Toyota Sienna Future Models

shabbycat · February 2003

There are two of these on my block!

Edited to add: Both of them are running and used daily by their owners.

nofeer · February 2003

The true competition will come from incentives. big 3 (ford, gm, chrysler) have made comsumers dependent on incentives. while sienna charges MSRP+ the others will offer 0-0-0- to get market share. GM has announced even with incentives it's making a profit and market share. sooooooo that's a big incentive. We are hot for the sienna BUT the rest of the van world has to make a decision based on monthly payments. this may work against toyota charging big $$$$ and no discounts. I suppose that detroit will try to steal it's thunder and honda wants to crank up the production as it realizes that product to market makes the market. You'll see pressure on honda and others especially as others declare the new vans planned. toyota loves the idea of "best, most wanted, most sold" they want market share from honda and others. Soooooo vans to market will be pushed. the first buyers may wish to heed the above. wait till june as production ramps up, others are announced, and as more and more consumers rely on the internet, websites will start talking about new models, detroit will talk of incentives so their vans don't lose momentum, Honda, you'll see start to make deals and production increase. I personnaly feel HOnda looked at the market saw a void and milked it. the void is closing. but both must face big$$$ incentives from detroit. as incentives continue this only RAISES the opportunity cost of buying a 04 sienna. watch out new early buyers.

I WILL WAIT TILL JAN 04 LET THE DUST SETTLE.

THe real cost is not MSRP, but with incentives, 0% etc, the sienna feature for feature may be as much as 5-6k MORE compared to competitors. Toyota realizes that vehicles are very price...monthly payment sensitive. HOw do you think honda and toyota will face this reality....AND DON'T SAY "LET THE CONSUMER EAT CAKE" that will fly for the first few, then you'll see these forum post show weakness in price. YOU'LL SEE!!!!!

dyh555 · February 2003

Have you seen honda ODY come down in Price since 99 even with incentives from big 3 and sienna 03 well below Invoice?
good luck trying to find a deal on 04 Sienna..
I should have one by Apr 4th!

ash21 · February 2003

Prices did not come down on Odyssey because there was no competition.. period. Honda does not compete much with domestics. Why Toyota bought an Odyssey to look at... because thats their real competition. There is a segment of market which buys Hondas and Toyotas and there is a segment which would not even consider these vehicles. Prices on Ody will come down as soon as new Sienna hits the market, if they have not already started to come down. Same goes for Sienna after initial hype.

Most of the people don't think too much when it comes to buying a car, generally they walk in a dealership and try to deal as much as they can and go home in their new car. Those who are involved in this discussion and who see these posts think that this (like release of new Sienna)is a big news (deal), generally speaking rest of the world would hardly notice.. cars change models every now and then... that's all it means to them.

I have said this before, this is just a family van, not a limited release of TBird, or ZX or whatever...there will be plenty to go around, if you are smart enough to read these posts, then this should be easy to figure out.

nofeer · February 2003

Will pay handsomely for the worm...Toyota's market plan...market share and penetration. THe early buyers will help pad the dealers profits. Early steep prices pad dealer profit helps those of us who wait for reality...patients will pay off...you'll see. I'll wait and post my price I'll bet mine is lower than yours. Those who pay full price or premium allows dealers to offer better deals to others especially as new honda and others come on line why do you think they are introducing this van now...don't you think they know what honda and others are doing. Let's fill that void. pay the premium.....p-l-e-a-s-e.

bargamon · February 2003

IF demand is high, you'll pay msrp. If not, you'll pay less.

Obviously in that situation there are enough buyers that feel even at msrp they are getting a good deal. Some people would rather spend more and enjoy than save and not have the right vehicle.

Some of you will agree, some will wait before hell freezes before you pay msrp.

Momma always said "you'll never regret making the quality choice."

Of course if the Sienna turns to be a lemon, then its the worst of both worlds.

Its not a matter of right or wrong, the market will determine what will happen.

I thought the honda msrp was very reasonable from the start. Having not shopped one I cannot comment on the experience.

