting room doing nothing, then the bill $19.95.
Even the tough jobs, (ie replacing a clutch), last one I did took me around 5 hours labor and the clutch kit cost $135.
If I remember right the price I was quoted on replacement by a shop was $900. And they couldn't guarantee same day replacement.
Lets see, time to and from the shop for both me and wife in 2 vehicles (cause I need a ride home and back) 1 hour for each of us. That leaves 3 hours of my time used at a savings of $765. That works out to $255 per hour for my time. Man if I only made that at my job.

fleetwoodsimca · May 2002

I have subscribed to that logic for many years. For me, doing some wrenching helps to keep life real. That's just another bonus for DIY folks.

Mr_Shiftright · May 2002

Now wait a sec.

To change the oil you have to:

Go buy the oil and filter

Change your clothes, jack up the car maybe, capture the oil, do the filter, etc. etc.

Then you have to take the oil somewhere and dispose of it.

Now 4-5 quarts of oil and a filter have got to cost you more than $7.50, and the total time it takes has got to be more than 45 minutes, don't you think, if you put it all down on paper?

Sounds to me that you are actually spending at least $10 for oil and filter and at least 1.5 hours to get everything done.

So if you make $20 an hour at your job, and pay yourself at the normal rate to change your oil, you are in the job $40.

Now me, I consider paying someone else to do an oil change for me a real bargain.

leadfoot4 · May 2002

If you watch the sales, you can still get oil for $1.00 per quart. 5 quarts, $5.00. That leaves $2.50 for the filter....no problem!
I pull into the garage when I come home from work, the "ramps" are already out there, just set them in place. Drive up, let the engine drain while I go in the house and check the answering machine, and scan through the mail. Go back out, fill the new filter with oil, put the drain plug back in, swap filters, pour in the fresh oil, and Voila! 15-20 minutes total work time at most.
The local highway department has a waste oil burning furnace in their truck garage, so they collect old motor oil. I've acquired a couple of 5 gallon plastic jugs for waste oil storage, so every 4-5 months I take them dowm to the garage to dump. It takes maybe 20 minutes to do that.
I keep my cars VERY clean, so actually I could change the oil in a suit and tie, with no cleanliness problems. Therefore, I don't have to spend time finding my oldest clothes to do the job. I'm just a "well oiled machine"!
One other point....My wife and I are into cars, and between us, we have several. If I were to pay someone to maintain them at the level that I see fit, I'd go broke. Therefore, even if it took me twice as long to do an oil change, I'd still have to do it myself. Secondly, by doing it properly by myself, you won't see me whining on the "Bargain Oil Change Express stripped my oil pan" forum.
(I'm not trying to be sarcastic, but I don't see an oil change as a big deal)

andre1969 · May 2002

...well, here's what I do...

I stop off at the auto parts store on my way home from work, or when I'm doing other errands. I buy oil by the case, and usually a couple filters at a time, and keep the stuff in the garage. On my Intrepid, I can actually change the oil without jacking the car up. Just slide the pan under there, undo the drain plug, and let it out. Then drop the filter.

Then I just let it sit and drain for a good long time, and go find something else to do, like yard work or something. Come back to the car, put the drain plug back in and then the filter, put the oil in. Out of paranoia, double-check just to make sure it's not coming out the other end ;-)

As for the old oil, well I have a few 5-gallon jugs and a big galvanized tub that's about 2'x2'. Once I've collected enough old oil from various oil changes, I just put the tub in the trunk, and then load all the junk into it and haul it to the recycilng drop-off about 1 1/2 miles down the road.

If I don't let the car do an extended drain, I can do the whole thing in about 10-15 minutes. Or I could drive to the dealer, who's about 20 minutes away, wait for him to get to the car, have him get more bulk oil on the engine than in it, and get charged $26.95 for the privilege.

Or I can take it somewhere else, and have them lie to me about what weight oil they put in the car, forget to tighten the drain plug (or better yet, strip it...thanks Leadfoot, hadn't thought about that one!), try to sell me a bunch of useless stuff, forget to lube the chassis (on older cars that still require that), and so on and so on.

