Toyota Sienna Future Models

lekn · February 2003

According to the press release:
"...yet its turning radius is reduced by more than three feet, nearly one foot tighter than its closest competitor."

Turning radius
Old Sienna 40ft
Odyssey 37.7ft
Mazda MPV 37.4ft

So 2004 Sienna should be just under 37ft. But I would not be surprised that the AWD model could have slightly larger turning radius.

nofeer · February 2003

I live in eastern KY near Ohio river with rolling hills and no shoulder. asked my friend that has an ODY about AWD and it's need. here he says never a problem even without snow tires and traction control.. one time couldn't get up the driveway left it at the bottom.--once in 2 years. we don't have snow like buffalo, but then again they clear it better than we do. He also had an expedition says AWD not necessary for the less than 3% driving exposure to snow, and loves the extra MPG. So if i get FWD with traction control, and VSC, and SNOW TIRES hey that's what i'm doing. This won't help in severe problems but hey maybe you shouldn't be out and wait 8 hours till the roads are clear. Evene with AWD and less ground clearance you can get stuck, except for chains and studs, not much helps in ice. On speed week tv i saw at the blizzack test grounds a camry with Bosch either anti skid, o\
vsc or such runnning flat out in a circle perfectly composed, i said wow, does camry have that as an option, or just a test bed for Bosch. What i saw told me with todays' techology and snow tires i'd be good to go. That's my plan, XLE + set of snow/ice tires from tirerack ($500-600) and i don't suffer the less MPG. My ody friend says he gets 22-23mpg in day to day driving and loves it.

samnoe · February 2003

Toyota is doing a great job with the upcoming new Sienna. They're offering all options from the other minivans out there. All? Well, most. Honda Ody still offers 240 hp engine, that's an additional 10 hp, which is necessary especially if you will have the extra weight of AWD. I assume Honda's new Ody will have even more power. Honda & Chrysler/Dodge minivans offer 4-wheel disc braked standars on all models (for grand models only, not the short wheelbase), not just on AWD, as Toyota is doing. Chrysler offers a rear load-leveling suspension. Honda 4-wheel independent suspension.

Toyota & Honda minivans were always the top choice b/c of thier smooth powertrain, and quiet ride, and excellent quality. But to say that they had a lot of options, that's not true. Honda never offered, for example, heated mirrors, auto dimming mirrors. They both never offered reverse sensing system, 8 passenger seating (as GM's), memory seats (which is offered by Ford Windstar Limited, Chrysler T&C Limited, and Oldsmobile Silhouette GLS & up). No illuminated controls for power door locks & windows, no power liftgate, small fuel tank (Ford & GM has 26/25 Gallon), though it gives you MUCH better MPG. They never offered dual - or tri - zone climate system. Honda gives you either cassette tape on LX or single CD on the EX version. Honda does not offer fog lamps, but you can get it installed by your dealer for about 600 bucks.

The list goes on and on. No message center and trip computer. windshield wiper de-icer grid. Self Sealing Tires, +++....

Now Toyota is trying hard to copy most features, and combine them all in one quality minivan. But there is still quite a few options missing. And there are a few mistakes. A lot of options offered only in the XLE limited need to be available in the lower-end models, too. Ford Windstar, for example, offered the reverse sensing system from the SE model and up, not just on the Limited. The same is with the auto-dimming mirrors, and the same story is with Chrysler, you can get all the mirror options, fog lamps, and more from LXi model and up. Windshield wiper de-icer is standars on all models, not just on the Limited, as Toyota is doing (source: http://www.bowellville.com/04Siennachart.htm). These are the big mistakes Toyota is doing, and I hope they'll reconsider later in the long run, to offer what consumers are asking. Is there anyone of Toyota headquartes reading this? :-)

One question: at the above Sienna chart, it says: Moonroof will be standard on XLE limited, unavailable on all other models. Then it says: Sunroof will be standard on Limited, and Available on XLE. Is there any mistake? Is there any difference b/w sunroof & moonroof?

Thanks for reading, and sorry if it's too long. Hope I didn't get "OFF TOPIC"...

hansienna · February 2003

Odyssey 240 HP vs Sienna 230 HP? Negligible difference.
    Chrysler 245 Ft Lbs vs Sienna 242 Ft Lbs? Again, Negligible difference.
    Ford & GM 26/25 gallon fuel tank? Noticeable margin of questionable worth. How far can most people go before time to empty their bladder?
    Based on reading data in Edmunds, Toyota web site, Car-Data, etc. it appears that Toyota has included all features of any worth of ALL other brands into one very exciting new minivan.
    I hope dealers do not get greedy and add additional thousands of dollars above MSRP as Honda dealers did with the Odyssey and S2000, VW dealers did with the new Beetle, Chrysler dealers did with the Prowler and PT Cruiser, Dodge dealers did with the Viper, etc....(Poor GM and Ford: When was the last time either had a high demand vehicle that would bring dealers additional profit?)

bargamon · February 2003

Good point someone bought up, get snow tires and save on cost of awd and mpg! With all the electronics most will find the fwd most acceptable. If you live in the mountains, and have lots of bad weather, then AWD is very attractive. Actually, if you live in the mountains, snow is not really bad weather! On Ice, overconfidence by SUV drivers whom have "4WD" slide into trees just like all other vehicles.