GM Vans sell because they are priced well. I don't have a problem with pricing of them. I would expect a big discount on models that don't sell well. They don't sell well at the msrp, that is why the market decides their value. Then they sell lots of vehicles at lower prices and do well. A real estate agent once told you can sell anything at a low enough price.

hansienna · February 2003

Toyota pricing of the exciting 2004 Sienna CE is very aggressive (appears to be $1000 LESS than the 2003 Sienna CE). Maybe Toyota is VERY serious about "Camry status" (BEST selling vehicle) for the Sienna after being a has-been in minivans for too many years.
.....Now, let us just hope Toyota dealers do not get smug, greedy, and apathetic as Honda did with the HOT 1999 Odyssey. I still won't consider an Odyssey because of the rude, arrogant Honda salesmen and their GREEDY dealerships.

harryfat · February 2003

Gee,

Didn't realize there's a competition to have a bragging rights of who paid the lowest price for the 04 Sienna per the previous post.

So should we start a new topic called "Can you beat my price on the 04 Sienna"?

As by definition I would think this discussion board will need to migrate over to something else as the "future Sienna" will become the "present Sienna" in 2 months.

Personally, I'd like to see "How much are you hoping/willing to pay for your 04 Sienna"? It'd be something like "Dear Santa, I'm hoping to get a 04 Sienna XLE with the following options, in Silver or Sand color, and hoping to pay only $X over invoice with expected delivery by July."

Any other ideas for new topics as we wait for the prices?

coolguyky7 · February 2003

GM, Ford, and to a lesser extent Chrysler, can't stay alive in the market with only incentives. It always comes back to whoever has the best product with a reasonable price. Incentives can't take the place for quality and reliability.

coolguyky7 · February 2003

Things are getting hot...a little...

http://www.caranddriver.com/xp/Caranddriver/dai/2003/february/200- 30205_dai_gm.xml

beckyok · February 2003

I bought my 98 Sienna from a fabulous Honda dealer here in St. Louis and I've never regretted it. Looking at the specs of the 2004 I will be very happy to pay >24k for a CE. It's better equipped than a 2003 LE that goes for about the same price with rebates. I am the thriftiest person I know (CHEAP). I don't expect demand to be high here, foreign cars are still frowned upon in this part of the world!

Peace, Becky

bargamon · February 2003

Hey guys, remember these are not beenie babies, tech stocks, or teddy ruckspin, just mini-vans.

The base for the CE, I'd be surprised if they actually get that low without add on's.

But lets not get too upset, its just a mini-van.

toyotaken · February 2003

All I'll say is that Toyota buyers don't typically shop domestics in their decision making. I'm not saying that they never do, just it is not as often as many would think. Out of every 10 customers that I work with, maybe 1 or 2 say that if they're looking at other vehicles, they're looking at a domestic model. 9 out of 10 say that they are either looking at another Toyota, Lexus, or Honda as an alternative.

It is sort of like when people are buying hamburgers. If someone is looking for the best price, not necessarily the best quality, they go to McD&*(*&d's $1 menu or Burger Prince as the alternative (Ford, GM, DC). If they're looking for a great meal, they go to a 4-star restaurant. You don't have too many people comparing the hamburgers at one joint to the prime-rib at the restaurant. Now again, I'm not saying that the difference between the domestic offerings are that great of a difference in comparison to Toyota, but Honda and Toyota will never win a price-point war especially with the HUGE rebates and 0% financing for 30-some-odd years(exageration) on domestics.

What Honda and Toyota do well is make VERY high quality products with HIGH resale values and with low probability of problems in the long run. If you want something that you can lease for 24months and turn it in on another vehicle, Honda and Toyota may never be the vehicle that fits your needs.

Just my $.02

Ken

bargamon · February 2003

No offense, but your last remark is kinda of arrogant. Yes your product is very good, but since the Japanese recession, Toyota is not over engineering the cars like they used to. Same with mercedes. This is to keep the prices down.

Its easy to get complacent and rest on your laurals while still on top, but the enemy has nothing to lose at that moment and throws assets to remedy and mount the next attact. We are not talking about the 1980s anymore.

I have not bought a domestic since 1982 (a great Camaro, but I am considering a Pacifica now, and would look at the cts caddy if I were in the market for myself. I think Lutz at GM will make strides with appeal for models in the coming years. So much domestic design and content in the American made Toyotas. They are not as good as they were a few years ago. IMHO.

Respectfully, Bargamon

sequoiasaurus · February 2003

I contacted a dealer who's name was mentioned here a sometime ago. He emailed back today and had this to say:

"We do not have any solid pricing on the new Sienna yet. We expect it to be more expensive than the current Siennas because of the increased interior size, standard equipment and the new 3.3 V6 that will be 240hp."

I'll leave judgement to you but maybe this guy should read his companies own press releases.