I guess I could take it to my regular mechanic, but he's not set up to do a quickie lube. In this case it would be one of those drop it off, get a ride to work, and pick it up after work type of things. If I were having other work done on the car anyway, that'd be a different story, but for the most part, I find it easier, quicker, cheaper, and more reliable to just do it myself. Besides, nobody's going to care about my car as much as I do, so nobody's going to have as much incentive to not screw it up!

fleetwoodsimca · May 2002

There are self-sufficiency issues here. Self esteem is bolstered by acts which prove to oneself that you can, and do, provide much for yourself with less dependency on others. Yes, you could stay at work longer to "make the money" and never have to spin a wrench again. The monotony looms large, and the discomfort of questionable competency nags at you. I prescribe rebuilding a set of McPherson struts as therapy for the deeply troubled sojourner. Did it myself. I felt better for weeks... >:oÞ

Mr_Shiftright · May 2002

I absolutely guarantee you (lunch on me if I'm wrong) that if you change the oil and filter just once on my car you won't want to do it again.

So we are looking at the same thing but from a different perspective.

And what, pray tell, do you do with the old oil? This must also take time and expense. You have to have a drain container, and then haul it off somewhere.

leadfoot4 · May 2002

and ask the next obvious question. What kind of car is it??

(think how many taxpayer dollars are saved by my town heating the highway garage with old motor oil!)

fleetwoodsimca · May 2002

...I save one gallon milk jugs, etc., as receptacles for dirty oil. When I am making a trip past AutoZone, I drop in and leave it. It is a service they offer to all their customers.
Worn out old MB's are painful to own, I realize, and you may not want to change oil in one of those yourself! (:oÞ

catam · May 2002

About a year ago, I had a door to door salesman at my house peddling oil changes of all things. I was in a good mood so I had a little fun with him.
"What do you spend for oil changes?
"Well lately 6 bucks, (at the time auto zone had their oil change special on 5 quarts and a filter for $5.95, and I had stocked up.)
"huh, you have to pay more than that?!!"
"why, so that you can work the numbers to justify my using your service. I guess even the most creative person can't make it sound good to pay your $15.95 with every 10th change free, when I pay less than half to begin with."
"yeah, but think about the time and trouble you'll save. Isn't that worth a little extra money."
"hmm, maybe you have a point, let me see, takes me about 30 minutes to do the job myself, and I know it is done right using the right oil. How long do you guys need to do it??"
"We guarantee the job is done in 30 minutes or its free."
"So takes me 15 minutes to get to your place, wait there for 30, and 15 minutes home, that makes an hour by my count, guess you're not going to save me any time either"
"Well here's our card in case you change your mind"

A little planning ahead makes an oil change a very quick job, even on my wife's Venture which is one of the more difficult vehicles that I have changed oil on.
Like I said, I am usually at Walmart at least twice per month if not more, while I am there I just pick up the oil and filter if I don't already have it at home. Then anyday after work it is a quick easy job.
Recycling is not any more difficult, let the oil collect in jugs, then next time I am on my way to auto zone I just take it with me.

haspelbein · May 2002

...my community actually has free curb pickup for used oil, but only in containers issued by the recycling company. It never hurts to check if such a service is available where you live.

kinley · May 2002

Easy on the 66 Mustang 289

A little more difficult on the SeaRay 302

Not too bad on the 94 Towncar, turning wheel left helps.

The worst = 95 T Bird 4.6 and your suggestions are welcome. Next time, I'm drilling a hole in the filter - draining the oil out of it before removing it.

When my Dad let me help him change the oil in the 37 Chev in '39 he would mix kerosene with the old oil and then spray that on the dusty alley (kept the dust down) so the wash on the clothes line would stay cleaner. My Dad taught me to do what I could for myself and the satisfaction following the completion of the task was reward enough.

andre1969 · May 2002

...when the car's harder to do the oil on, I'd be even more leery of letting someone else do it. For instance, the oil filter on my '57 DeSoto is a royal pain to do...between lining up the cannister and the cover and all the little gaskets...it takes time and patience.

Oh yeah, like I'm going to let the guy at Firestone who came in with a hangover try to rush through THAT job!! I guess if nothing else, they could just wipe off the canister and leave the old cartridge in, just like they did back in the old days ;-) Hey, maybe that's one of the reason older cars didn't last so long...people changing the oil but then not even bothering to touch those annoying filters!

rubicon52 · May 2002

I've tried the dealer, quick lube places, and now I'm back to changing it myself. I find that changing it myself takes about the same time and is a little cheaper, but the real advantage is that it is done right with the best oil possible. When you take your car to the dealer and it comes back a quart low, how careful do you think they've been to clean the mounting face, lubricate the oil ring, properly tighten the filter, or let the oil drain completely?