Options: I kinda like the choices now available. One reason I strayed from vans was lack of choice and build quality. I look for tight construction, and will look at this one closely. Vans are big boxes and its hard to make them rigid. at 80-85 mph the old sienna scared me. I am not saying one should be driving like that alot, but passing does bring you up there, and jaunts on I-95 avg speed does require good power and BRAKES. The equipment choices are now interesting.

Alot of people are asking questions that will not be know for a few weeks. What is important is that there will always be a few whom what a CE with Laser cruise, but they must bundle options to keep prices down and profits max. Just a reality, they have a good feel for whom buys what, and that why there are 4 models of trim, up from 3. That is pretty good. Honda loses the upper end customer, but sells more vehicles.

richlavoie · February 2003

Jude, I see that many people answered your question. Here are my thoughts. I leave in Canada and leaved in Quebec for 11 years. I know snow. Rear traction make it difficult, but it can be done. Front wheel drive make a car much easiller to handle (once you get the hang of it) and specially, it is so much better to go through a pile of snow over a short distance. AWD or 4wheel drive is useful for 2 things: Off Road or if you want to look good with a 4x4 on the side of your truck. Even with an AWD, you still require GOOD snow tired, period. I have been told by many knowledgeable people that AWD gives you a false sense of security on snow, and specially on ice. If the vehicle goes, it goes. Having only front wheel drive reminds you of the road condition. Advantages of not having AWD: (1) Much cheaper to purchase (2) Better fuel mileage (3) Less repairs on the vehicle.

If the CE is what you want, don't spend a penny over AWD. The CE will be very affordable (based on my reading mainly on this board) and you will already be much more comfortable on a front wheel drive vehicle. Remember: 4 good studded snow tires will keep you on the road, unless you intend to drive in a rally.

dkrill · February 2003

Let's see: A 3 MPG difference between FWD & AWD, over a 20 gallon tank equals 60 miles, or almost a 2.5 gallon bonus for FWD (or alternatively, a 3 gallon debit for AWD). Say you drive, conservatively, 250 miles per week. That means, for FWD, you can go 2 weeks before a refill, and for AWD, you can go 13 days before a refill. Over a year, you would need 26 refills for the FWD, and 28.1 refills for AWD. That is 40 gallons, at $1.50 per gallon, or $60 dollars PER YEAR. That, to me, is an insignificant cost versus some of the safety advantages of the AWD with TCS & VSC. How many years would it take to make the cost savings worthwhile, in terms of gas?

I know that you actually save cost by getting FWD versus AWD, plus the cost savings in terms of fuel efficiency. But what price is there on safety? Even for that 3-5% that you might use it? If it is the difference between an accident or getting control of the vehicle, I think AWD is invaluable ("priceless").

Living in Rochester, NY (it seems a lot of people up here are interested in the Sienna), we have had extremely cold weather lately, so cold that the salt did not work. I know of several times on the highway where AWD would have helped to keep me from fishtailing and slipping on the slick surface (I have a RWD Explorer), and definitely would have helped once when I spun 180dg on a (thankfully) empty road into the snow bank at the side. (I was able to drive right out of it.) So, to me, AWD seems to be a good alternative, and a minimal cost for the safety of me and my family.

As anyone in upstate NY knows, driving along the Thruway (I-90) can get pretty dodgy sometimes, especially in the hills between Syracuse and Albany, and along the shore of Lake Erie (Buffalo to Erie, PA). I drive those routes 6-8 times per year, and I would be glad to have the safety that AWD would add.

----------

Going back to DVDs, sorry to hear about everyone's problems securing a laptop inside the car. At least one of you got a new Mac out of it! (Also good to see that many on this board are Mac-geeks, like me.) So I checked out the CNET comparison of some of the larger screen portables, and for $600-800, you can get an excellent player with large screen (9 inch), two headphone jacks, remote control, and compatability with Audio CDs. This is great for my kids, who like to go to sleep to their favorite CD's, so when we travel, we don't have to rely on our hosts to have a boombox, or haul along our boombox. Just my 2 cents.

Check out the comparison at:

http://electronics.cnet.com/electronics/1,10708,0-6342369-1323-0,- 00.html?id=8406341&id=8406501&id=7997585&id=6150350&a- mp;tag=txt

shabbycat · February 2003

Ken, when you "order" a specific model/color/etc. is it really that a dealer will just contact other dealers to see what they have that might match your "order" or do they really order a specific vehicle from the factory with your specifications? If so, is there an extra charge?

My needs are such that I want a basic van (CE) without a lot of options/packages. My husband has a Subaru Brighton which is (was - they don't offer this basic model any longer) a very bare bones wagon. The same w/my Corolla CE, we don't have a lot of extras - just air conditioning, a radio/casette player and floor mats. As far as the minivan goes, as much as I'd like to dream about an LE w/8 seats and gadgets like power doors, I'd be happy w/airconditioning, heating and a radio (don't even need casette). My husband wants power door locks and windows, but that's about it. I'm not totally familiar with all the options/packages, yet. But what do you think the chances are of getting a minivan without all the extras? My lease is up in October, so I'm not in a rush - I guess that is a good thing *if* I got in early, but if I wait til October it could be bad if all the other "bare bones" CE's were snatched up already?