Jack
Bowellville Garage
Toyota Minisite

lachancs · February 2003

Jack:

That cracks me up. How many posts have we seen about the lack of knowledgable Toyota salespeople? It's amazing that Toyota management has let this happen. Honda too for that matter. Don't you think they monitor these chat groups? Maybe they just don't care, as long as their products move.

I'm on my way to visit a dealer in my area about allocations. I'd like to hear about the release of brochures too. Although I'm sure I'll be the one providing them with info. . .

winedogs · February 2003

I talked to two dealers about the price of the 2004 Sienna. One in WV and one in PA. Neither had any information on the price of a 2004. Nor did they have any idea what the 2004 would look like. It amazes me how these sales people sell cars and never do any homework!

Secondly, I'm looking to buy a XLE with DVD in July, does anyone think I will need to order one or will I find them on the lots by then.

1stminivan · February 2003

The lease on our Honda Accord is up the first week in May, and my husband and I have been looking at minivans since our family has grown. As it has been stated so many times, we have gotten NO help from dealers -- my cursory research on the Internet far exceeds the knowledge of most salespeople (i.e., while in the Toyota dealership, I was showing my husband how the 3rd row didn't fold into the floor. The sales guy said, "oh you're comparing it to the Odyessey" I replied, "yes, but the 2004 Sienna will have a seat like that" He was floored and actually didn't believe me!)

Anyway, I want to thank you all for the great information you have on this discussion site. I have a few questions still, however:

1. For those who have minivans now, what are the advantages/disadvantages to the 7 or 8 seat seating that Toyota is presenting? And why do only the CE and LE models come with the 8 seat option?

2. We take long car rides (6 hours!) to see grandparents regularly. Which is best for our 2 year old -- factory or dealer-installed DVD player?

3. We know the 04 Sienna is due in March. Will we be able to get one by the time our lease is up in May?

4. Is AWD necessary on a minivan? How does the Sienna (or Ody, the other mv we're looking at) perform in snow conditions?

Thanks so much for any help you can provide. You all are truly great resources!

warde · February 2003

I can answer to your #1.

We have 2 with one on the way, but I frequently baby sit a little 1 year old. I find with our current van, by the time that I have two kids in the middle seat and one in the back, there is not much room, especially if you leave a stroller in the rear, for large trips with luggage, groceries, and so on. I have also found we have been on vacations or just out of town and wanted to buy a larger item and we have no room if we were to have the little one that I baby sit with us. I personally think that you need to evaluate your family and your needs. We personally would love to be able to put 3 kids right behind us as when our baby is born we will have a newborn, 2.5 year old and a 4 year old The little ones still are needy in the car if they drop things with being in car seats they can't get them and so on. We also have Grandparents with us a lot or niece and nephews. Like I said earlier evaluate your family, how many kids to you have or plan to have and things like that, the 8 seat might be nice or might be a pain as it obstructs flow to the back row if you leave it in.

bargamon · February 2003

1. For those who have minivans now, what are the advantages/disadvantages to the 7 or 8 seat seating that Toyota is presenting? And why do only the CE and LE models come with the 8 seat option?

Answer: Its the better value. Capt chairs lose space and is more of a Luxury. So option them diffently. Advantage to capt chairs are kids can get to 3rd row easer, more space.

2. We take long car rides (6 hours!) to see grandparents regularly. Which is best for our 2 year old -- factory or dealer-installed DVD player? ansler: factory is always best, fully under waranty and off the floor. But expensive. Do you want your kids to always watch tv? I'd find a less expensive way and buy more books. Kids will grow to be idiots if they watch "Shreck" going to the supermarket.

3. We know the 04 Sienna is due in March. Will we be able to get one by the time our lease is up in May?

Why wouldn't you, they are for sale. In the real world (not here) not everyone is so excited about this van. Its a great product, but lets get real. If you want certain equipent at a great price, then no. IF your willng to spend MSFP, then yes. Have 2-3 choices and be willing to walk.

4. Is AWD necessary on a minivan? How does the Sienna (or Ody, the other mv we're looking at) perform in snow conditions?

No, my old sienna did great in the snow, but depends on how much. With Traction control and Stabilty control these are great help. AWD is better, but not a must have.

Good luck, do some reasearch and formulate some opinions. When you do, share them with the discussion. Many of your questions are personal choice, and much can be found with a little search and back reading. Go to Jacks site and you'll be better informed.