Mr_Shiftright · May 2002

I think rubicon has it right here. If I stopwatched you guys (wouldn't THAT be annoying?) for the complete job from picking up the oil to the disposal part, it really is an investment in time, but eh advantage is that you do it yourself and don't muck it up.

So it sounds to me that it's just as much about "control" as it is about saving any money or time, maybe more so.

My car is a Mercedes diesel which is not a pain to own at all. One of the best cars I ever owned (and I've owned a few). However, the oil filter is a cannister type (drop-in) that requires undoing four large bolts from a large cast receptacle sitting at the back of the engine. Then the filter pulls out in all its disgusting diesel glory, and you somehow lift it, dripping and stinking, over the left front fender.

I have a trusted shop so I'm not worried about the control issue, but if I didn't have a good shop I certainly would not give it to an oil change facility. First of all, you need the exactly correct filter in there otherwise it will just by-pass, and secondly, one loose bolt on that high-up receptacle and all hell will break loose if you start the engine. What a mess that would be!

Also on top of all that I need 7 quarts of oil, and it should be diesel rated.

Can you imagine Jiffy Lube getting ALL that right?

alcan · May 2002

One of the big advantages of changing your own oil if you have access to a hoist (or even high ramps) is being able to poke around in the engine bay and under the car to give everything a quick once over. I like to be proactive.

leadfoot4 · May 2002

Excellent point!

alcan · May 2002

One of the best things that ever happened for the auto repair industry was the introduction of self serve gas bars. Back when the Earth's crust was still cooling and I was in high school, I worked part time in a service station. "Check under the hood?" was SOP. The station owner was obviously interested in increasing profits by selling product, but we found lots of frayed belts, soft or bulging coolant hoses, low oil or trans fluid, etc, etc. Now, how often do you see a hood up at a gas bar? People drive 'em until something falls off or blows up. Don't pay me now, I'd rather you pay me later.......

isellhondas · May 2002

We;ve talked about this before...NOTHING is nastier than changing an old filter on a fifties mopar with a hemi engine!

Those nasty little o rings and gaskets that have to be lined up just right. No room between the engine and frame for that long bolt to come out etc...

Hell, just wipe it off!

andre1969 · May 2002

...just out of curiosity, would it have been even worse to change the filter on a Chrysler than a DeSoto back then? My DeSoto's the only Hemi I have any experience with, but I think the Chrysler Hemi was even wider!

Trust me, I've left a few oil puddles on the garage floor trying to change the filter on that beast!

Mr_Shiftright · May 2002

I'm thinking of designing some kind of dialysis machine for my Mercedes diesel so that I don't ever have to change the filter again.

catam · May 2002

You got to be in the hospital (shop) 3 times a week for 4 hours. Wonder if cars would suffer from lethargy and poor performance after dialysis too.

Actually, we just need to force the auto design engineers to manually change the oil on every vehicle type they sell 3 times before putting a vehicle to market, then we would see every car on the road with a vertically mounted filter at the bottom of the engine next to the pan, with a nice big hole to access it easily.

Yawn, stretch..... man I just had the strangest dream.....

Mr_Shiftright · May 2002

I've heard Miata oil filters are a pain.

My Alfa Spider was such a struggle (it had the a/c unit) I finally ended up ordering specially made filters designed especially to clear the alternator and belly pan, at $10 a clip. Problem is they were very tiny--oil thimble-filters.

isellhondas · May 2002

On my Miata...can't tell you but after hearing that, I KNOW I'll have it done!

Andre...I remember, as a kid working in a Mobil Station, a customer with a '52 0r '53 De Soto. The car was old then, and we hated to see it come in.

It had a hemi engine, and that filter was a B**** to change! I remember fighting it for a half hour one hot summer day. Started the car and it leaked everywhere. The owner of the station decided I had had enough for one day and bought me a coke. He calmly re-did the job. Another half hour later, he turned the air BLUE with obsenities as his handiwork also leaked all over.

And the old guy would bring that De Soto in every other month for an oil change!