Thanks!

toyotaken · February 2003

First, because it will take less time, let me answer the question about "ordering" a vehicle. There are acually three different (4 in some instances) ways of getting a vehicle that is not in stock at your local dealership. The first is that they can "dealer-trade" a vehicle with another dealer. If it is a vehicle on the lot at the other dealership, most often, they will trade a vehicle your dealership has in stock with the one at the other dealership. If relatively close, they will have someone drive there in the vehicle the other dealership is getting and drive your vehicle back. If the other dealership doesn't have in on the ground yet, or in other words, it has been allocated to that dealership, they can do an "A or allocation swap". When they do this, they take a vehicle that has been allocated to your local dealership and switch it to the other dealer's inventory and the other dealer switches your vehicle to your dealer's inventory. Basically what happens here is that they still haven't built your vehicle in most instances and they just change the dealership that it will be shippped to.

The next option is to "preference" a vehicle. The best way I can describe this is that they are telling Toyota that "we know you're going to build a vehicle in a particular configuration and color, just put us on the top of the list for dealers to get it. This is based upon "first come first serve" and also the overall allocation within a region. For example, I can try to "preference" a 2wd 4Runner for our dealership, but as they do not allocate any of that model to our region, it is extrordinarily unlikely that we will get one.

The last option and the one of last resort is to actually "factory order" a vehicle. For several reasons, which I won't get into here for interest of space and time, Toyota does not do this as a regular option and will do everything possible to both make this unattractive and difficult to do. Suffice it to say that to do this as a matter of course would reduce the quality of build for their vehicles and they don't wish this to happen. In this method, you can pick and choose your options, with strict limitations and "pray" that they will build your vehicle. This can take up to or longer than 6 months to happen and may never happen at all. So as I said, for the most part forget that this option exists. Also most dealerships will not even attempt this as it is so time-consuming and difficult.

As for the configuration of the CE models coming to the region around Western New York, if you look at page 41 of this board, I posted the way that the first allocation of Sienna's coming to this region are going to be equipped there.

toyotaken · February 2003

Now about the AWD vs. the FWD. First, I would recommend that you drive both versions if you can, in conditions that you will be driving it most often to make that decision. Just like any vehicle, there are certain limitations given for anything you drive. AWD will not mean that you CAN'T get stuck and that you can drive like a maniac. What it does do for you is to give you an added level of traction to get moving, keep moving, and give an added level of handling. AWD or 4WD with bald tires is not going to give you any help either. The biggest thing to remember, is that two identically equipped vehicles, meaning with the same tires, etc. the one with AWD will handle better in reduced traction situations better. As I think all of us have seen, for uneducated or arrogant drivers, this can be dangerous. But for someone that is sensible and keeping in mind both the road conditions and the limitations of the vehicle they are driving and those of the drivers around them, it will help.

The drawbacks to AWD vehicles in general are a few. First, they are more expensive upfront. Secondly, there are more driveline components, so there are more things that have a possibility to break. They typically have a bit more maintanence to do vs. a 2wd vehicle. On the Sienna, you will also have run-flat tires rather than a spare. The run-flat tires are going to be more expensive in all likelyhood vs. traditional tires. At least initially, you may not be able to find snow tires that will fit the vehicle until manufacturers have time to design them.

The benefits are that you have added traction on road conditions that are "marginal". So on snow, ice, or wet roads, you will have some added handling ability. It will make it easier to get moving on those surfaces and to keep control on those surfaces. The example of getting up a steep, snowy driveway or hill is a good example for this.

I hope this helps answer some of your questions and feel free to ask others and I'll be happy to answer those I can. I'll also be happy to tell you "I don't know" to those I don't know the answers to.

Ken

sequoiasaurus · February 2003

Wow, 32 post! Lots to catch up on. Sorry for not posting....Wife's Birthday was 2/1 so we celebrated both Friday & Saturday evening...along with keeping up on the tragic news....My son and I were waiting for the flyover Saturday morning as we normally do when the Shuttle comes our way. We live on the MS Gulf Coast and its always a treat for us to see/hear the landings especially at night. Unforturnately that never happened for us this time.

It's good to back with 'friends'

A few comments/replies:
"we should pass the hat and buy him his Sienna!"
Sounds great to me. Thanks!

toyotab, fanasienna, hansienna-Welcome!

samnoe: If you look at the last page of the fax on my site you'll notice that the XLE has sunroof as optional equipment and the Limited has moonroof as standard. Then on page 3 it show in the package CU for the XLE that a moonroof is optional so it can get confusing.

I'm going to say that they are all moonroof's and not sunroofs. I've alway interpreted sunroof's to be solid (no window) and moonroofs as glass. So a hunch would be to say that on XLE's moonroof is optional and Ltd is standard.

Finally, I realized one important thing missing from the Sienna is an air suspension aka load leveling system. Any comments?

Jack
Bowellville Garage

hschultz · February 2003

#900 of 908 What the new Sienna lacks by samnoe Feb 02, 2003 (10:04 am)

"Honda never offered, for example, heated mirrors, auto dimming mirrors. They both never offered reverse sensing system..."

NOT TRUE. Effective this (MY03) year, Honda offers BOTH a reverse sensing system and a rear-view camera:

Back Up Sensor - 2003 Model
Produces high- and low-pitched beeps that increase in frequency as a vehicle nears an object. Installed in the rear bumper, the kit contains two corner sensors and two rear sensors. Includes attachment kit and all parts needed for installation.