Salesmen: They are kept in the dark about new products until they are released. They are price negotiators not product experts. Some are passionate about the cars, but really informed consumers will always know more. And we should, if we are to spend this kind of jack on a vehicle, we should know about it. Salesmen are not product advisors to help determine which is the best vehicle. Im not bashing them, Just the opposite infact.

shabbycat · February 2003

Isn't that annoying? I printed out the press release on the Toyota website stating that the base price on the 2004's will be approx. $1000 lower than the 2003. It will be interesting to take it with me when I am truly in shopping mode.

toyotaken · February 2003

One big benefit of the 8 passenger model is that the middle seat in the middle row will be able to be positioned forward of the two outside seats in the middle row. This positions it closer to the front seats so that if you have a small child, it will be easier to access them without having to actually get up out of the passenger front seat. It will also be removable altogether, so if you wish to have a walk-through to the third seats you can do so.

As for why it is only available on the CE and LE trim levels, at least from those from whom I've asked, they have told me that they wish the XLE and XLE limited models to have the added luxury of the extra room afforded by not "forcing" the 8th seat in, the armrests on the middle row captain's chairs, and the likelihood that families in need of seating for 8 would more likely be looking for a minivan without ALL of the luxury features that the XLE and XLE Limited models will entail.

Hope this helps.

Ken

toyotaken · February 2003

Quote:

Salesmen: They are kept in the dark about new products until they are released. They are price negotiators not product experts. Some are passionate about the cars, but really informed consumers will always know more. And we should, if we are to spend this kind of jack on a vehicle, we should know about it. Salesmen are not product advisors to help determine which is the best vehicle. Im not bashing them, Just the opposite infact.

End Quote:

I would not necessarily agree with that comment entirely. While it is definately my job to enable buyers and the dealership reach a fair medium so that the dealership is moving product and the customer is getting what they want, there are some (agreed, it is not many) sales professionals who are product advisors.

One thing that I almost always ask customers is about what they plan on using the vehicle for, driving habits, equipment they "must" have, etc. I try to fit my customers' needs to the vehicles I show in every instance of working with a customer. Now, again, not being arrogant but just realistic, there are not many sales professionals that I think are as informed about their product(s) as I am (cliffy is one notable exception). I have on several occasions told customers who are looking for something specific that Toyota does not currently provide that they should look at "X vehicle by X manufacturer" and that Toyota really doesn't have what they need. I may be one of the exceptions to the rule, but I would like to think that there are other representatives out there that have the same quality of customer service.

Just my $.02

Ken

redlenses · February 2003

Coolguyky7

You wrote:

GM, Ford, and to a lesser extent Chrysler, can't stay alive in the market with only incentives. It always comes back to whoever has the best product with a reasonable price. Incentives can't take the place for quality and reliability.

I must disagree. The big 3 are still making money with incentives. I believe that a large segment of the market is driven primarily by a lower cost offering. They look at cost as the most important factor and reliability and quality far less. The big 3 also from a total sales standpoint far out produce import brands. Having said that, their will always be a market for those vehicles. All customers have Freewill.

Cheers

sequoiasaurus · February 2003

Here comes the competition!

Ford will rename the Windstar to Freestar next week in Chicago.

http://www.detnews.com/2003/autosinsider/0302/06/b02-78282.htm

Jack
Bowellville Garage
Toyota Minisite

coolguyky7 · February 2003

The Big Three will always have the American flag behind them. However, based on cost, I would say the Sedona is one of the best out there. I'm not that knowledgable about that model, but I'd say it's pretty competitive pricewise.

lachancs · February 2003

Visited the largest Toyota dealer in the DC area this afternoon, in fact the sales mgr said he was #2 in the country. When I said I wanted to talk about the '04 Sienna the sales mgr brought me into his office and said he was curious to know what I had heard about it. I think he was intrigued that I had a folder full of documentation in my hand.

I asked if he had a copy of the regional allocation figures. He said no, that he hadn't received any info at all on the car. In fact he almost fell out of his chair when he saw my copy of the allocation list Jack posted. He then logged in to his corporate Toyota web site to see if he could view any allocation info. He was floored to see that dozens of new Siennas had already been allocated to other dealers in this area. Many of which were XLE & XLE Limited. In fact it listed each model separately by model, color, options, etc. The only thing not listed was price.

It was encouraging to see so many Siennas coming to this area - already having been allocated.