Think the canister ever got shined up.....?

leadfoot4 · May 2002

The widow across the street from my mother has a 1996 Ford Contour, with the 4 cyl. engine. Twice a year, I doll it up, and change the oil and filter for her. What a pain the filter is on that one!
The filter is located on the backside of the engine. After driving up on the ramps and draining the crankcase, you have to put a jack under the crossmember and lift a little, so you can turn the wheels full lock left. Then you squeze your hand and filter wrench between the frame and tie rod. Loosen filter, and have it drain 50% of it's contents in the drain pan and the other 50% on the frame members.
You then install new filter, spray frame with degreaser, refill engine, hose off degreaser, and drive car around the block a couple of times to blow off degreaser. The next day, you explain to owner that the car isn't "leaking", it's just the excess degreaser that seeped into all the little crevices, and is finally coming out. What a picnic!

alcan · May 2002

Ever change a PCV valve on one of those? Step #1, raise vehicle on hoist. Step #2, remove catalytic converter. Yep, the cat's at the exhaust manifold for a faster cat warmup, and the PCV's right behind it. It can be changed without converter removal, but it takes longer and you'll learn some new words along the way.

fleetwoodsimca · May 2002

That is astounding. If I didn't trust your word, I'd say you were joking! Remove the catalytic converter to change the PCV?
I was going to gripe about a little inconvenience, but never mind... (:oÞ

alcan · May 2002

My Mitchell Labor Guide lists Contour 4 cyl. PCV valve replacement at 2.2 hours. Getting the valve out was one thing. Getting that sucker back in there was a whole 'nuther thing. By the time it was finally re-installed, it would have been faster to R&R the catalytic converter. I coulda strangled the brain-dead fool who designed that setup.

andre1969 · May 2002

...are you supposed to replace the PCV valve on the Contour, anyway? I hope you dont have to replace them every 12-15,000 miles like you did back in the day!! That'd get expensive enough that I'm sure a lot of people would just pass on it. I do my Intrepid's PCV valve about every 15,000 miles, but it just screws out and takes maybe 2 minutes to do.

fleetwoodsimca · May 2002

According to my manual on my '97 Geo Prizm, you can remove the PCV valve and inspect its condition including shaking it after some solvent cleaning. If you hear the ball valve rattling inside, it is okay. Reinstall it and that's it. I'd say on a Contour the "nonFool" procedure is to replace it anytime you have the access!

pyro49 · May 2002

To be honest I did a lot of work on my own car for many years due to lack of $$$$,but as I've gotten older(much older!) being able to bring a vehicle in for maintence and service is a guilty pleasure. But the caveat is to find a service station You can trust. The station I go to now I've haunted for almost 15 years and they are good people. When I first went there I told them I was looking for a garage that wouldn't rip me off at the first chance, so far I think they've treated me more than fair and done a good job of keeping a happy customer and vehicles that run and work the way the factory intended

fleetwoodsimca · May 2002

I buy some of my repairs now, that years ago I would have done myself. I just wish I had a place to take my vehicles that was both top notch and never made me feel overcharged.

swschrad · May 2002

removing the cat for the PVC valve is pretty bad.

my 2000 AWD V8 Exploder was built with one of a bad run of oil pressure sensors. which are located way too close to the lip of the oil pan and behind too much kerrrrrap. in fact, Ford footed the warranty bill for hoisting the engine to replace the sensor. my dealer had almost a couple dozen built in that run, found money!

almost as bad as the Mustang Machs with selfsame 302 V8 in the early 70s... it took several years for the special wrenches and hole plug kits for the fenders to be jinned up... in the meantime... that engine, and it ran hot and gooked up plugs then, had to be hoisted to replace at least one of the eight plugs (I think it was #5.)

alcan · May 2002

Same thing with V8 Chevy Monza's. The engine had to be lifted for access to #3 plug.

Mr_Shiftright · May 2002

I dimly recall one car where it was recommended to drill a large hole in the firewall to access a plug, but I forget which car.

fleetwoodsimca · May 2002

That kind of "engineering" should be punishable under the law! To this day, when shopping for new vehicles, I insist on inspecting the engine bay. The number of "fabulous" vehicles that I have walked or run away from is staggering. I know I'll get the big design burn one day, but have been pretty lucky so far.

kinley · May 2002

swschrad · May 2002

that pile should have been recalled!

Mr_Shiftright · May 2002

I can't recall, kinley. Some cars have had access holes bult in the inner fenderwell, too. That's also clunky, but better than drilling.

I imagine the firewall drilling was a way of avoiding lifting the engine each and every time you needed a tune up. Of course, nowadays you don't have to pulll spark plugs as often.

How about a water pump on a Fiat X1/9?

Book calls for 7.7 hours.

isellhondas · May 2002

A heater core in a Peugeot 604? 12 hours of miserable labor!

Hardly worth it when those cars were three years old!

It's gonna cost HOW much???

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