Will work on 2002 model, however the 2002 model isn't marked for where to install them on the bumper.
List Price $629.00 Shipping weight 5 lbs
Our Price $451.20

Rearview Camera - 2003 Model
Availalble only for EX-L Navi model. When car is shifted in reverse, the camera activates and displays a color picture of the view behind the car.
Works on 2003 model only.
List Price $679.00 Shipping weight 5 lbs
Our Price $488.20

"The list goes on and on. No message center and trip computer. windshield wiper de-icer grid. Self Sealing Tires, +++....

Now Toyota is trying hard to copy most features, and combine them all in one quality minivan. But there is still quite a few options missing. And there are a few mistakes. A lot of options offered only in the XLE limited need to be available in the lower-end models, too. Ford Windstar, for example, offered the reverse sensing system from the SE model and up, not just on the Limited. The same is with the auto-dimming mirrors, and the same story is with Chrysler, you can get all the mirror options, fog lamps, and more from LXi model and up. Windshield wiper de-icer is standars on all models, not just on the Limited, as Toyota is doing."

Man, talk about not being able to please ANY of the people ANY of the time. I'm surprised you don't want a cloth-seated CE with tri-zone climate control and Navigation system for $21k.

How about KUDOS to Toyota for raising the bar and offering so many different (4) trim levels, option packages/options/etc. rather than all the raspberries?

Tell you what--if Toyota is selling what you want, buy it, but let's not try to out-smart the Toy marketeers into building an infinite number of vehicle combinations here, ok? This is not Burger King; you don't get to have it your way.

mgfl · February 2003

Looks like you need to get an LE to get privacy glass. Here in FL this is a MUST (I hate peeling tint film!).

bargamon · February 2003

Does awd have any dry condition benefit as better cornering?

I find the ML to be very neutral in most conditions, meaning no bias. If anything, its toward the rear. I do not like the feel of fwd, and perhaps awd reduces that feel and adds some cornering capacity.

sequoiasaurus · February 2003

bargamon- exactly my thoughts also. I've been keeping quite about the AWD issue b/c since I live in a area where AWD/4WD is only used off road. I find that our ML with its AWD system works very good on pavement. As a matter of fact, I am strongly considering getting a Sienna AWD model b/c I do "feel" safer. I goe a sense of driving on rails. I'm like you and don't prefer FWD vehicles and I especially don't like the torque steer of FWD vehicles.

Jack
Bowellville Garage

toyotaken · February 2003

At the limits, AWD will normally give added handling benefits. That is why Audi was banned from F1, they were within the requirements for engine size, but with the benefits of AWD, they won every competition they were in by a VERY large margin. Now, that is not to say that the Sienna is anything like a F1 car, but again, apples to apples, AWD will handle better than either RWD or FWD with the same equipment on the vehicle. As to whether that added benefit is worth the costs associated with it, that is up to each individual consumer.

Ken

nofeer · February 2003

what i plan to do is when i buy a vehicle have the delaer thow in 4 steel wheels,and then i can add my snow tires and store them. my tire dealer installs them free and takes them off free, substitutes their rotate program, so less hassle if they are already mounted and balanced.

How about this, i did this with an accord. If there are limitations of 8 seats and leather have the dealer contact there after market people, all dealers have a place tthat will add leather. I did this with an accord 5 speed, no leather option so i added it, very nice i may add.

backy · February 2003

If you want a CE but must have privacy glass... I added privacy glass (interior film) to my '91 Caravan for about $200. It's not as good as the factory jobs, but it was impossible to tell it was not from the factory and it held up fine for many years. You need to get it from a reputable shop though, because I've seen many poor applications that bubble up and show creases.

fanasienna · February 2003

There have been compelling testimonies to the benefits of AWD, as well as good points made about getting by fine with FWD and good snow tires. Because of the energizer rabbit longevity of my beloved toyota RWD pick-up, I have never even driven a FWD vehicle let alone an AWD. I live in Syracuse, which has a surprising amount of hills, steep ones...icy ones.
I guess I feel more confused now! But that is what great information is supposed to do, initially - because it allows you to really consider all possibilities rather than diving into a decision with one eye open. Thanks again. The extra price for AWD just might be what tips the scales... Didn't the Previa have an AWD option?

shabbycat · February 2003

If you ask for a preference to be put on a vehicle, is this normally done before or after talking detailed financing? Can we talk preliminary financing, get the vehicle moved to the dealership I'm working with - test drive the vehicle, check it all out, then talk detailed financing/sign the papers? Or do I have to sign the papers and agree to a price first?

toyotaken · February 2003

When you preference a vehicle it is normally with a specific set of options. It is also normally based upon the current pricing of the vehicles. That way if pricing increases, adjustments can be made. For Toyota, this is relatively uncommon as they very infrequently have mid-year price increases. So what you normally do is agree upon a set price for a vehicle with a set list of options. I normally get a 1st, 2nd, and 3rd color choices so that there is a "fallback" color if the first color choice is not avialable. So generally, pricing is determined at the time of preferencing.

As for financing, normally they will give you a preliminary estimate. Financing from the banks generally change monthly, although a few banks I know of change weekly, so if it takes longer than till the end of the month, interest rates may be slightly lower or higher than currently avialable. Also, Toyota's programs generally run from month-to-month and are based upon when you take delivery of your new vehicle, not when you order it, so you will be able to take advantage of whatever programs are current at the time you take delivery of your new vehicle when applicable. You will also be able to participate in any rebates that are applicable in that month from the manufacturer. That is if special interest rates and/or rebates are available for the particular vehicle you are getting.