The sales mgr was very polite and asked if he could get back to me on Monday after he returns from his Toyota conference in CA this weekend. He said he has a lot of questions for Toyota mgt., and that he would share this information with me on Monday when he returns.

Also, I asked if he has had many inquiries about the new Sienna. He said I was the first. (This is the second dealer to tell me this) - So what that tells me is that outside this chat group, demand isn't as high as we might think.

folomypath02 · February 2003

lachancs --- I too live in the Washington DC area and interested in the 2004 sienna. Please let me know what information you get from the sales manager on Monday. What dealer was it at? Koons?

Thanks for the information...

toy_pr · February 2003

Hi everyone, I am a new user but I follow the discussion forum from the beginning. I live in Puerto Rico where the Toyota is the first car on sales. If anyone has information regarding the marketing for Puerto Rico, please let me know. Here in Puerto Rico we have many expectations for this van.

Thanks.

bargamon · February 2003

Of course you disagree, your of the distint minority. I feel that many well informed consumers bash salespersons as not knowing as much as they do about the vehicles they shop for.

I was trying to lend a sympathetic voice.

My experience with buying are comical like many persons have experienced. I have had inadvertant racial and eithnic comments thown my way that floored me. One time it happend to be a sales manager, whom made such an [non-permissible content removed] of himself that I got a most amazing deal the next day (last day of month). On prinicipal I would have walked, but the salesman and I had done business before, and we were back 12 months later for my wifes turn for a new car, so I did not want to penalize the salesman for the work he had done and was doing. I did demand an apology or I would complain to his division and owner. The next day the guy shows up at my office with a contract at below cost (real cost, some add on's to the car, some other goodies from the display case for my kids. I'd rather not go into detail, but he did it in front of my wife and kids, and saw my face as if he was from mars, realized he made a big boo boo. Very funny. Salesman got full comish also at my insistance. Turns out, he really is not a bad guy from others whom know him, and he was very sincere about the experience and a learned lesson.

You appear to be professional
and wish you the best of luck in your career.

If anyone else knows you perhaps they could come on and tell us how to contact you. I realize you cannot promote yourself, but can someone else?

backy · February 2003

>>> So what that tells me is that outside this chat group, demand isn't as high as we might think. <<<

Just wait until Toyota's marketing campaign for the new Sienna gets cranked up in March--if it's anything like what they did for the Camry, demand will be high very quickly.

toyotaken · February 2003

Acutally, I didn't take any offense, but thank you for the explanation. I did understand where you were coming from too. I too am disappointed sometimes that people in this profession (and for some of us it is a profession), don't take the time to better educate themselves. And I know that for some, it is focuing their attentions on the areas that they think are most important (for them the sales process) but for me, treating everyone with respect, being knowledgeable about my products and others for that matter, and treating people fairly is more important and has made me more sucessful than any "canned sales approach" that I have found.

I hope everyone here on the board looking to purchase a new sienna gets fair treatment from the people and dealerships they work with.

Ken

coolguyky7 · February 2003

Toyota seems to do very well in some parts of the Caribbean. It's the number one selling brand in Aruba and its ECHO/Yaris is the best selling vehicle there.

danhirsch · February 2003

I am a current owner of a 1998 Sienna XLE (with dash squeak, but no door jiggle (12/98). I love this van since the day I bought it, and in fact, both of my sisters in law have both purchased Sienna since driving our van (although they both have power doors, which we do not have.)

I am looking forward to getting the 2004 Sienna, and really appreciate the posts here, which I have been following for a while. You guys do a great job.

Regarding the AWD/FWD, I grew up in Buffalo, and find that outside that area, or similar places, you really have no need for AWD and it is less economical, both in terms of initial cost and fuel. Therefore, that's not needed. In addition, I can conceive of a need for an eight-seater, since we send our kids to a private school and no bus is available, our Sienna acts as a bus, and there are times where we wish we could squeeze one extra tush into the van.

Speaking of this, is there any info about how wide the interior of the Sienna is? I know that the exterior width has been provided, for those garage people, but what about those of us who squeeze three carseats into the back? In fact, the main reason we will be going to the 2004 is the addition of the third shoulder belt in the back (as opposed to just a lap belt).

To be continued.

danhirsch · February 2003

Now: regarding pricing - I do expect that prices will be somewhat reasonable for the Sienna, and here are my reasons:
1) They need to keep pricing down to compete in this market. They are not competing with Mercedes, Lexus or Porsche.
2) They are looking to sell in volume to justify the new factory. The old Sienna, if I'm not correct, was built in Kentucky on the Camry line. The new Sienna is being built on the Sequoia line, and they want that pumping the goods out at maximum efficiency, and that means dominating the market at quality and price.
3) It's the economy, stupid. We are in a recession and are experiencing deflation in many markets. They want to sell cars.