Hope this helps.

Ken

tinyguy · February 2003

I too have struggled over this issue for a long time. I thought about getting rid of my current van with a SUV with 3 rows of seats many many times over. At the end, I realized that AWD is not really necessary for me. I live in Montreal, and we get our share of snow (probably more than most cities in North America). I have Michelin Arctic Alpines on all my cars and I have not been stuck in any situation because of lack of traction.

For AWD Sienna, the following factors work against it as some have already pointed out:

- Higher initial cost (hence higher depreciation cost overall).
- Higher gas mileage.
- Higher maintenance cost.
- Higher repair cost (if you keep it over time).

Depending on the length of ownership, it could cost over $100/month more than FWD version. Again, my personal opinion says I'd rather add more convenience options using the money. I think FWD + good winter tires + traction control (that you can turn off) is more than enough for all situations during the winter of Montreal for the past 15 years, including the famous "ice storm" period where half the city lost the power for over 2 weeks.

windstarloser · February 2003

Ha! I've wanted to say that for a couple of days now . . .

Anyway "fanasienna," I also live in Syracuse. I can't speak from AWD experience, but I've had FWD for the last 20 years on all my vehicles except one, and I've NEVER had a problem getting anywhere--even with our crumbo Windstar. When you get stuck, you just ease on the gas slowly back and forth, and there's no problem. I'm sure AWD is great, but I can't afford the extra cost and maintenance.

I was a sales rep with a territory that extended up north (practically to the Canadian border), south almost to Pennsylvania, and east into the Catskills. Never got stuck! The only car I ever had trouble with was a rear-wheel drive Ford Granada. With FWD, the weight of the engine over the front (driving) wheels gives you superior traction, although the back can slip a bit.

By the way, tragedy of all tragedies, I called the Syracuse Auto Dealers Association and *gasp* they're NOT going to have a new Sienna at the damn auto show this week! Boy what a disappointment!

Anyway, good luck. I guess you and I will be vying for the same Siennas at Burdick and Romano--when they ever get the stupid things in stock.

See ya!

seeingsienna · February 2003

I am new to this forum but have been reading all posts and am extremely amazed at the knowledge out there. Certainly grateful to all, especially Jack and Toyotaken.

I own a subaru and can comment on the AWD. Before placing my snow tires we had a 6-7" storm and although I could get around without getting stuck, it felt unsteady and very slippery. I then placed my Arctin Alpins and noticed significant improvement. I do drive rather hard and the AWD gives an added measure of stability in turns - 'neutral' as others have described. However, I do not drive a minivan in the same fashion and would doubt it to be noticeable for handling. A family member owns DCG AWD to go up mountainous terrain in Adirondacks but this seems like the rare practical need for AWD. to each their own.

I am looking to turn in our woeful windstar by summer or fall and while browsing car magazines online came upon the beautiful sienna '04 and have been seeing red since.

Another question to Jack or Ken: Any word on whether the battery will have a 20 minute disable period if i.e. a reading lamp is left on after turning off ignition. Cannot tell you how many times that windstar feature saved us and the subie was needing a jump.

Thanks in advance.

banddexpress · February 2003

Ok we been waiting for the new toyota van because its suppose to be bigger? Is it going to be as big as the Honda van inside or does anyone know? We also want the van to have a dissapering 3rd row seat that will fold flat in the floor so you don't have to store it front and rear ac and heat pw pl cc cd player prefer does anyone know if the base van will have that equipment or will you have to go for a higher model? Would appreciate any feedback anyone has thanks for your time.
Brent

jctobin · February 2003

Regarding the AWD vs. FWD debate: I have owned a RWD sedan, a FWD wagon, a RWD pickup, a 4WD pickup, and currently drive a FWD sedan (Geo Prizm Lsi, based on the Corolla). Our other car is a AWD Legacy. The RWD pickup was by far the worst in the snow, followed by the RWD sedan. The Prizm is decent in the snow, vastly better than the RWD pickup, and is adequate for its intended use: as a cheap commuting second car for Eastern Massachusetts. It does not have traction control. However, the Subaru is significantly better in the snow. It is particularly confidence inspiring driving up steep slippery pitches.

We regularly drive to my mother's place in Vermont, which is at the top of a 1/2 mile dirt road, much of which is about a 15-20% grade. This is the perfect terrain for AWD, and is more extreme than what 99% of drivers ever encounter. I rarely drive the Prizm to Vt, and only once have had to drive up the hill when it was slippery. It was a bit of a white-knuckle experience, and took me two tries, but I did get up, although just barely. I do remember walking up the hill many times in my RWD days.

FWD w/ traction control and snow tires is probably good enough for all but the most extreme conditions and pitches. That said, when I replace the Geo I plan to go back to AWD, it is just more confidence inspiring when it gets slippery.

People say that AWD doesn't help with ice, but I know that when our driveway, which has a very slight pitch, is icy, that if I stop and then try to start again in the Geo, the front wheels will spin, and I will have to back up and come into the driveway with more momentum to get into the garage. Under the same conditions, I can bring the Legacy to a complete stop and then start up again without the slightest hint of slippage.

About pricing: I'm sure that within the next couple of weeks we will have complete pricing. Maybe even within days. In the meantime I have been guessing. Our target model is the AWD LE w/ the BI package. I'm guessing $29.3K MSRP: LE base 24.9K, dest. chg: .5K, BI package, 1.4K, AWD 2.5K. Could be lower, could be higher...

I'm guessing real word MSRP with options and destination chg. for the CE will be $24.5-25.5K. XLE limited AWD will top out at 38K or so. I'm sure we'll find out for real very soon.

sequoiasaurus · February 2003

I suggest you that you take a gander at the last 100 or so post here and visit kind of our informal FAQ about the 2004 Sienna at http://www.bowell.com/garage or at Sienna Minisite for good information.

The new Sienna is slighter bigger in various forms compared to the Odyssey and the Sienna will come standard with a 60/40 Split & Stow 3rd row seat.

Welcome!

Jack
Bowellville Garage
Toyota Minisite

bargamon · February 2003

Jack,

I guess adding awd would improve the drivabilty quality of the van and make more injoyable. I love a good drivetrain. AWD with the 5speed might not put it on rails, but remove that fwd tourque is a plus.

lekn · February 2003

Myth about higher maintenance cost and higher repair cost. Not sure where this came from. Most AWD systems are maintenance free. Sienna will be using an open differential + traction control. The traction control system is there anyways and the center open differential would be no different than the differential used in your FWD and RWD cars. How often has your differential given you problems? And if the car ages to the stage when you are concerned about the differentials, it probably would be the least of your worries.

So higher initial cost and gas mileage - Yes;
higher repair or maintenance cost - No.

In addition, AWD helps the car's handling. And there are numerous circumstances when AWD would get you out of trouble. For me, avoiding the need to get out and dig the car out of a snow bank, or the ability to go up an icy gradient, or not worrying about getting caught in an unexpected early snow storm before the chance of changing tires is well worth the extra price. Yes, you need to know the limitation of AWD - but it's no different from any type of cars you drive.

Can you get by with FWD + winter tires + traction control? Sure. But just like side guard curtain - is it a must? No. Would I get one if I have the option - absolutely. So if I am offered a choice of AWD, FWD or RWD, it would be AWD without second thoughts. And with the addition of VSC + winter tires, you would have the best technologies to help you in winter driving.

hansienna · February 2003

After looking closely at pricing and options on 2003 Sienna CE, I have a few more questions:
   1. Do you Toyota experts think Toyota can actually sell the 2004 Sienna CE for only $22,900?
   2. Will the 2004 Sienna have a CE EVP with the bargain pricing of the 2003 Sienna CE EVP?
   3. Will the 8 passenger Sienna CE have a bargain pricing for 8 passenger in like manner to captain seating currently available for $200 with EVP in the 2003 Sienna CE? (Probably $500 or so for 8 passenger above base CE).
   4. What is the possibility of Toyota dealers getting greedy like Honda did with Ody and S2000, Chrysler with Prowler and PT Cruiser, etc?
   5. How much is the deposit to get on a waiting list for the new 2004 Sienna at dealerships represented by Jack, Toyotaken, etc. who have provided us with very valuable information?

rainbow24 · February 2003

Talking to Toyota dealers and they are getting excited about the new Sienna. They got sick of Honda making all the money and have said sticker plus will be the way of the new Sienna. At least that was the 3 dealers in Indiana/Kentucky here. They said good luck dealing on them when they can't sell the 2002/2003 Siennas. Why discount a new vehicle everyone wants.

I also have seen the new Sienna in person. I was driving my friend's 2003 Odyssey north on US 41 going towards Princeton. I was first at the light and 2 Toyota Engineers rolled up to the light and kept looking at the Odyssey and pointing. They kept creeping forward, when the light turned green we both punched it and my Odyssey blew the doors off that Sienna, the look on their faces was PRICELESS!!! It was a XLE Sienna and it had a Manufacturer new plate on the back, they turned off on CR550 to go to the plant. I checked it out, it looks small when I saw it come up beside me, and also from the front. Looks like a Camry in the front. Don't know where they park them, but as I went by the plant, didn't see any transports with any vans on them. Some of the view is blocked by dirt hills for privacy. There were none in the front of the plant either.

Anywho, that's my .02 for the day.

BTW, don't expect deals on 04 Siennas, and they say the older Siennas trade in will suffer from the discounts, special finance, rebates, invoice pricing, etc. Looks like Toyota copied Honda in the Dealer status also........STICKER, $500 deposit, lone forms to the right.

rainbow24 · February 2003

I do believe that dealer trading a 2004 will be out of question and impossible. You can't dealer trade Odysseys or Pilots currently. "HOT" vehicles are closely guarded by dealerships and their profit goes down when they dealer trade and send drivers with checks and invoices to other dealers and rack up miles on new vehicles.

I may be way off base, but dealer trading for a 2004 Sienna should be futile and impossible for a few years until it cools down. Dodge/Chrysler will continue to sell vans, because not everyone can afford or want the best vehicles (Odyssey & Sienna). Also there are other options, Kia, Ford, just like the Toyota was an option to the sticker Odyssey for years.