Now, having said that, I do believe that the dealers will seek MSRP for the Siennas when they first come out. This is pure Supply/demand. In March, they will begin to advertise and people will come in for a test drive, and demand will be high, and people will buy at that price (I will not be one of them.) A similar thing happened with the 2002 Camry - a new model, limited numbers, higher horsepower, beautiful styling = MSRP, for the first few months. Now, you can get one for a couple % over invoice, as every dealer has 30 on the lot...

With regards to the Honda Ody. We have two friends who have it. They both have received major work on their vans, including replacement of one of the trannies, and a rebuild of an engine. I'm not saying that this is normal, but that is my experience. Likewise, my Sister in law bought a Quest when we got the Sienna in late 1998. Within two years, her engine quit altogether, and she finally listened to me and got the Sienna.

I drive a 2001 Camry, my wife the Sienna, my mom drives a 1999 Camry, My father in law drives a 1995 Avalon, my mother in law, a 1998 Avalon, my brother a Corolla, my sister a Corolla, My brother in law a 4 Runner, both sisters in law a Sienna, and my other brother in law a Subaru Forester (when will he learn?) We never even consider the domestics, although they would save $$.

dkrill · February 2003

I'm sure danhirsch doesn't think we need AWD in upstate NY, but maybe he is mistaking it for 4WD, which lately would have been useless here. 4WD is great for large amounts of snow (are you telling me that you couldn't have used AWD or 4WD last year when you got 7 feet of snow over Christmas?) and mudding in the spring/summer/fall, but AWD with the Traction Control certainly would be helpful for the near-zero degree days we've had lately. When the temperature is that low, the salt does not work on the roads and the snow gets packed down and slippery, and black ice is everywhere. I've spun once and almost spun several other times before regaining control, and, No, I am not driving out of control or too fast. Not with my 5-year old kids in the car.

So, I beg to differ: AWD would be invaluable for me.

deepan · February 2003

when you start to move. (as it has 4 potential wheels to start the motion forward as opposed to two) It doesnt do anything to stop which is probably the most important thing. With Traction control available this should satisfy most of the buyers. live in a fairly snow covered area with side streets more or less snow covered but then again the city is pretty good with cleaning it

rtl2 · February 2003

AWD & 4WD have an advantage in straight line acceleration on snow and ice. Skids and spins are mainly caused by a loss of lateral traction when the driver attempts to turn a corner or negotiate a curve. Snow tires on all four wheels is the only viable solution for increasing lateral stability in winter conditions. The same thing goes for braking; AWD or 4WD have no advantage when it comes time to stop.

We get a lot of snow and ice in New Hampshire and it amazes me how people many people with AWD & 4WD use those cheap, factory-installed all season tires year round. With four studded snow tires, I pass many AWD & 4WD vehicles on the interstate in snowy and icy conditions slipping and sliding on crummy tires as I track straight and true with the superior grip provided by my snow tires.

I'd happily drive my FWD sedan or 2WD pickup (both with four studded snow tires) through any winter around Buffalo, Syracuse, or up on the Tug Hill Plateau. AWD or 4WD would be an advantage only if I had to regularly negotiate a steep driveway or private, non-town maintained road.

jraider · February 2003

danhirsch- I too had a '98 Sienna with a dash squeak and a door rattle, I still loved the van. I also transport a lot of kids around. I had three car seats across the back of the Sienna and it was very tight. I now have a Sequoia and the same three car seats fit very easily. My point....Sequoiasarus posted a chart of the new Sienna vs. the Sequoia, I believe that according to the chart the third seat in the new Sienna is wider than the Sequoia's,therefore three car seats should fit very well.

I also had to laugh at your post about your families vehicles. My dad drives an Avalon, my step mom a Camery, my sister a a Tundra, my Mother in law a Rav 4, my sister and brother in law a Sienna and we have a Sequoia and a Camery. My father was the last to convert and he loves his Avalon, now when he travels he only rents Toyotas. They are great vehicles. We've had really good luck with them. We also live in "ford country" there are a lot of people who live near us that work for Ford and get A plan. We have had friends that are bothered that we drive Toyotas and have offered us Fords A or X plan...we said no thanks.

samnoe · February 2003

So you say not all dealers knows all the info you need? You're looking about the new Sienna about 2 months, let me ask you something about the rear seat in the Tacoma?...