Why didn't they go with 4 wheel disc brakes with ABS & EBD on every model? Does the new Sienna have the passenger airbag off sensor? Please help here.

shabbycat · February 2003

if you look at the Edmunds info area for the 03 Sienna you will find an "incentive" link. It will ask for your zip code because incentives are regional. Click on that to find what incentives are available in your area. They are letting the 03's go below invoice or around invoice (which is lower than MSRP) now. My friend just bought one last night for something like $21,500.

I've been calling and e-mailing dealers around here because the one closet to me told me right off the bat (even though he didn't know the 04's were arriving in March) that there would be an "instant $5,000 markup". Well, he lost my business right there. I have talked (on the phone) to a very nice dealer a little bit further away and I explained how offput I was by my local dealer. He told me that some dealerships do markups like that but his doesn't. We'll have to see what happens when the vans really arrive. However, I live in a large urban area with at least 20 dealers within 100 miles and I'm not in a hurry to get a minivan, so I won't be sitting in the dealership with my checkbook open and my tongue hanging out - OK, maybe I will but I hope I won't be! It's a waiting game for now.

jenr1 · February 2003

jctobin - I am from eastern Mass also, I was wondering if you have been in touch with any dealers about the 04 Sienna and what your experience has been with them.

rainbow24 · February 2003

Unless I am way totally off base here, there will be no deals on 2004 Siennas for a long time (2-3 years). The Honda Odyssey was that way since 1999 on the new body style. Now you can find 1-2 thousand off sticker. The new Sienna will be marked up over sticker and sticker for a while. If yoy have bought 10 Toyotas from the same dealer for the past decade, you may get 500-1000 off sticker. Just wait until March and see what happens, I want to drive one. They did a great job by copying other minivans out there and will sell well at sticker like others.

papabrody · February 2003

As I impatiently wait for the arrival of '04 Sienna I have been having a few second thoughts:

1) AWD, one of the reasons we held out this long (not wanting another D/C vehicle ever), but some posts here have made me feel more secure about going with FWD and VSC.

2) Navigation system. If it is true that these will not be widely available until summer, it is a bummer. This is non-negotiable to us (as I suspect to others)

3) Pricing. I know everything is speculative, but if a loaded XLE approaches 35-40K MSRP and the dealers expect to mark this up, it is at a point that I would go back and evaluate alternatives. I really love Toyota's and Lexus and rue the day I bought my Grand Cherokee instead of the RX300, but I can't justify paying 7k plus for a Sienna over an Odyssey which is still a great van.

BTW, the previous posts discussing using an external DVD player had me thinking of one other benefit, we could bring it along on plane trips (anything to mellow the kids out is worth the price). I still would prefer to have a flip down built in system. The company that would build an aftermarkt flip down system that could be removed and taken with you would make a mint IMO.

quantus · February 2003

I think Rainbow is a bit misinformed. I have no idea how well it will work for a Toyota Dealer with the new Sienna (Toyotaken and Jack can probably answer that best), but our Honda dealer has been doing dealer trades of both the Odyssey and the Pilot for quite awhile now. We were looking at both vehicles, and were aware of several swaps our dealer did (so that we could come look at the vehicles).

toyotaken · February 2003

Well, rainbow has reared his ugly head again. First for those who do not know this, rainbow works for honda, and has had some wonderful things to add to the discusssion. (that was a bit sarcastic if you couldn't tell). As such, he really has no idea of what Toyota does in terms of distribution, or how Toyota dealerships work. First of all, dealers trade or don't trade at their discression. That being said, it is in their own best interest to be open with other local dealerships because for the most part, it is impossible to keep every configuration and color of vehicle on your own lot. So if you have a customer who is looking for something you don't have avaialable right now, if you're trading with other dealers, you can make that deal. If you're not, then you can't. So assuming that a vehicle is not sold and they can get something equivelant back, most dealers will be willing to trade a vehicle.

Ken

toyotaken · February 2003

As stated earlier, there is no release of official pricing for options or other models other than the base CE. I will post whatever pricing information I can get as I get it, though.

As for deposits for incoming vehicles, each dealership sets its own policy. Some may be willing to just have a signed buyer's order (not likely), while others would require a hefty deposit. So the best way to go about finding this out is to contact that particular dealership.

Ken

dudleyr · February 2003

You hear people say how invaluable AWD is and how they would not trust their family to anything else, yet many of those same people do not put snow tires on their car in the winter (some do - and they are indeed kings of the proverbial hill).

FWD with traction control and snow tires is far better than AWD and standard all season tires. AWD only helps for accelerating, whereas snow tires help with acceleration, and braking (as well as turning). The most important thing your vehicle can do to save your life is to stop. Climbing up a steep mountainside may be what sells AWD, but coming back down is much more dangerous, and AWD does nothing to help you there.

If you really need AWD just to get around you should not be driving on the roads, and in fact where I live (SD) the roads always close well before I start to have any trouble with FWD and snow tires. The car I usually drive is a little Integra that weighs about 1,800 lbs less than the Sienna (weight helps with traction) and does not have traction control or much ground clearance. A Sienna with FWD and snows will do fine, and traction control will make it even better still.

dfc101a · February 2003

First, thanks to the great info by all. I have been lurking on these boards since I was trying to find out the pre-release info on the 1999 Odyssey and then the 2001 Acura MDX. Ended up with both in their fist month of release. Hopefully our overzealous moderator won't remove this post due to the off topic lead in ;-)

On the Sienna pricing, the Odyssey had much different market conditions than the Sienna will have. The Odyssey was the lone import van that could compete size wise while raising the bar in several areas. At the time, the only new entry was the Windstar - which has failed on many levels. Over the years, little has come out to challenge the Odyssey.