Listen. Toyota, for example, has 10-15 models, and every model so many trim-lines (CE, LE, XLE...), and it's almost not possible for a dealer to know all of them with every detail, which is changing year by year. They also need time to update the info of APR also changing monthly. So I understand a dealer who doesn't know everything.

I was many times at dealers asking questions about different models (including GM and Ford) they all had so many mistakes and not true info, I forced myself not to burst out laughing.

Just in my opinion. I don't know much about dealers.

lekn · February 2003

Fact:
- AWD is better than FWD in any slippery condition:
not only in the snow, in rain or wet road condition as well
- AWD not only helps in stand-start situation, it also helps in cornering and handling.
And in very slippery condition, it helps whenever you step on the throttle.

The bottom line is that AWD is the best in all road conditions; at the expense of poorer gas mileage. It is just more stable and more neutral in handling, and yes, it's safer too. Can you get by with FWD - certainly. Can you get by with RWD - certainly, afterall, you still see a lot of BMWs and Mercedes' in the winter, do you not?

Which one would I choose? The best of course, ie AWD. It's a personal choice though. Some may elect not to pay the extra expense, that's OK. There may not be any snow in your area, that's understandable. But saying that it is "not necessary" for everyone is unjustifiable. At most, you may say it is not necessary FOR YOU. Afterall, I have seen claims from M3 drivers saying their cars drive just fine in snow.

The "false sense of security" argument is plain silly. We should all know the limits of our cars and our driving abilities, period. No matter what car you are driving. Should we all drive underpowered cars so that we won't drive so fast? Wouldn't FWD cars gives you false sense of security as well? FWD car can go too fast and understeer in snow; while RWD would remind you to slow down everytime you step on the throttle. By the same argument, shouldn't we all drive RWD instead?

Many of the nay sayers (I said "many", not "all") gives advice based on their experience of FWD cars in winter. And I am sure some of them would change their mind after experiencing the extra benefit of AWD cars in winter, first hand.

My advice: AWD is the best; but you have to judge if you would pay the extra expense. I would definitely go for it instead of, say, a DVD entertainment system. FWD is OK if that's what you have chosen; but it is not the best nor the safest.

seeingsienna · February 2003

I agree with you that it is wrong to ascribe a viewpoint that pertains to everyone.

'It's a personal choice though. Some may elect not to pay the extra expense, that's OK. There may not be any snow in your area, that's understandable. But saying that it is "not necessary" for everyone is unjustifiable. At most, you may say it is not necessary FOR YOU. '

Unfortunately you fall victim to the same type of argument when you say 'We should all know the limits of our cars and our driving abilities, period. No matter what car you are driving.'

Not everyone knows the limits of their cars, their driving abilities, the conditions of the road for that matter. Others simply choose to ignore such safe measures because i.e. they have different risk tolerance or choose to ignore them.

Giving advice is easy and cheap. I would be more interested in your experience with AWD and FWD as you say.

Let me share mine. I have a vehicle with AWD and it definitely handles snow with aplomb and gives me great confidence. I have fallen to overconfidence with the AWD and skidded off track a few times. Luckily without damage.

I also have a FWD mv w/TC and have driven it in snow, much moer cautiously and never gone off track. Both get the same snow tires - Michelin Arctic Alpins. which would you say is 'safer' for me? The AWD is superior to the FWD w/TC in overall traction. However, total safety for me comes up about even because of that difficult to measure personal driving habit we all have. So for me to comment on what is best for you is not possible and would make me foolish to say. I accept your comment as something that challenges me to think about my driving habits as it relates to a cars abiulities and driving conditions

rtl2 · February 2003

This is anectodal evidence, but what vehicles are most often seen in the median or off the side of I-93 up in these parts during the first winter storm? SUVs with the superior traction of AWD. Mindset appears to be that with AWD, I don't need to slow down for cornering or allow for longer stopping distances.

Agreed that we all should know the limits of whatever vehicle we drive. My driving style varies based on whether I'm driving my FWD sedan or 2WD pickup and of course based on road conditions.

What is ridiculous is that so many people have been convinced that they need AWD to safely drive in winter conditions. My hat is off to the marketers that have convinced these folks to needlessly part with additional money. A "need" has been effectively created in the minds of so many potential buyers. AWD is fashionable and people are willing to pay to be part of the herd.