The market conditions the Sienna will enter are much different with substantial competition. All new in the next 8 months - 04 Sienna, 04 Ford Windstar, 04 Mercury Monterey, 04 Nissan Quest, 04 Odyssey, not to mention the crossover's. While I am very interested in the new Sienna, the supply and demand equation should be much more favorable this summer/fall. Even if the posters here might cringe at the mention of the Quest or Ford products, those new product introductions will help balance demand. MSRP+ for several years? Doubtful.

IMO, if you can wait until fall, the options and demand conditions should be favorable - even on the Sienna.

DC

jctobin · February 2003

I haven't been in contact w/ any dealers, figured it wasn't going to be doing me any good and I can get better info here. I'll play it by ear before contacting dealers.

BTW, I could have sworn I saw one of the 2004 Quests driving the other way in Vt. this weekend, but sorry, didn't stop and turn around to check it out. Didn't get a good enough look at it to be sure, but it looked big and sure looked like it had those bizarro headlights and front grill.

Hmmm... rainbow, isn't he the one that passed on that rumor about the AWD Siennas being delayed? The same model that is clearly shown on the first delivery sheets that Ken and Jack have posted?

Karen_S · February 2003

Off topic posts in a "hot" discussion most often tend to disrupt and cause confusion. Sometimes this is done intentionally by unscrupulous souls seeking some sort of entertainment or possible gain from the chaos that may ensue.

When the commments get personal...I step in. And that is what this off topic post is all about. Please ignore any seemingly outrageous claims/comments and avoid posting personal jabs. Please do continue discussing the 2004 Sienna.

Thanks for your cooperation. If you have any questions/concerns, please direct them to me via email.

wirelessman · February 2003

AWD is needed in some areas of the country- my wife works about 20 miles south of Buffalo, and she can leave for work when it is sunny & by the time she gets to work there's a full blown blizzard, the weather service doesn't always get it right around here!
I think that the 04 Sienna will answer a lot of prayers for those of us who have wives & family that drive through these "Snow belts". As far as "staying off the roads" around Buffalo, that's simply not an option. The new Sienna will be the favorite among a lot of soccer moms!

fanasienna · February 2003

I am once again thankful for this great debate of pros and cons regarding AWD vs. FWD. I am learning alot here. And, windstarloser, I have a "secret" dealership that I'm planning on going to...so I won't steal your sienna!

Has anyone ever checked out the Consumer Reports "New Car Price Report"? I ordered one last year (~$12) for the '02 sienna and found it very helpful. You can order one by calling 800-205-2445 or order online at ConsumerReports.org/carprices/new6
It provides info on the "real" prices of everything from MSRP, dealer invoice price, Consumer Reports wholesale price (which is determined by subtracting dealer incentive $ and dealer holdback $ from dealer invoice price - and Consumer Reports suggests that you start negotiating from that total). It also provides the invoice and MSRP costs of all options and option packages, and explains what those mysterious dealer incentives and dealer holdback are, if there are any in effect at the moment, and what they're worth. It also provides lots of other data, like safety statistics, etc. In short (which as you can tell is not my forte..), it gives pricing information that a dealer NEVER would. When I called a few dealers in my vicinity last year to discus buying an '02sienna, the lies they told were jaw dropping! When I posed some of the info that I learned from that report (of course without telling them my source, but rather pitting one dealer against another....2 can play, right?!), they stumbled and limped toward a better price, or said some obviously flagrant additional lie. I realize that the Consumer Report report may have some flaws and even misinformation, but it at least arms you with something; some sort of water pistol as you approach the 4 alarm fire of the dealer. Toyotaken, you seem to be a saint among them. I just might show up in Buffalo sometime this summer. Thank heavens for my toyota pickup; it is still going strong (even though I leave a little piece of its deteriorating body wherever I park..)(at least I never get lost..) and I will be able to hold out until I get the blessed '04 sienna that I want, at a semi-decent and fair price , I HOPE.

overtime1 · February 2003

Hello everyone. I was wondering if anyone knows what the towing capacity will be for the '04 Sienna. Thanks!

OT

sequoiasaurus · February 2003

Are you sure you're not my twin brother?

"Personally I have owned more hondas than Toyotas, and love my Honda Mower, Power washer, and generator. Best motors."

Same here...I've owned three Accords, still own a Honda mower and generator! The Sequoia was my first Toyota.

overtime-check out the faxed pages on my site and you'll find all the info there.

Jack
Bowellville Garage
Toyota Minisite

dfc101a · February 2003

Karen, perhaps you can add to the discussion. Do you know when the press quiet period is going to be lifted by Toyota on the 04 Sienna? I'm sure Edmunds has a first drive article all cued up to post, but can't post or publish until ???? Any idea?

overtime1 · February 2003

Hello everyone. I was wondering if anyone knows what the towing capacity will be for the '04 Sienna. Thanks!

OT

Karen_S · February 2003

Unfortunately, the hosts are not informed in advance of any breaking news or reviews that the editorial team may/may not be holding. We have to wait like everyone else till it is published.

Sorry I can't be more helpful.

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