Stock tires are a compromise and the point that I am trying to make is that four winter tires considerably increase traction. Personally I'd rather be driving a RWD or FWD vehicle with four winter tires than AWD with all season tires. AWD with four proper winter tires would of course be the best of all combinations.

richlavoie · February 2003

I think thay have all been seen before, but here they are again, all together:

http://www.carsontoyota.com/html/2004siennaphotos.html

danhirsch · February 2003

When I wrote above, I thought I said that AWD would help those in Western New York. However, in many parts of this Great Country, a good set of Aquatreads would be more beneficial.

I am also aware that the Previa was available in either AWD or 4WD, and wonder where the owners of the Previa stand in this debate, as it would be most relevant.

I presently live in Central NJ, and with the exceptions of days like today (6 inches of snow), we rarely see much packed snow or ice. Of course, on days like today, the schools are closed and the Sienna stays in the garage.

And with regards to other slippery conditions, such as rain, which we used to get a lot of (we had a drought last year), if you hydroplane, you're SOL if you make any sudden movements anyways.

It's really a judgment call in a slight bit of added safety (and maybe a false sense of security) versus price and fuel economy.

bargamon · February 2003

Jack,

You still dreaming.....Oh I laughed hard!

6 pages? In your dreams pal!

You know they don't go over 4 pages! Not for no Mini-Van!

Look forward to seeing what ya got soon!

riskaker11 · February 2003

AWD vs FWD vs RWD:

I have been involved on racing for many years and have spent much time playing with Audis (A4 & Quattro Coupe), VW Golfs and BWM 3s. Tires are for sure the most important factor when it comes to staying on the road but AWD does have advantages. Its common sense AWD does provide better grip (straight or in a corner) as four wheels are biting for traction vs two.

If you get sideways, AWD also provides better odds in powering out of the slide than either awd or fwd. The only disadvantage I can think of is that is does allow (and tempt) you to drive faster in not so great conditions because you feel the better traction that you are getting. The problem - stopping performance is not improved with AWD, only tires, and the faster you are going the more trouble you are going to get in.

AWD for normal driving will help the vehicle remain in control even at low speed in bad conditions. Provides a huge advantage in snow and ice particularly when changing direction (changing lanes), once again due to two extra wheels providing pulling/pushing power.

Fwd & rwd are fine, especially with todays tire and traction control technologies, but awd cannot be beat if you really want that extra comfort.

If you live in a snow belt area, just visit a dealer and test a truck out were you can turn on & off the 4wd. It will give you some sense of the difference.

On the other hand my favourite car was a modified VW golf GTI that was fwd and tricked rear hand break. You could really play with that car. AWD was in a sense too boring with the added traction.

sequoiasaurus · February 2003

I know I thought that was the best part of the dream too...6 pages! What's even more ironic is the mag came in the mail that day too! But no article.

Jack

Oh, only 6 more days!

unc8185 · February 2003

danhirsh wrote:

"1) They need to keep pricing down to compete in this market. They are not competing with Mercedes, Lexus or Porsche."

I do think that there is a potential market for luxury minivans. One reason for the lack of that market is that there are just no true luxury minivans in existence. If Toyota/Lexus, Honda/Acura, BMW, Mercedes, Audi etc. would take the risk and build such a vehicle, a market would develop IMHO.

Sure, there should be affordable minivans. Some want or need such vehicles. I just think there should be a WIDE range of choices.

I think about a Lexus version with increased sound insulation, power passenger seat, luxury rear seating options (similar to the Maybach), an awesome sound system, and the other components of luxury vehicles. I would love such a vehicle. Unfortunately this is not an option. Since SUV's will not work with my wife's wheelchair lift, I will have to buy an existing minivan.

I just hope one manufacturer will take the risk and give this segment a try.

metallocene · February 2003

Hi, just curious if anyone has seen any "max" weights for the new Sienna? I've seen figures on the empty weight but nothing about the recommended maximum payload. Cargo/people capacity seems to be one of the few strengths of the Grand Caravan Sport. Friends bought a 2002 Ody last year and have noticed it "squats" (very little travel left in the suspension and the top of the back wheels tilt toward the body) when loaded with the 4 of them and their camping gear.

As with most of the folk here, we would like to purchase a minivan replacement this summer (for our most loyal and still rust free 88 Corolla (still not sure how I'm going to break the news to it...))

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